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Why do you think that people that only recently graduated or are residents are the only ones that care?

What you are not understanding is that we (The Vets) love this field. We actually know the field, as we work in the field. We have not worked for 1 year or 2 years. We've worked for 8-10-20 years in the field. What you don't get is that I get zero advocating for residentes (as we do in anonymous and in real life). What you don't get is that I have zero incentive to make things better. If I didn't care, I'd say nothing at all because saying nothing will continue to benefit me. Pre-COVID19, yes we all took a hit for many reasons, but people that have been in field 10 years are situated very well, have good jobs, make good money, are treated well. WE WANT YOU TO HAVE THAT. We don't want you to be in the @KHE88 situation. We don't want you doing fellowships and wasting your time. We don't want you gaslit by people on Twitter telling you all is well. It isn't well. It's SICK what happened to this field.

You keep saying I'm too far removed? Well, you are too much in the thick of it. You don't have the ability to see clearly yet, you are just past the fog of training, you have to convince yourself that everything is alright. Trust me, if I was in the thick of it, I would do it, too - self preservation is essential for humans. If you constantly kick yourself for making a bad decision and don't try to see the best in things, life will be unpleasant. I understand that.

But, do not be mistaken. We do not speak out for ourselves. I am fine. I have a few years to go, and I will ride off into the sunset having enjoyed an excellent career, healing many patients and having great pride in our specialty and the work I have done. If I wanted it to be terrible for you, if we wanted it to be terrible for you, we wouldn't speak up. There are lot of people doing things, working hard, interacting with people for the future residents. The fact that you don't see that is appalling and insulting.

You are here for the LULZ or whatever T F that means. This is field is sick and on its way to dying. We are here because we love this field and want it to be well. If we are as selfish as you think we are, what we would say is, "Everything is fine.. 200 should increase to 300 spots." I would say things like, "Fellowship will make you a better radiation oncologist." I would say, "APM is actually going to make you treat more efficiently AND earn you more money." I'd say "Yeah, even though we have fewer top applicants and possibly the lowest caliber in terms of grades/scores/publications, they are actually BETTER than applicants we've had in the best, because they care more."

The fact that you will never repay your debt to us, but more importantly, that you don't even realize that you have a debt to pay to us is one of the worst things that I see in current graduates.
 

evilbooyaa

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@ROFallingDown I was with you 100% until the last line. Pay a debt? New grads will pay that back when you're 10 years past the point of when you should've retired and being propped up by the youngins around you. It's like a south asian family. Young attendings see a large volume of (frequently) tough, complicated cases. Old attendings get to cherry pick the nice clean ones and are clinically less busy. You'll become an old attending, some day.
 
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OP
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Nah. I save too much to ever be an old rad onc :)

And by debt? I just mean some respect. Like going to your elders feet (like in south Asian families)

@ROFallingDown I was with you 100% until the last line. Pay a debt? New grads will pay that back when you're 10 years past the point of when you should've retired and being propped up by the youngins around you. It's like a south asian family. Young attendings see a large volume of (frequently) tough, complicated cases. Old attendings get to cherry pick the nice clean ones and are clinically less busy. You'll become an old attending, some day.
 
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PhotonBomb

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Why do you think that people that only recently graduated or are residents are the only ones that care?

What you are not understanding is that we (The Vets) love this field. We actually know the field, as we work in the field. We have not worked for 1 year or 2 years. We've worked for 8-10-20 years in the field. What you don't get is that I get zero advocating for residentes (as we do in anonymous and in real life). What you don't get is that I have zero incentive to make things better. If I didn't care, I'd say nothing at all because saying nothing will continue to benefit me. Pre-COVID19, yes we all took a hit for many reasons, but people that have been in field 10 years are situated very well, have good jobs, make good money, are treated well. WE WANT YOU TO HAVE THAT. We don't want you to be in the @KHE88 situation. We don't want you doing fellowships and wasting your time. We don't want you gaslit by people on Twitter telling you all is well. It isn't well. It's SICK what happened to this field.

You keep saying I'm too far removed? Well, you are too much in the thick of it. You don't have the ability to see clearly yet, you are just past the fog of training, you have to convince yourself that everything is alright. Trust me, if I was in the thick of it, I would do it, too - self preservation is essential for humans. If you constantly kick yourself for making a bad decision and don't try to see the best in things, life will be unpleasant. I understand that.

