RANT HERE thread

Veterinary Science Graduate Programs from U. of I.
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So the school that accepted me for a residency program seems to think that I completed my BSc... even though I only did 3 years. Somewhere some wires got crossed or I filled out a form wrong or something, lmao. I will end up having my BSc before starting the program due to back-transferring credits, but in the mean time I get to write an awkward email :whistle: pls don't kick me out of residency thx
 
PippyPony said:
Yes!!!!! Omg a chiropractor partially dissected my good friend's vertebral artery and she almost died

What's even worse is that she went to one chiropractor who caused the injury, then later on that day she felt neck pain...which was actually a massive clot forming...and she almost went to another chiropractor for a readjustment 😱

She had been going for years. Be careful!!!!
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Chiros dont cause vertebral artery dissections. The force required to actually initiate a dissection is not possible. The dissection was already there and he or she missed it. Anyways all this talk about everyone on here of everyone in this thread actually knowing someone who had a dissection from a chiropractor statistically would be impossible. the incidence of a dissection from a chiro alone is less than 1 in 1 million. people seriously exaggerate. Im a former chiro and medical student so I know both sides here. People are misinformed
 
Dinashadow said:
Yeah these are the horror stories I've heard about that have made me want to avoid a chiropractor. I'm definitely going to talk to my doctor before I consider going that route. Mostly wanted recommendations on what I can do to help while I'm in lecture and at home in the meantime so I appreciate all the suggestions.
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Go to a chiropractor who is a CCSP or DABCSP they know what theyre doing. Chiro manipulation and soft tissue will get you out of pain the quickest. Source: i am a former chiro and current med student so i know both sides. Some chiros are quacks but if you go to the ones i said (simple google search in your area) youll thank me
 
Deecee2DO said:
Chiros dont cause vertebral artery dissections. The force required to actually initiate a dissection is not possible. The dissection was already there and he or she missed it. Anyways all this talk about everyone on here of everyone in this thread actually knowing someone who had a dissection from a chiropractor statistically would be impossible. the incidence of a dissection from a chiro alone is less than 1 in 1 million. people seriously exaggerate. Im a former chiro and medical student so I know both sides here. People are misinformed
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1) that's not a statistical impossibly, as stated it is improbable but not impossible.
B) I know you don't mean it to sound like it, but there's no reason to be defensive. As far as I know, no one is bashing the entirety of the chiropractic profession.
Pineapple) welcome to the pre-vet forum :welcome:
 
I'm really worried about this dog! She's a week post-op and has had q8h pain meds the whole time. It's waxing and waning, but her pain is getting worse. Last night she hit 11/24 on the Glasgow pain scale with meds on board, and I don't think she's dropped below a 4/5 yet. Recheck today, but we can't afford another surgery if she's leaking somewhere 😢
 
Coopah said:
1) that's not a statistical impossibly, as stated it is improbable but not impossible.
B) I know you don't mean it to sound like it, but there's no reason to be defensive. As far as I know, no one is bashing the entirety of the chiropractic profession.
Pineapple) welcome to the pre-vet forum :welcome:
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Honestly I could care less im not a chiropractor anymore I just know the facts. I am coming from experience so its funny when people try and give advice about something in which they have no experience. trying to give sage advice and demystify a common misconception. The whole thing about not going to a chiro because they cause dissections is ludacris haha statistically more likely you go to the emergency room and the nurse gives you the wrong med and kills you but people never mention that. Yet if 1 chiro appears to instigate a dissection and then rumors start that all chiros cause dissections
 
Deecee2DO said:
Chiros dont cause vertebral artery dissections. The force required to actually initiate a dissection is not possible. The dissection was already there and he or she missed it. Anyways all this talk about everyone on here of everyone in this thread actually knowing someone who had a dissection from a chiropractor statistically would be impossible. the incidence of a dissection from a chiro alone is less than 1 in 1 million. people seriously exaggerate. Im a former chiro and medical student so I know both sides here. People are misinformed
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Ok well she was in the hospital for a week and a neck brace for weeks and weeks after, and that's what her vascular surgeon said, so :shrug:
 
PippyPony said:
Ok well she was in the hospital for a week and a neck brace for weeks and weeks after, and that's what her vascular surgeon said, so :shrug:
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There's also quite a bit of literature about this, the only literature I could find that was adamant that chiropractors were not at fault for incidents like this were from chiropractors writing for chiropractic journals.

Meanwhile lots of case reports of these dissections happening in patients following chiropractic adjustments and multiple case-control studies showing up to a 6 fold increase in risk of developing a vertebral artery dissection in people under the age of 45 who have received chiropractic adjustments of the neck within one week prior to the dissection event.

