Quitting Dentistry for Medicine?

[schmoob]

Northeast. 25 mins outside of a major city. Do a little bit of everything. Molar endo, surgical ext, bone grafting, implant placement, Invisalign.

Sounds like you take your work and your debt very seriously. That’s awesome. You sound like an excellent doctor.

Any plans to open your own office and be the next gazillionaire like @TanMan ???

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

Sounds like you take your work and your debt very seriously. That’s awesome. You sound like an excellent doctor.

Any plans to open your own office and be the next gazillionaire like @TanMan ???

Thanks @schmoob! Definitely have big plans for the future! I don’t think anybody can be @TanMan, but if I can be even half the dentist he is, I’ll have done well.

 

[Splenda88]

Tough call.

You can have a good career doing either.

I would do medicine but I am bias as a physician (hospitalist). The training in medicine is tough (especially surgical specialties) and there is no way around that. After that, you can find a job where you work as much as you like within reason for the most part. I know surgeons/cardiologists etc.. who work part time.

I also thought about dentistry before going into medicine. As of now (~4 years practicing), I can say I have no regret for choosing medicine. I have a good job working 7 days on and 7 days off (84 hrs every other week on paper but really spend 60-64 hrs in the hospital) making 350k/yr. Usually work a little bit extra, so income is always > 400k every year. Lifestyle is great.

I can request time off whenever I want to. In all honesty, I never though I was going to enjoy that kind of flexibility in medicine. For instance, there are a few people at my place who work 1 week on and 3 weeks off for 175k/yr with benefits. One of them use his 3 weeks off to do direct primary care for cash (take no insurance).

I think both professions are good. You can also have a good lifestyle in medicine despite what you see/read on SDN. In all honesty, physicians tend to scare people from going into medicine because we are a bunch of complainers.

 

[Splenda88]

Im not saying that anesthesiology is not a great career. It is. But he spent a long time doing residency getting there and when it comes time to retire he won’t have a practice to sell for millions of dollars.

I graduated dental school with $250k in loans. Am making north of $400k per year as an associate while still in my 20s. I have a longer investment timeline to work in my favor than the physician who spent years in residency and fellowship. You mention no practice debt. Well, at the end of your career you sell that practice and it is a big lump sum towards your retirement. Dentistry does have its pros.

Both pathways can be rewarding.

Is it better to start making 200-300k per year at the age of 27 vs. 500-650k/yr at the age of 31? That is what anesthesiologist make these days. Who knows how long that gravy train will last?

Flexibility is a wash because you can find flexibility in both professions. You will be rich doing either on IMO.

Fun fact, I found myself staying at the same hotel in London that Jamie Fox stayed a few weeks prior. The only difference I stayed in the 2 BR apartment that is $700-1500/night. He stayed at the penthouse that is 5-10k per night depending on the season. 🙂

 

[JacquesVallee]

Is it better to start working at 27 making 200-300k per year

To be clear, very very few dentists who are 27 are making 200-300k. Reality is closer to 120-140k.

 

[Splenda88]

To be clear, very very few dentists who are 27 are making 200-300k. Reality is closer to 120-140k.

Why would someone get into 300k+ debt to make what NP/PA make at my place?

My tuition in med school was ~35k/yr and I thought I was committing financial suicide.

 

[unknown111]

To be clear, very very few dentists who are 27 are making 200-300k. Reality is closer to 120-140k.

180-200K is very possible for a motivated first year grad doing 6-7 days in the suburb/city.

Usually the # days will taper down as you build more experience.

2-3 years out, likelihood of 200-250k on 5 days/week is very high.

 

[JacquesVallee]

180-200K is very possible for a motivated first year grad doing 6-7 days in the suburb/city.

But this is an excellent way to get burnt out and hate dentistry. I cannot FATHOM ever working this job 7 days a week. I ended up moving to the middle of nowhere working four days a week making about 200k. Had I done five days a week I probably could have been near 250k but I didn't need the extra money, and I found my back really hurting after four days. My friends who live in civilization are all still around 130-140k, some still less than that. Cities now are so saturated it's just hard to get the volume of patients to really produce as an associate.

 

[somefuturedoc]

But this is an excellent way to get burnt out and hate dentistry. I cannot FATHOM ever working this job 7 days a week. I ended up moving to the middle of nowhere working four days a week making about 200k. Had I done five days a week I probably could have been near 250k but I didn't need the extra money, and I found my back really hurting after four days. My friends who live in civilization are all still around 130-140k, some still less than that. Cities now are so saturated it's just hard to get the volume of patients to really produce as an associate.

