Quitting Dentistry for Medicine?

[schmoob]

Northeast. 25 mins outside of a major city. Do a little bit of everything. Molar endo, surgical ext, bone grafting, implant placement, Invisalign.

Sounds like you take your work and your debt very seriously. That’s awesome. You sound like an excellent doctor.

Any plans to open your own office and be the next gazillionaire like @TanMan ???

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[Pablo Sanchez]

Sounds like you take your work and your debt very seriously. That’s awesome. You sound like an excellent doctor.

Any plans to open your own office and be the next gazillionaire like @TanMan ???

Thanks @schmoob! Definitely have big plans for the future! I don’t think anybody can be @TanMan, but if I can be even half the dentist he is, I’ll have done well.

 

[Splenda88]

Tough call.

You can have a good career doing either.

I would do medicine but I am bias as a physician (hospitalist). The training in medicine is tough (especially surgical specialties) and there is no way around that. After that, you can find a job where you work as much as you like within reason for the most part. I know surgeons/cardiologists etc.. who work part time.

I also thought about dentistry before going into medicine. As of now (~4 years practicing), I can say I have no regret for choosing medicine. I have a good job working 7 days on and 7 days off (84 hrs every other week on paper but really spend 60-64 hrs in the hospital) making 350k/yr. Usually work a little bit extra, so income is always > 400k every year. Lifestyle is great.

I can request time off whenever I want to. In all honesty, I never though I was going to enjoy that kind of flexibility in medicine. For instance, there are a few people at my place who work 1 week on and 3 weeks off for 175k/yr with benefits. One of them use his 3 weeks off to do direct primary care for cash (take no insurance).

I think both professions are good. You can also have a good lifestyle in medicine despite what you see/read on SDN. In all honesty, physicians tend to scare people from going into medicine because we are a bunch of complainers.

 

[Splenda88]

Im not saying that anesthesiology is not a great career. It is. But he spent a long time doing residency getting there and when it comes time to retire he won’t have a practice to sell for millions of dollars.

I graduated dental school with $250k in loans. Am making north of $400k per year as an associate while still in my 20s. I have a longer investment timeline to work in my favor than the physician who spent years in residency and fellowship. You mention no practice debt. Well, at the end of your career you sell that practice and it is a big lump sum towards your retirement. Dentistry does have its pros.

Both pathways can be rewarding.

Is it better to start making 200-300k per year at the age of 27 vs. 500-650k/yr at the age of 31? That is what anesthesiologist make these days. Who knows how long that gravy train will last?

Flexibility is a wash because you can find flexibility in both professions. You will be rich doing either on IMO.

Fun fact, I found myself staying at the same hotel in London that Jamie Fox stayed a few weeks prior. The only difference I stayed in the 2 BR apartment that is $700-1500/night. He stayed at the penthouse that is 5-10k per night depending on the season. 🙂

 

[JacquesVallee]

Is it better to start working at 27 making 200-300k per year

To be clear, very very few dentists who are 27 are making 200-300k. Reality is closer to 120-140k.

 

[Splenda88]

To be clear, very very few dentists who are 27 are making 200-300k. Reality is closer to 120-140k.

Why would someone get into 300k+ debt to make what NP/PA make at my place?

My tuition in med school was ~35k/yr and I thought I was committing financial suicide.

 

[unknown111]

To be clear, very very few dentists who are 27 are making 200-300k. Reality is closer to 120-140k.

180-200K is very possible for a motivated first year grad doing 6-7 days in the suburb/city.

Usually the # days will taper down as you build more experience.

2-3 years out, likelihood of 200-250k on 5 days/week is very high.

 

[JacquesVallee]

180-200K is very possible for a motivated first year grad doing 6-7 days in the suburb/city.

But this is an excellent way to get burnt out and hate dentistry. I cannot FATHOM ever working this job 7 days a week. I ended up moving to the middle of nowhere working four days a week making about 200k. Had I done five days a week I probably could have been near 250k but I didn't need the extra money, and I found my back really hurting after four days. My friends who live in civilization are all still around 130-140k, some still less than that. Cities now are so saturated it's just hard to get the volume of patients to really produce as an associate.

 

[somefuturedoc]

But this is an excellent way to get burnt out and hate dentistry. I cannot FATHOM ever working this job 7 days a week. I ended up moving to the middle of nowhere working four days a week making about 200k. Had I done five days a week I probably could have been near 250k but I didn't need the extra money, and I found my back really hurting after four days. My friends who live in civilization are all still around 130-140k, some still less than that. Cities now are so saturated it's just hard to get the volume of patients to really produce as an associate.

People scoff at the idea of working 6-7 days a week as a new dentist, but you realize to become a physician like everyone is recommending, you have to work 6-7 days per week while in residency? Feels ironic…

 

[JacquesVallee]

People scoff at the idea of working 6-7 days a week as a new dentist, but you realize to become a physician like everyone is recommending, you have to work 6-7 days per week while in residency? Feels ironic…

That's 100% fair, especially with regards to surgical residencies. I have no idea how general surgery residents do it. I just know with general dentistry being hunched over working in milimeters for hours a day on awake patients is so physically demanding I couldn't physically do it more than 5 days a week. I seriously already have back pain. With regards to residencies like IM, I'd imagine it's not physically the same as dentistry. Perhaps @Splenda88 could shed light on how physically demanding medical residency was.

 

[slowthai]

People scoff at the idea of working 6-7 days a week as a new dentist, but you realize to become a physician like everyone is recommending, you have to work 6-7 days per week while in residency? Feels ironic…

It's about 6 days per week working 70-80 hrs as well. I'm psych, so we don't work that much, but that's not most of medicine.

 

[somefuturedoc]

It's about 6 days per week working 70-80 hrs as well. I'm psych, so we don't work that much, but that's not most of medicine.

Yup. In OMFS we rotate on a bunch of services. I’ve done 6 days a week on every rotation except anesthesia. But even anesthesia was still 60hrs a week.

