RANT HERE thread

Veterinary Science Graduate Programs from U. of I.
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@Elkhart The guy doing the hiring is interviewing you as a person, not a gender. If he interviews as a gender, he’s looking for something weird on a personal level (a bro, some boobs to look at, w/e) and it’s no good anyway. Just go be Elkhart the human and try not to worry about the rest. Elkhart the human is well-qualified for this job and is smart and responsible. Elkhart the badass dude will have his day soon.
 
So remember a little bit ago I got a few points off when I essentially had the right answer because I wasn't specific enough? Now I got the points off WITH THE SAME PROFESSOR for being too specific. It was asking about the mechanism of pimobendan and I said that it improves atrial contraction because we don't actually know why it works in DCM but then there was this study that correlated increased atrial contractility in DCM with increased survival time and another one that showed pimobendan had an effect of increased atrial contractility (which we covered in class) so that was probably why it worked. He marked it wrong and the correct answer was positive ionotropy... Like wtf dude?
 
Coopah said:
So remember a little bit ago I got a few points off when I essentially had the right answer because I wasn't specific enough? Now I got the points off WITH THE SAME PROFESSOR for being too specific. It was asking about the mechanism of pimobendan and I said that it improves atrial contraction because we don't actually know why it works in DCM but then there was this study that correlated increased atrial contractility in DCM with increased survival time and another one that showed pimobendan had an effect of increased atrial contractility (which we covered in class) so that was probably why it worked. He marked it wrong and the correct answer was positive ionotropy... Like wtf dude?
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I would fight the Crap out of that, too.
 
Client rant time. The doctor I work with combines holistic and modern medicine. I think it’s really cool and am interested in pursuing a similar integrative approach. However, we get some all natural nut jobs as a result. So this client came in today and she’s relatively new to us. She has a thorough history with another clinic. Anyways, she brings her 14 year old Australian shepherd “Holly” to us. As y’all probably know, that’s pretty ancient for that breed. Holly has a long history of chronic and severe UTIs as well as arthritis and suspect Cushings. Anyways, owner is “all natural” and completely refuses antibiotics, refuses urine cultures to figure out what bacteria is the cause, refuses radiographs to see if her dog has stones. She also refuses pain medications for the arthritis, which Holly now has a hard time standing on her own. We sent her home with milk thistle but she called us when she got home saying Holly urinated a ton of blood. She asked what to do and we told her we had already recommended antibiotics which she declined. I totally understand wanting to try holistic and all natural treatments, but I hate that some people will do so at the expense of their dog’s health. I mean, she’s basically killing her dog.
 
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alissa14 said:
Client rant time. The doctor I work with combined holistic and modern medicine. I think it’s really cool and am interested in pursuing a similar integrative approach. However, we get some all natural nut jobs as a result. So this client came in today and she’s relatively new to us. She has a thorough history with another clinic. Anyways, she brings her 14 year old Australian shepherd “Holly” to us. As y’all probably know, that’s pretty ancient for that breed. Holly has a long history of chronic and severe UTIs as well as arthritis and suspect Cushings. Anyways, owner is “all natural” and completely refuses antibiotics, refuses urine cultures to figure out what bacteria is the cause, refuses radiographs to see if her dog has stones. She also refuses pain medications for the arthritis, which Holly now has a hard time standing on her own. We sent her home with milk thistle but she called us when she got home saying Holly urinated a ton of blood. She asked what to do and we told her we had already recommended antibiotics which she declined. I totally understand wanting to try holistic and all natural treatments, but I hate that some people will do so at the expense of their dog’s health. I mean, she’s basically killing her dog.
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Idk about the laws where you are, but here we (meaning vets, as I write we but realize I am not one yet lol) are obligated to report cases like that to the police or humane society for medical neglect if there is evidence the animal is in distress (which it sounds like it is)
 
SARdoghandler said:
Idk about the laws where you are, but here we (meaning vets, as I write we but realize I am not one yet lol) are obligated to report cases like that to the police or humane society for medical neglect if there is evidence the animal is in distress (which it sounds like it is)
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That’s okay. I’m not in vet school yet, I’m applying for 2020, rejected 2019. I mean she gives her dog food, water, and shelter. I’m not sure that medical neglect for animals is a thing here. Especially since technically she is trying to treat holistically, just it’s obviously not working. If I were a vet I would be tempted to refuse her further treatment.
 
alissa14 said:
That’s okay. I’m not in vet school yet, I’m applying for 2020, rejected 2019. I mean she gives her dog food, water, and shelter. I’m not sure that medical neglect for animals is a thing here. Especially since technically she is trying to treat holistically, just it’s obviously not working. If I were a vet I would be tempted to refuse her further treatment.
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Not sure of your area but it doesn't hurt to report. We've run into this issue a few times where I work (in TX) and we have continued with things like confiscating animals even if they've been to a veterinarian if they have refused all attempts at providing adequate care.
 
alissa14 said:
That’s okay. I’m not in vet school yet, I’m applying for 2020, rejected 2019. I mean she gives her dog food, water, and shelter. I’m not sure that medical neglect for animals is a thing here. Especially since technically she is trying to treat holistically, just it’s obviously not working. If I were a vet I would be tempted to refuse her further treatment.
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I'd be tempted to look it up for your state, if only so you know in the future.

Here, it does not matter if she's treating the dog holistically or not. If the dog has a medical condition causing distress (chronic pain, stage 4 dental disease, untreated infections etc.) which could be treated but is not being treated for whatever reason (financial, beliefs, whatever) then vets here have to report. Then humane society (typically, unless abuse is suspected) will open an investigation and they will determine if the animal needs to be removed or not.

