RE: Justification for New Optometry Programs

[Jason K]

http://www.drsimonrosenberg.com/d_m_d__versus_d_d_s_.html

Like I said....same thing!

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[xmattODx]

You can put your loans on hold when you go back to school. I'm telling you that I went back with optometry school loans (didn't put them on hold because I was working full time). It is possible.

In the past I was miserable as an optometrist. Absolutely miserable. It wasn't optometry making miserable but optometrists, patients, low fees, etc.

I had to decide to do something else or change my attitude. I did both. I was away from optometry for 2.5 years. I'm working part-time as an OD now desperate to find more work (but can't - more proof of a saturated market) but when I go into work at Wal-Mart tomorrow (a place I absolutely despise) I'm not going to be a miserable optometrist. I'm just going to treat the patient. And between patients I'll be studying for my GRE. Because I've chosen to do something else (that pays less and is harder to find work in!).

You can find a way to make a change. You can buy a practice. You can open a practice. You just need to decide to do it, get (and follow) advice from those who have gone before you. Don't let your debt stand in the way of being happy. From an outsider's perspective you seem to be choosing to be miserable. I mean you're letting a troll on SDN bait you day in and day out!

 

[Jason K]

What about if I tried to start my own private practice? I know you say that the majority of graduates don't do it and just go into retail. Why is that?

There are many reasons that new grads aren't starting offices today. New grads leave school today with 100K to 200K or more in debt and the thought of assuming another huge loan commitment on top of that is terrifying. It's difficult to think of your existing student loan commitment(s), monthly living expenses, and a practice loan, especially in a time when you're just starting out and basically have no idea what you're doing with practice management, billing and coding, etc.

You don't get much in the way of leniency when it comes to student loans, they need to be paid pretty much right from the start. The competition for new patients will be unreasonably stiff in most communities and it would be tough to get to a practical income that could sustain you in a reasonable amount of time. Even in a good situation, it's generally agreed upon that it takes 3-5 years to start making a profit in a practice that was started cold, the money needed to keep you alive for that time needs to be borrowed or you need to work outside your practice until you can build the patient base you need.

The reality is, as a cold start-up, you'll be swamped with competition from every direction unless you set up in a distant corner of the county where there are no other ODs and there's a population of people large enough to support an OD already there. There aren't too many of those places around.

The idea of starting your own office sounds easy enough. Get an OD, borrow some money, set up, and give it a go, but the reality of the situation is that to do that today would be very risky in my opinion. Any practice start-up is a risk in any environment. Even 25 years ago it was a risk, but today, given the state of the profession and the economy in general, the risk would be too high in my opinion. Others might be willing to assume that risk and who knows, maybe it would pay off, but for me, it would be too much. Apparently, others do agree with me because just about no one these days is starting offices after graduation.

 

[Jason K]

You can put your loans on hold when you go back to school. I'm telling you that I went back with optometry school loans (didn't put them on hold because I was working full time). It is possible.

In the past I was miserable as an optometrist. Absolutely miserable. It wasn't optometry making miserable but optometrists, patients, low fees, etc.

I had to decide to do something else or change my attitude. I did both. I was away from optometry for 2.5 years. I'm working part-time as an OD now desperate to find more work (but can't - more proof of a saturated market) but when I go into work at Wal-Mart tomorrow (a place I absolutely despise) I'm not going to be a miserable optometrist. I'm just going to treat the patient. And between patients I'll be studying for my GRE. Because I've chosen to do something else (that pays less and is harder to find work in!).

You can find a way to make a change. You can buy a practice. You can open a practice. You just need to decide to do it, get (and follow) advice from those who have gone before you. Don't let your debt stand in the way of being happy. From an outsider's perspective you seem to be choosing to be miserable. I mean you're letting a troll on SDN bait you day in and day out!