 

[somefuturedoc]

That's 100% fair, especially with regards to surgical residencies. I have no idea how general surgery residents do it. I just know with general dentistry being hunched over working in milimeters for hours a day on awake patients is so physically demanding I couldn't physically do it more than 5 days a week. I seriously already have back pain. With regards to residencies like IM, I'd imagine it's not physically the same as dentistry. Perhaps @Splenda88 could shed light on how physically demanding medical residency was.

My only point is it’s not unreasonable for general dentists to work more (to get a higher income) when starting your career, when that’s what the rest of medicine universally has to do. But I’m not a general dentist so maybe my perspective is skewed

 

[yappy]

That's 100% fair, especially with regards to surgical residencies. I have no idea how general surgery residents do it. I just know with general dentistry being hunched over working in milimeters for hours a day on awake patients is so physically demanding I couldn't physically do it more than 5 days a week. I seriously already have back pain. With regards to residencies like IM, I'd imagine it's not physically the same as dentistry. Perhaps @Splenda88 could shed light on how physically demanding medical residency was.

Many surgical specialties don’t operate every day they’re working. Most have time in clinic, floor time, or their residency is structured such that they have much less responsibility than when they are fully credentialed. It’s not an accurate comparison.

Dentistry is hard intensive work with minimal downtime during the day. I often think it would be nice if our schedule was set up like other procedural fields where we do “clinic” aka exams exclusively and then have uninterrupted treatment days but the hygiene-exam model doesn’t allow for that.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

Is it better to start making 200-300k per year at the age of 27 vs. 500-650k/yr at the age of 31? That is what anesthesiologist make these days. Who knows how long that gravy train will last?

I think the beauty of dentistry is you can start making $200-300k per year at the age of 26 and then buy a practice and make $500-$650k/yr at the age of 31 as a business owner. You’re not tied to that $200-300k income level for life.

Also, to answer this question, let’s say you are making $200-300k per year from the age of 26 until 31. If you’re a disciplined investor and are able to invest $100k per year or $8,333 per month, assuming a 10% growth rate, by the time you’re 31 you’ll have $645,000 invested. If the dentist making $200-300k per year never invests another penny, by the time they retire at 65 that $645,000 grows to $19 million (assuming the same 10% growth rate which is the historical average of the s&p500). Those early years with a decent income can be very significant if someone is a disciplined investor. Most people, unfortunately, are not though and they’ll blow that money on a Mercedes.

 

[Splenda88]

That's 100% fair, especially with regards to surgical residencies. I have no idea how general surgery residents do it. I just know with general dentistry being hunched over working in milimeters for hours a day on awake patients is so physically demanding I couldn't physically do it more than 5 days a week. I seriously already have back pain. With regards to residencies like IM, I'd imagine it's not physically the same as dentistry. Perhaps @Splenda88 could shed light on how physically demanding medical residency was.

Not physically demanding but it's a lot hours (65-70 hrs/wk on average depending of the program).

 

[Splenda88]

Many surgical specialties don’t operate every day they’re working. Most have time in clinic, floor time, or their residency is structured such that they have much less responsibility than when they are fully credentialed. It’s not an accurate comparison.

Dentistry is hard intensive work with minimal downtime during the day. I often think it would be nice if our schedule was set up like other procedural fields where we do “clinic” aka exams exclusively and then have uninterrupted treatment days but the hygiene-exam model doesn’t allow for that.

That is the reason I like my job because I have a lot of downtime as a hospitalist. For instance, today I watched an entire soccer game in the doctor's lounge, ate lunch and was out of the hospital by 1:10 pm. Just have to answer to pesky nurse messages/calls until 7pm.

 

[juniordentist]

I think the beauty of dentistry is you can start making $200-300k per year at the age of 26 and then buy a practice and make $500-$650k/yr at the age of 31 as a business owner. You’re not tied to that $200-300k income level for life.

Also, to answer this question, let’s say you are making $200-300k per year from the age of 26 until 31. If you’re a disciplined investor and are able to invest $100k per year or $8,333 per month, assuming a 10% growth rate, by the time you’re 31 you’ll have $645,000 invested. If the dentist making $200-300k per year never invests another penny, by the time they retire at 65 that $645,000 grows to $19 million (assuming the same 10% growth rate which is the historical average of the s&p500). Those early years with a decent income can be very significant if someone is a disciplined investor. Most people, unfortunately, are not though and they’ll blow that money on a Mercedes.

By that logic, it would make sense to stay as an associate your whole career. If you're headed towards 19 million at 31 years old, that is a position where time is more important than money. And owning a practice is much more time intensive than being an associate. I'm 10 years out of dental school, and the common thing I've noticed about my age group is that time is starting to become more important than earnings. People my age want to work less, deal with less management BS, and reduce work related stress. I've recently become much more aware of my age and health and not wanting to commit too much of my energy towards work. Money still matters to me, but in 10 more years I can't see any logic to doing more than 3 days a week, which is much easier as an associate than practice owner. If I had set myself up better in my early years like in your scenario I would be doing 3 days a week now and definitely prefer to be associate than owner

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

By that logic, it would make sense to stay as an associate your whole career. If you're headed towards 19 million at 31 years old, that is a position where time is more important than money. And owning a practice is much more time intensive than being an associate. I'm 10 years out of dental school, and the common thing I've noticed about my age group is that time is starting to become more important than earnings. People my age want to work less, deal with less management BS, and reduce work related stress. I've recently become much more aware of my age and health and not wanting to commit too much of my energy towards work. Money still matters to me, but in 10 more years I can't see any logic to doing more than 3 days a week, which is much easier as an associate than practice owner. If I had set myself up better in my early years like in your scenario I would be doing 3 days a week now and definitely prefer to be associate than owner

It’s a good point. If you can work for 15-20 years making good money as an associate and have less stress, there is a lot to be said for that. Then you can scale back as you please without worrying about keeping the office production high for when you sell.