I was super lucky to just have a rotation with a vet who does the majority of the veterinary forensics for Western Canada so learned a ton about abuse and medical neglect cases. The most common medical neglect cases we worked on were horrific dental disease cases where the owners thought the dog was ok because they couldn't afford a dental. Unsurprisingly, the dogs were not ok and seized
 
SARdoghandler said:
I'd be tempted to look it up for your state, if only so you know in the future.

Here, it does not matter if she's treating the dog holistically or not. If the dog has a medical condition causing distress (chronic pain, stage 4 dental disease, untreated infections etc.) which could be treated but is not being treated for whatever reason (financial, beliefs, whatever) then vets here have to report. Then humane society (typically, unless abuse is suspected) will open an investigation and they will determine if the animal needs to be removed or not.

I was super lucky to just have a rotation with a vet who does the majority of the veterinary forensics for Western Canada so learned a ton about abuse and medical neglect cases. The most common medical neglect cases we worked on were horrific dental disease cases where the owners thought the dog was ok because they couldn't afford a dental. Unsurprisingly, the dogs were not ok and seized
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Wow that’s so interesting. We had a client decline extractions even though we told her the dog most likely was experiencing a lot of mouth pain and she straight up told the tech “No it’s okay. He doesn’t need any teeth taken because they’ll just fall out on their own. He’s still eating good so he can’t be in any pain”🙄
 
vetmedhead said:
Not sure of your area but it doesn't hurt to report. We've run into this issue a few times where I work (in TX) and we have continued with things like confiscating animals even if they've been to a veterinarian if they have refused all attempts at providing adequate care.
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I’m not sure I even can. I’m an assistant on my clinic. The only assistant so I’m like “low man on the totem pole.” I suppose I could submit something anonymously but I’d be afraid it would come back to me or my clinic. My clinic already faced a ton of public backlash a couple years ago for euthanizing a kitten the doctor was suspicious had rabies (kitten had bitten someone and had neurologic symptoms) and a rescue totally went after them and harassed them. I wouldn’t want this to happen again. But I’ll look into my options because I’m curious. From what I heard it sounds like she’ll be moving out of state so hopefully we won’t have to deal with her much longer but that doesn’t mean her dog will be much better. I honestly just feel bad for the dog!!
 
alissa14 said:
I’m not sure I even can. I’m an assistant on my clinic. The only assistant so I’m like “low man on the totem pole.” I suppose I could submit something anonymously but I’d be afraid it would come back to me or my clinic. My clinic already faced a ton of public backlash a couple years ago for euthanizing a kitten the doctor was suspicious had rabies (kitten had bitten someone and had neurologic symptoms) and a rescue totally went after them and harassed them. I wouldn’t want this to happen again. But I’ll look into my options because I’m curious. From what I heard it sounds like she’ll be moving out of state so hopefully we won’t have to deal with her much longer but that doesn’t mean her dog will be much better. I honestly just feel bad for the dog!!
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Usually (hopefully) there is some form of anonymous reporting system. That's what we have here so that vets have some level of protection if they are afraid of backlash. Since you can lose your license for not reporting here, there had to be some protections.

I'm really sorry that happened to your clinic. Sounds like they got slammed for making the right decision 🙁
 
SARdoghandler said:
Usually (hopefully) there is some form of anonymous reporting system. That's what we have here so that vets have some level of protection if they are afraid of backlash. Since you can lose your license for not reporting here, there had to be some protections.

I'm really sorry that happened to your clinic. Sounds like they got slammed for making the right decision 🙁
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Yup, this varies by state but most states include protections against civil and criminal liability for veterinarians who engage in good faith reporting of suspected cruelty. I'm not sure how it applies to staff since I think a lot of people tend to hold the veterinarian as responsible for their staff when filing suits.
 
Please don't quote. I'm technically passing my rotations so far, but I keep getting told in my evaluations that my knowledge base seems weak and I'm just really getting impostor syndrome over it and feeling like even if I do make it out of vet school I'm going to fail as an actual veterinarian. I thought I knew things but maybe I don't? Can I just quit and go live in a box under a bridge?

I'm just depressed about everything. I was hoping clinics would be better and I'm not sure that they are. I like working on actual patients/cases but I'm usually so stressed out about whether I'm meeting expectations that I can't actually enjoy it.
 
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finnickthedog said:
Please don't quote.
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I sympathize. I hated some clinical rotations, and there were definitely clinicians that didn't click with me, and I got comments about not being knowledgeable enough but really it was just that I'm a soft-spoken introvert and not the type of student who answers before the question is even finished. I had one rotation with a clinician who encouraged me to speak up more, and subsequent rotations went more smoothly with fewer comments about lacking knowledge. My first year as a veterinarian was way better than clinics but also full of imposter syndrome feelings. It's getting better with the more experience I get. You can be a good veterinarian without liking clinical rotations.
 
@finnickthedog you will probably be told your knowledge base is weak on several rotations early on, especially this early on. Because it is compared to where it will be when you're done. That's ok! The only thing you can do is try to learn from every case and every rotation and take those things with you into the next ones. Those comments are meant to give you direction for where you can improve, not to beat you down 🙂

Edit: And i, similar to Genny, tend to be more soft-spoken. So have to force myself to speak up to show the knowledge that I do have. Maybe that is something that you struggle with too? So that is something else you could focus on as well.

The other thing is you don't have all that much say in the environment you're working in on clinics. You'll have more say when you're out in the real world. It'll be different. I hope things improve so you can enjoy clinics more, we're here for you in the meantime.
 
@finnickthedog I know it's easier said than done, and imposter syndrome is a beast, but trust that the very fact that you've made it to rotations, and the fact that you're passing them all, is a testament to your knowledge and capabilities and it is proof that you do know things, to use your own words. Let me put it this way: from very personal experience, if they did not think that you could do it, you wouldn't have made it this far into the curriculum. I think that comments like the ones you've received are just to give you some guidance on possible improvement areas rather than to act as criticism, per say.