People scoff at the idea of working 6-7 days a week as a new dentist, but you realize to become a physician like everyone is recommending, you have to work 6-7 days per week while in residency? Feels ironic…

 

[JacquesVallee]

People scoff at the idea of working 6-7 days a week as a new dentist, but you realize to become a physician like everyone is recommending, you have to work 6-7 days per week while in residency? Feels ironic…

That's 100% fair, especially with regards to surgical residencies. I have no idea how general surgery residents do it. I just know with general dentistry being hunched over working in milimeters for hours a day on awake patients is so physically demanding I couldn't physically do it more than 5 days a week. I seriously already have back pain. With regards to residencies like IM, I'd imagine it's not physically the same as dentistry. Perhaps @Splenda88 could shed light on how physically demanding medical residency was.

 

[slowthai]

People scoff at the idea of working 6-7 days a week as a new dentist, but you realize to become a physician like everyone is recommending, you have to work 6-7 days per week while in residency? Feels ironic…

It's about 6 days per week working 70-80 hrs as well. I'm psych, so we don't work that much, but that's not most of medicine.

 

[somefuturedoc]

It's about 6 days per week working 70-80 hrs as well. I'm psych, so we don't work that much, but that's not most of medicine.

Yup. In OMFS we rotate on a bunch of services. I’ve done 6 days a week on every rotation except anesthesia. But even anesthesia was still 60hrs a week.

 

[somefuturedoc]

That's 100% fair, especially with regards to surgical residencies. I have no idea how general surgery residents do it. I just know with general dentistry being hunched over working in milimeters for hours a day on awake patients is so physically demanding I couldn't physically do it more than 5 days a week. I seriously already have back pain. With regards to residencies like IM, I'd imagine it's not physically the same as dentistry. Perhaps @Splenda88 could shed light on how physically demanding medical residency was.

My only point is it’s not unreasonable for general dentists to work more (to get a higher income) when starting your career, when that’s what the rest of medicine universally has to do. But I’m not a general dentist so maybe my perspective is skewed

 

[yappy]

That's 100% fair, especially with regards to surgical residencies. I have no idea how general surgery residents do it. I just know with general dentistry being hunched over working in milimeters for hours a day on awake patients is so physically demanding I couldn't physically do it more than 5 days a week. I seriously already have back pain. With regards to residencies like IM, I'd imagine it's not physically the same as dentistry. Perhaps @Splenda88 could shed light on how physically demanding medical residency was.

Many surgical specialties don’t operate every day they’re working. Most have time in clinic, floor time, or their residency is structured such that they have much less responsibility than when they are fully credentialed. It’s not an accurate comparison.

Dentistry is hard intensive work with minimal downtime during the day. I often think it would be nice if our schedule was set up like other procedural fields where we do “clinic” aka exams exclusively and then have uninterrupted treatment days but the hygiene-exam model doesn’t allow for that.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

Is it better to start making 200-300k per year at the age of 27 vs. 500-650k/yr at the age of 31? That is what anesthesiologist make these days. Who knows how long that gravy train will last?

I think the beauty of dentistry is you can start making $200-300k per year at the age of 26 and then buy a practice and make $500-$650k/yr at the age of 31 as a business owner. You’re not tied to that $200-300k income level for life.

Also, to answer this question, let’s say you are making $200-300k per year from the age of 26 until 31. If you’re a disciplined investor and are able to invest $100k per year or $8,333 per month, assuming a 10% growth rate, by the time you’re 31 you’ll have $645,000 invested. If the dentist making $200-300k per year never invests another penny, by the time they retire at 65 that $645,000 grows to $19 million (assuming the same 10% growth rate which is the historical average of the s&p500). Those early years with a decent income can be very significant if someone is a disciplined investor. Most people, unfortunately, are not though and they’ll blow that money on a Mercedes.

 

[Splenda88]

That's 100% fair, especially with regards to surgical residencies. I have no idea how general surgery residents do it. I just know with general dentistry being hunched over working in milimeters for hours a day on awake patients is so physically demanding I couldn't physically do it more than 5 days a week. I seriously already have back pain. With regards to residencies like IM, I'd imagine it's not physically the same as dentistry. Perhaps @Splenda88 could shed light on how physically demanding medical residency was.

Not physically demanding but it's a lot hours (65-70 hrs/wk on average depending of the program).

 

[Splenda88]

Many surgical specialties don’t operate every day they’re working. Most have time in clinic, floor time, or their residency is structured such that they have much less responsibility than when they are fully credentialed. It’s not an accurate comparison.

Dentistry is hard intensive work with minimal downtime during the day. I often think it would be nice if our schedule was set up like other procedural fields where we do “clinic” aka exams exclusively and then have uninterrupted treatment days but the hygiene-exam model doesn’t allow for that.

That is the reason I like my job because I have a lot of downtime as a hospitalist. For instance, today I watched an entire soccer game in the doctor's lounge, ate lunch and was out of the hospital by 1:10 pm. Just have to answer to pesky nurse messages/calls until 7pm.

