Rallying My Fellow URMs: PART 2

[Selisa]

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good luck! go get 'em!

 

[lotanna]

Thanks people!! i'll keep y'all posted. All i can say is regardless of your situation dont ever let anyone say u cant do it. If i had listened to the majority on SDN, I'd be retaking the MCAT again, but God works miracles!!

 

[famousdoc2b]

Lotanna, yes, God does work miracles. It is your season🙂

 

[doc08]

Has anyone heard anything from Meharry recently?

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by doc08
Has anyone heard anything from Meharry recently?

No, I've been complete there for like 5weeks or so now.

@famousdoc2b, 4 sho, its like manna from heaven 😀

 

[pathdr2b]

Another FYI for URM applicants, make sure the school you apply to can provide you strong support. This is usually done through an Office of Minority Affairs.

 

[Raptor]

Originally posted by lotanna
Thanks, I'm like so excited, like a soldier in battle, getting ready for war 😀

I don't usually post on SDN, but I had to congratulate lotanna, you are the epitome of hard work and determination. Climb over the interview wall soldier and rest on the acceptance field because your hard work will pay off. But don't rest too long because you have the medical school wall to climb over. With God's speed soldier you will definetly do it. We all are cheering you on lotanna.

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by Raptor
I don't usually post on SDN, but I had to congratulate lotanna, you are the epitome of hard work and determination. Climb over the interview wall soldier and rest on the acceptance field because your hard work will pay off. But don't rest too long because you have the medical school wall to climb over. With God's speed soldier you will definetly do it. We all are cheering you on lotanna.

hey whats up😛 I saw your # on my cell from yesterday,missed call and was going to call back last night, but then got carried away practicing. Then it was 2:30am, and next thing i knew it was 6am, and time to get ready for work
We'll be talking soon today or 2morrow, thursday and next week 😀 At least thats the plan.
Thanks for ur words of encouragement, its all a game, just have to play my cards right. 🙂

 

[Jamaican MD]

Lotanna! Don't keep us in suspense! How did the interview go??

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by Jamaican MD
Lotanna! Don't keep us in suspense! How did the interview go??

Thanks 4 asking ! It went great!! I was more than prepared for it, and was VERY relaxed and it was more or less conversational. I even extended the interview time slot a bit, cause I figure hey I've to impress the heck out of them in this period, its all about me 😀
I find out in a matter of hours or so, PRAYING and CONFIDENT 🙂

 

[lotanna]

Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy I got in to Michigan STate College of Human Medicine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Received the wonderful phone call from Dr Shafer about 10mins ago, at 8pm!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup its official, looks like I'm about to be a green and white MSU Spartan for life, undergrad,masters and med schl!!

Its taken 2.5yrs since undergrad, and takin that %&&%^&* exam known as the MCAT more times than most anyone I know!

Even with a sub par MCAT score, under 30, a sub par undergrad GPA, under 3.0, I was able to get in! So I say it can be done.
The phone call woke me up from my sleep and I'm still kinda disoriented, so maybe tomorrow i'll fully understand what it all means. Funny thing was that I was over confident and expected to get in, I knew how hard I had worked to correct my mistakes.

Yup, to all who crack up on people like me on SDN and tell them to pursue some other health careers....BOOOYAAAAHH, I'm bout to be a M1, fresh off my 24th bday with a masters degree in hand 😀

And if some insane SDNer starts askin my URM status, Its bout to be on and poppin 🙄

 

[doc08]

Congratulations!!!!!! Good luck at MSU.

 

[mdqueen]

Hey Lotanna,

It's been a long while since I've been on here, but I definitely remember you from last year. I am so happy for you, and I know you'll be really happy at Michigan St., an awesome school. Dreams really do come true...and by the way, make sure you hit the ground running when you start!

Congrats Dr. Lotanna!!! 🙂 🙂

mdqueen (formerly known as cbpremed)

 

[bullhorn]

Originally posted by lotanna
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy I got in to Michigan STate College of Human Medicine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Received the wonderful phone call from Dr Shafer about 10mins ago, at 8pm!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup its official, looks like I'm about to be a green and white MSU Spartan for life, undergrad,masters and med schl!!