But, do not be mistaken. We do not speak out for ourselves. I am fine. I have a few years to go, and I will ride off into the sunset having enjoyed an excellent career, healing many patients and having great pride in our specialty and the work I have done. If I wanted it to be terrible for you, if we wanted it to be terrible for you, we wouldn't speak up. There are lot of people doing things, working hard, interacting with people for the future residents. The fact that you don't see that is appalling and insulting.

You are here for the LULZ or whatever T F that means. This is field is sick and on its way to dying. We are here because we love this field and want it to be well. If we are as selfish as you think we are, what we would say is, "Everything is fine.. 200 should increase to 300 spots." I would say things like, "Fellowship will make you a better radiation oncologist." I would say, "APM is actually going to make you treat more efficiently AND earn you more money." I'd say "Yeah, even though we have fewer top applicants and possibly the lowest caliber in terms of grades/scores/publications, they are actually BETTER than applicants we've had in the best, because they care more."

The fact that you will never repay your debt to us, but more importantly, that you don't even realize that you have a debt to pay to us is one of the worst things that I see in current graduates.

Something tells me your kids ignore your WhatsApp messages and when they do reply, it’s to tell that Modi sucks and to stop with the posts about him.
 
OP
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Something tells me your kids ignore your WhatsApp messages and when they do reply, it’s to tell that Modi sucks and to stop with the posts about him.
You can disrespect me, but don't you talk poorly about Modi !! He was and is a hero to all! Without him and his Chinese good buddy, where would we be today? They singlehandly revived the market for a beloved item loved worldwide.
 

evilbooyaa

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Something tells me your kids ignore your WhatsApp messages and when they do reply, it’s to tell that Modi sucks and to stop with the posts about him.
Man lots of weird attacks on ROFallingDown as a person recently.

Maybe us youngins (myself included) should engage in discourse on the issues, not simply go after someone as a person.
 

radiation

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Let me take the contrarian approach here and try to argue for the "quality" of applicants this year. Without a doubt, this year's match probably faced the most negative sentiment towards rad onc out of the last 10-15 years. There were anonymous twitter trolls, reddit posts, and probably a record number of negative posts in this very forum about why choosing rad onc in today's market would be a terrible idea financially, geographically, etc. Despite that, there were a number of very smart, motivated students that saw all that negative and made the decision that it is worth the risk because this is something they want to do for their career. I will take a motivated resident any day of any intelligence level, you don't have to be a genius to be a good radiation oncologist. We collected all the smartest, highest board scoring graduates with MD/PhDs for years, did that help our field? What measurable impact did all those superstar candidates do for our field?

Please spare me any replies about how naive or uninformed the current matched students might have been, or how they were "tricked" by the circlejerk social media cheerleaders. Give them more credit than that.
 
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RickyScott

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Let me take the contrarian approach here and try to argue for the "quality" of applicants this year. Without a doubt, this year's match probably faced the most negative sentiment towards rad onc out of the last 10-15 years. There were anonymous twitter trolls, reddit posts, and probably a record number of negative posts in this very forum about why choosing rad onc in today's market would be a terrible idea financially, geographically, etc. Despite that, there were a number of very smart, motivated students that saw all that negative and made the decision that it is worth the risk because this is something they want to do for their career. I will take a motivated resident any day of any intelligence level, you don't have to be a genius to be a good radiation oncologist. We collected all the smartest, highest board scoring graduates with MD/PhDs for years, did that help our field? What measurable impact did all those superstar candidates do for our field?

Please spare me any replies about how naive or uninformed the current matched students might have been, or how they were "tricked" by the circlejerk social media cheerleaders. Give them more credit than that.
My guess is some of applicants are under spell of sunk cost fallacy. They had invested a few years in this and didn’t want to bail. Others simply blindly believe their mentors that everything will turn out ok (just like when corona virus was only in China in Jan). And some are just dumb- several gleefully exude stupidity on twitter.Btw You can be a genius and motivated and a good person. Again, a goodness constant does not exist such that if you excel in one area it must come at the trade off of another.

