RC is overrated......a necessary vent session

[terpsbb9]

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This whole reading comp. importance is ridiculous. Now granted I'm bitter b/c I scored an 18 and got frapped, but unless you fall below the minimum for schools (17) then it should be good enough. I mean I get it, your gonna have large amounts of reading and you have to be able to understand it, but unless a professor walks over and drops a paper on your desk without you ever seeing it and says here read this and we have a test on it in 45 minutes, who cares. The first two years are nothing but sciences and clinical stuff. I would think the PA would be far more important than RC. What is more important, being able to read an x-ray and diagnose a patient or being able to read really fast. We're talking about making great practicing dentists, not a dentist who can simply get through dental school with straight A's. I understand the competitive nature of the scores and gpa, but i've met some 4.0 students with 22's who are currently in dental school and have the eye-hand-coordination of an infant and the social skills of a monk. Now don't get me wrong, I know there are students out there with great scores, great dental backgrounds and worthy applicants, but all too many times I see scores overtaking professional attributes. Fortunatley, I have heard from reliable sources that a few schools including Pitt, Maryland and Midwestern are focusing more on students who would make great dentists rather than boy geniuses. Obviously I'm a bitter applicant who is on the edge of addmission, but I think I have some valid points. I'm not talking about the slackers who didn't put in the work, but the students with average scores who get denied each year and would make perfect dentists. Well thats all for my vent, sorry if I offended anyone and I guess I should throw up some of my stats so people can pick apart what I said and judge me (I don't mind, I'd do the same). Good luck to everyone, except for the ones applying to the same schools as me.....haha
3.1 undergrad
4.0 grad school (MS)
19 AA 20 TS 22 PA
Tons of dental experience and dental assistant
Athlete in Undergrad

 

[DRHOYA]

I understand what you're saying. I think this brings up a point about the DAT's standardization, especially with the RC. I have done a lot of research as an undergrad..........even published a primary paper, so I am accustomed to reading scientific articles or science/philosophical passages. However, on a stressfull test day with time constraints, give me a random passage about how to construct pianos, and my score will obviously be lower than others who had science passages, or didn't have the same passage I had. Life isn't fair though, so you can't go back and complain about the test. Focus on how well your application is put together, and if your're fortunate to land an interview, talk about it then.

 

[needa20]

i agree. dental and medical schools stress gpa and test scores too high over other factors such as motivation, dextarity, skill, passion, and reason for trying to enter the profession.

for example, I have many asian friends that are strictly doing medical or dental because their parents are almost forcing them. (other races too, but many asian friends of mine). so there are people competing against me for a few dental or medical school seats, who do not want to even practice dentistry or medicine. its very frustrating. Another example would be a relitave of mine who has the personality of a wet mop, but is extremely smart. so he got into school very easlily, but has no manual dextarity skills or people skills, but he had great grades and test scores, so of course he got in easily....

i do think that GPA and Test scores are an extremely important factor for accepting students, but in general i do think they are rated a little to high over the other factors.

I may just be a little bitter too because my stats are just about average too 🙂

 

[Lopyswine]

you guys are sounding just a little too bitter.

the school has NO WAY to measure dexterity and motivation. The school HAS to use something to compare applicants, therefore they use DAT and GPA.

The assumption is that a MOTIVATED student will work hard and therefore receive a high GPA. Its hard to make an argument for a highly motivated applicant with a 3.1. If he/she is so motivated, why the B average?

Also, RC is VERY important in dental school. Its only been 3 weeks and I already have noticed the pure volume of material thrown at us. You have to be able to read and absorb quickly otherwise you fall behind.



P.S. I am saying all this as a student that applied with a 2.9 and 23+DAT. I was rejected. I had to get a MS and reapply later. I was always working as a dental assistant and VERY motivated, however there is really NO WAY to show a school. The best way to show them you are motivated is with a hight GPA and good interview.

 

[alanan84]

If you want to vent about a section, choose the QR. I can actually see a point to the RC.

 

[armorshell]

I don't understand why people assume that just because people are well qualified (High GPA/DAT) automatically means they're not passionate about dentistry.

 

[Daydream46]

If you want to vent about a section, choose the QR. I can actually see a point to the RC.

I agree RC is more relevant than QR... (although i do think the math in QR is pretty easy... because its not about solving.. its about being rational and quick thinking because a good portion of the questions were kind of common sense in a way... especially when it comes to speeds and such)

but I can also see the argument that RC doesnt feel as "standardized" as the other sections... While in Bio you get questions at random.. its kind of luck of the draw for 30 questions... For RC you get a luck of the draw for 3 passages and then your questions are on the passage... when you get stuck with a hard passage it really hurts your chance at 33% of your questions... but so it goes...

