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PippyPony said:
@Coopah I feel that so much, and I'm sorry 🙁

I'm increasingly of the opinion that after a certain point in vet school, the typical exam formats are not always the best way of assessing a student's level of understanding. There have been a bunch of times on multiple choice exams recently where I have been looking at two+ "correct" answer choices, wishing I could pick both (and maybe rank them), explain to the professor why I would consider both options, and describe what I would prioritize for next steps if it were an actual case. But it comes down to picking one or the other, and I'm not always great at deciding what an individual professor wants as the answer -- it varies a lot based on who is writing the test questions. I've also recently noticed that some questions are formatted in ways that are overly sneaky or picky, imo -- almost as if they are running out of ways to make something harder other than resorting to kinda cheap tricks (switching one word in a paragraph, having answer choices for prognosis that are like: a. 8 months MST; b. 6-7 months MST; c. 9-12 months MST. Like...come on. That is something that could change with a JAVMA paper tomorrow & is something I'm going to look up anyways before talking to a client.)

Very frustrating because I feel like it starts to test how well students can take tests >> how well students can use clinical reasoning skills and work through a case.

(Before someone pushed back to say choosing the "most" correct answer is arguably one of the most important clinical reasoning skills...I don't disagree, and I've gotten almost perfect scores on those kinds of exercises when they are outside of an exam context. The disparity in performance makes me feel like there is disconnect in the testing process itself. Probably a "me" problem since lots of other people still do ok...but regardless, I cannot WAIT for clinics to officially start.)
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R u me because I identified with every word you just wrote

(And the NAVLE sucks balls because of everything in your first paragraph)
 
ajs513 said:
@Coopah I’ve found you’ll almost never get points off for being too specific. When you read over questions, think to yourself “can I be any more specific than I already am?” If the answer is yes, and you KNOW that what you’re saying is also going to be right, then put it. This is something that we were grilled about in anatomy because it’s a very easy way to lost points on a practical. If they asked us to name a muscle that extends the stifle, we couldn’t say quadriceps because it’s made up of four muscles. We’d have to specifically name one of the four. Try thinking of it in sequence. In your case, what would you give? ACE inhibitors. But if you were to then treat the patient, you wouldn’t reach into a grab bag of ACE inhibitors and throw a bunch at it (or maybe you could. Science). You’d specifically give Enalapril. On an exam, you could probably say “enalapril, an ACE inhibitor.” That way you’re super right. You told the professor which drug to give and said what class it’s in to demonstrate that you totally know the answer.

I’m only going this in depth with a solution because I absolutely had this problem for a long time. And it’s frustrating. Your answer was right. It just wasn’t the “right” that the professor was looking for. Eventually I just said screw it, I’ll give them everything I know. And it actually worked. Of course your mileage may vary, but I’ve found that unless a professor specifically says “in three words or less,” they won’t take off for giving them a couple sentences for an answer if everything in that answer is right.
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Yeah the problem becomes when there's a limit on what they want. Like one or two words, which is annoying. But ultimately you are right. it's just extra frustrating because I know students who have ignored those directives and gotten full credit because they were so specific. Other times I can't remember the specific drug name because we've not focused in that, so in what world would they be looking for that in the exam? Thanks for the advice though, I really do appreciate it.
 
PippyPony said:
@Coopah I feel that so much, and I'm sorry 🙁

I'm increasingly of the opinion that after a certain point in vet school, the typical exam formats are not always the best way of assessing a student's level of understanding. There have been a bunch of times on multiple choice exams recently where I have been looking at two+ "correct" answer choices, wishing I could pick both (and maybe rank them), explain to the professor why I would consider both options, and describe what I would prioritize for next steps if it were an actual case. But it comes down to picking one or the other, and I'm not always great at deciding what an individual professor wants as the answer -- it varies a lot based on who is writing the test questions. I've also recently noticed that some questions are formatted in ways that are overly sneaky or picky, imo -- almost as if they are running out of ways to make something harder other than resorting to kinda cheap tricks (switching one word in a paragraph, having answer choices for prognosis that are like: a. 8 months MST; b. 6-7 months MST; c. 9-12 months MST. Like...come on. That is something that could change with a JAVMA paper tomorrow & is something I'm going to look up anyways before talking to a client.)

Very frustrating because I feel like it starts to test how well students can take tests >> how well students can use clinical reasoning skills and work through a case.

(Before someone pushed back to say choosing the "most" correct answer is arguably one of the most important clinical reasoning skills...I don't disagree, and I've gotten almost perfect scores on those kinds of exercises when they are outside of an exam context. The disparity in performance makes me feel like there is disconnect in the testing process itself. Probably a "me" problem since lots of other people still do ok...but regardless, I cannot WAIT for clinics to officially start.)
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Yes, 3,000,000% all of this verbatim.
 