Glad to hear you're on your way out of your situation, sounds like you're on the right track. As far as putting my loans on hold, I don't know how I could do that without racking up some painful interest and a much larger principal. I owe the better part of 200K right now and I'd be adding a TON to my principal if I went on IBR making no payments for several years. Aside from that, I'd have no way to pay for living expenses since my wife does't make much with what she does and student loan living allowances would certainly not keep my family afloat. She pays her student loans and bring home some supplemental income, that's about it. I've thought about taking out a loan to purchase a practice or buy into an office, but given all the craziness that's going on in optometry right now and for the past decade or so, I don't know that I wouldn't be buying a sinking ship. In the future, probably after the presidential election, I might consider buying an office depending on what happens. If Obama gets elected, I think he's going to make things a lot more difficult for all private practitioners, MDs, ODs, DDSs, all of us. Who knows, it might end up driving the value of practices down so maybe an office purchase would be easier to pull off then! If I were single, I'd probably assume the additional debt, bite the bullet and go study to do something else, but I'd have a tough time doing that with a family. Like you, I don't hate optometry, I just hate what's happening to it and the resultant practice mode that I've wandered into because there's nothing else available. I'll figure out some way out of the mess I'm in, but in the mean time, I'm satisfied to let people know of the truth about what an OD gets you these days.....a lot of headaches.

 

[319671]

how would obama being elected make it worse?

 

[Jason K]

how would obama being elected make it worse?

I don't want to get started on Obama, I wish I hadn't even brought his name up because I might melt the keys off this laptop now (I can out-type my wife who used to be a law office secretary!) Obama has an ability to smooth talk, and not much beyond that. He's not pro-small business. He's pro-union and pro-social programs, pro-big government, but definitely not pro-small business. He likes to tell people he's only out to tax the super-wealthy, but anyone making over minimum wage is considered "rich" and needs to pay up. Beyond that, this "Obamacare" is a truly terrifying prospect. Basically, we're going to cram tens of millions of extra patients through the existing pipes. More patients=more income for doctors, right? Not a chance. The money would have to come from somewhere and it's just not there. Plus, we're doctors, we already make too much money, we can afford to give up some income. We're (all doctors who accept medical insurance) going to be seeing more patients in less time for less money if Obamacare sets in. Actually, with medicare cuts almost a certainty, we're going to be doing that regardless, but if his "plan" ever gets put into place, things are going to change for doctors in a big way. The guy likes to make everyone think he's out to back the middle class, but nothing could be further from the truth. He's out to change the US into something it's not, never has been, and never should be. The man scares me and I can't believe he's at the helm right now. Bush was no better, but he was the kind of president you could just "wait out." Obama is trying to do things that may never be undone.

 

[319671]

I don't want to get started on Obama, I wish I hadn't even brought his name up because I might melt the keys off this laptop now (I can out-type my wife who used to be a law office secretary!) Obama has an ability to smooth talk, and not much beyond that. He's not pro-small business. He's pro-union and pro-social programs, pro-big government, but definitely not pro-small business. He likes to tell people he's only out to tax the super-wealthy, but anyone making over minimum wage is considered "rich" and needs to pay up. Beyond that, this "Obamacare" is a truly terrifying prospect. Basically, we're going to cram tens of millions of extra patients through the existing pipes. More patients=more income for doctors, right? Not a chance. The money would have to come from somewhere and it's just not there. Plus, we're doctors, we already make too much money, we can afford to give up some income. We're (all doctors who accept medical insurance) going to be seeing more patients in less time for less money if Obamacare sets in. Actually, with medicare cuts almost a certainty, we're going to be doing that regardless, but if his "plan" ever gets put into place, things are going to change for doctors in a big way. The guy likes to make everyone think he's out to back the middle class, but nothing could be further from the truth. He's out to change the US into something it's not, never has been, and never should be. The man scares me and I can't believe he's at the helm right now. Bush was no better, but he was the kind of president you could just "wait out." Obama is trying to do things that may never be undone.

dont get me started on bush. lol. no wonder you fail as an opto. probably cuz you believe bush wasnt that bad.

 

[Jason K]

dont get me started on bush. lol. no wonder you fail as an opto. probably cuz you believe bush wasnt that bad.