Next years match will be more telling because sunk cost will be much less
 
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PhotonBomb

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My guess is some of applicants are under spell of sunk cost fallacy. They had invested a few years in this and didn’t want to bail. Others simply blindly believe their mentors that everything will turn out ok (just like when corona virus was only in China in Jan). And some are just dumb- several gleefully exude stupidity on twitter.Btw You can be a genius and motivated and a good person. Again, a goodness constant does not exist such that if you excel in one area it must come at the trade off of another.

Next years match will be more telling because sunk cost will be much less
Radiation : ‘give them some credit’
RickyScott : ‘no, I’m gonna ridicule the **** out of them’
 
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medgator

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Let me take the contrarian approach here and try to argue for the "quality" of applicants this year. Without a doubt, this year's match probably faced the most negative sentiment towards rad onc out of the last 10-15 years. There were anonymous twitter trolls, reddit posts, and probably a record number of negative posts in this very forum about why choosing rad onc in today's market would be a terrible idea financially, geographically, etc. Despite that, there were a number of very smart, motivated students that saw all that negative and made the decision that it is worth the risk because this is something they want to do for their career. I will take a motivated resident any day of any intelligence level, you don't have to be a genius to be a good radiation oncologist. We collected all the smartest, highest board scoring graduates with MD/PhDs for years, did that help our field? What measurable impact did all those superstar candidates do for our field?

Please spare me any replies about how naive or uninformed the current matched students might have been, or how they were "tricked" by the circlejerk social media cheerleaders. Give them more credit than that.
Only 2/3 of ths years class was US MD. Not sure what you are trying to brag about here? Matching the best and brightest got us better clinicians and better visibility of the field, vs the basement dwelling rad onc technicians we all know from the 70s and 80s.

When all is said and done, the stats this year and going forward are only going to worsen while folks like KO continue to gaslight about how great the current years matches are, and how decreasing step scores are a good thing in RO.

I don't see how being a safety specialty for FMGs improves our specialty (the competitive ones probably will go into a specialty with more geographic availability and increasing salaries like psych).
 
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2/3 of the class was US MD. Not sure what you are trying to brag about here?

When all is said and done, the stats this year and going forward are only going to worsen while folks like KO continue to gaslight about how great the current years matches are
I’m sorry but this is the perfect example of a knee-jerk post. Could have been in reply to anything, but it certainly was not a reply to Radiation’s reasonable post.
 

medgator

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I’m sorry but this is the perfect example of a knee-jerk post. Could have been in reply to anything, but it certainly was not a reply to Radiation’s reasonable post.
Just quit while you're behind
 

PhotonBomb

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2/3 of the class was US MD. Not sure what you are trying to brag about here?

When all is said and done, the stats this year and going forward are only going to worsen while folks like KO continue to gaslight about how great the current years matches are, and how decreasing step scores are a good thing in RO.
Radiation : says some stuff
Medgator: non-sequitur
 

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OP
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Look it’s rough and tumble here. People are fired up. Just want readers to know, even if you disagree with me, I’m ready to have a proper debate and to stand up for residents and young doctors. I have your back regardless of the slurs and disrespect.
 

w00tz

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Let me take the contrarian approach here and try to argue for the "quality" of applicants this year. Without a doubt, this year's match probably faced the most negative sentiment towards rad onc out of the last 10-15 years. There were anonymous twitter trolls, reddit posts, and probably a record number of negative posts in this very forum about why choosing rad onc in today's market would be a terrible idea financially, geographically, etc. Despite that, there were a number of very smart, motivated students that saw all that negative and made the decision that it is worth the risk because this is something they want to do for their career. I will take a motivated resident any day of any intelligence level, you don't have to be a genius to be a good radiation oncologist. We collected all the smartest, highest board scoring graduates with MD/PhDs for years, did that help our field? What measurable impact did all those superstar candidates do for our field?

Please spare me any replies about how naive or uninformed the current matched students might have been, or how they were "tricked" by the circlejerk social media cheerleaders. Give them more credit than that.
I'll give this crop of med students some credit for dedication. Despite a lot of SDNers efforts to get students not to apply with all the horror stories, graphs/stats and hyperbole - they still went for it! I, myself, would not have applied this year given all the uncertainty. So these students may be more dedicated than me. But I've seen dedicated residents get jaded over time when the specialty jerks them around over and over. When you give and give, but get nothing in return. 2018 boards debacle, increasing difficulty finding desirable jobs, train at a malignant program or one that doesn't teach or care, declining reimbursements, abusive workplaces run by boomers, etc. Just look at radoncgrad2019. Once a happy go lucky person and now just bitter after residency.