SARdoghandler said:
Full disclosure, this was me. 🤣

I even tried to argue that point but unfortunately while the professor thought I was hilarious, he would not give me the mark.

But like, was I wrong tho?

Also Coop that sucks and I'm grumpy on your behalf because none of those sound like legitimate things to cause you to lose marks for.
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Lol I was going to tag you but then I was like... nah she'll find it eventually :laugh:
 
Coopah said:
It's been very consistent throughout the years I'm not sure why I'm getting all worked up now :laugh:
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B/c pressure in the last furlong of the race.

Every time I see an exam grade now, I'm thinking about what it's going to do to my chances of getting an internship. Not a healthy situation and definitely is not helping me, but anxiety doesn't just go away because you know in your mind that it's not a productive state.
 
genny said:
I hate pee pads and complaints about dogs who are missing their pee pads because they would rather use another room in the house. It’s just an exercise in frustration.
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Tell them to put more pee pads. Cover the floor in pee pads. Can’t miss it if the entire floor is a pee pad :laugh:
 
@genny have the owners wear exclusively this
A8B99BE3-2FBD-470C-98BE-B93439D64F0E.jpeg
 
(Not quoting because requested)

I'm just curious: Was the question ACTUALLY what meds you use for early stages of *congestive heart failure*??

Because the answer to that is lasix. Not pimo and enalapril. You CANNOT say pimo and enalapril unless the question was more specific,. If you have CHF secondary to DCM in a dog, sure, you'll give it lasix/pimo/enalapril and maybe wean its lasix if it truly is mild and controlled alone on pimo/enal. But if you have CHF 2' to HCM in a cat, you shouldn't be giving it pimo/enalapril unless you happen to be a cardiologist who really has some smart cardiologist reason to do it. That case you'd give lasix +/- atenolol +/- plavix until you can get it echo'd.

Just sayin'. If that question really was phrased that way, it's a crap question that should be thrown out (and the teacher's desired answer was wrong).
 
LetItSnow said:
(Not quoting because requested)

I'm just curious: Was the question ACTUALLY what meds you use for early stages of *congestive heart failure*??

Because the answer to that is lasix. Not pimo and enalapril. You CANNOT say pimo and enalapril unless the question was more specific,. If you have CHF secondary to DCM in a dog, sure, you'll give it lasix/pimo/enalapril and maybe wean its lasix if it truly is mild and controlled alone on pimo/enal. But if you have CHF 2' to HCM in a cat, you shouldn't be giving it pimo/enalapril unless you happen to be a cardiologist who really has some smart cardiologist reason to do it. That case you'd give lasix +/- atenolol +/- plavix until you can get it echo'd.

Just sayin'. If that question really was phrased that way, it's a crap question that should be thrown out (and the teacher's desired answer was wrong).
Click to expand...
You are correct, we are only allowed to view the question when a monitor is present, are not allowed to copy the question or answer and any notes must be reviewed before being allowed to leave so I had to paraphrase based on memory. It was secondary to DCM.
 
PippyPony said:
@Coopah I feel that so much, and I'm sorry 🙁

I'm increasingly of the opinion that after a certain point in vet school, the typical exam formats are not always the best way of assessing a student's level of understanding. There have been a bunch of times on multiple choice exams recently where I have been looking at two+ "correct" answer choices, wishing I could pick both (and maybe rank them), explain to the professor why I would consider both options, and describe what I would prioritize for next steps if it were an actual case. But it comes down to picking one or the other, and I'm not always great at deciding what an individual professor wants as the answer -- it varies a lot based on who is writing the test questions. I've also recently noticed that some questions are formatted in ways that are overly sneaky or picky, imo -- almost as if they are running out of ways to make something harder other than resorting to kinda cheap tricks (switching one word in a paragraph, having answer choices for prognosis that are like: a. 8 months MST; b. 6-7 months MST; c. 9-12 months MST. Like...come on. That is something that could change with a JAVMA paper tomorrow & is something I'm going to look up anyways before talking to a client.)

Very frustrating because I feel like it starts to test how well students can take tests >> how well students can use clinical reasoning skills and work through a case.