Apparently you don't read very well....you'll need to work on that before you start optometry school. After a comment like that, I must admit, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to know that you will be entering the profession soon. You'll see, my friend.....you'll see.

....Bush was no better, but....

Where I come from, "No better" means "just as bad." It doesn't mean "not that bad." If you haven't taken the OAT yet, I'd put a little extra time into the RC section.

 

[319671]

Apparently you don't read very well....you'll need to work on that before you start optometry school. After a comment like that, I must admit, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to know that you will be entering the profession soon. You'll see, my friend.....you'll see.



Where I come from, "No better" means "just as bad." It doesn't mean "not that bad." If you haven't taken the OAT yet, I'd put a little extra time into the RC section.

feed the troll =)

 

[Jason K]

....people with 150k worth of debt coming out of optometry school will find themselves only making 80k a year in private practice because of oversupply and will take 20-30 years to pay off their loans because of how quickly they will accrue interest. Then they will realize their mistake and will leave the field simply by laissez-faire economics.

DO NOT GO INTO OPTOMETRY UNLESS YOU KNOW THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO WITH THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

(Response to post from: Questions About WesternU's Optometry Program Thread)

Shnurek, I agree with your overall premise here, but I have to point out one flaw in your statement. People coming out these days will not be making 80K in private practice, they'll be making 70 to 85K in commercial practice, and that's if they are fortunate. If they are one of the lucky ones, they'll get a FT commercial gig with benefits, but many will have to string together PT work without benefits to make as full a schedule as possible. The private practice thing is way off, most grads these days are not going to see the inside of a private office unless they're there as a patient.

The reason I point this out is because many people might be ok working in a PP for less than a desirable amount of money (70K to 80K) since the perceived work environment would be better. It would justify the lower pay. The real pain sets in when people realize that their PP goals don't line up with reality and they're spinning wheels as an employee doc at LensCrafters or far worse, America's Best.

The pot is starting to bubble over right now. People are talking more than they used to about this stuff. I think the public will be more aware of what's really happening in our profession; it's almost inevitable. Then, and only then, will people stop flooding into the profession.

As a final note, I truly pity anyone who's a first year optometry student who claims to "hate glasses and contacts." As you correctly pointed out, this is what most ODs do day in and day out. And that is regardless of whether you're in PP or in commercial, that's what most of us do all day long. Anyone going into optometry with visions of being some sort of "specialist" will likely be extremely disappointed with what they end up with after graduation.

 

[Jason K]

Does Western U offer full ride scholarships without the use of loans nor work study to top applicants who have high GPAs and OAT scores?

Unfortunately, we do not offer full ride scholarships. We should soon be able to offer some small scholarships to some students. I do know that our Financial Aid Office keeps students updated on scholarships they might be eligible for.

Best wishes,
Marie

A school that's motivated entirely by profit without concern for its students or the profession which is it force-feeding, will never, not in a million years, offer a full ride scholarship to any student. They have endowment funds which will offer small scholarships (up to maybe $1500 per year) for things like academic achievement, financial need, ethnic status, etc. Those funds are almost universally donated to the school by graduates who wish to give back to their alma mater and give explicit instruction regarding the use of the funds. WesternU OD grads will not be giving a dime back to the program when they get out so I would not expect much in the way of endowments any time soon. A full ride will never happen from one of these places, they want your money too badly.

 

[319671]

A school that's motivated entirely by profit without concern for its students or the profession which is it force-feeding, will never, not in a million years, offer a full ride scholarship to any student. They have endowment funds which will offer small scholarships (up to maybe $1500 per year) for things like academic achievement, financial need, ethnic status, etc. Those funds are almost universally donated to the school by graduates who wish to give back to their alma mater and give explicit instruction regarding the use of the funds. WesternU OD grads will not be giving a dime back to the program when they get out so I would not expect much in the way of endowments any time soon. A full ride will never happen from one of these places, they want your money too badly.

Whoa, you do have all the answers.