I think it all just depends on what your career ambitions are and how much money is considered “enough” for you. There’s no right path.

 

[2TH MVR]

Also, to answer this question, let’s say you are making $200-300k per year from the age of 26 until 31. If you’re a disciplined investor and are able to invest $100k per year or $8,333 per month, assuming a 10% growth rate, by the time you’re 31 you’ll have $645,000 invested. If the dentist making $200-300k per year never invests another penny, by the time they retire at 65 that $645,000 grows to $19 million (assuming the same 10% growth rate which is the historical average of the s&p500). Those early years with a decent income can be very significant if someone is a disciplined investor. Most people, unfortunately, are not though and they’ll blow that money on a Mercedes.

I agree with you in principle. Doing it is a challenge. If you have a family (wife, couple of kids, dogs, aging parents, etc. etc.) the expenses can be enormous and somewhat unpredictable. Think housing costs, college, health issues, cars for the kids, food, utilities, family vacations, etc. etc. etc. The list is endless. Then add "fun" things such as nice cars, boats, vacation homes, etc, etc. Of course these "material items" are not necessary, but ...... the memories with these "material items" are priceless. Memories I spent with my children and wife. I would not trade these "life" experiences for anything.

Now. The key is to have balance. Balance in investing for the future and living a fullfilling life in the present. No one wants to be broke during retirement. But I also want to enjoy my golden years while I still can. No one can predict your eventual demise.

The old saying is you don't want to be the richest guy in the cemetary.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

I agree with you in principle. Doing it is a challenge. If you have a family (wife, couple of kids, dogs, aging parents, etc. etc.) the expenses can be enormous and somewhat unpredictable. Think housing costs, college, health issues, cars for the kids, food, utilities, family vacations, etc. etc. etc. The list is endless. Then add "fun" things such as nice cars, boats, vacation homes, etc, etc. Of course these "material items" are not necessary, but ...... the memories with these "material items" are priceless. Memories I spent with my children and wife. I would not trade these "life" experiences for anything.

Now. The key is to have balance. Balance in investing for the future and living a fullfilling life in the present. No one wants to be broke during retirement. But I also want to enjoy my golden years while I still can. No one can predict your eventual demise.

The old saying is you don't want to be the richest guy in the cemetary.

You make really good points and I’m in agreement with everything you’re saying. The beauty of this is you’re making the investments until you’re 31. The $19 million assumes you never invest another penny again after 31. That leaves plenty of money for the house, kids, and life expenses.

 

[clarkbar]

why are you listening to people who have yet to graduate? take that DO acceptance

DO and med school is easier than it was 20 years ago, but if you don't have a passion, and the OP doesn't have a ride or die obsession, medical training will kill you as a person, literally a burnt out husk of a boy.
I have much less exposure to dental training, but it's only four years. I suppose the debt problem would be a great deciding factor.

 

[clarkbar]

That is the reason I like my job because I have a lot of downtime as a hospitalist. For instance, today I watched an entire soccer game in the doctor's lounge, ate lunch and was out of the hospital by 1:10 pm. Just have to answer to pesky nurse messages/calls until 7pm.

how is that possible?

 

[Splenda88]

how is that possible?

I had ~15 patients and I knew almost all of them since I have been taking care of them for a couple of days already. Some of the patients have routine stuff to treat and a few are just waiting to be placed at a nursing home or a rehab facility.

My place has long and short call days for hospitalists. We can leave early on short call days (3 out of 7 days), but on long call days , we have to stay in the hospital until 6 pm.

My job is somewhat flexible. For instance, I left the hospital today for 1.5 hrs to run some errands and then went back to admit a patient even if I was long call.

Some of the hospitalists would leave to do thing such as go shopping, watching their kids soccer games, go to a beauty salon and come back even if they are on long call. It's hard to find a job in medicine that is THAT flexible.

 

[Ascent23510]

I guess I am curious. To the dentists out there, how much free time do you have? Like can you take 2 weeks off comfortably or are you under pressure to keep producing continuously?

The way these people I spoke made it out to seem was that they have a lot of free time as a dentist. Of course there is that 4 day work week but outside of work do you guys find yourselves being able to take a lot of free time off or do you feel like there’s not a lot of flexibility.

Just wanna get a better understanding because the people I shadowed were straight up chilling. They were all older dentists who seemed like they had so much free time.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

I guess I am curious. To the dentists out there, how much free time do you have? Like can you take 2 weeks off comfortably or are you under pressure to keep producing continuously?

The way these people I spoke made it out to seem was that they have a lot of free time as a dentist. Of course there is that 4 day work week but outside of work do you guys find yourselves being able to take a lot of free time off or do you feel like there’s not a lot of flexibility.

Just wanna get a better understanding because the people I shadowed were straight up chilling. They were all older dentists who seemed like they had so much free time.

Im an associate dentist in my 20s. On one hand you only get paid when you work, but on the other hand, I make great money and have been able to have time off this spring to go on a cruise, go to Taiwan, and go to Hawaii. I saved up the money to do so without having to be worried about not producing for the weeks I am away.

Once you are an owner with an associate you can take off and continue to make some money while you’re away. If the thought of not making any money while you’re away is going to eat at you then you’ll never be able to step away. It’s important to have a healthy balance.

 

[TanMan]

Sounds like you take your work and your debt very seriously. That’s awesome. You sound like an excellent doctor.

Any plans to open your own office and be the next gazillionaire like @TanMan ???

Haha, I'm just gonna lurk around a little more.

Edit:
I think you guys are too focused on the money and not about experiencing life while you're still young. Doing crazy $hit in your 20s and early 30s is totally different than in your 40s+. Your youth will not always be there, and maximizing wealth doesn't equate to maximizing happiness. Go spend time with your family, go buy the things that you can enjoy when you're still young and not when you are 60+ (looking at the midlife crisis ferrari guy in his 60s trying to attract college girls), and achieve that work-life balance. I still think dentistry gives you that flexibility v. medicine. Besides, in one of my businesses, I just hire medical directors for a nominal fee and I don't even have to have an MD/DO. That's how easy it is to get an MD/DO's services without being one.