 

[juniordentist]

I think the beauty of dentistry is you can start making $200-300k per year at the age of 26 and then buy a practice and make $500-$650k/yr at the age of 31 as a business owner. You’re not tied to that $200-300k income level for life.

Also, to answer this question, let’s say you are making $200-300k per year from the age of 26 until 31. If you’re a disciplined investor and are able to invest $100k per year or $8,333 per month, assuming a 10% growth rate, by the time you’re 31 you’ll have $645,000 invested. If the dentist making $200-300k per year never invests another penny, by the time they retire at 65 that $645,000 grows to $19 million (assuming the same 10% growth rate which is the historical average of the s&p500). Those early years with a decent income can be very significant if someone is a disciplined investor. Most people, unfortunately, are not though and they’ll blow that money on a Mercedes.

By that logic, it would make sense to stay as an associate your whole career. If you're headed towards 19 million at 31 years old, that is a position where time is more important than money. And owning a practice is much more time intensive than being an associate. I'm 10 years out of dental school, and the common thing I've noticed about my age group is that time is starting to become more important than earnings. People my age want to work less, deal with less management BS, and reduce work related stress. I've recently become much more aware of my age and health and not wanting to commit too much of my energy towards work. Money still matters to me, but in 10 more years I can't see any logic to doing more than 3 days a week, which is much easier as an associate than practice owner. If I had set myself up better in my early years like in your scenario I would be doing 3 days a week now and definitely prefer to be associate than owner

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

By that logic, it would make sense to stay as an associate your whole career. If you're headed towards 19 million at 31 years old, that is a position where time is more important than money. And owning a practice is much more time intensive than being an associate. I'm 10 years out of dental school, and the common thing I've noticed about my age group is that time is starting to become more important than earnings. People my age want to work less, deal with less management BS, and reduce work related stress. I've recently become much more aware of my age and health and not wanting to commit too much of my energy towards work. Money still matters to me, but in 10 more years I can't see any logic to doing more than 3 days a week, which is much easier as an associate than practice owner. If I had set myself up better in my early years like in your scenario I would be doing 3 days a week now and definitely prefer to be associate than owner

It’s a good point. If you can work for 15-20 years making good money as an associate and have less stress, there is a lot to be said for that. Then you can scale back as you please without worrying about keeping the office production high for when you sell.

I think it all just depends on what your career ambitions are and how much money is considered “enough” for you. There’s no right path.

 

[2TH MVR]

Also, to answer this question, let’s say you are making $200-300k per year from the age of 26 until 31. If you’re a disciplined investor and are able to invest $100k per year or $8,333 per month, assuming a 10% growth rate, by the time you’re 31 you’ll have $645,000 invested. If the dentist making $200-300k per year never invests another penny, by the time they retire at 65 that $645,000 grows to $19 million (assuming the same 10% growth rate which is the historical average of the s&p500). Those early years with a decent income can be very significant if someone is a disciplined investor. Most people, unfortunately, are not though and they’ll blow that money on a Mercedes.

I agree with you in principle. Doing it is a challenge. If you have a family (wife, couple of kids, dogs, aging parents, etc. etc.) the expenses can be enormous and somewhat unpredictable. Think housing costs, college, health issues, cars for the kids, food, utilities, family vacations, etc. etc. etc. The list is endless. Then add "fun" things such as nice cars, boats, vacation homes, etc, etc. Of course these "material items" are not necessary, but ...... the memories with these "material items" are priceless. Memories I spent with my children and wife. I would not trade these "life" experiences for anything.

Now. The key is to have balance. Balance in investing for the future and living a fullfilling life in the present. No one wants to be broke during retirement. But I also want to enjoy my golden years while I still can. No one can predict your eventual demise.

The old saying is you don't want to be the richest guy in the cemetary.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

I agree with you in principle. Doing it is a challenge. If you have a family (wife, couple of kids, dogs, aging parents, etc. etc.) the expenses can be enormous and somewhat unpredictable. Think housing costs, college, health issues, cars for the kids, food, utilities, family vacations, etc. etc. etc. The list is endless. Then add "fun" things such as nice cars, boats, vacation homes, etc, etc. Of course these "material items" are not necessary, but ...... the memories with these "material items" are priceless. Memories I spent with my children and wife. I would not trade these "life" experiences for anything.

Now. The key is to have balance. Balance in investing for the future and living a fullfilling life in the present. No one wants to be broke during retirement. But I also want to enjoy my golden years while I still can. No one can predict your eventual demise.

The old saying is you don't want to be the richest guy in the cemetary.