It also could very well just be the particular rotations. It could be that maybe your personality type just doesn't mesh well with the clinicians, or that you're too nervous and/or soft-spoken to feel comfortable answering questions right away. It could be that you might just be in a funk that will resolve with time. Hopefully your next few rotations go more smoothly, manage to rekindle that passion for vet med within you, and help you to feel more confident in yourself. Because you can do it.

I'll second PBC: hang in there.
 
I also think it's important to remember that you don't have to be perfect in any rotations and that you just started clinics what, a month ago? The difference between people on the first month of clinics and the last is often astronomical from what I've seen, and the difference a lot of times is in confidence and having more experience actually pulling up the information you learned in class efficiently. I feel it's rare for people to be amazing at all of these things on clinics right off the bat. You're still successful and you'll be a great veterinarian when you graduate.
 
Yeah, I wouldn't take it to heart. I think the criticism is expected unfortunately, so as long as you feel like you are learning, keep moving forward. If there was a true concern, you'd be told. As far as the other classmates, be careful about reading into things. Just do you and as I've mentioned all over the place, be there for them and they should be there for you. 🙂

It goes by quick, so hang in there. Practice is a million times different than clinics as well, so things will continue to change quickly over the next few years. Don't lose your confidence. Embrace what you don't know to learn and take pride in what you do well. 🙂
 
As someone who taught students, it can be difficult to mentally "swap" your expectations from students who are at the end of their clinical year to students who are new on clinics. This may have been magnified based on the clinics structure where I did my residency, but you could sorta 'forget' that this group is still learning the ropes and just notice that things aren't as smooth as before. And based upon the time of year it sounds like you started clinics, I would bet there are both third and fourth years on rotation at the same time? If so, it's not surprising your knowledge will seem a little less than the people who have been doing this a year longer than you. Stick with it, keep putting in the work and doing your best, and I suspect as you get further into clinics it'll all come easier and your reviews will improve.
 
@finnickthedog Oof, I know it hurts to hear that! For what it’s worth, I think sometimes clinicians have some default “recommendations” or critiques that can be applied broadly and easily when there are no glaring deficiencies. At this point, everyone’s knowledge base is the same since you’ve taken the same classes; it’s often the presentation or the application that perhaps needs work. So if you’re like, what, 80% of all vet students?, you’re introverted and you hate the spotlight of attention especially when it’s a pop quiz question in front of classmates so you freeze. Or maybe your knowledge base appears weak if you’re still learning how to translate what you know to what the next step is. Or maybe you just plain forgot a lot of details like everyone else! Don’t let the nitpickers get to you- this is their last chance in your life to make some mundane factoid relevant :laugh: Focus in big picture, read up before rotations if you don’t already and if you get stumped, NEVER be afraid to say “I don’t know...but I will look it up!” And follow through 🙂
 
Your classmates also matter. I took internal medicine first rotation with literally three people who went into pathology residencies and a couple others who were just waaaay too ****ing smart. They were all fantastic but I was far and beyond the weakest link in the group and my knowledge was definitely brought up in evals.

But guess what? I learned a lot, I passed, and I'm a solid vet nowadays. It's going to be fine. Books and VIN are your friends and nobody asks you for long differential lists in real life.
 
You also have to remember some clinicians just are dinguses with reviews. I mean, really, they are. I was on a two week soft tissue surgery rotation, in the second week there were some people that left the rotation to jump to ortho and some on ortho that jumped in on soft tissue, so they only had a week each to get experience. I had 3 surgical cases in those two weeks. The clinician chastised me in review for "not taking on more cases." There were 9 cases in total in two weeks (a number showing up on ER so whoever was the on call student was automatically assigned those, that is how I got one of my cases). So I had 3 cases, 1 that I was going to get regardless because it was an ER in two weeks out of 9 total cases... there were a total of 8 students on the rotation over that two week period.

Sometimes, you really do just have to shrug and laugh at the bull**** of vet school and move along. There was no way I was going to be able to take on more cases unless I started running over animals myself and chances are they'd end up with ortho anyway.
 
Without having been in full-on clinics yet, I would also venture to guess that classmates who seem judgmental are likely to be experiencing similar feelings of inadequacy and merely projecting that insecurity in not the best of ways. Stressful time for everyone, and they may be getting feedback behind the scenes that is different but equally distressing from their point of view.
 
Does anyone have any advice of how to deal with back and neck pain from sitting in an uncomfortable lecture hall all day? I'm leaning over my tablet too much and the chairs are terrible. I get up and walk around/stretch during breaks between classes and it's helped a little bit but not nearly enough. I'm a chronic migraine sufferer too so the neck pain just seems to radiate up into my head and is making me miserable.
 
Dinashadow said:
Does anyone have any advice of how to deal with back and neck pain from sitting in an uncomfortable lecture hall all day? I'm leaning over my tablet too much and the chairs are terrible. I get up and walk around/stretch during breaks between classes and it's helped a little bit but not nearly enough. I'm a chronic migraine sufferer too so the neck pain just seems to radiate up into my head and is making me miserable.
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I know there are some differing opinions out there but this is exactly what a chiropractor is supposed to be good for. But in the meantime, try to get moving, sit up straight if you can, use a heating pad, and stretch.
 
Dinashadow said:
Does anyone have any advice of how to deal with back and neck pain from sitting in an uncomfortable lecture hall all day? I'm leaning over my tablet too much and the chairs are terrible. I get up and walk around/stretch during breaks between classes and it's helped a little bit but not nearly enough. I'm a chronic migraine sufferer too so the neck pain just seems to radiate up into my head and is making me miserable.
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Chronic neck pain sufferer here! Turtle stretches help a lot. Basically you touch your chin and “push” it back, while keeping your neck in a neutral position for a second, then go back to normal (gives you a great double/triple chin). I’m sure google can explain it better. Heat packs are lifesavers when I’ve had a bad day.
ajs513 said:
I know there are some differing opinions out there but this is exactly what a chiropractor is supposed to be good for. But in the meantime, try to get moving, sit up straight if you can, use a heating pad, and stretch.
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Alternative opinion: I was pro-chiro until I went to one weekly and was only getting short-term relief. Then I delved more into the history of chiro and wasn’t impressed. But that’s just me.