 

[Ascent23510]

Haha, I'm just gonna lurk around a little more.

Edit:
I think you guys are too focused on the money and not about experiencing life while you're still young. Doing crazy $hit in your 20s and early 30s is totally different than in your 40s+. Your youth will not always be there, and maximizing wealth doesn't equate to maximizing happiness. Go spend time with your family, go buy the things that you can enjoy when you're still young and not when you are 60+ (looking at the midlife crisis ferrari guy in his 60s trying to attract college girls), and achieve that work-life balance. I still think dentistry gives you that flexibility v. medicine. Besides, in one of my businesses, I just hire medical directors for a nominal fee and I don't even have to have an MD/DO. That's how easy it is to get an MD/DO's services without being one.

What kind of business do you run outside of your own practice?

 

[TanMan]

What kind of business do you run outside of your own practice?

Medspas/Weight loss clinics, import/export, and a bunch of other things

 

[FloridaDental_2024]

For those who is making $400K+ a year as an associate, can you tell me which state are you in, how far away from the closest metropolitan? Suburban is great for starting a family, as long as not a village in the middle of nowhere.

 

[JacquesVallee]

For those who is making $400K+ a year as an associate, can you tell me which state are you in, how far away from the closest metropolitan? Suburban is great for starting a family, as long as not a village in the middle of nowhere.

If you want to make $400k+ a year in dentistry, go into ownership. You almost certainly won't make that as an associate.

 

[niko472]

For those who is making $400K+ a year as an associate, can you tell me which state are you in, how far away from the closest metropolitan? Suburban is great for starting a family, as long as not a village in the middle of nowhere.

City of 2mil. I don’t do any root canals, implants or impacted teeth. Learned to be very efficient with extractions and dentures.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

For those who is making $400K+ a year as an associate, can you tell me which state are you in, how far away from the closest metropolitan? Suburban is great for starting a family, as long as not a village in the middle of nowhere.

Northeast. 25 minutes outside of a city with 2 million people.

 

[schmoob]

Haha, I'm just gonna lurk around a little more.

Edit:
I think you guys are too focused on the money and not about experiencing life while you're still young. Doing crazy $hit in your 20s and early 30s is totally different than in your 40s+. Your youth will not always be there, and maximizing wealth doesn't equate to maximizing happiness. Go spend time with your family, go buy the things that you can enjoy when you're still young and not when you are 60+ (looking at the midlife crisis ferrari guy in his 60s trying to attract college girls), and achieve that work-life balance. I still think dentistry gives you that flexibility v. medicine. Besides, in one of my businesses, I just hire medical directors for a nominal fee and I don't even have to have an MD/DO. That's how easy it is to get an MD/DO's services without being one.

Long time no chat. Glad to hear you are doing well.

The thing is to have these successful businesses you do need some liquidity to get it off the ground. Once it’s up and running you can borrow against the equity of your other businesses and their value grows together and you get more cash. This is not to mention all the tax shelters involved in these businesses that provide you with the ability to keep what you earn.

Obviously you know this so I’m not teaching you anything, it’s just that initial investment that’s the difficult part when there are student loans, mortgages, multiple car payments, growing families, kids, etc.

I completely agree with you regarding experiences. I did it backwards by having crazy experiences in my 20s and 30s. Experiences that people have only seen in movies. Now in my 40s I have the hectic life as a sole provider for my families. More experiences require more money and it takes money to make money.

Cheers!

 

[TanMan]

Long time no chat. Glad to hear you are doing well.

The thing is to have these successful businesses you do need some liquidity to get it off the ground. Once it’s up and running you can borrow against the equity of your other businesses and their value grows together and you get more cash. This is not to mention all the tax shelters involved in these businesses that provide you with the ability to keep what you earn.

Obviously you know this so I’m not teaching you anything, it’s just that initial investment that’s the difficult part when there are student loans, mortgages, multiple car payments, growing families, kids, etc.

I completely agree with you regarding experiences. I did it backwards by having crazy experiences in my 20s and 30s. Experiences that people have only seen in movies. Now in my 40s I have the hectic life as a sole provider for my families. More experiences require more money and it takes money to make money.

Cheers!

Definitely. Some other realizations in life include living life to the fullest in your prime years. Do everything/everyone you want to do and don't be blinded by the pursuit of wealth. When you die, you won't be able to take that with you. You don't really own anything when you think about it. You're working 1/3 to 1/5th of the time for the government via taxes, you have property taxes which are pretty much like a low cost indefinite lease to the government, and everything you buy is taxed with the money you already gave a cut to some branch of the government... so yeah. Enjoy life, set it up so that you don't have to worry about money, but don't forget to have fun in the process too.

 

[LFA20]

Definitely. Some other realizations in life include living life to the fullest in your prime years. Do everything/everyone you want to do and don't be blinded by the pursuit of wealth. When you die, you won't be able to take that with you. You don't really own anything when you think about it. You're working 1/3 to 1/5th of the time for the government via taxes, you have property taxes which are pretty much like a low cost indefinite lease to the government, and everything you buy is taxed with the money you already gave a cut to some branch of the government... so yeah. Enjoy life, set it up so that you don't have to worry about money, but don't forget to have fun in the process too.

This is a wise advice for sure 🙂

 

[charlestweed]

The problem is most young 26-27 yo new grads have nothing….broke, very limited clinical skills, no house, and a lot of student loan debt etc. It’ll be hard to find a good paying job because no employer would want to hire a slow and lazy associate dentist who takes off work frequently to travel. Can’t enjoy life without a good paying job. Can’t make money without good clinical skills. Can’t find a date, if you’re broke and can’t pay back the debt. To earn trust from the boss, it requires a lot of effort and the willingness to learn new skills. This is not the time to think about working less and enjoying life. Reputation and experience can't be built overnight.