Do I hate my 17 in RC? does it disappoint me? Yes and yes... but so it goes.... Im sure its not going to hold me back

 

[alanan84]

I agree RC is more relevant than QR... (although i do think the math in QR is pretty easy... because its not about solving.. its about being rational and quick thinking because a good portion of the questions were kind of common sense in a way... especially when it comes to speeds and such)

but I can also see the argument that RC doesnt feel as "standardized" as the other sections... While in Bio you get questions at random.. its kind of luck of the draw for 30 questions... For RC you get a luck of the draw for 3 passages and then your questions are on the passage... when you get stuck with a hard passage it really hurts your chance at 33% of your questions... but so it goes...

Do I hate my 17 in RC? does it disappoint me? Yes and yes... but so it goes.... Im sure its not going to hold me back

That's funny because to me, RC is common sense. I mean you read some paragraphs and then answer questions that come straight out of the paragraphs.

 

[Lopyswine]

I don't understand why people assume that just because people are well qualified (High GPA/DAT) automatically means they're not passionate about dentistry.

exactly...

 

[klutzy1987]

If you want to vent about a section, choose the QR. I can actually see a point to the RC.

Nah QR tests brains and logic, which are important in life. Math is not something that any monkey can memorize, it has to be understood, and uses all logic. RC on the otherhand, some passages noone will ever do well on and some passages a 6th grader can get a 22 on. RC is the most rediculous section due to its non stardardized and un-uniformed format.

 

[terpsbb9]

Again, I want to stress this is nothing more than me venting about a system that I can't do anything about and a way to argue with people about it to relieve the stress of this whole process.

I didn't choose to vent about QR, b/c you can pretty much throw it out the window. As long as you didn't get crushed by it (<16) then your fine. Those of you lucky enough to be good in math have the chance to up your AA which is fine and will in no way help you as a dentist. As long as you can count money and from 1 to 7 mm I think you'll be ok. Also, I think it is a misconception that you can't show your dedication, passion, manual dexterity and social skills. I'm pretty sure the adcoms have half a brain and can see these things in your application as well as the interview process. It's just the unfortunate circumstances of filling quota's (race, religion, sex) and the pressure from dean's to get high scores to look good. It may sound a little sadistic, but (IN MY OPINION) schools care more about your board scores and how they make their school look, than if your a great dentist. The easy argument is to say, tough **** you should've gotten better grades and in some ways I would agree with you. I'm just saying the increasing importance of gpa's and dat scores is steering the admissions process in the wrong direction.

 

[Fonz]

Here's the thing: In RC practically all the answers are right in front of you (save for the few interpretive questions like tone, etc). I understand the struggle for ESL students but otherwise....

 

[that guy]

if there is a 30% increase in dental school applications from the previous years, then DAT and GPA are important in the screening process. why would they look at a person that has a gpa below 3.0 when there is a person with a 3.6? The latter person must have worked harder in college to prepare for dental school and study for the DAT. there is obviously something working when the DAT has been around for decades to standardize predental students.. just because some kids complain about unfairness due to their low scores doesnt mean a thing to a test thats been working for so long

as for the RC, i think you know the importance of the section.. youre just upset because of your score (which isnt bad imo). I had a biology, psychology, and an essay comparing europe's healthcare to america's - i thought the bio was easy becasue i had studied the topic, but the others were bs. But the RC shows you cant spend tons of time reading and rereading to find answers when you are given such a large volume of information in school (especially during boards)

its a shame that a lot of the applicants are coming in now-aday just because they think it is easier than med school and dentists live a happier life (which they do 🙂). i was so angry talking to people interested in dentistry because of how much they earn- but these people are weeded out during the testing/application and become obvious to teh adcoms.

 

[klutzy1987]

Here's the thing: In RC practically all the answers are right in front of you (save for the few interpretive questions like tone, etc). I understand the struggle for ESL students but otherwise....

Apparently you didnt get the piano passage. The answers there all have to be derived from a prior knowledge of physics and piano. I can read, im not stupid yet that passage is frigging rediculous.

 

[DDSguyLA]

the only reason they stress RC is because you'll read a hell load of it for 2 years (most days)...

 

[DRHOYA]

Apparently you didnt get the piano passage. The answers there all have to be derived from a prior knowledge of physics and piano. I can read, im not stupid yet that passage is frigging rediculous.

I agree with Klutzy on this one, b/c I had the same passages. The other two passages were fine, but the the piano one was complete opposite end of the spectrum, and I felt I had 75% of the questions wrong on that passage alone.......thus my terrible RC score. If given three science passages, instead of 2 + piano, like other test-takers........my score would be different. I'm not going to whine about it though, because it is over. However, how can you explain this to ADCOM's, when all they see is my terrible score, and think that I can't read as well as others, when I clearly can??

I do think the RC is the second most important to TS score.......but when test takers all have different passages.......who's to say you wouldn't get a higher/lower score if given a different test?

 

[terpsbb9]

That guy....your being "dat dude". Clearly we're not talking about students under the 3.0 mark. Dental school is no joke and there is obviously educational standards here. In no way am I trying to ease the difficulty of dental school, and I agree that waaaayyyy too many students apply with misconceptions of the profession. What we're talking about here is that fact that you need to have a 3.4 gpa to even get your application sniffed. I was denied from Nova the day after I submitted my secondary app. check and when I called and asked why they said b/c my undergrad gpa was too low. I have a 4.0 in graduate school and finishing my masters research on oral bacteria and a 19 on the dat, why does it matter that my 3.0 in undergrad was too low. I mean if thats how they do it then I had a 3.9 in highschool I should be able to get into any school I want with a sick gpa like that right?