 

[Jason K]

Whoa, you do have all the answers.

No, not all of them, but more than you.

 

[sya]

From what I see, it's about the money huh? I think its quite obvious you won't be making salary close to dental/med/pharmacy. Even I know that before I looked into these fields. I personally chose opt. because I wanted to do something I feel is meaningful and not work too hard. I want to have a family, do fun things... have a life; not be stuck somewhere 5 days a week stressed and worn out. I don't care about money... my spouse can take care of the rest. Which is why I think this field is pretty female dominant. And it's not like you can't make high salary in optometry either so it's win-win for me. Ultimately, it's about doing something you enjoy.

PS. Dental is not that great. You make a lot of money but since you charge crazy amounts, not cover by insurance, chances of your patients coming back becomes slim or heck, they don't show up ever again. Not good when you invest time (xrays, molds, exams) and end up getting little profit. Most patients will only do what's cover by insurance, which isn't a lot of $$. I had to sales of mechanical toothbrushes... ugh. At least patients will to buy a pair of glasses.

While in pham/med. you have the stress not doing your job properly and ultimately cause death to your patients.

 

[Jason K]

From what I see, it's about the money huh?

No, it's not. No one in their right mind would go into optometry for the money. There are far more lucrative careers in healthcare.

I personally chose opt. because I wanted to do something I feel is meaningful and not work too hard. I want to have a family, do fun things... have a life; not be stuck somewhere 5 days a week stressed and worn out. I don't care about money... my spouse can take care of the rest.

Sounds like you're choosing optometry for the same reasons I did. You might want to give that some serious thought. Working in most any commercial setting will not be a slow-paced, easy going environment that offers low stress. You will most definitely leave work "worn out." You'll be better off than the guy digging ditches, but he doesn't have to pay 1500 to 2000 per month in student loans. He also doesn't have to work weekends....you most DEFINITELY will. Wanna spend Saturdays with the family?

....Ultimately, it's about doing something you enjoy.

If you enjoy working as a refractionist in a commercial setting seeing a very high volume of patients with little emphasis on ocular health, then you'll be right at home with a career in optometry. It didn't used to be that way, but that's the future for most people entering the profession now days.

PS. Dental is not that great. You make a lot of money but since you charge crazy amounts, not cover by insurance, chances of your patients coming back becomes slim or heck, they don't show up ever again. Not good when you invest time (xrays, molds, exams) and end up getting little profit. Most patients will only do what's cover by insurance, which isn't a lot of $$. I had to sales of mechanical toothbrushes... ugh. At least patients will to buy a pair of glasses.

You lost me on this train of thought. I have no idea what you're referring to.

While in pham/med. you have the stress not doing your job properly and ultimately cause death to your patients.

ODs have been sued for missing pathology that led to permanent vision loss or death. When you have time to do your job as you're trained, the risk of missing something serious is minimal. If you're in a setting that forces you to work a lot faster than is reasonable, skipping dilations on people who need them and penalizing you for referring out patients who need referral, the risk is yours if you miss something. Don't think for a second that you can take a casual attitude towards ocular health and not have to worry about missing something.

 

[imemily]

:troll:​

 

[Jason K]

:troll:

Careful, you're going to get yourself starved.

(....also, if you're going to put up those catchy little sign things, you should place them where people can actually read them. See? ....it's much better on the left.)

 

[Tippytoe]

Careful, you're going to get yourself starved.

(....also, if you're going to put up those catchy little sign things, you should place them where people can actually read them. See? ....it's much better on the left.)

Personally, I think emily needs to get herself a thesaurus so she doesn't have to use the same word over and over and over. Maybe when she graduates middle school she'll have a bit more broad (and mature) input.

But I'll save her a post. "Don't feed the troll". Duh, du, duh!

 

[Jason K]

Personally, I think emily needs to get herself a thesaurus so she doesn't have to use the same word over and over and over. Maybe when she graduates middle school she'll have a bit more broad (and mature) input.

But I'll save her a post. "Don't feed the troll". Duh, du, duh!