By ages 30-35, you get married and have kids. And with kids, you can’t live in a tiny apartment. You need a house in a good neighborhood to raise your kids. At this time, you need to think about setting up your own office (so you can enjoy the full autonomy for being an owner) because you can’t work for someone else forever. By ages 40-45, your teenage kids need a car and auto insurance won’t be cheap for inexperience teenage drivers. By ages 50+, your kids will start college and you’ll have to help pay for their tuitions. You start to look at your saving to see if you have saved enough for retirement or not. The list goes on.

To me, living under the financial stress is not a healthy lifestyle. I actually enjoy building wealth. Living with surplus helps motivate me to work hard to maintain such great lifestyle for myself and my family. It sucks being poor. I want to provide for my kids a comfortable/happy lifestyle. When my kids are happy I am happy. So what if I die young and can’t take the money with me. I have kids. The money will go to my kids and grandkids.

For many, enjoying the youth years means taking off work and traveling to as many places/countries as possible. But for me, I’d rather stay at home and do nothing. People may think I have a boring life. But to me, a boring life is actually a great life. I have hobbies that I only do at home…like playing piano/guitar, gardening, and installing a lot of gadgets to make my house a smart/fully automated house etc. I don’t really like traveling and find that choosing to sleep in the middle of the day is the greatest luxury in the world. Sometimes rich people don’t get to do it. I live in CA. I enjoy the good weather and the good food here. The paradise is here. To me, it’s a huge downgrade when I have to travel to a place outside of CA. I travel because I want to make my wife happy. Happy wife = happy life. Travel is so overrated.

 

[TanMan]

The problem is most young 26-27 yo new grads have nothing….broke, very limited clinical skills, no house, and a lot of student loan debt etc. It’ll be hard to find a good paying job because no employer would want to hire a slow and lazy associate dentist who takes off work frequently to travel. Can’t enjoy life without a good paying job. Can’t make money without good clinical skills. Can’t find a date, if you’re broke and can’t pay back the debt. To earn trust from the boss, it requires a lot of effort and the willingness to learn new skills. This is not the time to think about working less and enjoying life. Reputation and experience can't be built overnight.

By ages 30-35, you get married and have kids. And with kids, you can’t live in a tiny apartment. You need a house in a good neighborhood to raise your kids. At this time, you need to think about setting up your own office (so you can enjoy the full autonomy for being an owner) because you can’t work for someone else forever. By ages 40-45, your teenage kids need a car and auto insurance won’t be cheap for inexperience teenage drivers. By ages 50+, your kids will start college and you’ll have to help pay for their tuitions. You start to look at your saving to see if you have saved enough for retirement or not. The list goes on.

To me, living under the financial stress is not a healthy lifestyle. I actually enjoy building wealth. Living with surplus helps motivate me to work hard to maintain such great lifestyle for myself and my family. It sucks being poor. I want to provide for my kids a comfortable/happy lifestyle. When my kids are happy I am happy. So what if I die young and can’t take the money with me. I have kids. The money will go to my kids and grandkids.

For many, enjoying the youth years means taking off work and traveling to as many places/countries as possible. But for me, I’d rather stay at home and do nothing. People may think I have a boring life. But to me, a boring life is actually a great life. I have hobbies that I only do at home…like playing piano/guitar, gardening, and installing a lot of gadgets to make my house a smart/fully automated house etc. I don’t really like traveling and find that choosing to sleep in the middle of the day is the greatest luxury in the world. Sometimes rich people don’t get to do it. I live in CA. I enjoy the good weather and the good food here. The paradise is here. To me, it’s a huge downgrade when I have to travel to a place outside of CA. I travel because I want to make my wife happy. Happy wife = happy life. Travel is so overrated.

Yes, Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have the mentality of "just do it", work on speed now and build your skill as you go along. If you plan to associate yourself, then you are typically bound by your employer and their rules. All they care is that you make money, so that's all you need to do. Make lots of money for them, make lots of money for yourself, and don't bother them and be a liability.

It sounds like you have more of a traditional mindset/timeline of family and kids. I may propose an alternate mindset where you work hard and play hard in the beginning, have kids (don't even have to have a wife) around 35-45. Doing everything as a single person or unattached person in a relationship really frees up your financial responsibility to do whatever you want to do. You can do all three at the same time if you wanted to - build wealth, have fun, and work a lot. Being married can be restrictive if you're a free spirit who doesn't like being told what to do or being tied down. Everyone's idea of fun is different, but I think what you can experience in your 20s and 30s is totally different from what you can do when you are 40-50+.

 

[charlestweed]

Yes, Unfortunately, a lot of people don't have the mentality of "just do it", work on speed now and build your skill as you go along. If you plan to associate yourself, then you are typically bound by your employer and their rules. All they care is that you make money, so that's all you need to do. Make lots of money for them, make lots of money for yourself, and don't bother them and be a liability.

It sounds like you have more of a traditional mindset/timeline of family and kids. I may propose an alternate mindset where you work hard and play hard in the beginning, have kids (don't even have to have a wife) around 35-45. Doing everything as a single person or unattached person in a relationship really frees up your financial responsibility to do whatever you want to do. You can do all three at the same time if you wanted to - build wealth, have fun, and work a lot. Being married can be restrictive if you're a free spirit who doesn't like being told what to do or being tied down. Everyone's idea of fun is different, but I think what you can experience in your 20s and 30s is totally different from what you can do when you are 40-50+.

One of the biggest cons of dentistry is it takes too many years of schooling to become a dentist. You won’t start earning a real income until you’re 26-27 yo. That’s why I’ve always encouraged young predents to stay focused in school and avoid taking 1-2 gap years. And I don’t recommend older 30+ yo nontraditional students to pursue dentistry. The longer you delay your education plan, the longer you will have to work and the less time you will be able to enjoy life.

