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Neuronix said:
I didn't mean to imply that our entire classes went jobless or didn't have jobs in March/April. Just the seniors I am or were working with this time of year.
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Kind of early to broach this, but if don’t job by now aren’t residents kind of hosed?
 
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RickyScott said:
Kind of early to broach this, but if don’t job by now aren’t residents kind of hosed?
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I know one at my former program that slipped into a job in July, after getting her contract pulled in May, granted this was about 4-5 years ago, well before we pumped out an additional 800 or so grads.

Nowadays, I'd expect massive hosing at this point sans job although with the current pandemic, the locums market may start perking up now unexpectedly.

The coronavirus black swan may have a lot of unexpected implications for many parties in 2020
 
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Hosing is happening. Bigly. The stories of offers being pulled are going to sprout like weeds in a poorly maintained lot.
 
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Agree - places like NY Methodist and Baylor need to be shut down. I would close these places TODAY if It was up
To me
 
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medgator said:
I know one at my former program that slipped into a job in July, after getting her contract pulled in May, granted this was about 4-5 years ago, well before we pumped out an additional 800 or so grads.

Nowadays, I'd expect massive hosing at this point sans job although with the current pandemic, the locums market may start perking up now unexpectedly.

The coronavirus black swan may have a lot of unexpected implications for many parties in 2020
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Like more old ROs continuing to work and contracts being rescinded and more unemployed people walking around with no insurance...awesome. Good to know working for the last 3 years has been pretty much a wash.
 
RadsWFA1900 said:
Like more old ROs continuing to work and contracts being rescinded and more unemployed people walking around with no insurance...awesome. Good to know working for the last 3 years has been pretty much a wash.
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Assuming they don't end up as part of the body count, yes. This virus is not kind to boomers, statistically speaking
 
medgator said:
Assuming they don't end up as part of the body count, yes. This virus is not kind to boomers, statistically speaking
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Yeah except those old timers who
Lived in the basement and don’t really take care of contagious people. They WILL persist and make people like me absolutely miserable.
 
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Neuronix said:


I want to reply: does your chief resident have a job? Mine doesn't. Three years running now, the chiefs I personally worked with are or have been in March and April with no job. Last year's graduated jobless.

But I don't want to post with my real name.



Post edited for clarity.
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In all honesty this is frankly embarassing for leadership at your academic institution and should make them seriously consider contracting the residency program as they are clearly overtraining.

Of course, chairs/PDs are gonna do chair/PD things and put the blame on the residents for not 'networking' enough.

This should be evaluated at the GME level at your institution (perhaps you could submit an anonymous report) and chair/PD should both get reprimanded with a documented violation of the responsibilities of a residency program. Residency trained graduates should not be going jobless. Underemployed with a bad job, bad location, and/or bad money, that's more nebulous and harder to write off, but UNEMPLOYED should lead to the wrath of the GME department.
 
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I guess everyone's situation is different but Chiefs in my institution were the best. They were very near independent practice and were therefore afforded a high degree of clinical autonomy to "run" their attending's service. Virtually all attendings at my institution loved to have Chiefs on their service because they ran them smoothly which allowed the attendings to focus on research/teaching tasks.
 
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Gfunk6 said:
I guess everyone's situation is different but Chiefs in my institution were the best. They were very near independent practice and were therefore afforded a high degree of clinical autonomy to "run" their attending's service. Virtually all attendings at my institution loved to have Chiefs on their service because they ran them smoothly which allowed the attendings to focus on research/teaching tasks.
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As a current chief (or at least a PGY-5) if I am not running the service I would feel that I have not done residency correctly.

If a chief resident is still requiring anything besides minor supervision for basic radiation oncology tasks, are they really ready to graduate?
 
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I didn't know my good board scores and good research when I applied made me less committed to cancer patients
 
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OTN said:


I didn't know my good board scores and good research when I applied made me less committed to cancer patients
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Lol agreed. If boards and research was always bs then why didn’t I receive an interview at Mayo Clinic?? :thinking:
 
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Olivier refuses to admit what even other PDs like Beriwal are willing to. Head buried in the sand. Focus on quality but not by scores or number of US seniors?

He's out of his mind if he thinks people are more committed to cancer patients now. People who failed at Derm, Ortho, Ophtho, are likely a significant number who soaped into Rad Onc.
 
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Yes, that third of the resident pool that scrambled into rad onc last minute after their primary interest (ortho, ophtho, derm, ENT, uro) rejected them are DEFINITELY much more committed to cancer patients than the past applicant pool that killed themselves studying and publishing for 4 years for the 75% shot they'd match anywhere.