Well, all I know is, her posts are most definitely NOT Chuck Norris approved!

 

[Wasab123]

You know I actually applaud you guys for shedding some light on those that want to enter into optometry. I have worked and interned at many practices and many times encounter some interns who think it is greener on the other side..when it is not. For those that are pre optometry, listen to these guys, and make sure optometry is something you want to do. They are not telling you to give up your dreams. Some of you are just reluctant and stubborn to listen to the truth..reality will hit you once you enter into this field. I have interned at a dead private practice where the doctor still believes in treating the practice like a medical office. (Thats never going to happen in optometry..) There are some days where there were ONLY 3 scheduled patients. Welcome to optometry folks!

 

[imemily]

You know I actually applaud you guys for shedding some light on those that want to enter into optometry. I have worked and interned at many practices and many times encounter some interns who think it is greener on the other side..when it is not. For those that are pre optometry, listen to these guys, and make sure optometry is something you want to do. They are not telling you to give up your dreams. Some of you are just reluctant and stubborn to listen to the truth..reality will hit you once you enter into this field. I have interned at a dead private practice where the doctor still believes in treating the practice like a medical office. (Thats never going to happen in optometry..) There are some days where there were ONLY 3 scheduled patients. Welcome to optometry folks!

Too bad it's only anecdotes and personal experiences from two unsuccessful ODs, which makes the entire premise laughable.


Most of your success as an OD depends on what type of person you are. Take for example the two trolls in this thread. They would rather go out of their way to demote the profession than do something about their self-created problems with Optometry.

PS. There are dead medical practices too! It's foolish to assume one failing practice is representative of the profession, but you would obviously already know that.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

No, it's not. No one in their right mind would go into optometry for the money. There are far more lucrative careers in healthcare.

Actually I suspect that most students are interested in healthcare for the money except sometimes they don't meet their goal. By this, I mean like a lot of people want to get an MD to make money, but let's say they can't, so they try to go for the next best option which is a DO (I think), and if they can't, then a DDS, Pharm D., Vet D, OD, nursing, etc.

In other words, they think other health degrees are viable back up options to the MD.

Also is nursing saturated by the way?

 

[Wasab123]

The OD that I worked for is an adjunct professor at an optometry school, which I am not going to mention which one. What is laughable and amusing is hearing this from an amateur pre optometry student, like yourself, who thinks you know so much, yet has not even enter into the profession. To me, that is quite laughable. These optometrists are simply stating the facts and truths about the profession. Whether you agree or not, that is your prerogative. People are not telling you NOT to enter the profession,. NO one is demoting the profession. Since you like to live in a fantasy, EVERYTHING LOOKS BRIGHT FOR OPTOMETRY in the near future. best of luck in optometry school.

 

[imemily]

The OD that I worked for is an adjunct professor at an optometry school, which I am not going to mention which one. What is laughable and amusing is hearing this from an amateur pre optometry student, like yourself, who thinks you know so much, yet has not even enter into the profession. To me, that is quite laughable. These optometrists are simply stating the facts and truths about the profession. Whether you agree or not, that is your prerogative. People are not telling you NOT to enter the profession,. NO one is demoting the profession. Since you like to live in a fantasy, EVERYTHING LOOKS BRIGHT FOR OPTOMETRY in the near future. best of luck in optometry school.

If you are going to convince someone that Optometry is bad, it is pointless to talk about your crappy life as an OD, since its obviously your fault and not the professions fault. Moreover, there are plenty of ODs who would recommend Optometry and would largely disagree with the ongoing negative theme of this thread.

I find it funny how its ALWAYS the ODs who are struggling to do well that post negative sentiments about Optometry! I am not sure what "Facts" you are talking about, since most of the claims concerning Optometry are just that - claims/opinions etc of ODs.

 

[Jason K]

Actually I suspect that most students are interested in healthcare for the money except sometimes they don't meet their goal. By this, I mean like a lot of people want to get an MD to make money, but let's say they can't, so they try to go for the next best option which is a DO (I think), and if they can't, then a DDS, Pharm D., Vet D, OD, nursing, etc.