Being a successful owner requires a lot of hard work and sacrifice. IMO, the best time to achieve this is during your youth years when you are still single, no kid (or have kids but they’re only 1-2 yo), and super healthy. It’s much harder to open a practice when you are older, have kids, and are the sole provider of the family.

I didn’t have any experience in dating different girlfriends when I was younger (my wife is the only person in my life). But don’t you have to spend a lot of money on your girlfriend(s) as well? Like high end meals, nice cars (to impress them), expensive vacation trips, hotels etc? And to keep her around, don’t you have to give up some of your freedom/convenience and be loyal to her and do things to keep her happy? Different girls have different personalities and demands. Don't you have to try hard to keep up with their demands? Again, I don't have any experience on this. So I might be wrong.

For me, being married is not restrictive at all. It actually helps make my life a lot better. The most obvious one is having DOUBLE INCOME…..double amount in the 401k, double in social security benefits etc. With my wife’s help, I don’t have to work too hard to do things like picking up the kids from school, spending time to help kids with their homework, cooking, doing work around the house etc. When I opened an office from scratch, my wife helped me in the front so I didn’t have hire too many employees. When I come home from work, there is a hot meal is waiting for me. When I am sick, I have someone by my side to help make me feel better. The benefits of marriage is too long to list.

 

[schmoob]

And I don’t recommend older 30+ yo nontraditional students to pursue dentistry.

This was me. I was in my thirties when I went to school. It had its challenges of course because I had to balance being a good student, a good husband, and a good dad to my kids. And getting good grades was at the bottom of my priorities list. Don’t get me wrong, I took my studies very seriously, I just wasn’t gunning for OKU or anything like that. I have the letters DDS after my name. MBA as well. My family is the most important thing in my life and they come first.

On the other hand I did a lot of partying in my Navy days before kids. I had a lot of fun all over the world. I had more experiences in those years than many have in a lifetime.

The best part is, I don’t owe a penny for dental school.

 

[Splenda88]

One of the biggest cons of dentistry is it takes too many years of schooling to become a dentist. You won’t start earning a real income until you’re 26-27 yo. That’s why I’ve always encouraged young predents to stay focused in school and avoid taking 1-2 gap years. And I don’t recommend older 30+ yo nontraditional students to pursue dentistry. The longer you delay your education plan, the longer you will have to work and the less time you will be able to enjoy life.

Being a successful owner requires a lot of hard work and sacrifice. IMO, the best time to achieve this is during your youth years when you are still single, no kid (or have kids but they’re only 1-2 yo), and super healthy. It’s much harder to open a practice when you are older, have kids, and are the sole provider of the family.

I didn’t have any experience in dating different girlfriends when I was younger (my wife is the only person in my life). But don’t you have to spend a lot of money on your girlfriend(s) as well? Like high end meals, nice cars (to impress them), expensive vacation trips, hotels etc? And to keep her around, don’t you have to give up some of your freedom/convenience and be loyal to her and do things to keep her happy? Different girls have different personalities and demands. Don't you have to try hard to keep up with their demands? Again, I don't have any experience on this. So I might be wrong.

For me, being married is not restrictive at all. It actually helps make my life a lot better. The most obvious one is having DOUBLE INCOME…..double amount in the 401k, double in social security benefits etc. With my wife’s help, I don’t have to work too hard to do things like picking up the kids from school, spending time to help kids with their homework, cooking, doing work around the house etc. When I opened an office from scratch, my wife helped me in the front so I didn’t have hire too many employees. When I come home from work, there is a hot meal is waiting for me. When I am sick, I have someone by my side to help make me feel better. The benefits of marriage is too long to list.

Even at 30-32, it's not bad deal IMO if you can keep your student loan < 250k.

I did start med school around mid 30s and I have no regrets. It's probably the best financial decision I have made.

 

[charlestweed]

This was me. I was in my thirties when I went to school. It had its challenges of course because I had to balance being a good student, a good husband, and a good dad to my kids. And getting good grades was at the bottom of my priorities list. Don’t get me wrong, I took my studies very seriously, I just wasn’t gunning for OKU or anything like that. I have the letters DDS after my name. MBA as well. My family is the most important thing in my life and they come first.

On the other hand I did a lot of partying in my Navy days before kids. I had a lot of fun all over the world. I had more experiences in those years than many have in a lifetime.

The best part is, I don’t owe a penny for dental school.

I would only recommend an older 30+ student to pursue dentistry if he could pay for his own education (by using the money he had saved from his previous career) or join the military to get the military scholarship.

It’s cool that you got to travel all over the world when you were in your 20s. When I was at that age, I couldn’t because I was too poor. A flight ticket was too expensive....way beyond what I could afford. My very first flight experience was when I flew from a refugee camp (I was a political refugee) to America. The second time that I traveled on the plane was 10 years later… and that was when I flew to Rochester, NY for my ortho residency interview…..and that came from the student loan money.

My very first "luxury" travel was my honeymoon in Hawaii. I got married a month after I finished my ortho residency. And the more I travel, the more I realize that travel is not my thing. I don't enjoy being in a strange place. I don’t like flying and waiting at the airports. What a big waste of time and money! I’d much rather this same amount of money to get myself a nice car or a delicious meal. I like going on cruises that depart from the local port (Long Beach port) because I love eating good food and I don't have to fly.

 

[charlestweed]

Even at 30-32, it's not bad deal IMO if you can keep your student loan < 250k.

I did start med school around mid 30s and I have no regrets. It's probably the best financial decision I have made.

Unfortunately, most dental schools charge 2X (or more) that amount. The total cost of attendance for 4 years at UCLA dental school is more than $400k. And this is a public school.