PT on the other hand was life changing. Massage therapy is fantastic if you can afford it. Since I’m still poor, I shell out money for a nice massage (short-term solution) when I’m really really tense.
 
Dinashadow said:
Does anyone have any advice of how to deal with back and neck pain from sitting in an uncomfortable lecture hall all day? I'm leaning over my tablet too much and the chairs are terrible. I get up and walk around/stretch during breaks between classes and it's helped a little bit but not nearly enough. I'm a chronic migraine sufferer too so the neck pain just seems to radiate up into my head and is making me miserable.
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Pretty much what aj said. I see a chiropractor at least once a month if not twice. Getting up and moving&walking between classes and stretching helps a ton. If you can also get a daily workout with abs that helps. Heating pad. Extra lumbar support so like a rolled towel in the lower back portion. Unfortunately I dont have much for the neck pain other than try and sit up more to correct your posture vs hunching over your tablet.
 
johnnaboo said:
It’s a common thing chiros do to continually adjust you. I found it unhelpful and expensive. The one chiro I went to in my hometown did combined massage and chiro and you just came in whenever you wanted. Loved that guy.
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I've never had that experience. I'm sorry you had that experience. Yeah my current guy I like. Hes a bit more unconventional than I'd like but he does massage and is open like all the time so I ignore the other stuff
 
Dinashadow said:
Does anyone have any advice of how to deal with back and neck pain from sitting in an uncomfortable lecture hall all day? I'm leaning over my tablet too much and the chairs are terrible. I get up and walk around/stretch during breaks between classes and it's helped a little bit but not nearly enough. I'm a chronic migraine sufferer too so the neck pain just seems to radiate up into my head and is making me miserable.
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Last year I got whiplash pretty bad snowboarding, and I went to a chiro. Saw them 2x per week for 2 weeks and they fixed my neck right up! They used electrical muscle stimulation, adjustment and massage. It worked wonders. I hope you can find something that works for you!
 
Dinashadow said:
Does anyone have any advice of how to deal with back and neck pain from sitting in an uncomfortable lecture hall all day? I'm leaning over my tablet too much and the chairs are terrible. I get up and walk around/stretch during breaks between classes and it's helped a little bit but not nearly enough. I'm a chronic migraine sufferer too so the neck pain just seems to radiate up into my head and is making me miserable.
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:hello:

*writes a 2000 word essay*

(I'm kidding. I think.)

(Also I'm not a physician or health care professional. See your doctor.)

(Also this has wrecked my life singlehandedly for about a decade now and has progressively gotten worse, and the general bucket of MSK issues are the #1 thing/obstacle I need to overcome in order to get my life back. I'm in figurative tears as I type this.)

Best advice is to deal with any acute issues before they become chronic, spread to other joints and muscles, and wreck your quality of life. Especially if it leads to a domino effect of herniation, atrophy, neuropathy, radiulopathy, stenosis, kyphosis, TOS, spondylitis, actual degeneration of discs, arthritis, and a million other things that will lessen your ROM and QoL for...the rest of your life and may require surgery or whatever. :caution:

I wish I could go back in time to ~2008 or even maybe 2006-07 and fix my posture, develop good ergos, not sit all day studying/working. And to do more balanced strengthening exercises.

I have actual mixed opinions on DPTs and DCs and LMTs for various reasons. Some are knowledgeable. Some are quacks. I may or may not expand on this.

Just like 2 weeks ago I found Bob & Brad on YouTube. A lot of their videos and demonstrations/advice are exactly the same kind of advice I got at a McPhysicalTherapy office, but free instead of $200/visit.

Safe assumption you've tried the usual advice: stretching, FIX YOUR POSTURE STAT AND AT ALL TIMES, and heat packs, and see if oral OTC NSAIDs work at all or not. There's lots of stuff you can do at home with a rolled up towel e.g. light cervical traction. See the Bob & Brad videos above! Seriously!!!

Random toys I've spent hundreds of $$$ on so far (not a complete list, it's like 1/2):

Amazon:
* Body Back Buddy on Amazon - fairly cheap, looks like a sex toy with thingies sticking out. It competes with the Thericane. THIS IS PRETTY GREAT BUT ONLY IF YOU LEARN HOW TO USE IT. There's entire books on "trigger point therapy" and I'm such a beginner. This takes lots of trial and error, and I'm so ig'nant on how to best find or release my trigger points. 🙁
* Books: Treat Your Own Shoulder and Treat Your Own Neck by Robin McKenzie -- he's a pretty famous DPT from New Zealand that has the McKenzie Method named after him. I bought the books and looked at the pretty pictures. I figured $50 or whatever on books is cheaper than yet another $1000 getting nowhere with a DPT. Especially if I can safely and diligently do stuff at home.
* Pressure Positive Co. The Jacknobber II (Blue) - good tool for massage and trigger point release, but truly truly requires a partner. Worthless on yourself, especially on your own neck/shoulders/back. You would be better served with a tennis ball in a sock and go to town against a wall. (Feels. So. Good. Try it.) - This product isn't worth it for solo action :naughty: but would be a nice adjunct for partner use :naughty: provided said partner knows wtf they are doing. It basically saves using their thumbs/elbows.
* Pivotal Therapy 1950 Occipivot, Shape - this is like a $40 piece of hard plastic that's supposed to let you lie on it and release the muscles surrounding the occipital region. Uh. I haven't opened it yet, but I'll let you know...lol. There's a whole "system" of these that go all the way down the spine. I might get the lumbar and thoracic ones just for fun.
* Real-Ease Neck and Shoulder Relaxer - This is similar to the Occipivot above (similar position) but it's softer vs. hard plastic. I haven't used this one either.
* "Nayoya Back and Neck Pain Relief - Acupressure Mat and Pillow Set - Relieves Stress, Back, Neck, and Sciatic Pain - Comes in a Carry Case for Storage and Travel - As Seen in USA Today" - I've had this for years but need to bust it out again. This has hundreds/thousands of needles. They hurt. This is a way different technique than trigger point therapy or myofascial release IMO. You're "supposed" to use this on the floor for maximum pain but I've used it on my bed. Bare skin, no shirt. Holy crap this hurts. Then you go numb. Then when you get up after 10-20 minutes there's a huge inrush of blood perfusion and lots of other feels. I have no clue if this provides relief for actual JOINT issues from bad posture...but there may be merit to using this for general muscle/back relaxation.