Its taken 2.5yrs since undergrad, and takin that %&&%^&* exam known as the MCAT more times than most anyone I know!

Even with a sub par MCAT score, under 30, a sub par undergrad GPA, under 3.0, I was able to get in! So I say it can be done.
The phone call woke me up from my sleep and I'm still kinda disoriented, so maybe tomorrow i'll fully understand what it all means. Funny thing was that I was over confident and expected to get in, I knew how hard I had worked to correct my mistakes.

Yup, to all who crack up on people like me on SDN and tell them to pursue some other health careers....BOOOYAAAAHH, I'm bout to be a M1, fresh off my 24th bday with a masters degree in hand 😀

And if some insane SDNer starts askin my URM status, Its bout to be on and poppin 🙄

Congrats!!!

I am so happy for you..I have been lurking around this board forever and I know what a tremendous journey it has been for you. I assure you, your determination and will convinces me you will be an excellent physician far more than anyone's "stellar" GPA or MCAT score. Congratulations again....

By the way..on the URM thing..Don't worry..I got your back!!!! 😎

 

[lotanna]

Thanks everyone!!
@mdqueen, feelin the change of name 😛 I remember u from last yr, u got accepted to MSU as well, how did ur 1st semester at UCLA go?
@bullhorn, thanks, maybe if this weekend i'll be so drunk, i'll actually post my stats, and give SDN a field day. Till then its not happening, lets just call it a MIRACLE story 😀

 

[ndi_amaka]

Originally posted by lotanna


And if some insane SDNer starts askin my URM status, Its bout to be on and poppin 🙄

ROFLMAO

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by ndi_amaka
ROFLMAO

you know it 😀

 

[cocoabutter]

Congratulations, lotanna!!
I am so happy for you. I know that you worked hard and have waited a long time for this....

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by cocoabutter
Congratulations, lotanna!!
I am so happy for you. I know that you worked hard and have waited a long time for this....

Thanks cocoabutter, u were an inspiration to me last yr, knowing I was not alone!! Hope Wake Forest is treatin u kindly, with 1st semester down, u should be a veteran, so pls pass on any tips 😛

 

[mdqueen]

Hey Latonna,
UCLA is pretty good. I have my block final today at 3 pm. This curriculum has been interesting, and some parts are more organized than others. Overall I love the integrated curriculum and all the students in my class are so cool (which is a blessing). Well, we'll see how I feel after the final. Hopefully I get that P!


Shout out to cocoabutter, how is Wake?? Good to see all the people from last year doing well.

mdqueen

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by mdqueen
Hey Latonna,
UCLA is pretty good. I have my block final today at 3 pm. This curriculum has been interesting, and some parts are more organized than others. Overall I love the integrated curriculum and all the students in my class are so cool (which is a blessing). Well, we'll see how I feel after the final. Hopefully I get that P!


Shout out to cocoabutter, how is Wake?? Good to see all the people from last year doing well.

mdqueen

Keep on keepin on, we goin make it

 

[cocoabutter]

right back at you, mdqueen 🙂

glad everything is going well with you. i am also feeling the name change.

all is good here. i *should* be studying for the test that i have friday, but as usual, i am procrastinating majorly. wake is good. we have a ton of fun. i would recommend it to anyone.

 

[divinemsm]

Go lotanna......it's your birthday !.........Okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!
Shout out to you ma, member of the Class of 2008 !

 

[OrthoFixation]

Originally posted by lotanna
Even with a sub par MCAT score, under 30, a sub par undergrad GPA, under 3.0, I was able to get in! So I say it can be done.

And if some insane SDNer starts askin my URM status, Its bout to be on and poppin 🙄

First, congratulations on your acceptance.🙂 It sounds as you have made repeated efforts and finally overcome the hurdle. Kudos to you.

Second, the URM status question pops up because it can impact your ability to gain admission. URMs can get in with lesser numbers than the general population. URMs will also have more scholarship opportunities since schools are competing for this sub-group. Of course, all of us would take any available advantage(s) in the admissions process, if one is available.