 

[terpsbb9]

How is it possible that more of you don't think PA is the second most important section. i would say TS def. #1 and then PA. I mean we're talking about a profession where you have to be able to read a 2-D x-ray and interpret in a 3-D manner, do most of your work through a 1 inch mirror and be able to visually understand the entire structure of the tooth without seeing it all. We are going to graduate and become dentists not journalist, mathmaticians or biologists. I'm not looking down on these sections, b/c I understand the selection process and we need them I'm just saying PA should be more important.

 

[Doh Boy Fresh]

i agree. dental and medical schools stress gpa and test scores too high over other factors such as motivation, dextarity, skill, passion, and reason for trying to enter the profession.

for example, I have many asian friends that are strictly doing medical or dental because their parents are almost forcing them. (other races too, but many asian friends of mine). so there are people competing against me for a few dental or medical school seats, who do not want to even practice dentistry or medicine. its very frustrating. Another example would be a relitave of mine who has the personality of a wet mop, but is extremely smart. so he got into school very easlily, but has no manual dextarity skills or people skills, but he had great grades and test scores, so of course he got in easily....

i do think that GPA and Test scores are an extremely important factor for accepting students, but in general i do think they are rated a little to high over the other factors.

I may just be a little bitter too because my stats are just about average too 🙂

UGH, stop stereotyping. This post would have made just as much sense w.o the race crap.

 

[that guy]

That guy....your being "dat dude". Clearly we're not talking about students under the 3.0 mark. Dental school is no joke and there is obviously educational standards here. In no way am I trying to ease the difficulty of dental school, and I agree that waaaayyyy too many students apply with misconceptions of the profession. What we're talking about here is that fact that you need to have a 3.4 gpa to even get your application sniffed. I was denied from Nova the day after I submitted my secondary app. check and when I called and asked why they said b/c my undergrad gpa was too low. I have a 4.0 in graduate school and finishing my masters research on oral bacteria and a 19 on the dat, why does it matter that my 3.0 in undergrad was too low. I mean if thats how they do it then I had a 3.9 in highschool I should be able to get into any school I want with a sick gpa like that right?

if you look around the forums, there are plenty of people who get interviews with GPAs below 3.4 as well as acceptances. they probably have other sections that are stronger and apply earlier but dont say that because you have a sub-3.4 you are disqualified.

I am a third year applicant so ive seen the rejections and interviews. look at my earlier posts: I blamed the structure of the DATs and criticized the admissions committee's reasonings. but the more you think about it, the DAT is used for a reason. my main problem was not applying early and picking the wrong schools. once i researched the schools that would look at my scores, i ended up with 7 interviews this year and counting..

unfortunately, they have to have cut-offs with the insane amount of applications coming in, so yes, if you had a 3.9 you probably would have gotten an interview at Nova (assuming the rest of your application wasnt butchered) sorry but thats how it is. there may be other reasons besides your gpa that you got rejected (whether the adcom wants to discuss it at this time or not). If you got the interview with your 3.0 and someone was rejected with a 3.5 how fair would that be? go look at the rejection thread.. tons of quality people are being rejected with better stats than yours. try looking at other sections of your application- quality of your extracurriculars, volunteer work, research and then complain about the DAT being a BS test. Been there done that, but in the end how else are they supposed to standardize applicants from different educational backgrounds, going to different schools, etc.?

 

[topdent1]

UGH, stop stereotyping. This post would have made just as much sense w.o the race crap.

I didn't find any 'race crap' in his post?!?!

 

[doc3232]

I don't understand why people assume that just because people are well qualified (High GPA/DAT) automatically means they're not passionate about dentistry.

Exactly. Some of those people with high DAT/gpa are giving it their all BECAUSE they are passionate about dentistry.

 

[mddang]

I'm only in college bc my Asian parents are making me.


College is for nerds...

 

[PSU SHC 414]

How is it possible that more of you don't think PA is the second most important section. i would say TS def. #1 and then PA. I mean we're talking about a profession where you have to be able to read a 2-D x-ray and interpret in a 3-D manner, do most of your work through a 1 inch mirror and be able to visually understand the entire structure of the tooth without seeing it all. We are going to graduate and become dentists not journalist, mathmaticians or biologists. I'm not looking down on these sections, b/c I understand the selection process and we need them I'm just saying PA should be more important.

There are published articles (one in particular that comes to mind was jointly conducted by a group of DMDs, MDs, and PhDs to reevaluate the admissions criteria for UNLV) that have looked at the correlation between performance on various sections of the DAT and dental school GPA as well as NBDE scores... despite what your (obviously clouded) judgement tells you, there is strong statistical data that completely affirms the reasoning behind the strong weight that adcoms put behind the RC section.