Costco:
* Teeter inversion table. I forget what model, but it was on "sale" at like $300-400. It's something I need to re-learn how to use, since it's been a couple years. There's newer models. Don't use if you have any existing contraindications (heart issues, stents, htn, hip replacements, etc etc).
* Comfort Revolution S-shaped contour memory foam pillow. I dunno. Seems okay compared to the crappy $5 Walmart "Jumbo" pillow.


Also, fix your posture ASAP. Don't let this get away. I bet there's going to be MILLIONS of people going forward with issues as our society becomes fixated on tablets, smartphones, laptops, and crap posture. I'm seeing complaints from young kids who have terrible forward head posture + shoulders forward posture that are developing neck and back issues before they're even 20 for Pete's sake.

(I said it earlier. But see your doctor for advice and hopefully x-ray +/- MRI rule out anything that warrants other avenues.)
 
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ajs513 said:
I know there are some differing opinions out there but this is exactly what a chiropractor is supposed to be good for. But in the meantime, try to get moving, sit up straight if you can, use a heating pad, and stretch.
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johnnaboo said:
Chronic neck pain sufferer here! Turtle stretches help a lot. Basically you touch your chin and “push” it back, while keeping your neck in a neutral position for a second, then go back to normal (gives you a great double/triple chin). I’m sure google can explain it better. Heat packs are lifesavers when I’ve had a bad day.

Alternative opinion: I was pro-chiro until I went to one weekly and was only getting short-term relief. Then I delved more into the history of chiro and wasn’t impressed. But that’s just me.

PT on the other hand was life changing. Massage therapy is fantastic if you can afford it. Since I’m still poor, I shell out money for a nice massage (short-term solution) when I’m really really tense.
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MixedAnimals77 said:
Pretty much what aj said. I see a chiropractor at least once a month if not twice. Getting up and moving&walking between classes and stretching helps a ton. If you can also get a daily workout with abs that helps. Heating pad. Extra lumbar support so like a rolled towel in the lower back portion. Unfortunately I dont have much for the neck pain other than try and sit up more to correct your posture vs hunching over your tablet.
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Doggo Labs said:
Last year I got whiplash pretty bad snowboarding, and I went to a chiro. Saw them 2x per week for 2 weeks and they fixed my neck right up! They used electrical muscle stimulation, adjustment and massage. It worked wonders. I hope you can find something that works for you!
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This is helpful to hear. I've heard mixed things about chiropractors and don't actually know anyone who has used one so I wasn't sure if it would be useful. I'm going to try massage first and see if that helps but I'll definitely hit up a chiropractor if not.

Stroganoff said:
Stuff
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Thanks for the information! I have a doctor's appointment in a few weeks so I'm going to definitely talk to her then about the back/neck pain and about my increasing migraines which I assume is stress from vet school but who knows. Plus my mattress is not the best even though I got a really nice topper for it so might need to invest in a good pillow.
 
+1 for the theracane/knock offs. I have one that I use probably weekly now to work out the knots in my back. Really great if you’re not afraid to dig into them.
 
Dinashadow said:
Does anyone have any advice of how to deal with back and neck pain from sitting in an uncomfortable lecture hall all day? I'm leaning over my tablet too much and the chairs are terrible. I get up and walk around/stretch during breaks between classes and it's helped a little bit but not nearly enough. I'm a chronic migraine sufferer too so the neck pain just seems to radiate up into my head and is making me miserable.
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I have back pain between my shoulders that gets worse due to carrying a backpack. Like, I don't notice it on the weekends... it's legit just during the school week.

Anyways, during undergrad I spent a couple months going to a chiropractor. I stopped due to one experience when I was on the bus going home and all of a sudden I started having horrendous neck pain like I've never experienced and attributed it to the regular adjustments (note.. it hasn't happened again since and I've not ever been back)

Instead, like @johnnaboo , I spent some time going to a PT for as long as my insurance covered it. The massages. The electrotherapy. It was all great. Of course, that's long done now, but learned my problem was I had to build up my muscles and stretch them out and that's what started me going to the gym. If I have a day that I feel achy, I go to the gym and then the next day I feel great.

So, that'd be my recommendation if $$ allows - PT.
 
I'd hit up an MD before doing the chiro thing. Make sure there isn't some underlying cause first because if there is a chiro can make it worse. Chiro on neck can also cause stroke and vessel dissection and has killed a number of people...so I'd be getting imaging via an MD before I'd ever let a chiro near me.
 
DVMDream said:
I'd hit up an MD before doing the chiro thing. Make sure there isn't some underlying cause first because if there is a chiro can make it worse. Chiro on neck can also cause stroke and vessel dissection and has killed a number of people...so I'd be getting imaging via an MD before I'd ever let a chiro near me.
Click to expand...
I think the vein dissection thing actually happened to someone @PippyPony knows
 
vetmedhead said:
I think the vein dissection thing actually happened to someone @PippyPony knows
Click to expand...
Yes!!!!! Omg a chiropractor partially dissected my good friend's vertebral artery and she almost died

What's even worse is that she went to one chiropractor who caused the injury, then later on that day she felt neck pain...which was actually a massive clot forming...and she almost went to another chiropractor for a readjustment 😱

She had been going for years. Be careful!!!!
 