(Before someone pushes back to say choosing the "most" correct answer is arguably one of the most important clinical reasoning skills...I don't disagree, and I've gotten almost perfect scores on those kinds of exercises when they are outside of an exam context. The disparity in performance makes me feel like there is disconnect in the testing process itself. Probably a "me" problem since lots of other people still do ok...but regardless, I cannot WAIT for clinics to officially start.)
Click to expand...
I think a lot of professors at a lot of schools need more support from their institution in terms of training for teaching, particularly the assessments portion. Not everyone is naturally good at writing fair, effective test questions. I also have come across some really stubborn cases where it was clear there was either a problem with the question or the way the material was taught (like 75% of the class missed a question, including the smarties who otherwise got an A on everything), and they refused to throw the question out. Frustrating.

I agree multiple choice is kind of a terrible way to test things as you progress to more and more clinical classes. Unfortunately it's also the most reasonable way from a time standpoint for professors who are probably teaching multiple classes plus have clinical and research appointments. So just really important for the questions to be well-written and good analysis to be done on the results after the fact. I've had professors that were really good at this stuff and ones that were really bad. I think most probably want to be better at it.
 
mmmdreamerz said:
don’t quote please
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Sorry for your loss 🙁 Hang in there.

WildZoo said:
I think a lot of professors at a lot of schools need more support from their institution in terms of training for teaching, particularly the assessments portion. Not everyone is naturally good at writing fair, effective test questions. I also have come across some really stubborn cases where it was clear there was either a problem with the question or the way the material was taught (like 75% of the class missed a question, including the smarties who otherwise got an A on everything), and they refused to throw the question out. Frustrating.

I agree multiple choice is kind of a terrible way to test things as you progress to more and more clinical classes. Unfortunately it's also the most reasonable way from a time standpoint for professors who are probably teaching multiple classes plus have clinical and research appointments. So just really important for the questions to be well-written and good analysis to be done on the results after the fact. I've had professors that were really good at this stuff and ones that were really bad. I think most probably want to be better at it.
Click to expand...

Rough. Do you guys have several professors per class? I.e. pathology is taught by 4-5 different professors, and there is also a path person that is the course organizer and goes over all the questions that are submitted by the individual professors and performs stats on the questions etc and throws out those questions that majority of the class got wrong etc. Is this something that can be asked of the course organizer if you have someone like that?
 
Last edited:
staff_wielder said:
Sorry for your loss 🙁 Hang in there.



Rough. Do you guys have several professors per class? I.e. pathology is taught by 4-5 different professors, and there is also a path person that is the course organizer and goes over all the questions that are submitted by the individual professors and performs stats on the questions etc and throws out those questions that majority of the class got wrong etc. Is this something that can be asked of the course organizer if you have someone like that?
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Our system works similar, but it's up to each course coordinator to decide how those situations get handled. Some of them are more stubborn than others.
 
Squeaksmom said:
Who's our pharmacist? @capri1722 ? How much violence can I get away with if a pharmacist's error gave me serotonin syndrome? Because I'm seriously upset and I don't think it's unjustified!!
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Yes that's me lol…in training anyway

Probably start with your state's board of pharmacy? They will absolutely want to hear about it.
Coincidentally, my hobby reading r/legaladvice also comes in handy here. If you have any monetary damages (hospital bills, etc.), contact a medical malpractice attorney to evaluate your legal options. You can contact your state bar association for a referral. Most attorneys offer a free or low-cost initial consult.

There was a NY Times article that came out on Friday about how the working conditions at chain pharmacies are causing medication errors. The TL;DR is low staffing, high volume, and long hours with few (if any) breaks. The latest high-profile medication error was an asthmatic teenager who got blood pressure medication (no further specifics, but guessing it was carvedilol or something), but the article also included other recent cases, one of which was fatal. I work for one of the companies mentioned and it's definitely accurate, although I think my store has it better than most.

Link: How Chaos at Chain Pharmacies Is Putting Patients at Risk
 
capri1722 said:
Yes that's me lol…in training anyway

Probably start with your state's board of pharmacy? They will absolutely want to hear about it.
Coincidentally, my hobby reading r/legaladvice also comes in handy here. If you have any monetary damages (hospital bills, etc.), contact a medical malpractice attorney to evaluate your legal options. You can contact your state bar association for a referral. Most attorneys offer a free or low-cost initial consult.

There was a NY Times article that came out on Friday about how the working conditions at chain pharmacies are causing medication errors. The TL;DR is low staffing, high volume, and long hours with few (if any) breaks. The latest high-profile medication error was an asthmatic teenager who got blood pressure medication (no further specifics, but guessing it was carvedilol or something), but the article also included other recent cases, one of which was fatal. I work for one of the companies mentioned and it's definitely accurate, although I think my store has it better than most.

Link: How Chaos at Chain Pharmacies Is Putting Patients at Risk
Click to expand...