You can argue all you want about the fairness (or the lack thereof) of how the DAT RC section is standardized, but I think you're not looking at this issue objectively. The thoughts you've expressed here are clearly a result of the frustration you're feeling due to your own performance on this section. Would you be arguing the same thing (so adamantly) if you had scored in the mid-20s on the RC? I think not.

Also, there are a fair amount of dental schools that completely disregard applicants' scores from the PAT section since they've found that it has hardly any validity in predicting DS performance. Take what you want from that...

 

[achilles2]

oh wait....you mad???

 

[terpsbb9]

There are published articles (one in particular that comes to mind was jointly conducted by a group of DMDs, MDs, and PhDs to reevaluate the admissions criteria for UNLV) that have looked at the correlation between performance on various sections of the DAT and dental school GPA as well as NBDE scores... despite what your (obviously clouded) judgement tells you, there is strong statistical data that completely affirms the reasoning behind the strong weight that adcoms put behind the RC section.

You can argue all you want about the fairness (or the lack thereof) of how the DAT RC section is standardized, but I think you're not looking at this issue objectively. The thoughts you've expressed here are clearly a result of the frustration you're feeling due to your own performance on this section. Would you be arguing the same thing (so adamantly) if you had scored in the mid-20s on the RC? I think not.

Also, there are a fair amount of dental schools that completely disregard applicants' scores from the PAT section since they've found that it has hardly any validity in predicting DS performance. Take what you want from that...

First of all, of course this forum was started out of my frustration of getting frapped on one exam and piano on the retake, but that doesn't make my points any less valid. Also, I don't know how your gonna drop "statictical evidence" on this forum. I've done alot of research and am currently writing a thesis. We all know how these research articles work, for every research paper saying the test are valid I'll find you one that says its not. And finally i don't see anywhere in my post saying adcoms "disregard" your PA scores i'm simply saying it should be more important. I can see how you might be able to prove your point by saying "they" (whoever that is) has found no validity in PA scores predicting DS performance. Well no kidding, the bulk of the difficult portion of dental school is the first two years with book work. You are proving my point of schools caring more about a student who can get a 4.0 than someone who will make a great dentist. You tell me which is more important as a practicing dentist, perceptual ability or reading comprehension.

 

[Selso2109]

First of all, of course this forum was started out of my frustration of getting frapped on one exam and piano on the retake, but that doesn't make my points any less valid. Also, I don't know how your gonna drop "statictical evidence" on this forum. I've done alot of research and am currently writing a thesis. We all know how these research articles work, for every research paper saying the test are valid I'll find you one that says its not. And finally i don't see anywhere in my post saying adcoms "disregard" your PA scores i'm simply saying it should be more important. I can see how you might be able to prove your point by saying "they" (whoever that is) has found no validity in PA scores predicting DS performance. Well no kidding, the bulk of the difficult portion of dental school is the first two years with book work. You are proving my point of schools caring more about a student who can get a 4.0 than someone who will make a great dentist. You tell me which is more important as a practicing dentist, perceptual ability or reading comprehension.

I scored a 16 on the PAT, but I know that I have hand and perceptual skills. In an internship program, I got to participate in drilling with the hand piece, performing fillings, indirect vision exercises, practice root canals, and WAXING exercises which required the sculpting of multiple teeth. I completed all of these with a high level of success. I am a case where my PAT is not an indicator of my ability, and I am sure there are others like me.

In regards to the piano RC passage, I had this passage as well, and I was able to get a 23. HOWEVER, I also did lousy on the QR section, a 14. It doesn't make sense to argue over the sections, they both require a degree of logic, some of us are just better in certain areas than in others. We all have different skill sets that we bring to the table.

 

[mddang]

How can a dentist practice if he can't learn the **** in the first place??

and of course how can a dentist practice of he can't visualize a tooth from a picture..

But you know.. A person can easily improve his or her visual perception skills with practice. Well.. maybe not if you're just ******ed when it comes to perceptual ability.


I'm thinking in dental school, you don't have a lot of time to waste, so it's best if you've got some reading comprehension skills.

 

[DRHOYA]

All parts of the DAT are important in one way or another, otherwise they would have done away with certain sections years ago. Some people are better at certain sections that others, thats just they way it is. I personally have always scored low on QR, even in practice tests. The particular DAT I took had what I thought was a difficult piano passage, and despite scores ranging from 20-22 on practice tests....the real day was different. It is a bad indication of my RC abilities. Is this all going to one day determine how good of a dentist I am.......................no.

 

[terpsbb9]

How can a dentist practice if he can't learn the **** in the first place??

and of course how can a dentist practice of he can't visualize a tooth from a picture..

But you know.. A person can easily improve his or her visual perception skills with practice. Well.. maybe not if you're just ******ed when it comes to perceptual ability.


I'm thinking in dental school, you don't have a lot of time to waste, so it's best if you've got some reading comprehension skills.