You make really good points and I’m in agreement with everything you’re saying. The beauty of this is you’re making the investments until you’re 31. The $19 million assumes you never invest another penny again after 31. That leaves plenty of money for the house, kids, and life expenses.

 

[clarkbar]

why are you listening to people who have yet to graduate? take that DO acceptance

DO and med school is easier than it was 20 years ago, but if you don't have a passion, and the OP doesn't have a ride or die obsession, medical training will kill you as a person, literally a burnt out husk of a boy.
I have much less exposure to dental training, but it's only four years. I suppose the debt problem would be a great deciding factor.

 

[clarkbar]

That is the reason I like my job because I have a lot of downtime as a hospitalist. For instance, today I watched an entire soccer game in the doctor's lounge, ate lunch and was out of the hospital by 1:10 pm. Just have to answer to pesky nurse messages/calls until 7pm.

how is that possible?

 

[Splenda88]

how is that possible?

I had ~15 patients and I knew almost all of them since I have been taking care of them for a couple of days already. Some of the patients have routine stuff to treat and a few are just waiting to be placed at a nursing home or a rehab facility.

My place has long and short call days for hospitalists. We can leave early on short call days (3 out of 7 days), but on long call days , we have to stay in the hospital until 6 pm.

My job is somewhat flexible. For instance, I left the hospital today for 1.5 hrs to run some errands and then went back to admit a patient even if I was long call.

Some of the hospitalists would leave to do thing such as go shopping, watching their kids soccer games, go to a beauty salon and come back even if they are on long call. It's hard to find a job in medicine that is THAT flexible.

 

[Ascent23510]

I guess I am curious. To the dentists out there, how much free time do you have? Like can you take 2 weeks off comfortably or are you under pressure to keep producing continuously?

The way these people I spoke made it out to seem was that they have a lot of free time as a dentist. Of course there is that 4 day work week but outside of work do you guys find yourselves being able to take a lot of free time off or do you feel like there’s not a lot of flexibility.

Just wanna get a better understanding because the people I shadowed were straight up chilling. They were all older dentists who seemed like they had so much free time.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

I guess I am curious. To the dentists out there, how much free time do you have? Like can you take 2 weeks off comfortably or are you under pressure to keep producing continuously?

The way these people I spoke made it out to seem was that they have a lot of free time as a dentist. Of course there is that 4 day work week but outside of work do you guys find yourselves being able to take a lot of free time off or do you feel like there’s not a lot of flexibility.

Just wanna get a better understanding because the people I shadowed were straight up chilling. They were all older dentists who seemed like they had so much free time.

Im an associate dentist in my 20s. On one hand you only get paid when you work, but on the other hand, I make great money and have been able to have time off this spring to go on a cruise, go to Taiwan, and go to Hawaii. I saved up the money to do so without having to be worried about not producing for the weeks I am away.

Once you are an owner with an associate you can take off and continue to make some money while you’re away. If the thought of not making any money while you’re away is going to eat at you then you’ll never be able to step away. It’s important to have a healthy balance.

 

[TanMan]

Sounds like you take your work and your debt very seriously. That’s awesome. You sound like an excellent doctor.

Any plans to open your own office and be the next gazillionaire like @TanMan ???

Haha, I'm just gonna lurk around a little more.

Edit:
I think you guys are too focused on the money and not about experiencing life while you're still young. Doing crazy $hit in your 20s and early 30s is totally different than in your 40s+. Your youth will not always be there, and maximizing wealth doesn't equate to maximizing happiness. Go spend time with your family, go buy the things that you can enjoy when you're still young and not when you are 60+ (looking at the midlife crisis ferrari guy in his 60s trying to attract college girls), and achieve that work-life balance. I still think dentistry gives you that flexibility v. medicine. Besides, in one of my businesses, I just hire medical directors for a nominal fee and I don't even have to have an MD/DO. That's how easy it is to get an MD/DO's services without being one.

 

[Ascent23510]

Haha, I'm just gonna lurk around a little more.

Edit:
I think you guys are too focused on the money and not about experiencing life while you're still young. Doing crazy $hit in your 20s and early 30s is totally different than in your 40s+. Your youth will not always be there, and maximizing wealth doesn't equate to maximizing happiness. Go spend time with your family, go buy the things that you can enjoy when you're still young and not when you are 60+ (looking at the midlife crisis ferrari guy in his 60s trying to attract college girls), and achieve that work-life balance. I still think dentistry gives you that flexibility v. medicine. Besides, in one of my businesses, I just hire medical directors for a nominal fee and I don't even have to have an MD/DO. That's how easy it is to get an MD/DO's services without being one.

What kind of business do you run outside of your own practice?

 

[TanMan]

What kind of business do you run outside of your own practice?

Medspas/Weight loss clinics, import/export, and a bunch of other things