My best friend is a pharmacist and she posted that article on Facebook the other day, and often laments about her working conditions. Truly scary stuff!
 
capri1722 said:
Yes that's me lol…in training anyway

Probably start with your state's board of pharmacy? They will absolutely want to hear about it.
Coincidentally, my hobby reading r/legaladvice also comes in handy here. If you have any monetary damages (hospital bills, etc.), contact a medical malpractice attorney to evaluate your legal options. You can contact your state bar association for a referral. Most attorneys offer a free or low-cost initial consult.

There was a NY Times article that came out on Friday about how the working conditions at chain pharmacies are causing medication errors. The TL;DR is low staffing, high volume, and long hours with few (if any) breaks. The latest high-profile medication error was an asthmatic teenager who got blood pressure medication (no further specifics, but guessing it was carvedilol or something), but the article also included other recent cases, one of which was fatal. I work for one of the companies mentioned and it's definitely accurate, although I think my store has it better than most.

Link: How Chaos at Chain Pharmacies Is Putting Patients at Risk
Click to expand...
How well versed are you on Canadian laws :thinking:
 
capri1722 said:
Yes that's me lol…in training anyway

Probably start with your state's board of pharmacy? They will absolutely want to hear about it.
Coincidentally, my hobby reading r/legaladvice also comes in handy here. If you have any monetary damages (hospital bills, etc.), contact a medical malpractice attorney to evaluate your legal options. You can contact your state bar association for a referral. Most attorneys offer a free or low-cost initial consult.

There was a NY Times article that came out on Friday about how the working conditions at chain pharmacies are causing medication errors. The TL;DR is low staffing, high volume, and long hours with few (if any) breaks. The latest high-profile medication error was an asthmatic teenager who got blood pressure medication (no further specifics, but guessing it was carvedilol or something), but the article also included other recent cases, one of which was fatal. I work for one of the companies mentioned and it's definitely accurate, although I think my store has it better than most.

Link: How Chaos at Chain Pharmacies Is Putting Patients at Risk
Click to expand...
I'm in Canada so not all of that applies. They gave me ****ing cymbalta instead of my proton pump inhibitor. I'm bipolar 1 and on antipsychotics, and I've had serotonin syndrome once before when I was given zofran. I knew the capsules were different but we were in surgery so I was sleep deprived & preoccupied and just assumed it was a generic. But last night I laid down and got a mouthful of stomach acid, and was like "but is that actually a PPI then??" Plugged the inscription on the capsules into the drugs.com visual search tool this morning and came up with a perfect match. And suddenly both the stomach acid and the serotonin syndrome symptoms made a lot more sense! I took it for 3 ****ing weeks... I'm SOOOO lucky I'm not raving manic right now!!! Oh, and my P450 is sluggish, so that ****'s going to be in my system for quite a while yet. ****! Currently waiting on a callback from my psychiatrist.

(umm... sorry for getting all sweary... kind of)
 
Squeaksmom said:
I'm in Canada so not all of that applies. They gave me ****ing cymbalta instead of my proton pump inhibitor. I'm bipolar 1 and on antipsychotics, and I've had serotonin syndrome once before when I was given zofran. I knew the capsules were different but we were in surgery so I was sleep deprived & preoccupied and just assumed it was a generic. But last night I laid down and got a mouthful of stomach acid, and was like "but is that actually a PPI then??" Plugged the inscription on the capsules into the drugs.com visual search tool this morning and came up with a perfect match. And suddenly both the stomach acid and the serotonin syndrome symptoms made a lot more sense! I took it for 3 ****ing weeks... I'm SOOOO lucky I'm not raving manic right now!!! Oh, and my P450 is sluggish, so that ****'s going to be in my system for quite a while yet. ****! Currently waiting on a callback from my psychiatrist.

(umm... sorry for getting all sweary... kind of)
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After talking to the doc, it looks like I caught it in time for the serotonin syndrome to be reversible without hospitalization, but it'll depend on how long it takes for the med to clear my system. It was very close! So that's a good thing at least.
 
allygator13 said:
My best friend is a pharmacist and she posted that article on Facebook the other day, and often laments about her working conditions. Truly scary stuff!
Click to expand...