Yeah these are the horror stories I've heard about that have made me want to avoid a chiropractor. I'm definitely going to talk to my doctor before I consider going that route. Mostly wanted recommendations on what I can do to help while I'm in lecture and at home in the meantime so I appreciate all the suggestions.
 
Stroganoff said:
I have actual mixed opinions on DPTs and DCs and LMTs for various reasons. Some are knowledgeable. Some are quacks. I may or may not expand on this.
Click to expand...

Wall of text below. I only spew village so much about this topic because it's so radically taken over my life [for the worse] the past decade, and I've spent many thousands and thousands of dollars on medical care and alternate care and many hundreds (thousands?) on alternative care. I've learned a lot. YMMV. Everybody's different. Different root causes. Different treatments. Different outcomes. I've become extremely cynical/jaded at traditional practice of human medicine in the US.

Below are my anecdotes and opinions. I hope there's minute value that can be gleaned based on seeing good and bad DCs, good and bad PT practices, and decent and meh LMTs. At least I hope it saves you time and money if you see any of these.

DPT
  • My general opinion from many dozens of visits at different companies is that physical therapy -- at least the body of knowledge -- is medically sound and quite good at resolving/improving issues. It requires discipline and patience since many issues take months of slow improvement.
  • Quality varies, however. My first PT group was a "McGym" which was a corporate chain (Benchmark) spread out over many states with offices in suburban strip malls. Basically a huge gym with some private patient rooms for the initial consult. But subsequent consults were done at a 1:2 or 1:3 or 1:4 DPT:patient ratio. So basically your PT would be like "OK, do [these exercises]," then he/she quickly moves to the other patient. I'm cynical, since I know these practices are stretched thin (or maybe greedy corporate model?) but I didn't feel like I was getting any good attention at $100-200/visit at 2-3x per week. I think once you get the general gist, most of the work is done on your own at home, for free.
  • My last neurology office had an attached PT clinic with 1-2 DPTs. It was legit 1:1 ratio, and I had almost an hour to myself with the DPT. And we really clicked! I geeked out big time with him and I really encouraged him to not water down the med speak, and he got excited and busted out textbooks and diagrams and went over imaging/MRIs and really explained to me what he was trying to accomplish with each [weird, awkward] exercise and exactly what muscle(s) he was trying to re-educate. Sadly, I moved, so we had to break up. 🙁 He definitely lit up though and was like "Most patients either don't understand or don't care to understand" and said some other cynical things that I'm not supposed to repeat publicly lol. But I think the 1:1 ratio + finding a DPT who has extra training (like a fellowship kinda?) really helped blow my mind.
  • That said, there are cons: I think when it comes to lots of the hands-on therapy, DPTs in my experience don't know what they're doing. But this could be anecdotal. I've heard some DPTs doing dry needling, trigger point therapy, myofascial release, taping, and other stuff that I've never experienced. All I know is the DPTs that tried to do some basic 1st rib maneuvers by bouncing on my shoulder didn't really feel like they had the physical strength or weight to do anything. Same with them trying to to Posterior-to-Anterior (P to A) High Velocity Low Amplitude (HVLA) maneuvers on my T-spine and L-spine. I feel like while there's overlap between what DPTs and DCs do, I think when it comes to traditional maneuvers, DCs have considerably more classwork and a larger bag of tricks/methods. (But I overall think DCs vary more considerably in their trustworthiness compared to the average DPT.)

DC
  • Oof, this is a big one and controversial, especially on a site like SDN. The general kneejerk reaction on this site (as well as my layman impression of the average medical community) is dismissal, rejection, arrogance, etc. And a quick PubMed citation on the risks of vertebral artery dissection +/- stroke +/- death. And mocking at the definition of subluxation. And mocking at long-term efficacy of "adjustments." I think there's truth to much of this, as there may not be peer-reviewed studies on lots of what DCs do. And yes, people have definitely gotten injured.
  • I think there's WIDE variability in the knowledge, intelligence, training, technique, and training of many DCs. There's some decently smart ones and there's some *****s out there. And many just want repeat visitors forever to sustain business.
  • I'm skeptical of the DCs that upsell: one I've seen did fancy 3D imaging of my feet and wanted to sell me $300? shoe inserts. I declined. Another one's profit center was focused around expensive nutritional supplements, but at least this one was more honest.
  • One DC mentality I hate and I think largely is responsible for medicine's [warranted] criticism of chiropractic is that they believe that ALL ailments are caused by spinal issues and can thus be treated or improved by their therapy. I think this is a pile of :bullcrap: Diabetes? Chiropractic! Pregnant? Chiropractic! Kidney Failure? Chiropractic! I exaggerate...but not really. I think these chiros can burn in hell with their quackery.
  1. First DC had excellent demeanor and set the gold standard for patient interaction. <3 Holy crap he was so kind and patient. Buttttttt ineffective long-term. His method was 100% using the drop-table along the entire spine. Zero hands on adjustments, and nothing c-spine. I don't know the official method, but I just call it drop table. He wrote a page-long e-mail to me at the end of every visit (pretty cool actually, but I hope he doesn't burn out from caring this much!) and we had long talks the whole hour+ long session, and I learned a lot of general health stuff. I didn't know what bone broth was for example. And he introduced me to "binaural beats" (look it up, there's apps...basically stereophonic sound...one frequency in one ear, and another frequency in another ear, and they induce a resonant frequency in the brain that can induce alpha waves, delta waves, etc. that mimic what you're trying to accomplish e.g. concentration or deep sleep). This guy was honest and said "If I can't fix you in about 3 visits, we'll stop."
  2. 2nd DC was more traditional. I think the main method used is "diversified" method. He did some drop table stuff but also tradtional snap-crack-pop that most people think. This is the guy that made me watch a BS intake video that every ailment is due to stress and can be fixed with chiro and tried upselling the shoe inserts. He cross-trained in acupuncture too and had this electronic thingy (like an ear piercing machine) with a needle he'd stick in my ear cartilage and go, "Oh Yeahhhhhhh, you got lots of activity here.....ooooohh" while he's zapping my ear cartilage with electricity. I'm thinking "Ow, this hurts, and WTF are you even doing you quack?" That was ****ing weird. He WAS effective however with general c-spine and l-spine/sacral-iliac stiffness. I definitely loosened up immediately after he worked on those regions, and the appropriate HVLA P-to-A thingy on upper T-spine/C-spine immediately "melted" my muscle spasms! So that was a "key" I think to what works for my issues. Long-term this guy was too quacky for me and wanted me to keep coming back forever.
  3. In 2019 I discovered a new method of chiropractic called the Gonstead Method, largely from running across Dr. Rahim's channel on YouTube. Then I looked up the Gonstead Method on their official website and compared it with Diversified and other methods and it resonated with me with how conservative it is and how it's more...focused on a few things...plus I felt that there might have been more "thought" or analysis going on as opposed to just cracking your entire spine randomly.