In other words, they think other health degrees are viable back up options to the MD.

Also is nursing saturated by the way?

I don't know - personally, I don't think people are entering the health professions right now for money primarily, but I'm not entering right now so I could be wrong. When I was in college and grad school, most people had at least some sort of interest in the field they were pursuing and weren't in it just for the money. I can say with almost 100% certainty that most people know that optometry doesn't pay the same as other "doctoral" health professions. When I was in optometry school (certainly not all that long ago), my classmates were mostly after the same thing I was after, a balanced lifestyle, relatively short time to training completion, solid job prospects, a stable career, and solid income potential (not necessarily in that order, but overall, I think that's what people were after).

As far as nursing, I don't know really. I've heard NPs are in demand these days, but it seems like the demand/lack of demand for nurses varies a lot depending on whom you ask. My guess would be that more highly-trained and specialized nurses (and those with managerial experience) would be more sought-after right now, but I honestly can't say that based on any real information.

 

[Jason K]

The OD that I worked for is an adjunct professor at an optometry school, which I am not going to mention which one. What is laughable and amusing is hearing this from an amateur pre optometry student, like yourself, who thinks you know so much, yet has not even enter into the profession. To me, that is quite laughable. These optometrists are simply stating the facts and truths about the profession. Whether you agree or not, that is your prerogative. People are not telling you NOT to enter the profession,. NO one is demoting the profession. Since you like to live in a fantasy, EVERYTHING LOOKS BRIGHT FOR OPTOMETRY in the near future. best of luck in optometry school.

Wasab123, I wouldn't waste your breath on this one - she's a lost cause! Some people just don't listen, they assume. For them, the realities of the world will have to come through experience, not the words of those who have come before them. To those would attack what I say about the shortcomings of optometry as a career choice these days and blame the "complaining" OD, well, I say, "Welcome to optometry, the future is full of wonderful surprises!"

 

[Eyes Only]

One of the main problems I see is that OD incomes have not kept pace with inflation and certainly not with other professions. There are a lot of reasons for this including what appears to be an over supply in many areas.

This is irritating to me and my student loans are all paid off. I'm not surprised that someone with $1,000 to $1,500 per month in student loans wouldn't be thrilled with the way things are going.

I think if you are a preopt student and learn nothing else from this discussion, learn that the less money you borrow, the better. Today students are graduating with $150,000 to $200,000 in debt. If you don't think this will alter the way you live, you don't understand money.

Also consider that more ODs work in commercial practices than ever before. These are basically dead end jobs with 30 day leases (most have a 30 day cancellation clause in the lease).

Instead of arguing with every single OD post on here you should be trying to understand the forces at work in the profession and in health care in general and make sure a career in optometry is really what you want.

There are some good discussions on these forums about pros and cons of residencies, what commercial practice is like, and do we really need more schools.

You should take advantage of all the collective experience that the ODs who are following these forums have to offer. When I was in your position I asked ODs what they thought the worst things about the profession were and what they didn't like about the work. I was limited to a few ODs (this was before the Internet existed).

If you've already made up your mind that you want to be an OD and you are going into this profession no matter what anyone says, then why are you wasting your time here? You should be studying to get better grades and higher OAT scores to make you a more competitive applicant.

 

[imemily]

One of the main problems I see is that OD incomes have not kept pace with inflation and certainly not with other professions. There are a lot of reasons for this including what appears to be an over supply in many areas.

This is irritating to me and my student loans are all paid off. I'm not surprised that someone with $1,000 to $1,500 per month in student loans wouldn't be thrilled with the way things are going.

I think if you are a preopt student and learn nothing else from this discussion, learn that the less money you borrow, the better. Today students are graduating with $150,000 to $200,000 in debt. If you don't think this will alter the way you live, you don't understand money.

Also consider that more ODs work in commercial practices than ever before. These are basically dead end jobs with 30 day leases (most have a 30 day cancellation clause in the lease).