My question: What percentage of minority make-up is needed to be considered a minority? I have seen that both MCAT and AMCAS indicate minority designation is a self-described category and requires no proof for eligibility. With the blending of minor/major groups, what is the threshold required for this status? From the MCAT/AMCAS perspective, it is not defined.

% minority.......% caucasion.............Considered a minority?
.....0........................100.................................No
...100.........................0...................................Yes
.....75........................25..................................???
.....49........................51..................................???
.....25........................75..................................???
.......1........................99..................................???

This is a serious question and would appreciate you opinions. I have substantial Native American heritage, although less than half. Could I apply as URM? 😕

 

[mdqueen]

As long as you can prove your native heritage, you could qualify as URM. As for the above comment....remember that not ALL URM students have sub-par GPA and MCATs and if some do, you also have to take into account that some of us don't have the money for prep courses, or in my case had a crappy primary and secondary school education in the inner city. This does definitely make a difference in the quality of education and having to catch up and learn things that most other people have learned in better schools. By the way, I did have an MCAT 30+ and had a GPA over 3.0, and I'm a URM.....

 

[OrthoFixation]

I am not intimating URM=crappy stats. That would be naive. I am just wondering what the reasonable limits of this URM designation might be. I too came from a less than stellar background and am the first college graduate in my family. Thanks....any other opinions?

 

[bullhorn]

Originally posted by OrthoFixation
First, congratulations on your acceptance.🙂 It sounds as you have made repeated efforts and finally overcome the hurdle. Kudos to you.

Second, the URM status question pops up because it can impact your ability to gain admission. URMs can get in with lesser numbers than the general population. URMs will also have more scholarship opportunities since schools are competing for this sub-group. Of course, all of us would take any available advantage(s) in the admissions process, if one is available.

My question: What percentage of minority make-up is needed to be considered a minority? I have seen that both MCAT and AMCAS indicate minority designation is a self-described category and requires no proof for eligibility. With the blending of minor/major groups, what is the threshold required for this status? From the MCAT/AMCAS perspective, it is not defined.

% minority.......% caucasion.............Considered a minority?
.....0........................100.................................No
...100.........................0...................................Yes
.....75........................25..................................???
.....49........................51..................................???
.....25........................75..................................???
.......1........................99..................................???

This is a serious question and would appreciate you opinions. I have substantial Native American heritage, although less than half. Could I apply as URM? 😕

Interesting question....although the truth of the matter is that most African American people (from this country) are not 100% minority...many have substantial native american heritage but can't claim it and the vast majority have caucasion heritage as well. In terms of being Native American, you picked the wrong thing to have 'substantial heritage' because regardless of what you look like, you still have to prove your heritage.

Now, if you were talking about another minority.....say someone half African American and half Caucasion...I think it depends on the person. According to the 'one drop' sentiment held by the old south, that person (even if they didn't think so) would be considered BLACK. Nowadays when people can choose either or both, and believe me people do, I say the moral thing to do is to fill the application out based on how you feel. For example, there are many biracial (AA and Cau for these purposes) people who do not acknowledge their African American heritage. (back in the day considered 'passing') I would HOPE that person had the integrity to select how they feel in 'real life'. Since the point of increasing URM numbers is to have more URM doctors to better serve that population (at least according to the AAMC), I would argue that this person is even LESS likely to fill this void than the average AA. Some people will feel they are both equally and should probably check the boxes accordingly and will more likely be given 'urm status'. Finally there will be people that only identify with their AA heritage and that person will/should check the box accordingly. I dont think its cut and dry at all, but a self identifier is just that....what the person identifies with. Putting something false would not comply with the 'certification' of the application that everything you have written was true.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by lotanna
Its taken 2.5yrs since undergrad, and takin that %&&%^&* exam known as the MCAT more times than most anyone I know!
Even with a sub par MCAT score, under 30, a sub par undergrad GPA, under 3.0, I was able to get in! So I say it can be done.

CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!

As for your "qualifications", I can't think of a better quality in a physician than TENACITY !!!!

Good luck to you !!!!!

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!

As for your "qualifications", I can't think of a better quality in a physician than TENACITY !!!!