Haha, this is exactly why I started this forum. Everyone is so uptight it's good to vent. I'm glad you could join us, but I would hardly qualify someone with a 16 or greater on RC as "unable to read". That would be, as you would say a ******ed comment. People like to take things to extremes to try and prove weak points on these forums, but basically we're all bored and looking for something to do anyways otherwise we wouldn't waste our time on forums about someone letting off some steam. Glad I could help, b/c its passing the work day quite nicely.

 

[wootwoot387]

Can't we just acknowledge the admissions committees have been doing this alot longer than we have, and so far have turned out very qualified dentists? I didn't do so hot on certain sections of the DAT, however, I hope other areas of my application will shine through, if it is still not enough to compensate, well the prometric center will see me again and i will just have to reapply. They know what they are doing and they have a reason for weighing things the way they do. I do understand the frustration if you got rough passages though.

 

[hoss19]

That guy....your being "dat dude". Clearly we're not talking about students under the 3.0 mark. Dental school is no joke and there is obviously educational standards here. In no way am I trying to ease the difficulty of dental school, and I agree that waaaayyyy too many students apply with misconceptions of the profession. What we're talking about here is that fact that you need to have a 3.4 gpa to even get your application sniffed. I was denied from Nova the day after I submitted my secondary app. check and when I called and asked why they said b/c my undergrad gpa was too low. I have a 4.0 in graduate school and finishing my masters research on oral bacteria and a 19 on the dat, why does it matter that my 3.0 in undergrad was too low. I mean if thats how they do it then I had a 3.9 in highschool I should be able to get into any school I want with a sick gpa like that right?

i dont think nova is that hard and fast in their decision to reject someone based on gpa alone. use my case as evidence....I had a 3.1 undergrad cumulative gpa (no "science courses"), a 3.9 post-bac (= to my science gpa). My dats were "sdn-average". i got an interview.

terps, you are going to get some interviews, you got some solid stats and seem to be passionate about the profession. plus you played ncaa sports, which is important, esp to schools like usc and others whose curricula require working in a team atmosphere. dont stress too much.

 

[hoss19]

There are published articles (one in particular that comes to mind was jointly conducted by a group of DMDs, MDs, and PhDs to reevaluate the admissions criteria for UNLV) that have looked at the correlation between performance on various sections of the DAT and dental school GPA as well as NBDE scores... despite what your (obviously clouded) judgement tells you, there is strong statistical data that completely affirms the reasoning behind the strong weight that adcoms put behind the RC section.

You can argue all you want about the fairness (or the lack thereof) of how the DAT RC section is standardized, but I think you're not looking at this issue objectively. The thoughts you've expressed here are clearly a result of the frustration you're feeling due to your own performance on this section. Would you be arguing the same thing (so adamantly) if you had scored in the mid-20s on the RC? I think not.

Also, there are a fair amount of dental schools that completely disregard applicants' scores from the PAT section since they've found that it has hardly any validity in predicting DS performance. Take what you want from that...

disclaimer: I had an 18 RC {frapped}

terps is saying that RC doesnt equate to being a good dental practitioner, whereas this measuring stick is liekly relevant to other fields (law, journalism, etc.). YOU are saying that there are studies claiming (previous two words are both operative here) that RC correlates to good grades in d-school and nbde's. I ask you then, does good grades in dschool equate to making a good practitioner? where are those stuidies? otherwise it is a conjecture, at best, and an iffy one at that.

a few dentist that i have worked with couldn't spell CAT if you spotted them the C and the T. however, they exhibit one or more of the following abilities; terrific hand-eye coordination, are great diagnositicians, great with patients, know how to successfully run a practice and manage a staff. while some dental schools strictly admit students based on what that student can "bring" to their school (lets be honest here...Harvard), other consider who will produce a good dental practioner after school.

lets face it, we give schools a ton of info about ourselves, abotu what we have done scholastically and within the profession. it is a tough job on their part to whittle down an list of apps to form a potential class to meet their mission.

i have no idea who said it first, but in this game, "there will be casualties"

 

[Shunwei]

I don't understand why people assume that just because people are well qualified (High GPA/DAT) automatically means they're not passionate about dentistry.

According to some on here, "Passion" is the compensator for people with lower stats. I am not sure if I entirely buy into this, however. A competent dentist, no matter how much desire he has for the profession, must at least have enough innate talent to learn the skills and knowledge for the work. It is a healthy mentality to realize that at some point passion must meet reality.

 

[sl2obel2ts]

YEHHHHHH

I was scoring 21-25 on topscore achiever and kaplan. The real thing was 18!!! and I got rejected by CASE because of this! I wish I got the floating bridge passage.

 

[gogiantsss]

RC is just one of the many hoops that we jump through to become dentists... I dont see people complaining about EC, GPA, etc etc.

The rules were set before the game was played. Learn to play the game.

 

[alanan84]

Apparently you didnt get the piano passage. The answers there all have to be derived from a prior knowledge of physics and piano. I can read, im not stupid yet that passage is frigging rediculous.