You're just embarrassing yourself Ken.
 
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Mandelin Rain said:
Yes, that third of the resident pool that scrambled into rad onc last minute after their primary interest (ortho, ophtho, derm, ENT, uro) rejected them are DEFINITELY much more committed to cancer patients than the past applicant pool that killed themselves studying and publishing for 4 years for the 75% shot they'd match anywhere.

You're just embarrassing yourself Ken.
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evilbooyaa said:
Olivier refuses to admit what even other PDs like Beriwal are willing to. Head buried in the sand. Focus on quality but not by scores or number of US seniors?

He's out of his mind if he thinks people are more committed to cancer patients now. People who failed at Derm, Ortho, Ophtho, are likely a significant number who soaped into Rad Onc.
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Heard this kind of logic before: variant of If you suck at everything and are also stupid and ugly, then it follows that you must be a really nice person.

Somehow candidates who have worse scores
Must make up for it by caring about cancer pts more?
 
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You also imply quality of students has declined and I disagree. Avg board score may have dropped but that was always BS in determining good doc...kinda like science part of ABR tbh. Less applicants, more committed to cancer patients.

- Kenneth Olivier@KenOlivierMD


I coulda gone to med school. It was just the... science part of it I had a problem with.
- Hank Gordon (Woody Harrelson), 'Doc Hollywood' (1991)
 
The true measure of a doctor's commitment isn't how hard they worked, how much they know, or how deeply they've investigated the current standard; it is "Did they match at a #McMayo location near you?".
 
medgator said:
Ok KO, what were you trying to say?
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He didn't say the smart kids care less, he said the less smart kids care more.

Subtle distinction. One, I'm sure is based in strong evidence.
 
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KO...boards 9/11...difficult test...no pity for you...NRMP poor match...good candidates...no problems...many jobs...protons best...tendulkar friend...good man...chairs best...best people...no greed....residents gaslight...unless smile...I am fun dad...respect me.

KO=tool.
 
Classic name call by @radoncgrad2019

Anyone makes an argument or a point, the plan of attack is insult / mock / say they are greedy. Never an actual “battle of ideas”. If you look back, basically that is the entire strategy - belittle the person making the statement, question their integrity, but move the focus off of the salient points. It’s pretty devious but ingenious, because after a couple attacks, people forget what the original point was and then we talk about Scarbs voice or KHE88 and his newfound love of ethnic foods. It’s working real well.

If you want to insult, fine, moderation here is marginal, at best.

But if you want to engage.. what makes candidates with lesser scores, lesser grades, fewer publications better and why are they more devoted to oncology than the former AOA MD/PhDs that did a dissertation in cancer biology ? Also, as far as those that SOAPd in (39 of about 200 spots, or about 20%), why do you consider them to be more devoted to oncology patients?

Or, instead of engaging, call me a terrible South Asian, or whatever it is you said.
 
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ROFallingDown said:
Classic name call by @radoncgrad2019
But if you want to engage.. what makes candidates with lesser scores, lesser grades, fewer publications better and why are they more devoted to oncology than the former AOA MD/PhDs that did a dissertation in cancer biology ? Also, as far as those that SOAPd in (39 of about 200 spots, or about 20%), why do you consider them to be more devoted to oncology patients?
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"overall goodness" must be a constant value, so you used up a lot of it by being AOA and getting high usmle scores, therefore there is not a lot left over for devotion to oncology patients and being compassionate.
 
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You can just sense all the angst in radoncgrad2019. Just so jaded.

Was he/she always like this? Or did rad onc make them this way? Med students, take notes! You could end up like radoncgrad2019.
 
w00tz said:
You can just sense all the angst in radoncgrad2019. Just so jaded.

Was he/she always like this? Or did rad onc make them this way? Med students, take notes! You could end up like radoncgrad2019.
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Lol my Situation is fine but I’m worried for others for the future. Lot of people here are too. Some don’t give a **** but post here for the lulz. Some are old and out of touch and try to care but are way too disconnected. I honestly think the senior residents and the people 2-3 years out in practice are the most aware. Past that and you’re just not connected anymore, will happen to me too, we all get stuck in our own sphere and our own practice.
 
Or.... some of us run large practices that communicate regularly with similar large practices nationwide...

But your sphere sounds nice and quaint.
 
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Mandelin Rain said:
Or.... some of us run large practices that communicate regularly with similar large practices nationwide...

But your sphere sounds nice and quaint.
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So you’re well connected to the resident experience with communication with other large practices?

Cool.
 
radoncgrad2019 said:
So you’re well connected to the resident experience with communication with other large practices?