Good luck to you !!!!!

Thanks 🙂
@Ortho, i think it has a lot to do with what the person identifies with

 

[Treg]

Here is an excellent article from a Harvard professor outlining the history/purpose of URM status for medical admissions:


http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6920/3/6

Provides the argument with proof against many of the non-URM complaints about the process.

🙂

Treg

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

non-URM complaints:

1) URMs are held to lower standards
2) Middle class and rich URMs are beneficiaries
3) non-URMs are deprived of their civil rights

I can't seem to find anything in that article that refutes these complaints.

 

[Treg]

1) URMs are held to lower standards

"There is no evidence to attribute high undergraduate GPAs or MCAT scores to exceptional academic performance during medical school or more importantly to a great level of quality health care a student ultimately provides as a practitioner."

and

"Race-conscious programs allow for the factoring of societal or group-based adversity into medical school admission selection process. In addition, there is a pronounced need for diversification in the health care industry to meet the needs of underserved populations, to be more representative of increasing multiculturalism, and to accelerate the progress of biomedical research. There are an abundance of medical disparities on the basis of race and ethnicity that affect society as a whole. By continuing to implementing race-conscious affirmative action programs, these disparities will also continue to decrease "

2) Middle class and rich URMs are beneficiaries

"Although low income level is an additional factor, minority students from middle-class families have been shown to have lower academic achievement as a measured by GPA and SAT scores than whites and Asians [13,14]. Such evidence of disparity between minority and non-minority groups reveal the immense social, educational, cultural, and economic forces still operating along racial lines in this country."

3) non-URMs are deprived of their civil rights

"Despite the same insurance, income, and medical conditions, a congressionally commissioned report of the National Institutes of Medicine (NIH) [25] suggests that minorities are often left with fewer diagnostic tests, less sophisticated treatments, and ultimately inferior care. These intolerable racial disparities in medicine can be diminished by diversity of medical practitioners who treat underrepresented minorities, in addition to financial incentives for those who practice in such environments. Minority physicians are more likely to enter primary care specialties, work in underserved and disadvantaged areas, and provide health care to the medically indigent, irrespective of a patient's race or ethnicity, thereby reducing the racial and ethnic health disparities."

What about the rights of these patients?

To suggest that non-URMs are being "devprived of their civil rights" is foolish when you consider that a lower proportion of URM applicants are matriculating compared to the non-URM pool.

URM: 2189/5331=41.06% matriculation
nonURM: 14349/29455=48.71% matriculation

You do the math: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2003/mcatgparaceeth.htm

I think that you would benefit from a course on scientific literature deconstruction. 😉

Treg

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

1. "There is no evidence to attribute high undergraduate GPAs or MCAT scores ......"

In other words, URMs are held to lower GPA/MCAT standards.


2. "Although low income level is an additional factor, minority students from middle-class families.... "

In other words, middle class URMs are beneficiaries.


3. "...you consider that a lower proportion of URM applicants are matriculating..."

Civil rights is the guarantee that your race will not be used against you at the point of competition.
Civil rights is not the guarantee that members of your race does well at the point of competition.
Are non-URMs' race being used against them at the point of competition? Yes
Are their civil rights being violated? Yes


Would you support legislation that would require beneficiaries of AA to practice in underserved communities? Would you support expanding the AA/underserved applicant pool to non-URMs if they too are required to practice in underserved communities? Wouldn't underserved communites get better doctors if AA drew from a pool of both URM and non-URM applicants rather than from just a pool of URM applicants?

 

[strangeattractor]

i thought i'd jump into the discussion a little late and reply from a supportive position...i would say those who really have a problem with aa for the most part have a problem with dismantling priveledge because they already clearly benefit from their birthright. one person mentioned civil rights being violated by aa...which is quite a ridiculous display of fallacy if i've ever seen one. reverse discrimination? what a joke. until true (and by this i mean equality has been reached) reparations are made with everyone of an underpriveledged position, including those of a lower socioeconomic class in addition to those who fit the traditional urm definition, reverse discrimination is yet a tool of the priveledged to retain power and clout. obviously if we are to achieve a state of civil equality, those with a disproportionate amount of power and status will need to relinquish some. that's just the law of conservation.

that said, i feel aa at the university or graduate level needs to implemented while also putting money and effort into early education, and more importantly, community reinforcement.

i was going to respond to ryo-ohki's message, but feel it would be a useless exercise in rhetoric to try and make sense of fallacy (see above).