Actually I DID get the piano passage and honestly, I didn't even think it was the hardest of the 3 passages. BTW, I got a 21 on RC.

 

[PSU SHC 414]

disclaimer: I had an 18 RC {frapped}

terps is saying that RC doesnt equate to being a good dental practitioner, whereas this measuring stick is liekly relevant to other fields (law, journalism, etc.). YOU are saying that there are studies claiming (previous two words are both operative here) that RC correlates to good grades in d-school and nbde's. I ask you then, does good grades in dschool equate to making a good practitioner? where are those stuidies? otherwise it is a conjecture, at best, and an iffy one at that.

a few dentist that i have worked with couldn't spell CAT if you spotted them the C and the T. however, they exhibit one or more of the following abilities; terrific hand-eye coordination, are great diagnositicians, great with patients, know how to successfully run a practice and manage a staff. while some dental schools strictly admit students based on what that student can "bring" to their school (lets be honest here...Harvard), other consider who will produce a good dental practioner after school.

lets face it, we give schools a ton of info about ourselves, abotu what we have done scholastically and within the profession. it is a tough job on their part to whittle down an list of apps to form a potential class to meet their mission.

i have no idea who said it first, but in this game, "there will be casualties"

Ask doctoothache for the link to this "study"... no one is "claiming" anything here... it's a published journal article.

You're completely naive if you think that in order to be a successful dentist (where success is defined by: 1) your patients and 2) your peers... particularly if you're a specialist who depends on patient references from fellow GPs), all you need is good hand eye coordination, a great personality, and good business savvy.

You could have all the hand eye coordination, personality, and business know-how in the world, but at then end of the day, if you can't properly and efficiently diagnose and treat your patients, all of those "other" factors that a "good" dentist must possess don't mean ****.

So how the hell exactly do you become a good diagnostician and a competent clinician? You're really trying to argue that good grades in professional school and good board scores aren't realiable predictors of the CLINICAL competence of a medical professional? Are you kidding me????

Yes, I completely agree that good grades/board scores don't always correlate with being a "good" (where, as you define it, "good" = good personality and good business skills) dentist, but if you ask every patient out there who is extremely satisfied with their dentist, you'll inevitably find that they'll all unanimously tell you that they're happy with their dentist FIRST AND FOREMOST because of their clinical skills. I agree that in order to maintain longevity and a good patient base, you need to have more than just excellent clinical skills (i.e. those "x" factors you alluded to), but WITHOUT clinical competence, what patient out there would care what personality traits or business skills you have?

And you'd be hard pressed to convince any DS admissions officer or dentist out there that DS grades and NBDE scores are NOT good predictors of how clinically competent you will be once you step out into the "real" world. And how do you acquire those clinical skills?... yeah, 4 years of grueling training... and how do adcoms predict you chances of successfully making it through those endless rigors of training? Yeah... through the "tons of information" they require us to provide to them (where the RC score is a small part of the package that they look at). I agree that the system and process they use to analyze the qualifications of prospective dental students is not 100% foolproof, but what admissions process ever is?

Take the time to read this paper once you get your hands on it... there's a reason that adcoms use the criteria they use to judge an applicant's ability to withstand the training that is required to acquire good clinical skills and knowledge. It's the most reliable and efficient system they have. Keep in mind that our admissions process requires an interview where the sole purpose of this interview is to judge those "x" factors you talk about since they know that interpersonal skills are crucial to this profession. If you think that the selection criteria/process for DS is unfair or inadequate, take a look at the application process for law school where very few (if any at all) schools require personal interviews for admission... it's all a numbers game there.

 

[PSU SHC 414]

According to some on here, "Passion" is the compensator for people with lower stats. I am not sure if I entirely buy into this, however. A competent dentist, no matter how much desire he has for the profession, must at least have enough innate talent to learn the skills and knowledge for the work. It is a healthy mentality to realize that at some point passion must meet reality.

shunwei basically said what i just posted... only in much fewer words (haha). brevity in writing is not actually a strength of mine 😉

 

[vlct0ria]

I don't understand why anyone is attacking this guy for supposedly saying that he assumes people with really good stats are terrible social or practical people. I think he was just venting about the fact that some times it seems "unfair" when people with higher GPA/DAT and less social/dental/personal/etc skills are accepted to dental schools, while the average scores of some extremely motivated students get lost in the sea of applications. I'm sure there are plenty of applicants, and plenty of people on the forums, with great personalities, skills, AND stats...and all of you perfect people just suck. ;P

 

[DRHOYA]

According to some on here, "Passion" is the compensator for people with lower stats. I am not sure if I entirely buy into this, however. A competent dentist, no matter how much desire he has for the profession, must at least have enough innate talent to learn the skills and knowledge for the work. It is a healthy mentality to realize that at some point passion must meet reality.