Regarding the top applicants from the previous era, I think you still need to give them a chance. They will be assuming more leadership roles in 5-10 years and hopefully that will move us into a better position as a field. I'm Mr. Optimistic!
 
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Let me take the contrarian approach here and try to argue for the "quality" of applicants this year. Without a doubt, this year's match probably faced the most negative sentiment towards rad onc out of the last 10-15 years. There were anonymous twitter trolls, reddit posts, and probably a record number of negative posts in this very forum about why choosing rad onc in today's market would be a terrible idea financially, geographically, etc. Despite that, there were a number of very smart, motivated students that saw all that negative and made the decision that it is worth the risk because this is something they want to do for their career. I will take a motivated resident any day of any intelligence level, you don't have to be a genius to be a good radiation oncologist. We collected all the smartest, highest board scoring graduates with MD/PhDs for years, did that help our field? What measurable impact did all those superstar candidates do for our field?

Please spare me any replies about how naive or uninformed the current matched students might have been, or how they were "tricked" by the circlejerk social media cheerleaders. Give them more credit than that.
I think most of this is probably true. I'm sure there is plenty of dedication in this year's class as well as years prior and future.

But don't go on twitter and pretend this was all by design. "We overemphasized research. We cared too much about board score. We missed some really great candidates in the past. Now we are righting the ship and ignoring other things except for dedication"

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. When competitiveness goes down you don't have the luxury of using these screening metrics.

Must be tough for these PDs though. They use to have people begging to get a spot. All their useless research was completed dutifully by medical students. Now they have to recruit. They have to be the beggars.
 

RickyScott

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I think most of this is probably true. I'm sure there is plenty of dedication in this year's class as well as years prior and future.

But don't go on twitter and pretend this was all by design. "We overemphasized research. We cared too much about board score. We missed some really great candidates in the past. Now we are righting the ship and ignoring other things except for dedication"

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. When competitiveness goes down you don't have the luxury of using these screening metrics.

Must be tough for these PDs though. They use to have people begging to get a spot. All their useless research was completed dutifully by medical students. Now they have to recruit. They have to be the beggars.
But, she has a really nice smile.
 
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RickyScott

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Agreed with all of the above

The other defense I've heard is "there is nothing wrong with having a high amount of FMG"

I want to clear up that none of us are against FMG per se, but that is absolutely an indicator of specialty competitiveness. No reason for hurt feelings
Other than path what specialties have lower percent match of us mds.
 
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thecarbonionangle

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Clever, moderator. Keep up the insults. Bang up job! Good role model for the young ones out here that have completely stopped debating ideas.
I’ll take this opportunity while the subject is germane: do you like avocado toast? What about fish sticks? I keep hearing that boomers may not like them? Honestly very curious about your thoughts
 

radoncdoc16

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Other than path what specialties have lower percent match of us mds.
historically been pathology, family med, Peds, internal med, neurology, psych with a sizable chunk of FMG

radiology used to be on there and still has a chunk of non US MDs but improving rapidly

rad Onc used to be on there before 3DCRT then improved rapidly now regressing

derm, plastic, ortho, neurosurgery still have very strong rates of US MDs
 
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medgator

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historically been pathology, family med, Peds, internal med, neurology with a sizable chunk of FMG

radiology used to be on there and still has a chunk of non US MDs but improving rapidly

rad Onc used to be on there before 3DCRT then improved rapidly now regressing

derm, plastic, ortho, neurosurgery still have very strong rates of US MDs
Psych is more competitive than rad onc. Used to be an FMG haven a decade ago
 
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I’ll take this opportunity while the subject is germane: do you like avocado toast? What about fish sticks? I keep hearing that boomers may not like them? Honestly very curious about your thoughts
Like fish sticks and avocado toast. I like fish sticks with sriracha mixed with ketchup. I like avocado toast at brunch with young people that complain about work (on a Tuesday afternoon, because .. that’s what work means, now).
 

thecarbonionangle

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Like fish sticks and avocado toast. I like fish sticks with sriracha mixed with ketchup. I like avocado toast at brunch with young people that complain about work (on a Tuesday afternoon, because .. that’s what work means, now).
man some chap said you were a bad south asian, based on your liking of spicy ketchup you don’t sound too bad, mate.
 