Cool.
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Large practices constantly interview and hire active and newly graduated residents. Like dozens per year. Ever been to ASTRO? Are you actually a rad onc?

Stop while you're behind. I'm sure your academic satellite is very cozy and comfortable. You're earning all the brownie points you need by posting here.
 
radoncgrad2019 said:
You agree that I am Kenneth Olivier?

Okay
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Clearly does not know what “above” means. He/she never actually wants to address anything. If disagreed with, resorts to name calling/insults/sometimes casual racism. And from the post below, indicates that he/she has nobody to learn from except people within a few years of them.

This is not name calling, but it has become apparent that many of the younger generation behave this way. Look how often Scarb gets insulted and is able to just pass that and stick to issues. As do many of us that are veterans. The unfortunate thing is that we have to hire and work with people like this and it’s is really challenging. The constant complaining emails, unreasonable demands, the desire to receive more but contribute less.

But, that’s where we are.
 
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Mandelin Rain said:
Large practices constantly interview and hire active and newly graduated residents. Like dozens per year. Ever been to ASTRO? Are you actually a rad onc?

Stop while you're behind. I'm sure your academic satellite is very cozy and comfortable. You're earning all the brownie points you need by posting here.
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Okay, lame attacks that have nothing to do with anything and are also false lol. Sometimes I mess around here for fun, but at least when I do I’m aware of it. The funny thing is you think you’re noble.

But interviewing applicants when you’re long out of training does not mean you have a good understanding of what it’s like to be a resident in 2020. But I get the feeling you don’t actually care that much about that
 
Another embarrassing but mildly successful deflection from Ken Olivier's unsubstantiated gaslighting.


I wonder how his current residents feel know that they'll never care as much as this year's crop. Current McMayo residents, weigh-in. Do you care about your cancer patients? As much as the 2020 SOAPers?
 
radoncgrad2019 said:
You agree that I am Kenneth Olivier?

Okay
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The post above my previous one was the one from ROFallingDown.

I can't tell if you're trolling or just an unintentionally obtuse person who struggles with reading comprehension.

I agree and disagree with folks all the time, including you on both fronts, and let me say, you're in the wrong on this one mang.

Getting back on topic - Kenneth Olivier - the first step to fixing a problem is admitting that you have one. Most PDs have at least admitted there is one and now we can have discourse. Putting your fingers in your ears and screaming 'No! No! No!' and stamping your feet at any negative situation is counter productive.
 
Mandelin Rain said:
Another embarrassing but mildly successful deflection from Ken Olivier's unsubstantiated gaslighting.


I wonder how his current residents feel know that they'll never care as much as this year's crop. Current McMayo residents, weigh-in. Do you care about your cancer patients? As much as the 2020 SOAPers?
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Wait what do you want - me to comment on KO? Is that what you’re waiting for? I think he’s a well meaning guy but clearly he should work on his messaging as people are seeing him as tone deaf.

what even are you getting at?
 
Okay the post above was ROFallingDown. Got it. Before the ninth person comes and posts it.
 
OTN said:


I didn't know my good board scores and good research when I applied made me less committed to cancer patients
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Going back to the original post, this is the type of post that will get lots of likes here. And I get that. But all I was saying is he obviously wasn’t saying that you were not committed to cancer patients because you were good on paper. But I know I know, People are here to be on teams and inserting a bit of reason doesn’t go over well on the internet. I’m aware that if you say this people think you’re Olivier.

Read my other Millions of posts and threads where I talk about problems in the field, and as a recent grad I actually care about the resident experience.
 
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Why do you think that people that only recently graduated or are residents are the only ones that care?

What you are not understanding is that we (The Vets) love this field. We actually know the field, as we work in the field. We have not worked for 1 year or 2 years. We've worked for 8-10-20 years in the field. What you don't get is that I get zero advocating for residentes (as we do in anonymous and in real life). What you don't get is that I have zero incentive to make things better. If I didn't care, I'd say nothing at all because saying nothing will continue to benefit me. Pre-COVID19, yes we all took a hit for many reasons, but people that have been in field 10 years are situated very well, have good jobs, make good money, are treated well. WE WANT YOU TO HAVE THAT. We don't want you to be in the @KHE88 situation. We don't want you doing fellowships and wasting your time. We don't want you gaslit by people on Twitter telling you all is well. It isn't well. It's SICK what happened to this field.

You keep saying I'm too far removed? Well, you are too much in the thick of it. You don't have the ability to see clearly yet, you are just past the fog of training, you have to convince yourself that everything is alright. Trust me, if I was in the thick of it, I would do it, too - self preservation is essential for humans. If you constantly kick yourself for making a bad decision and don't try to see the best in things, life will be unpleasant. I understand that.