While I agree with your thoughts, I think it may be an extreme case that people responding in this thread are solely trying to use passion as an excuse for sub-par academic achievements. The OP just wanted to vent in a healthy way..........understandable. Now, back to passion, is it not true that you should have a degree of passion about the field you are going to invest and devote your life to? As a predental student myself, I am striving to do my best academicly, as well as demonstrate passion in the field. Applicant #'s these days are extremely high (compared to 10-15 years ago). Like someone else said before, there obviously have to be academic/DAT cutoffs in order for the admissions process to handle the thousands of applications. However, once past that point, this is where "passion" and experience in the field come into play. With the high number of applicants, say a certain dental school has 80 seats to fill. I guarantee out of the few hundred that interview, 80 will have great academics AND passion for the field. The combination is rewarding, and the ADCOM's know who only fills one end of the spectrum, and may be lacking in the other. Of course there will always be outliers.........applicants with unique stories that get in. But that is neither here nor there......there are always outliers.

The successful dental students of the present who will lead the next generation of health care, I'm sure are able to learn the knowledge and skills required to succeed and improve the field. Otherwise, there would be many students admitted to schools who are not ready academicly, socially, or having a desire to work in the field. If that is the case, then that would mean the admissions process is not working properly. If the admissions process is faulted, then applicants would loose faith in trusting to be fairly evaluated.........and if this extreme example of a scenario continues.........it is no longer positive to the field.

So yes sir, it is a very health mentality to realize that at some point passion must meet reality. In the same context it is also a healthy mentality to realize your own deficits, and work harder to achieve what you are passionate about.........despite that others around you complain about a system they can't change......which will ultimately make them better more qualified dental students----> dentists.........which is the goal of dental education.

I apologize if my response is lengthy. I am writing this as a study break. As PSU said of himself......I believe I also need to work on brevity in writing. 😉

 

[alanan84]

MWAHAHA, you got me, I do play the piano (somewhat play that is). I quit when I started high school but still, this passage was not unfair, nor did I "guess" my way to a 21 on the section. Nowhere in my piano schooling did I ever study the insides, or how many keys it had. While I don't remember exact questions, (that test was a blur) I do remember finding almost all the answers straight from the passage. Now the hormone passage, that one was much tougher in my opinion.

I think people struggle on the RC when they start trying all these little "tricks". It's really not hard; read the passage all the way through and then answer the questions. You find that once you've read the passage, you know where the answers to the questions are and it doesn't take much time to answer them correctly. (STRAIGHT FROM THE PASSAGE!)

 

[Shunwei]

While I agree with your thoughts, I think it may be an extreme case that people responding in this thread are solely trying to use passion as an excuse for sub-par academic achievements. The OP just wanted to vent in a healthy way..........understandable. Now, back to passion, is it not true that you should have a degree of passion about the field you are going to invest and devote your life to? As a predental student myself, I am striving to do my best academicly, as well as demonstrate passion in the field. Applicant #'s these days are extremely high (compared to 10-15 years ago). Like someone else said before, there obviously have to be academic/DAT cutoffs in order for the admissions process to handle the thousands of applications. However, once past that point, this is where "passion" and experience in the field come into play. With the high number of applicants, say a certain dental school has 80 seats to fill. I guarantee out of the few hundred that interview, 80 will have great academics AND passion for the field. The combination is rewarding, and the ADCOM's know who only fills one end of the spectrum, and may be lacking in the other. Of course there will always be outliers.........applicants with unique stories that get in. But that is neither here nor there......there are always outliers.

The successful dental students of the present who will lead the next generation of health care, I'm sure are able to learn the knowledge and skills required to succeed and improve the field. Otherwise, there would be many students admitted to schools who are not ready academicly, socially, or having a desire to work in the field. If that is the case, then that would mean the admissions process is not working properly. If the admissions process is faulted, then applicants would loose faith in trusting to be fairly evaluated.........and if this extreme example of a scenario continues.........it is no longer positive to the field.

So yes sir, it is a very health mentality to realize that at some point passion must meet reality. In the same context it is also a healthy mentality to realize your own deficits, and work harder to achieve what you are passionate about.........despite that others around you complain about a system they can't change......which will ultimately make them better more qualified dental students----> dentists.........which is the goal of dental education.

I apologize if my response is lengthy. I am writing this as a study break. As PSU said of himself......I believe I also need to work on brevity in writing. 😉

I think the current system is working just fine to find the right applicants and students to the field. Interviews are there precisely because you can let your personality shine through (if you have one) or just to impress the school with your "passion" of dentistry. A numbers system is in place to ensure that those interviewed are at least academically prepared for the rigors of dental school. I personally don't see what's wrong with this.

How do you gauge passion anyway? A raw, burning, mad form of love of dentistry, or a cool, calm, calculated mindset? At the end of the day, dentistry is still a job to me, and what defines me in my mind is what I do for fun and as hobbies.

Passion alone will not be sufficient to pursue dreams. You got to have the tools and moves. I can cry about passion all I want, but I doubt that I'd be able to paint like Michelangelo, Winslow Homer, or the likes. That's the reality factor.