Instead of arguing with every single OD post on here you should be trying to understand the forces at work in the profession and in health care in general and make sure a career in optometry is really what you want.

There are some good discussions on these forums about pros and cons of residencies, what commercial practice is like, and do we really need more schools.

You should take advantage of all the collective experience that the ODs who are following these forums have to offer. When I was in your position I asked ODs what they thought the worst things about the profession were and what they didn't like about the work. I was limited to a few ODs (this was before the Internet existed).

If you've already made up your mind that you want to be an OD and you are going into this profession no matter what anyone says, then why are you wasting your time here? You should be studying to get better grades and higher OAT scores to make you a more competitive applicant.

Do you own your own practice?

 

[netmag]

Since this thread is in the pre-optometry forum, most of the people are in here to share their experiences and thoughts as they pursue a career in optometry. So if you tell them that they are the ones that shouldn't be here, that would be like saying the entire SDN pre-optometry forum should just be deleted.

I don't think people are arguing with every single OD. Only a few of the ones that post here. For example, a quick perusal of your posting history shows that you at least have some variety to your posts and don't seem to be mostly interested in running people away from the profession. For example, I think your post here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=11386624#post11386624
is a really good one. Therefore, I would be more inclined to accept your thoughts at least in regards to some constructive discussion.

However, I'm not sure if you can just defend all people who claim to be ODs posting here as sources people should consider. It does not matter if some of what they say is true or not. If they are posting with a personal agenda in mind and almost everything said is positioned to that agenda, then what really is it worth? Nothing. The reader can indeed get useful information from the internet, but posters leave easy to follow trails that can indicate if they are truly talking as an honest broker or just blindly and obsessively pushing an agenda.

Some seem to say that ignoring obsessive, troll-like, agenda based people is equivalent to ignoring the truth of the problems. That's not true. As you say, there are some threads that discuss the pros and cons of an issue. When they only talk about the cons and do so in a non-constructive manner then perhaps they do need to be ignored. There is a difference.

You don't necessarily HAVE to read things posted by everyone who claims to be an OD on the internet especially if it's clear that they consistently represent themselves poorly. You CAN choose to read things posted by people who at least represent themselves in what you consider to be a professional and thoughtful manner. Of course, not everyone's thinking of how a professional and thoughtful person should post would be the same as mine so I guess some people might be inclined to read and consider things from certain people that I personally would not.

One of the main problems I see is that OD incomes have not kept pace with inflation and certainly not with other professions. There are a lot of reasons for this including what appears to be an over supply in many areas.

This is irritating to me and my student loans are all paid off. I'm not surprised that someone with $1,000 to $1,500 per month in student loans wouldn't be thrilled with the way things are going.

I think if you are a preopt student and learn nothing else from this discussion, learn that the less money you borrow, the better. Today students are graduating with $150,000 to $200,000 in debt. If you don't think this will alter the way you live, you don't understand money.

Also consider that more ODs work in commercial practices than ever before. These are basically dead end jobs with 30 day leases (most have a 30 day cancellation clause in the lease).

Instead of arguing with every single OD post on here you should be trying to understand the forces at work in the profession and in health care in general and make sure a career in optometry is really what you want.

There are some good discussions on these forums about pros and cons of residencies, what commercial practice is like, and do we really need more schools.

You should take advantage of all the collective experience that the ODs who are following these forums have to offer. When I was in your position I asked ODs what they thought the worst things about the profession were and what they didn't like about the work. I was limited to a few ODs (this was before the Internet existed).

If you've already made up your mind that you want to be an OD and you are going into this profession no matter what anyone says, then why are you wasting your time here? You should be studying to get better grades and higher OAT scores to make you a more competitive applicant.

 

[Tippytoe]

Do you own your own practice?

I do. But I'm a loser so...

I started a practice cold right out of school. I also own my own professional office building and have all my student loans paid off. Additionally, I have my home paid off and all of my cars. I'm a Fellow of the American Academy of Optometry. I teach at a medical school. I'm still a loser of course. And I have no idea what I'm talking about. I was also selected as the 'Outstanding Young OD of the Year' by my state association a while back. I've also written articles in Optometric Management and Review of Optometry (professional/trade journals).