My cousin is a pharmacist and has described such conditions. It’s crazy.
 
blueheeler said:
Minor rant:: I want the animal crossing nintendo switch sooooo badly, but I don't NEED it. 🙁
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Yeah, I can't justify that kind of purchase considering I already have a perfectly good Switch from day 1. I think I will TRY to get the joycons at least though - they are selling them separately in Japan for sure so at the very least would be able to import them. The actual Switch itself is pretty slick looking too with the textured back but the dock isn't that interesting to me. The case is nice too. I don't even really NEED the joycons but they are just so pleasant-looking. 🤔
 
nyanko said:
Yeah, I can't justify that kind of purchase considering I already have a perfectly good Switch from day 1. I think I will TRY to get the joycons at least though - they are selling them separately in Japan for sure so at the very least would be able to import them. The actual Switch itself is pretty slick looking too with the textured back but the dock isn't that interesting to me. The case is nice too. I don't even really NEED the joycons but they are just so pleasant-looking. 🤔
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I agree. The dock is "meh," but the console itself is cute. I already have a switch as well, so I definitely don't need another switch. I'm probably just going to end up buying the new animal crossing game.
 
Stupid rant but I’m sure you guys feel me on some level here.

It always frustrates me when pet owners try to argue with vets using the “I’ve owned pets my whole life” argument. On average that equates to, what, 5 or 10 pets? They realize vets see thousands of pets every year, right? If you work 40 hours a week and do 30 minute appointments every day that equals over 5,000 appointments in a year. You could realistically see up to 10,000 or so animals in a year. Education aside, n of 10,000 in a year is worth a hell of a lot more that n of 10 in a lifetime.

And I don’t mean for situations like when a client says “I know my pet. He doesn’t seem okay.” Pet owners will know things about their pets that we could never know about them on our own. I’m talking about factual, unarguable things. Like when you tell a pet owner to not give their dog grapes and they say “I’ve had pets my whole life and never had a problem.” Just specifically when they’re obviously trying to argue with you and they use that defense.
 
ajs513 said:
Stupid rant but I’m sure you guys feel me on some level here.

It always frustrates me when pet owners try to argue with vets using the “I’ve owned pets my whole life” argument. On average that equates to, what, 5 or 10 pets? They realize vets see thousands of pets every year, right? If you work 40 hours a week and do 30 minute appointments every day that equals over 5,000 appointments in a year. You could realistically see up to 10,000 or so animals in a year. Education aside, n of 10,000 in a year is worth a hell of a lot more that n of 10 in a lifetime.

And I don’t mean for situations like when a client says “I know my pet. He doesn’t seem okay.” Pet owners will know things about their pets that we could never know about them on our own. I’m talking about factual, unarguable things. Like when you tell a pet owner to not give their dog grapes and they say “I’ve had pets my whole life and never had a problem.” Just specifically when they’re obviously trying to argue with you and they use that defense.
Click to expand...
I try to think of that as more a reaction to being told something that they were doing wrong. They're embarrassed and trying to cover up. It's ok I definitely did things wrong with my dog before I started in this career. Hell if I had a dog is probably still be doing some stuff wrong. Yeah it can be annoying when owners argue with you when you're clearly just trying to help, but at the end of the day I try to think they're just trying their best and that's ok too.
 
ajs513 said:
Stupid rant but I’m sure you guys feel me on some level here.

It always frustrates me when pet owners try to argue with vets using the “I’ve owned pets my whole life” argument. On average that equates to, what, 5 or 10 pets? They realize vets see thousands of pets every year, right? If you work 40 hours a week and do 30 minute appointments every day that equals over 5,000 appointments in a year. You could realistically see up to 10,000 or so animals in a year. Education aside, n of 10,000 in a year is worth a hell of a lot more that n of 10 in a lifetime.

And I don’t mean for situations like when a client says “I know my pet. He doesn’t seem okay.” Pet owners will know things about their pets that we could never know about them on our own. I’m talking about factual, unarguable things. Like when you tell a pet owner to not give their dog grapes and they say “I’ve had pets my whole life and never had a problem.” Just specifically when they’re obviously trying to argue with you and they use that defense.
Click to expand...

I've had a vagina my whole life but doesn't make me a gynecologist.
 
Coopah said:
I try to think of that as more a reaction to being told something that they were doing wrong. They're embarrassed and trying to cover up. It's ok I definitely did things wrong with my dog before I started in this career. Hell if I had a dog is probably still be doing some stuff wrong. Yeah it can be annoying when owners argue with you when you're clearly just trying to help, but at the end of the day I try to think they're just trying their best and that's ok too.
Click to expand...
No I understand that. I’m talking about when they’re insistent on the issue. I don’t mind when they say tings like “oh I’ve had pets my whole life and didn’t know that.”
 
ajs513 said:
If you work 40 hours a week
Click to expand...
HAHAHAHAHAHA

ajs513 said:
Like when you tell a pet owner to not give their dog grapes and they say “I’ve had pets my whole life and never had a problem.”
Click to expand...
I just coat the grapes in dark dark chocolate and the dog tolerates them better.
 
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