    At least Dr. Rahim (based in Los Angeles) seemed to paint a rosy picture. I found a Gonstead-exclusive dude in my area. $250 initial consult -- expensive compared to most traditional street-corner DCs that use Diversified. This guy was scatterbrained. His cell phone kept ringing and he kept answering it during our visit -- and one call was a cruise company as he was booking a cruise, which felt like a poor thing to do in front of someone who's giving you $250. He did much of the same stuff as what Dr. Rahim did on YouTube BUT kept losing his train of thought until I reminded him. A lot of Gonstead Methodology (heck, even the McKenzie Method of Physical Therapy) prioritizes sacrum/lumbar area first as the base of the "tower" of your spine as other issues can fall in place. This dude couldn't release my lower back at all, and I watched his confidence melt from his face lol as he stuttered and said "Well uh, as we get to jive with each other on subsequent visits..." He jumped around to C-spine. Honestly? This dude SUCKED. I did a 2nd visit but same thing. I'm still willing to give Gonstead Method of Chiropractic a deeper look, but it's so hard to shop around for a good one, yanno? I might just steal $1000 and fly out to LA and see Dr. Rahim, I'm that desperate.

I think I have a page full of bookmarks to actual medical literature on some of the benefits of chiropractic as an adjunct to traditional medicine, but I'd have to find it. I think if you find the right DC who is limited in scope and not a full-blown quack and who focuses on actual MSK issues of the sacrum, spine (including C-spine), there may be good results and long-term results.

LMT

  • Overall, I think a good professional massage therapist is worth their weight in gold, but they're not all equal, and it depends on your issues.
  • There's huge variability in quality/cost: Your McMassage chain like Massage Envy might be fine for suburban soccer moms who like groupons and BOGO punch cards, but -- Nevermind, I'm biased.
  • Swedish is great for relaxation. BUT if you have existing issues with your neck, back, shoulders including stupid muscle spasms from hell, knots from hell, trigger points from hell, I think Swedish and anything is a waste of money. Get "fixed" first in my opinion. Otherwise anything "light" will -- sorry not sorry -- not have any effect whatsoever. You'll be so tense and spasmed and literally numb that you literally won't really feel their hands. Swedish has value but only after you're "normal."
  • First, my "meh" experiences with LMT #1, who was attached to a DC's office. I used a coupon and was a massage virgin. My first massage she would. not. STFU. the. entire. time. And she talked about the Vietnam War and Agent Orange and death and suffering, and I was thinking "JFC lady, I think I'm more stiff and spasmed now than before I walked in the door." This person also preferred using lotion instead of massage oils. I guess it's professional preference, but [see below] oils are the way to go, full stop. The "room" was very sterile feeling, not unlike a doctor's clinic. I felt like this one wanted to milk me for profit because she kept wanting me to schedule and pay in advance for like x visits. And she was like "You NEED a gluteal massage." Maybe I'm a tight-ass, or maybe she's a perv. Either way, after ~3 visits, I moved on. SOME things felt good, but any relief was maybe 20 minutes. She did not release any muscle spasms or knots.
  • Find a good massage therapist that does "therapeutic massage" or "medical massage" that generally entails lots of deep tissue massage and myofascial release and stretching. The ones I've seen and been to are solo private practices vs. a chain. I found one that was amaze-balls, and she got in deep and made me hurt. I told her to wreck me and not spare anything. She was sweating and panting, and I had to remember to breathe through the intense pain. I think $60/hour + tip. 1 hour session for initial experience is good. Highly recommend subsequent sessions be 90 minutes -- you get more bang for the buck that way as the initial several minutes you're on your back as they release your occiput then do warm ups and stretching. 90 minute sesh is worth it but expensive. 120 minute if you're loaded. This therapist was amazing and her massage room was #goals with perfect relaxing music, dim lights, aromatherapy, good bed/table, and she used oils instead of lotion. I did feel some short-term release/relief. She also said I was tighter/tenser than a 90-year-old, and I couldn't get full relief of my cervical muscle spasms. At all. They remained tight despite stupid deep tissue attacks! So at least for me personally, I know that certain chiropractic HVLA from a good quality Gonstead DC might un**** my messed up joints and THEN go with deep tissue. For now massage is a waste for me, but I still highly recommend "therapeutic/medical" massage for those of you who aren't as ****ed-up joint-wise as me. At least try 2 visits with the same person and go from there. 🙂

Oh, before I forget:

Acupuncture

  • My n=1 experience and first impression was "meh" and "wtf" and "rip-off" and "quackery!" "pseudoscience!"
  • These were a husband-wife team with legit acupuncture training in mainland China and practiced here.
  • I thought it was weird af how [across her desk in her office] she took my [outstretched] arms in her hands and then took my radial pulses (both wrists) for like...2 minutes. 5 minutes? I dunno. It was long as hell. Maybe she wansn't checking my pulse, because that's dumb and she kept talking. "It's good to exercise." Thanks for the acupuncture advice!
  • The actual acupuncture sesh: I lied on my tummy on their table, and they stuck in like...20? 30? 50? Thin gauge sterile needles all over the neck/upper back region. I assume in areas that were expertly chosen and totally not random. But all the needles were attached to electrodes that all connected to this goofy machine. Have you heard of TENS therapy? (Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation). You can buy your own unit and many DPTs have fancy TENS machines. Personally they did NOTHING to me. Anyways, the acupuncture doctor dude turned on the zapping machine then left the room for like 20 minutes without communicating wtf he was doing and why he was leaving and how long he would be gone. And I'm stuck there held captive with 50 needles all electrocuting me like "Welp, this is happening. :lame: " It was a glorified TENS unit but instead of external via sticky electrodes attached to skin, the zapping was sent deeper. The unit had a timer and played this Chinese melody when it was done, and the dude came back, removed the needles, then went, "Do you feel better?" And I went "Nope, I feel exactly the same." Because they did exactly jack **** to me. Here's your $60 and I will never see your office again and have moved acupuncture WAY down my list of alternative therapies to try.


Wrap Up: I'm personally stuck with 1. Find a good DC to un**** some of my messed up joints, causing immediate release of muscle spasm, improved ROM, and relief. THEN 2. Lots of quality diligent physical therapy at home to strenthen the atrophied muscles + let the overworked muscles chill out for once. THEN 3. Years after I contintue improving, only then seek out therapeutic/deep massage.

And if the day comes where I find resolution after 10+ years of hell, I will be damned sure to sing the praises of what worked and what didn't. I'm in hell right now, and I largely think MSK issues are the primary root cause to my central sleep apnea, since 1) cervical traction and 2) HVLA adjustment are literally the only things that have "released" my cervical muscle spasms and opened up my airway, letting me take deep, full breaths of air. I truly think that my C4-C6 issues are leading to nerve pinching, and I think that area innervates the lungs/diaphragm? I gotta look into that. But MD/DO board certified physicians aren't willing to entertain the idea that MSK could be the literal root cause to my central apnea -- instead I've been brushed aside for many years as I rot away from sleep deprivation (since 2012) and am a zombie shell of what I used to be. 🙁

Don't be like me! FIX YOUR POSTURE IMMEDIATELY AND PERMANENTLY BEFORE IT SPREADS TO OTHER JOINTS AND OTHER MUSCLES ATROPHY!
 
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johnnaboo said:
+1 for the theracane/knock offs. I have one that I use probably weekly now to work out the knots in my back. Really great if you’re not afraid to dig into them.
Click to expand...
Have you learned a good technique or read any of the trigger point books? I feel like a beginner just digging around and holding pressure for a minute then releasing. :shrug: Like I don't get any actual relief personally...the muscles only release after HVLA maneuver of the right joints at the right angle.
 
Dinashadow said:
Yeah these are the horror stories I've heard about that have made me want to avoid a chiropractor. I'm definitely going to talk to my doctor before I consider going that route. Mostly wanted recommendations on what I can do to help while I'm in lecture and at home in the meantime so I appreciate all the suggestions.
Click to expand...
Definitely don't go around school, because that was where it happened...
 
Dinashadow said:
Mostly wanted recommendations on what I can do to help while I'm in lecture and at home in the meantime so I appreciate all the suggestions.
Click to expand...
- Make friends with horse people and people with ballet training. Seriously. They understand strict posture. There's also posture corrector devices that help teach good posture.
- Have classmates take your picture (without your knowledge) lateral view in lecture then show you the pic. You'd be surprised when you're "slipping."
- Bob & Brad YouTube physical therapy example videos! And if your doctor authorizes/recommends PT, your PT should show you lots of stuff.

I think I have some posts in the Computer Thread, this Ranting thread, and Suggestions for Items for First Year thread on good ergonomics at home for preventive purposes.

- laptops are terrible by design. too low for your eyes, but if you raise the laptop it's too far for your arms/shoulders. Catch-22 lose-lose. At home, need to buy a laptop stand, separate mouse, keyboard, and good monitor (at good height).
- look into keyboard ergonomics
- beware of forward head posture and shoulders forward posture when studying, at the computer, or texting. there's nice GIFs/diagrams on how to set up a good desk.
- keyboards should have negative drop, not positive. In other words, those feet on the backs of keyboards that raise the back? That wrecks your wrists -- don't use them and flatten your keyboard on the desk if nothing else. Ideally you want the back of the keyboard to tilt down:
keyboard-platform-with-negative-tilt.jpg

Standing desks are bae and prevent lots of poor posture issues. At least use proper lumbar support -- most chairs suck at lumbar support and the rest of the spine superior to that compensates in a domino effect. And then your neck compensates.

Additionally for the carpal tunnel people (or those who want to prevent it): mice tend to overpronate the hand. Look at ergonomic mice with a good 45, 50, 55 degree tilt. More like a "handshake" position. I might buy a cheap Anker ergonomic mouse this week for $15 and see how it is. Better than splurging on a $150 ergo mouse at this point.
​
41hz%2Bc0V7gL._SY300_QL70_.jpg


Keyboards -- in addition to tilted away from you -- should also be "tented" with the same gist as tenting a mouse: to avoid overpronation:
ergokeyboard-lowres-4156-570x380.jpg

Oof enough. Hopefully your Doctor helps you! :luck:
 
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