Other studies are more equivocal and rightfully point out that it is entirely possible that people are seeking neck adjustments because they are experiencing neck pain from a dissection that is already occurring prior to the visit. However, there is no definitive research into how causative this relationship between adjustments and dissections is and interpreting this as proof that chiropractic adjustment is not at fault is just poor interpretation of the available science.

ER physicians and neurologists feel that questions about recent chiropractic adjustments are relevant history to collect in suspected dissection cases. The study "proving" that adjustments cannot dissect an artery were also performed on cadavers and compared to the amount of force needed to essentially cause complete failure of the integrity of the artery, which isn't how dissections work.
 
PippyPony said:
Ok well she was in the hospital for a week and a neck brace for weeks and weeks after, and that's what her vascular surgeon said, so :shrug:
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Im sure her vascular surgeon went to chiro school lmao. Too many people take “hear say” as gospel. Theres a lot of bs in the medical field too cant believe everything you hear
 
Deecee2DO said:
Im sure her vascular surgeon went to chiro school lmao. Too many people take “hear say” as gospel. Theres a lot of bs in the medical field too cant believe everything you hear
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Are you in DO school now? For what it is worth, my sister is a DO who learned OMT in school and she was fully on board with "chiropractor-related injury" as an etiology for my friend's injury.

What else can't we believe?
 
I have more of an issue with the fact that chiropractic medicine is largely a new practice that started based on anecdotal evidence and it manipulates a very sensitive part of the body. Acupuncture has been around long enough to have proven scientific research showing improvement related to pain and the risks are far lesser. Never been to an acupuncturist personally, but going forward I would consider them over a chiro.
 
PippyPony said:
Are you in DO school now? For what it is worth, my sister is a DO who learned OMT in school and she was fully on board with "chiropractor-related injury" as an etiology for my friend's injury.

What else can't we believe?
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Did your friend go to med school (DO) AND chiro school? if not her opinion is moot
 
Deecee2DO said:
Did your friend go to med school (DO) AND chiro school? if not her opinion is moot
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Stahp the over-defensiveness. :caution: I assume you're smart/self-aware enough to see how confirmation bias and perception are working and that you're not helping tout the benefits DCs can provide that many people aren't aware of due to the many bad apples in the profession.

The risk is low but not non-zero by any stretch. You'd give a more favorable impression on the profession by highlighting the real benefits and expertise in fixing x, y, or z rather than letting the conversation be dictated solely by VAD. For example, many people don't understand the nuance between diversified vs. Gonstead vs. other methods that DCs use.
 
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Deecee2DO said:
Did your friend go to med school (DO) AND chiro school? if not her opinion is moot
Click to expand...

Saying you can't understand the literature about chiro caused vessel dissection if you didn't attend chiro school is bull****. If you understand how to read scientific literature which is going to encompass the vast majority of those in the medical fields you should be able to critically review scientific data. I mean, I didn't attend naturopathic school, I'm not an ND, but I'm fairly well aware all their science is crap and doesn't support any of the methods they use.
 
Stroganoff said:
Stahp the over-defensiveness. :caution:

The risk is low but not non-zero by any stretch. You'd give a more favorable impression on the impression by highlighting the real benefits and expertise in fixing x, y, or z rather than letting the conversation be dictated solely by VAD. For example, many people don't understand the nuance between diversified vs. Gonstead vs. other methods that DC use.
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DVMDream said:
Saying you can't understand the literature about chiro caused vessel dissection if you didn't attend chiro school is bull****. If you understand how to read scientific literature which is going to encompass the vast majority of those in the medical fields you should be able to critically review scientific data. I mean, I didn't attend naturopathic school, I'm not an ND, but I'm fairly well aware all their science is crap and doesn't support any of the methods they use.
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Show me literature that demonstrates the incidence of cervical manipulation. You will be shocked at the discrepancy of the results of the facts vs what you hear about. You are more likely to have an adverse effect from taking NSAIDs
 
Deecee2DO said:
Show me literature that demonstrates the incidence of cervical manipulation. You will be shocked at the discrepancy of the results of the facts vs what you hear about. You are more likely to have an adverse effect from taking NSAIDs
Click to expand...

I've done the research, I've read the papers. I'm not spending my morning off posting them here to someone with confirmation bias. I've also been told by a neurologist who has seen these deaths and helped the families that in order for the families to get compensation for their loss they're told they can't discuss their loss. So I do firmly belive this occurs more than reported but gets swept under the rug because people won't be compensated for the negligence otherwise.