Unlike medicine, dentists have to work with their hands and often have to hunch over while working, which can lead to musculoskeletal problems such as neck/back pain, carpal tunnel, and fatigue. It’s not uncommon to see dentists who have these health issues when they are in their early 40s, 50s. This might be a problem if you start your dental career at an older age. Another issue with dentistry is setting up an office (or purchasing an existing one) is very costly.

 

[TanMan]

One of the biggest cons of dentistry is it takes too many years of schooling to become a dentist. You won’t start earning a real income until you’re 26-27 yo. That’s why I’ve always encouraged young predents to stay focused in school and avoid taking 1-2 gap years. And I don’t recommend older 30+ yo nontraditional students to pursue dentistry. The longer you delay your education plan, the longer you will have to work and the less time you will be able to enjoy life.

Being a successful owner requires a lot of hard work and sacrifice. IMO, the best time to achieve this is during your youth years when you are still single, no kid (or have kids but they’re only 1-2 yo), and super healthy. It’s much harder to open a practice when you are older, have kids, and are the sole provider of the family.

I didn’t have any experience in dating different girlfriends when I was younger (my wife is the only person in my life). But don’t you have to spend a lot of money on your girlfriend(s) as well? Like high end meals, nice cars (to impress them), expensive vacation trips, hotels etc? And to keep her around, don’t you have to give up some of your freedom/convenience and be loyal to her and do things to keep her happy? Different girls have different personalities and demands. Don't you have to try hard to keep up with their demands? Again, I don't have any experience on this. So I might be wrong.

For me, being married is not restrictive at all. It actually helps make my life a lot better. The most obvious one is having DOUBLE INCOME…..double amount in the 401k, double in social security benefits etc. With my wife’s help, I don’t have to work too hard to do things like picking up the kids from school, spending time to help kids with their homework, cooking, doing work around the house etc. When I opened an office from scratch, my wife helped me in the front so I didn’t have hire too many employees. When I come home from work, there is a hot meal is waiting for me. When I am sick, I have someone by my side to help make me feel better. The benefits of marriage is too long to list.

I'll agree that it is harder to setup an office when you have the burden of a family on your shoulders. Dentistry is probably still one of the best professions to generate hard currency quickly. My experience may have been different, but traditional relationship dynamics have changed quite a bit and it isn't as expensive as getting a wife. High end meals a drop in the bucket + infrequent, buying a nice car to impress them reeks of cringey beta-male behavior (buy a car you like, because you like it for whatever reason, not because you want to impress others), and no, I don't have to give up my freedom/convenience. If they don't like it, they can gtfo, lol. Trying too hard puts you on the weaker end of the relationship dynamic. Enjoy the ride or get out.

The whole point of making a lot of money is so that I don't have to depend on anyone to double my income, support a trouble-free lifestyle, as my income should be sufficient to cover all my expenses and then some. In an independent scenario, you shouldn't have to depend on anyone to pick up your kids; hire a nanny/driver/people to pick up your kids, help them with their homework, cook for you, or do other tasks that you don't want to do. You could hypothetically hire/support a whole bunch of 18+ y/o sugar babies to do this for you for the cost of one wife and might pay for itself if you ever had to get divorced (cost of divorce >>> cost of support staff).

Edit: "High end" meals are overrated and "high end aka high priced" does not mean high quality. Enjoy the food that you like and if you like cooking, cook instead.

I would only recommend an older 30+ student to pursue dentistry if he could pay for his own education (by using the money he had saved from his previous career) or join the military to get the military scholarship.

It’s cool that you got to travel all over the world when you were in your 20s. When I was at that age, I couldn’t because I was too poor. A flight ticket was too expensive....way beyond what I could afford. My very first flight experience was when I flew from a refugee camp (I was a political refugee) to America. The second time that I traveled on the plane was 10 years later… and that was when I flew to Rochester, NY for my ortho residency interview…..and that came from the student loan money.

My very first "luxury" travel was my honeymoon in Hawaii. I got married a month after I finished my ortho residency. And the more I travel, the more I realize that travel is not my thing. I don't enjoy being in a strange place. I don’t like flying and waiting at the airports. What a big waste of time and money! I’d much rather this same amount of money to get myself a nice car or a delicious meal. I like going on cruises that depart from the local port (Long Beach port) because I love eating good food and I don't have to fly.

Traveling is not for everyone. It does get tiring, especially if you have to do it the traditional way. There are convenient and fun options, but they are expensive. FBOs are one option, LAX/ATL has the private suite, showers and lie flat beds make traveling a lot more comfortable. If you travel to Asia a lot, get APEC to expedite your customs arrival, if not, there's always airport services that make your arrival experience seamless (such as meet and greet, private lounge/customs, luggage sent directly to where you are staying, and so on...)

 

[schmoob]

Traveling is not for everyone. It does get tiring, especially if you have to do it the traditional way. There are convenient and fun options, but they are expensive. FBOs are one option, LAX/ATL has the private suite, showers and lie flat beds make traveling a lot more comfortable. If you travel to Asia a lot, get APEC to expedite your customs arrival, if not, there's always airport services that make your arrival experience seamless (such as meet and greet, private lounge/customs, luggage sent directly to where you are staying, and so on...)

Jeez. And I thought the USO lounges were fancy.

 

[Pablo Sanchez]

In an independent scenario, you shouldn't have to depend on anyone to pick up your kids; hire a nanny/driver/people to pick up your kids, help them with their homework, cook for you, or do other tasks that you don't want to do. You could hypothetically hire/support a whole bunch of 18+ y/o sugar babies to do this for you for the cost of one wife and might pay for itself if you ever had to get divorced (cost of divorce >>> cost of support staff).

Is this really what we are advocating for these days? How does this work at end of life when you are old, ugly, needing care and alone? Do you pay for company then because you have no family who wants to spend time with you?

What effect does growing up like this have on the kids? Parents too busy to want to be around. A different sugar baby around every few months.

This seems like a surefire way to end up like Bill Belichick where he is whipped and his sugar baby runs his life.