 

[pathdr2b]

Time to give another "shout out" to the the wonderful world of research. Here's a NIH link http://www.training.nih.gov/. Those that are interested, please PM me !!!!

 

[care bear]

Originally posted by strangeattractor
i thought i'd jump into the discussion a little late and reply from a supportive position...i would say those who really have a problem with aa for the most part have a problem with dismantling priveledge because they already clearly benefit from their birthright. one person mentioned civil rights being violated by aa...which is quite a ridiculous display of fallacy if i've ever seen one. reverse discrimination? what a joke. until true (and by this i mean equality has been reached) reparations are made with everyone of an underpriveledged position, including those of a lower socioeconomic class in addition to those who fit the traditional urm definition, reverse discrimination is yet a tool of the priveledged to retain power and clout. obviously if we are to achieve a state of civil equality, those with a disproportionate amount of power and status will need to relinquish some. that's just the law of conservation.

that said, i feel aa at the university or graduate level needs to implemented while also putting money and effort into early education, and more importantly, community reinforcement.

i was going to respond to ryo-ohki's message, but feel it would be a useless exercise in rhetoric to try and make sense of fallacy (see above).

i think i love you.

not just for the content of what you're saying, but that was incredibly well-stated and succinct.

 

[bullhorn]

Rho-Ohki please find your own thread and stop tainting a positive one. I am SOOOOO tired of hearing about your URM complaints. When are you going to get into medical school and be too busy to respond?

Lotanna, its unfortunate your celebration has turned into YET ANOTHER AA/URM thread. Why must URMS constantly struggle to find havens to support each other? SIGH

 

[Gbemi24]

Originally posted by strangeattractor
i thought i'd jump into the discussion a little late and reply from a supportive position...i would say those who really have a problem with aa for the most part have a problem with dismantling priveledge because they already clearly benefit from their birthright. one person mentioned civil rights being violated by aa...which is quite a ridiculous display of fallacy if i've ever seen one. reverse discrimination? what a joke. until true (and by this i mean equality has been reached) reparations are made with everyone of an underpriveledged position, including those of a lower socioeconomic class in addition to those who fit the traditional urm definition, reverse discrimination is yet a tool of the priveledged to retain power and clout. obviously if we are to achieve a state of civil equality, those with a disproportionate amount of power and status will need to relinquish some. that's just the law of conservation.

The major fallacy in this line of thinking is that you are assuming the Constitution guarantees equal outcomes. It does not. The problem with most proponents of AA is that they do not only want equal access, but guaranteed equal outcomes as well. When equal access leads to a disparity in outcomes they demand that the system be changed to accomodate the disparity in outcomes.

There are many reasons why URM applicants have lower "numbers" than ORMs and much of it does not have to do with family income or teacher expectations. The majority of blacks applying to professional or graduate schools come from the middle and upper classes, so they do not have mediocre "numbers," on average, because they are poor. Study upon study has shown that when economic status is controlled as a variable, whites and asians still far outperform blacks on ALL standardized measures of academic achievement. What is even more disturbing is that POOR whites and asians outperform middle class blacks on standardized measures of academic achievement. This is what proponents of AA do not like to talk about. When confronted with these facts, they quickly suggest institutional racism. I can definitely appreciate how institutional racism can affect corporate hiring practices or lead to police brutality in black and hispanic neighborhoods, but how it prevents the 13 year old son of a black physician from effectively learning geometry is beyond me.