This topic seems to garner a lot of interest from pre-dents, because there appears to be a lot of pre-dents with lower stats. I remember there was a thread back where a retired Marine got into Midwestern and was sharing his story despite the fact that he had a sub-3.0 gpa and a 17 DAT. While the story is inspirational, I seriously advise people to not let this whole "Passion is what matters" business get into their heads. If an applicant is in a state where grades represent an obstacle, look in the mirror and do a serious "No-BS" assessment on what's going on. People are built for many different things, so sometimes knowing one's own limitations (can's and cannot's) is actually the most beneficial thing he/she can do, rather than blind "passion" for something.

 

[thethethe]

RC is very important because it shows how fast and well you can read something and understand it.

 

[Gbrando2]

RC is very important because it shows how fast and well you can read something and understand it.

Haha, wow, that is quite astute my friend. Congrats on being the 16th person in the thread to connect those dots for us. Did you read any of the replies before you posted?

 

[DRHOYA]

I think the current system is working just fine to find the right applicants and students to the field. Interviews are there precisely because you can let your personality shine through (if you have one) or just to impress the school with your "passion" of dentistry. A numbers system is in place to ensure that those interviewed are at least academically prepared for the rigors of dental school. I personally don't see what's wrong with this.

How do you gauge passion anyway? A raw, burning, mad form of love of dentistry, or a cool, calm, calculated mindset? At the end of the day, dentistry is still a job to me, and what defines me in my mind is what I do for fun and as hobbies.

Passion alone will not be sufficient to pursue dreams. You got to have the tools and moves. I can cry about passion all I want, but I doubt that I'd be able to paint like Michelangelo, Winslow Homer, or the likes. That's the reality factor.

This topic seems to garner a lot of interest from pre-dents, because there appears to be a lot of pre-dents with lower stats. I remember there was a thread back where a retired Marine got into Midwestern and was sharing his story despite the fact that he had a sub-3.0 gpa and a 17 DAT. While the story is inspirational, I seriously advise people to not let this whole "Passion is what matters" business get into their heads. If an applicant is in a state where grades represent an obstacle, look in the mirror and do a serious "No-BS" assessment on what's going on. People are built for many different things, so sometimes knowing one's own limitations (can's and cannot's) is actually the most beneficial thing he/she can do, rather than blind "passion" for something.

I am pretty sure you stated most of the same things I was talking about, just in a different way.

No one said the system isn't working. I was merely providing an extreme example if we listened to everyones complaints about scores/experience etc... Interviews are awesome, and a great way to show who you really are, which ultimately I would think schools look favorably on candidates with good personalities. Going back to the original argument, while it's ok for the OP to vent, you must realize your own strengths/weaknesses, and there is nothing to blame for your own weaknesses except yourself.



Your description of passion (you first brought the term into play in your original post) is clearly an overstatement. Obviously Michaelangelo has some serious natural ability. For the rest of us aspiring to careers in Dentistry, if we can have the stats to gain acceptance to school and enjoy what we do in our careers, and still at the end of the day have time to pursue our favorite hobbies...........how is that not a great balance? Passion for me is the ambition to succeed in a field that I enjoy working in. If you have no ambition or any "passion" for your career, then why pursue it?? Dreams? Dreams start when you realize you DO have the "tools" to succeed in something. Ambition is drive toward achievement. "Passion".............thats what keeps you going. (keep in mind this is not applicable to aspiring dental students.............but
anything you would like to pursue....hobbies included)

Your story of the Marine was exactly what I described in my original post as an "outlier". And like you said yourself, people shouldn't take those circumstances/stories straight to their head. They should try to make themselves better applicants by improving their weaknesses. But in order to do that, as I think we both agree, you need to realize your own limits, and by working hard you'll open the door for yourself. Those who want it, will eventually get it. I hope one day I can look back as a dental student.

 

[Fonz]

Apparently you didnt get the piano passage. The answers there all have to be derived from a prior knowledge of physics and piano. I can read, im not stupid yet that passage is frigging rediculous.

yea i didnt. If that is the case then it is the test makers' fault.

 

[needa20]

UGH, stop stereotyping. This post would have made just as much sense w.o the race crap.

there was no 'race crap' as you put it. most of my closest friends are asian, and most; if not all; were only going predent/premed because of their parents. I am not saying that this is the general rule, but in my case it is. so realize that i was not saying in general asians to go dental or med because of their parents, i was simply giving my own account. also, if you see my other comment, spoke about my cousin you will see that there is no 'race crap'. 🙄

 

[needa20]

I'm only in college bc my Asian parents are making me.


College is for nerds...

grow up, i was giving my personal example. Myself, and 12 or 15 other students became very close friends while taking and studing for GB, Gchem, Ochem, Physics, Biochem... Giving my example of how it was for myself and my friends, who did not want to go to dental or med school

 

[alanan84]

yea i didnt. If that is the case then it is the test makers' fault.

Exactly, cmon, they expect you to pull answers out of thin air! Haha, what's ridiculous is people blaming being "FRAPPED" or "PIANIOED" for their bad score. Trust me, I got the piano passage and believe it or not, miraculously, the answers ARE in the passage.