 

[charlestweed]

I'll agree that it is harder to setup an office when you have the burden of a family on your shoulders. Dentistry is probably still one of the best professions to generate hard currency quickly. My experience may have been different, but traditional relationship dynamics have changed quite a bit and it isn't as expensive as getting a wife. High end meals a drop in the bucket + infrequent, buying a nice car to impress them reeks of cringey beta-male behavior (buy a car you like, because you like it for whatever reason, not because you want to impress others), and no, I don't have to give up my freedom/convenience. If they don't like it, they can gtfo, lol. Trying too hard puts you on the weaker end of the relationship dynamic. Enjoy the ride or get out.

The whole point of making a lot of money is so that I don't have to depend on anyone to double my income, support a trouble-free lifestyle, as my income should be sufficient to cover all my expenses and then some. In an independent scenario, you shouldn't have to depend on anyone to pick up your kids; hire a nanny/driver/people to pick up your kids, help them with their homework, cook for you, or do other tasks that you don't want to do. You could hypothetically hire/support a whole bunch of 18+ y/o sugar babies to do this for you for the cost of one wife and might pay for itself if you ever had to get divorced (cost of divorce >>> cost of support staff).

Edit: "High end" meals are overrated and "high end aka high priced" does not mean high quality. Enjoy the food that you like and if you like cooking, cook instead.



Traveling is not for everyone. It does get tiring, especially if you have to do it the traditional way. There are convenient and fun options, but they are expensive. FBOs are one option, LAX/ATL has the private suite, showers and lie flat beds make traveling a lot more comfortable. If you travel to Asia a lot, get APEC to expedite your customs arrival, if not, there's always airport services that make your arrival experience seamless (such as meet and greet, private lounge/customs, luggage sent directly to where you are staying, and so on...)

Yes, dentistry is still one of the best professions. It’s too bad that many of our colleagues don’t think so and have the “grass is greener” syndrome.

By my standard, I think my practice is doing very well….beyond what I’ve expected, especially for being in a very oversaturated market like So Cal. But I still need my wife’s income. It’s expensive to live here. Back when we were in our mid 30s, early 40s, we were drowning in debt so we both had to work very hard. The student loans were paid off but we still had 2 practice loans, a home mortgage, and 3 rental property mortgages. I didn't become 100% debt-free until I turned 49. I am 53 now. Now, even with the fully paid off house, I still have to pay $3000/month just to live in it (property taxes, insurance, HOA, utility etc). Our monthly living budget is $17k/month (or over $200k/yr). This is just the basic living budget, which doesn’t include travel expenses and shopping.

As Pablo Sanchez pointed out, it’s not just about picking up kids from school. You have to drive them to the after-school sport events, watch them play, buy food for the team, and celebrate with the team etc. Sometimes I was too busy working. I showed up late and only watched part of the game.

We are not wealthy enough to afford such luxury first class/private lounge travel.

 

[TanMan]

Is this really what we are advocating for these days? How does this work at end of life when you are old, ugly, needing care and alone? Do you pay for company then because you have no family who wants to spend time with you?

What effect does growing up like this have on the kids? Parents too busy to want to be around. A different sugar baby around every few months.

This seems like a surefire way to end up like Bill Belichick where he is whipped and his sugar baby runs his life.

Not for all circumstances, but I do know of a few that did something like that. There's also hybrid models where you have a relationship (aka baby mamas) but also do your own thing... again, to each their own and traditional models, extreme models, and hybrid models of relationships all have their pros and cons. It doesn't work for everyone. It appears to be generalizing to say that we always need someone in our life.

I'm not saying you hand off the kids completely to your support staff, but they do all the not so fun things or things you don't want to do, and you do all the fun things with them. I don't know what the psychological effects would be on those kids. Some people are better attuned to being independent and don't need people to be around them to be happy, and some people need to be around others 24/7 to be happy. You don't have to pay for company, that's what friends are for. However, to do things that you wouldn't ask your friend to do, you ask your support staff/independent contractors/whatever you want to call them.

As for end of life, if I can't wipe my own @ss at this point, they should probably pull the plug on me. Heck, I might have dementia and not even know my own family, friends and loved ones. I'd just be a burden and my quality of life would probably be low. I'm not working/existing just to look forward to my end of life, because I don't know how I'm going to die. I'm not going to base my life of how I'm going to spend the end of life because I'm living in the present and I don't want to have regrets about what I should've done when I was younger. I could get run over by a car and die tomorrow... or die at the ripe old age of 100. Your family will probably not want to spend time with you anyway if you've become a huge burden on their lives (cultural differences do exist).

 

[LFA20]

Is this really what we are advocating for these days? How does this work at end of life when you are old, ugly, needing care and alone? Do you pay for company then because you have no family who wants to spend time with you?

What effect does growing up like this have on the kids? Parents too busy to want to be around. A different sugar baby around every few months.

This seems like a surefire way to end up like Bill Belichick where he is whipped and his sugar baby runs his life.

100% agree with this and I have seen it first hand with family members, friends, etc.

Yes you could get married with someone and divorce many years later and get screwed. However, that's the risk people are willing to take and if it works out, it's the best thing that will ever happen to them. Having a loyal partner and children with that person, seeing them grow up, spending time with them. That is just priceless.

and No friends are NEVER going to be the same as family. EVER.

 

[TanMan]

100% agree with this and I have seen it first hand with family members, friends, etc.

Yes you could get married with someone and divorce many years later and get screwed. However, that's the risk people are willing to take and if it works out, it's the best thing that will ever happen to them. Having a loyal partner and children with that person, seeing them grow up, spending time with them. That is just priceless.

and No friends are NEVER going to be the same as family. EVER.

There's that old saying... a good friend will help you move, but a true friend will help you move a body. Some friends/family are willing to go above and beyond, and some aren't. I'd say I know who I can count on, but it's not always family.