In the end, AA is a cosmetic solution to a deeper social problem within the black community. On balance, it has probably done more good than harm to the black community up to this point, but is now beginning to do more harm than good. The degree of resentment harbored in the white and asian communities over AA is frightening. A cursory reading of AA threads on this forum would make this apparent. It will only get worse with time as competition to enter professional schools become more intense. Many brilliant blacks complain about being looked down on in school. Unfortunately, they haven't seen the worst of it yet. I realize that there are certain people who will still look down on blacks even if AA is ended and blacks pick themselves up to perform to par. The size of this group, however, will dwindle dramatically. You can see this phenomenon in major sports. In the earlier part of the 20th century, most whites felt that they were athletically superior to blacks. Today, you will be hard pressed to find many whites who think whites are generally athletically superior to blacks. The evidence against that sentiment is too overwhelming for any person who takes him or herself seriously to harbor those sentiments. Blacks did not attain respect in sports through AA, but through performance.

There was also a time when many whites felt intellectually superior to asians. How many feel that way now? In fact, many whites now jokingly defer to asians as being smarter. Whether asians are actually smarter than whites is not as important as the perception that they are. Asians now disproportionately dominate elite Universities. They earned the grudging respect coming their way the hard way. They simply performed as well or better than whites on many standardized tests. This is the only way to social redemption for blacks. Actions ALWAYS speak louder than words.

On the legal side, AA is flat out unconstitutional. The controlling opinion of the recent Supreme Court decision on AA stated that AA was justified by the compelling interest of the State to have a diverse workforce. This is a weak legal opinion and Sandra O'connor knows it. In a way, I sympathize with her decision because she was probably scared of the social consequences of ending AA. It would lead to blacks making up only 1% of the population of our most competitive academic institutions. That prospect is very distressing, but it still does not make AA constitutional. One can easily make a rational argument for why it is a compelling State interest to racially profile blacks with respect to crime. However, that does not make racial profiling constitutional.

 

[Treg]

I got m first interview offer today-AECOM! Earlier this week I received my screened secondary from OHSU. Things are going well....😀 😀

Treg

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Treg
I got m first interview offer today-AECOM! Earlier this week I received my screened secondary from OHSU. Things are going well....😀 😀

Treg

Another congratulations !!!!! Looks like URM's on SDN are going to have a 100% acceptance rate!!

 

[Jamaican MD]

LOTANNA!!!!

Congratulations! You have made me a believer! God is TRULY good. I'm so happy for you that I let out a scream in the computer lab when I saw. . .WOW an acceptance in December.

You GO girl

 

[Jamaican MD]

Originally posted by Treg
I got m first interview offer today-AECOM! Earlier this week I received my screened secondary from OHSU. Things are going well....😀 😀

Treg

Congratulations to you!

I'm sure that you'll do great on your interview!

(BTW, what is a screened secondary??)

Can anyone who has been through the interview process offer any advice on prepping for interviews? I'm trying to prep now. I have a list of questions that I'm working with.

I was missing for a while with finals and stuff. But I'm so glad that this thread is still going strong!!

 

[Jamaican MD]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Another congratulations !!!!! Looks like URM's on SDN are going to have a 100% acceptance rate!!

I hope so, path!

 

[Jamaican MD]

Originally posted by bullhorn
Rho-Ohki please find your own thread and stop tainting a positive one. I am SOOOOO tired of hearing about your URM complaints. When are you going to get into medical school and be too busy to respond?

Lotanna, its unfortunate your celebration has turned into YET ANOTHER AA/URM thread. Why must URMS constantly struggle to find havens to support each other? SIGH

I concur! 🙄
I mean, get a life already!

 

[Amicus]

Originally posted by Gbemi24
The major fallacy in this line of thinking is that you are assuming the Constitution guarantees equal outcomes. It does not. The problem with most proponents of AA is that they do not only want equal access, but guaranteed equal outcomes as well. When equal access leads to a disparity in outcomes they demand that the system be changed to accomodate the disparity in outcomes.

This is the heart of the whole problem. You are absolutely right. I had no idea you were anti AA.

I will say this. We can only argue that there is equal opporotunity if we can find a way to equalize the quality of primary schools in the country. If i was president the first thing i would do would be to push for a nation wide education reform. No AA in higher education, ESPECIALY not med school, ending school vouchers for private schools and fighting the teachers unions which keep crap teachers employed. Pay increases to competent teachers who work in undesirable areas.