You also have to admit the risk isn't zero. So my original recommendation of hit up your doctor first, get thorough imaging prior to letting a chiropractor manipulate you, isn't an incorrect recommendation. Especially since you claim those who get artery dissection post manipulation already had it. Wouldn't you want patients being screened for that prior to manipulation? I'd think that would make logical sense.
 
Deecee2DO said:
Show me literature that demonstrates the incidence of cervical manipulation. You will be shocked at the discrepancy of the results of the facts vs what you hear about. You are more likely to have an adverse effect from taking NSAIDs
Click to expand...
It's as if you didn't read or understand my post which gives me a lot of cognitive dissonance in my assumption that everyone on SDN is gifted. Please re-read my post or at the very least remove my post directed towards you if you didn't mean to address me and quoted me by accident. You are fulfilling the Streisand Effect, dude, and I'm getting the very impression that I was wrong about your level of self-awareness.
 
DVMDream said:
Agreed. Pineapple on pizza is an abomination.
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Show me the literature that demonstrates that pineapple on pizza contributes to the risk of vertebral artery dissection, ectopic pregnancy, or schizophrenia. If you had gone to DC school, you would have a markedly different position! :rage: 😛
 
Stroganoff said:
Show me the literature that demonstrates that pineapple on pizza contributes to the risk of vertebral artery dissection, ectopic pregnancy, or schizophrenia. If you had gone to DC school, you would have a markedly different position! :rage: 😛
Click to expand...

I ate pineapple on pizza once and started hearing the fans talk. That is all the proof you should need! 😉
 
Stroganoff said:
Stahp the over-defensiveness. :caution: I assume you're smart/self-aware enough to see how confirmation bias and perception are working and that you're not helping tout the benefits DCs can provide that many people aren't aware of due to the many bad apples in the profession.

The risk is low but not non-zero by any stretch. You'd give a more favorable impression on the profession by highlighting the real benefits and expertise in fixing x, y, or z rather than letting the conversation be dictated solely by VAD. For example, many people don't understand the nuance between diversified vs. Gonstead vs. other methods that DCs use.
Click to expand...
My general recommendation is to git gud at interpreting scientific literature and being able to discuss topics where you know your bias is going to show. Basic skill that any professional should have, and understanding that other people are perfectly capable of disagreeing with you AND that neither of you necessarily have to be incorrect.
 
Pepperidge Farm remembers...that Costco thinks a hot dog is a sandwich. 😡

costco_hotdog_sammich-jpg.258026
 
Squeaksmom said:
I'm really worried about this dog! She's a week post-op and has had q8h pain meds the whole time. It's waxing and waning, but her pain is getting worse. Last night she hit 11/24 on the Glasgow pain scale with meds on board, and I don't think she's dropped below a 4/5 yet. Recheck today, but we can't afford another surgery if she's leaking somewhere 😢
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Not sure what pain meds she's on but maybe try switching them up? When my parents old dog had a leg amputated (osteosarcoma) she would wobble around and vocalize and basically act like her pain was poorly controlled. Then we removed the fentanyl patch and she was suddenly running through the yard like she'd been born with three legs. Not saying that's what it is, but it was surprising to us, she was just reacting poorly to the fentanyl.

Sent from my phone using the mobile app because I bought it and I'm stubborn
 
kcoughli said:
Not sure what pain meds she's on but maybe try switching them up? When my parents old dog had a leg amputated (osteosarcoma) she would wobble around and vocalize and basically act like her pain was poorly controlled. Then we removed the fentanyl patch and she was suddenly running through the yard like she'd been born with three legs. Not saying that's what it is, but it was surprising to us, she was just reacting poorly to the fentanyl.

Sent from my phone using the mobile app because I bought it and I'm stubborn
Click to expand...
She arrived at the hospital pale, febrile, shaking, dyspneic, splinting when her abdomen was touched and too weak to stand.

Several tests and an incidental discovery later (as in they weren't looking for it, not as in it was insignificant)....

Aspiration pneumonitis, likely from regurgitating during recovery, probably some respiratory depression from the pain meds, and a huge abscess under her incision. The incision itself looked perfect, but while they were setting her up for subcu fluids a tiny area split open, literally one stitch, and an impressive amount of disgustingness just poured out all over the place. No free abdominal fluid on ultrasound.

Stop the opioids to help her breathe better... she only had one day left regardless. Dilute chlorhexidine and warm compresses on the abscess. And obviously antibiotics. Continue her gabapentin and pred (less than 1 mg/kg but just enough to control allergic signs when combined with other interventions), which she's been on for years.