But, do not be mistaken. We do not speak out for ourselves. I am fine. I have a few years to go, and I will ride off into the sunset having enjoyed an excellent career, healing many patients and having great pride in our specialty and the work I have done. If I wanted it to be terrible for you, if we wanted it to be terrible for you, we wouldn't speak up. There are lot of people doing things, working hard, interacting with people for the future residents. The fact that you don't see that is appalling and insulting.

You are here for the LULZ or whatever T F that means. This is field is sick and on its way to dying. We are here because we love this field and want it to be well. If we are as selfish as you think we are, what we would say is, "Everything is fine.. 200 should increase to 300 spots." I would say things like, "Fellowship will make you a better radiation oncologist." I would say, "APM is actually going to make you treat more efficiently AND earn you more money." I'd say "Yeah, even though we have fewer top applicants and possibly the lowest caliber in terms of grades/scores/publications, they are actually BETTER than applicants we've had in the best, because they care more."

The fact that you will never repay your debt to us, but more importantly, that you don't even realize that you have a debt to pay to us is one of the worst things that I see in current graduates.
 
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All new grads must bend the knee. Know thy place. Pay your debt.
 
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@ROFallingDown I was with you 100% until the last line. Pay a debt? New grads will pay that back when you're 10 years past the point of when you should've retired and being propped up by the youngins around you. It's like a south asian family. Young attendings see a large volume of (frequently) tough, complicated cases. Old attendings get to cherry pick the nice clean ones and are clinically less busy. You'll become an old attending, some day.
 
Nah. I save too much to ever be an old rad onc :)

And by debt? I just mean some respect. Like going to your elders feet (like in south Asian families)

evilbooyaa said:
@ROFallingDown I was with you 100% until the last line. Pay a debt? New grads will pay that back when you're 10 years past the point of when you should've retired and being propped up by the youngins around you. It's like a south asian family. Young attendings see a large volume of (frequently) tough, complicated cases. Old attendings get to cherry pick the nice clean ones and are clinically less busy. You'll become an old attending, some day.
Click to expand...
 
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ROFallingDown said:
Why do you think that people that only recently graduated or are residents are the only ones that care?

What you are not understanding is that we (The Vets) love this field. We actually know the field, as we work in the field. We have not worked for 1 year or 2 years. We've worked for 8-10-20 years in the field. What you don't get is that I get zero advocating for residentes (as we do in anonymous and in real life). What you don't get is that I have zero incentive to make things better. If I didn't care, I'd say nothing at all because saying nothing will continue to benefit me. Pre-COVID19, yes we all took a hit for many reasons, but people that have been in field 10 years are situated very well, have good jobs, make good money, are treated well. WE WANT YOU TO HAVE THAT. We don't want you to be in the @KHE88 situation. We don't want you doing fellowships and wasting your time. We don't want you gaslit by people on Twitter telling you all is well. It isn't well. It's SICK what happened to this field.

You keep saying I'm too far removed? Well, you are too much in the thick of it. You don't have the ability to see clearly yet, you are just past the fog of training, you have to convince yourself that everything is alright. Trust me, if I was in the thick of it, I would do it, too - self preservation is essential for humans. If you constantly kick yourself for making a bad decision and don't try to see the best in things, life will be unpleasant. I understand that.

But, do not be mistaken. We do not speak out for ourselves. I am fine. I have a few years to go, and I will ride off into the sunset having enjoyed an excellent career, healing many patients and having great pride in our specialty and the work I have done. If I wanted it to be terrible for you, if we wanted it to be terrible for you, we wouldn't speak up. There are lot of people doing things, working hard, interacting with people for the future residents. The fact that you don't see that is appalling and insulting.

You are here for the LULZ or whatever T F that means. This is field is sick and on its way to dying. We are here because we love this field and want it to be well. If we are as selfish as you think we are, what we would say is, "Everything is fine.. 200 should increase to 300 spots." I would say things like, "Fellowship will make you a better radiation oncologist." I would say, "APM is actually going to make you treat more efficiently AND earn you more money." I'd say "Yeah, even though we have fewer top applicants and possibly the lowest caliber in terms of grades/scores/publications, they are actually BETTER than applicants we've had in the best, because they care more."

The fact that you will never repay your debt to us, but more importantly, that you don't even realize that you have a debt to pay to us is one of the worst things that I see in current graduates.
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Something tells me your kids ignore your WhatsApp messages and when they do reply, it’s to tell that Modi sucks and to stop with the posts about him.
 
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