 

[Amicus]

Originally posted by Jamaican MD
You have made me a believer! God is TRULY good.

God does not get people into med school. 🙄

I concur!
I mean, get a life already!

lotanna posted that she got in with a sub 30 MCAT and a sub 3.0 undergrad GPA and then demanded that do one imply that AA had anything to do with it. Which is complete BS. No white or asian male is getting with those numbers. Ryo is right to call her on it. the "stay out of the thread where URMs are allowed to pretend AA didnt have anything to do them getting in" protest sucks.

 

[pathdr2b]

URM's in medical school ????????


Boo-Yah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Gbemi24]

Originally posted by Amicus
This is the heart of the whole problem. You are absolutely right. I had no idea you were anti AA.

I will say this. We can only argue that there is equal opporotunity if we can find a way to equalize the quality of primary schools in the country. If i was president the first thing i would do would be to push for a nation wide education reform. No AA in higher education, ESPECIALY not med school, ending school vouchers for private schools and fighting the teachers unions which keep crap teachers employed. Pay increases to competent teachers who work in undesirable areas.

On the surface this sounds like a great solution and it is to some extent. However, as I pointed out in my penultimate post, many of the blacks doing poorly on standardized tests and in school in general are from the middle and upper classes. These students in effect have equal opportunity, but are still not performing to par. Your proposals would work for the poor, but not for the middle class. This is precisely why the proponents of AA are against affirmative action based on socio-economic status. The majority of URMs applying to professional schools are not from the ghetto, so AA based on economics would force the black middle class to compete with the white and asian middle classes. This is what they fear. How do we deal with the underperformance of the black middle class? The problem clearly seems to be cultural, and it is difficult to solve. Cultural attitudes are not easily changed.

P.S. People are usually surprised to find out that I am anti-AA. I am somewhat schizophrenic on AA and racial politics in general. The emotional part of my brain tends to support AA and many black issues because I think as a group, blacks have been more abused in this country than any other group (with the possible exception of native Ameicans). However, the more rational part of my brain tends to call it as it sees it.

 

[elin]

Originally posted by Gbemi24
On the surface this sounds like a great solution and it is to some extent. However, as I pointed out in my penultimate post, many of the blacks doing poorly on standardized tests and in school in general are from the middle and upper classes. These students in effect have equal opportunity, but are still not performing to par.

Where is your evidence? What studies are you referring to? And please don't bring up the BS Shaker Heights studies. I have studied racial disparities in primary and secondary education for several years, and I have yet to see an objective study that compares middle and upper class performance between blacks and whites on standardized tests.
Congratulations lotanna!

 

[bullhorn]

Originally posted by Gbemi24
On the surface this sounds like a great solution and it is to some extent. However, as I pointed out in my penultimate post, many of the blacks doing poorly on standardized tests and in school in general are from the middle and upper classes. These students in effect have equal opportunity, but are still not performing to par. Your proposals would work for the poor, but not for the middle class. This is precisely why the proponents of AA are against affirmative action based on socio-economic status. The majority of URMs applying to professional schools are not from the ghetto, so AA based on economics would force the black middle class to compete with the white and asian middle classes. This is what they fear. How do we deal with the underperformance of the black middle class? The problem clearly seems to be cultural, and it is difficult to solve. Cultural attitudes are not easily changed.

P.S. People are usually surprised to find out that I am anti-AA. I am somewhat schizophrenic on AA and racial politics in general. The emotional part of my brain tends to support AA and many black issues because I think as a group, blacks have been more abused in this country than any other group (with the possible eception of native Ameicans). However, the more rational part of my brain tends to call it as it sees it.

What statistics are YOU quoting in regards to the MAJORITY of blacks applying to graduate level schools being middle class? You say it with so much conviction, you MUST have a reference. Please do send it my way. From my experience, um, this is simply untrue. We are still within the generation where many blacks currently graduating are among the first to go to college. I can count on my hands the number of black students at Princeton, Harvard and Yale, during my tenure, that had parents who were college educated and well-paid...ie middle class. So, I am finding that extremely hard to believe....although I guess it makes your argument stronger. Please send the stats right along...