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evilbooyaa

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OK enough of the fish sticks discussion folks. Let's get back on-topic.
I think OK boomer was mostly tongue-in-cheek ROFallingDown (I'm shortening that to ROFD going forward). Although if you were truly offended, then perhaps it's not so far off base.
 
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RadOncDoc21

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Like fish sticks and avocado toast. I like fish sticks with sriracha mixed with ketchup. I like avocado toast at brunch with young people that complain about work (on a Tuesday afternoon, because .. that’s what work means, now).
Try Siracha and mayonnaise... changed my life! Oh shoot sorry, let me get back on topic... rad onc still great field just poor leaders.
 

evilbooyaa

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OK, no more stuff that is blatantly off-topic. Next time, warnings will be handed out. 2 posts deleted.
 

Mandelin Rain

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Only thing I ask of boomers and old Gen X’ers is they retire already.

Your time has passed
I mean I straddle Gen X and Millennial (Oregon Trail Gen FTW), so I don't have too much of a dog in this fight, but it'd be harder to find a more millennial sentiment than this post.

"I'm not really asking much. Just that you give up your chosen profession and livelihood. Because, I know better than you. Based solely on my own belief."
 

medgator

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I mean I straddle Gen X and Millennial (Oregon Trail Gen FTW), so I don't have too much of a dog in this fight, but it'd be harder to find a more millennial sentiment than this post.

"I'm not really asking much. Just that you give up your chosen profession and livelihood. Because, I know better than you. Based solely on my own belief."
As a late Gen Xer, we definitely seem to be the most grounded generation by far. Lots of whiners when it comes to boomers or millennials, although to be fair, the boomers, being the most selfish generation probably ever, have no room to whine
 

PhotonBomb

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I mean I straddle Gen X and Millennial (Oregon Trail Gen FTW), so I don't have too much of a dog in this fight, but it'd be harder to find a more millennial sentiment than this post.

"I'm not really asking much. Just that you give up your chosen profession and livelihood. Because, I know better than you. Based solely on my own belief."
Relax man.

JFC.
 
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I mean I straddle Gen X and Millennial (Oregon Trail Gen FTW), so I don't have too much of a dog in this fight, but it'd be harder to find a more millennial sentiment than this post.

"I'm not really asking much. Just that you give up your chosen profession and livelihood. Because, I know better than you. Based solely on my own belief."
Nobody's other belief could be right. And, the way to combat those beliefs is to mock/belittle/insult those people. Or, say "okay, boomer". Or a tweet a ****ing meme. That is the "worst generation's" contribution to society. Responding to everything with a meme.

I 100% realize I'm setting myself for both an 1) "okay boomer" and 2) a meme

Because millennial.
 

Doctorer

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I mean I straddle Gen X and Millennial (Oregon Trail Gen FTW), so I don't have too much of a dog in this fight, but it'd be harder to find a more millennial sentiment than this post.

"I'm not really asking much. Just that you give up your chosen profession and livelihood. Because, I know better than you. Based solely on my own belief."
Ugh. As a millennial, is there anything MORE millennial than trying to further subdivide your millennial generation just to show just how unique you really are?
 

thecarbonionangle

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Nobody's other belief could be right. And, the way to combat those beliefs is to mock/belittle/insult those people. Or, say "okay, boomer". Or a tweet a ****ing meme. That is the "worst generation's" contribution to society. Responding to everything with a meme.

I 100% realize I'm setting myself for both an 1) "okay boomer" and 2) a meme

Because millennial.
you’re practically begging for a meme here, like its almost wrong not too. Someone help this brotha out
 
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Mandelin Rain

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Ugh. As a millennial, is there anything MORE millennial than trying to further subdivide your millennial generation just to show just how unique you really are?
I love this post.

Though, it should be noted that most members of the Oregon Trail Generation aka Generation Catalano aka Xennials identify more with Gen Xers than Millennials, with just a sprinkle of bright eyed optimism.
 
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