We had to carry her out to the car and it took three of us to get her in there. We first tried to get her out under her own steam with a sling, but we got her sitting up and she just kind of tipped over and collapsed in slow motion, trembling, so that obviously wasn't going to work. And this is a super stoic dog! She has some peripheral neuropathy in her hindlimbs and this is the second aspiration event, so the vet and I are both suspicious that there might be some subclinical larygneal paralysis going on. The first one I didn't think much of - she'd been swimming and then had vomited due to a dietary indiscretion - but two in less than a year has alarm bells going off. She very rarely barks, so it's hard to assess for voice changes, and between the neuropathy and arthritic hips and stifles it's hard to evaluate exercise tolerance.

Recheck in a week, when we have a week off from school so I'm going to be at home 3 hours away. I'm coming back down for a medical appointment myself that week, so I'm happy to bring her down with me, but I can't take her into my neurologist's office. Checking to see if I can drop her off, go to my appointment, and pick her up again afterwards. Sounds like that should be fine, but the person who needs to confirm it wasn't in.

But she's hanging in there, and should start to feel better once the abscess settles down and the antibiotics kick in. Actually not doing too bad for an 11 year old Lab!
 
Squeaksmom said:
She arrived at the hospital pale, febrile, shaking, dyspneic, splinting when her abdomen was touched and too weak to stand.

Several tests and an incidental discovery later (as in they weren't looking for it, not as in it was insignificant)....

Aspiration pneumonitis, likely from regurgitating during recovery, probably some respiratory depression from the pain meds, and a huge abscess under her incision. The incision itself looked perfect, but while they were setting her up for subcu fluids a tiny area split open, literally one stitch, and an impressive amount of disgustingness just poured out all over the place. No free abdominal fluid on ultrasound.

Stop the opioids to help her breathe better... she only had one day left regardless. Dilute chlorhexidine and warm compresses on the abscess. And obviously antibiotics. Continue her gabapentin and pred (less than 1 mg/kg but just enough to control allergic signs when combined with other interventions), which she's been on for years.

We had to carry her out to the car and it took three of us to get her in there. We first tried to get her out under her own steam with a sling, but we got her sitting up and she just kind of tipped over and collapsed in slow motion, trembling, so that obviously wasn't going to work. And this is a super stoic dog! She has some peripheral neuropathy in her hindlimbs and this is the second aspiration event, so the vet and I are both suspicious that there might be some subclinical larygneal paralysis going on. The first one I didn't think much of - she'd been swimming and then had vomited due to a dietary indiscretion - but two in less than a year has alarm bells going off. She very rarely barks, so it's hard to assess for voice changes, and between the neuropathy and arthritic hips and stifles it's hard to evaluate exercise tolerance.

Recheck in a week, when we have a week off from school so I'm going to be at home 3 hours away. I'm coming back down for a medical appointment myself that week, so I'm happy to bring her down with me, but I can't take her into my neurologist's office. Checking to see if I can drop her off, go to my appointment, and pick her up again afterwards. Sounds like that should be fine, but the person who needs to confirm it wasn't in.

But she's hanging in there, and should start to feel better once the abscess settles down and the antibiotics kick in. Actually not doing too bad for an 11 year old Lab!
Click to expand...
I'm glad she's doing okay!
 
Deecee2DO said:
The whole thing about not going to a chiro because they cause dissections is ludacris
Click to expand...

i haven't heard luda's take on it actually

also please tell your chiro colleagues to stop doing their BS woo on dogs with intervertebral disc disease it's totally different than in people thanks
 
nyanko said:
i haven't heard luda's take on it actually

also please tell your chiro colleagues to stop doing their BS woo on dogs with intervertebral disc disease it's totally different than in people thanks
Click to expand...
Im not a chiro anymore im a medical student so I dont have them as colleagues. why dont u tell them that yourself since ur a vet and probably have more time on your hands than I do
 
A guy in my Orgo class showed up today looking like hell. Turns out he has the flu and a fever! We’re kind of friends (acquaintances?) and we’ve studied together. Anyways, I was a little annoyed. I’m not a germaphobe per say but if you’re sick, stay home. He didn’t even know if he was contagious or not. I get that you don’t want to miss an important class and such, but I think the professor would prefer you stay home and work something out than potentially infecting an entire classroom of students including the professor themself!

I’d also like to add that I was annoyed because I don’t want to be sick. Ain’t got time for that. All the infected need to be quarantined!!!
 
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