But, alas.......I am but a loser to Miss Emily. A loser because I have seen my profession decline dramatically in the last 15 years with no outlook of stopping the freefall toward a "pharmacy-like" job. I've seen many of my classmates jump from job to job to job. I currently know of 2 that are looking for new employement all these years after graduating. They are probably losers too.

There is little state license reciprocity for ODs so you may be stuck in whatever state you settle in initially. If not, you will have to get re-licensed in the state you move to which may be simply a fee or a complete oral and written exam to pass (along with a fee). This is a great trouble for married optometrists with a career spouse that must move for business reasons.

I've seen that only a handful of my class of over 100 started or bought their own practice. The rest slave away for a corporation, hating everything about it ( a few work as employees of OD or OMDs and a few 'hide away' in the military). They work evenings till 7 pm and Saturdays and sometimes Sunday. They miss their kids ball games and school functions. The corporations control them.

As Jason said, it's just not what most of them thought it would be. It's not the product they were sold. I've been fortunate. Most ODs from my 'era' haven't even in a seemingly and arguably 'easier' time (12 yrs ago). Even less nowadays are. Facts are facts.

Oh yea, in addition to being a 'loser', I'm also a 'troll'.

 

[Jason K]

I do. But I'm a loser so...

I started a practice cold right out of school. I also own my own professional office building and have all my student loans paid off. Additionally, I have my home paid off and all of my cars. I'm a Fellow of the American Academy of Optometry. I teach at a medical school. I'm still a loser of course. And I have no idea what I'm talking about. I was also selected as the 'Outstanding Young OD of the Year' by my state association a while back. I've also written articles in Optometric Management and Review of Optometry (professional/trade journals).

But, alas.......I am but a loser to Miss Emily. A loser because I have seen my profession decline dramatically in the last 15 years with no outlook of stopping the freefall toward a "pharmacy-like" job. I've seen many of my classmates jump from job to job to job. I currently know of 2 that are looking for new employement all these years after graduating. They are probably losers too.

There is little state license reciprocity for ODs so you may be stuck in whatever state you settle in initially. If not, you will have to get re-licensed in the state you move to which may be simply a fee or a complete oral and written exam to pass (along with a fee). This is a great trouble for married optometrists with a career spouse that must move for business reasons.

I've seen that only a handful of my class of over 100 started or bought their own practice. The rest slave away for a corporation, hating everything about it ( a few work as employees of OD or OMDs and a few 'hide away' in the military). They work evenings till 7 pm and Saturdays and sometimes Sunday. They miss their kids ball games and school functions. The corporations control them.

As Jason said, it's just not what most of them thought it would be. It's not the product they were sold. I've been fortunate. Most ODs from my 'era' haven't even in a seemingly and arguably 'easier' time (12 yrs ago). Even less nowadays are. Facts are facts.

Oh yea, in addition to being a 'loser', I'm also a 'troll'.

This message is Chuck Norris APPROVED!

 

[imemily]

I do. But I'm a loser so...

I started a practice cold right out of school. I also own my own professional office building and have all my student loans paid off. Additionally, I have my home paid off and all of my cars. I'm a Fellow of the American Academy of Optometry. I teach at a medical school. I'm still a loser of course. And I have no idea what I'm talking about. I was also selected as the 'Outstanding Young OD of the Year' by my state association a while back. I've also written articles in Optometric Management and Review of Optometry (professional/trade journals).

But, alas.......I am but a loser to Miss Emily. A loser because I have seen my profession decline dramatically in the last 15 years with no outlook of stopping the freefall toward a "pharmacy-like" job. I've seen many of my classmates jump from job to job to job. I currently know of 2 that are looking for new employement all these years after graduating. They are probably losers too.

There is little state license reciprocity for ODs so you may be stuck in whatever state you settle in initially. If not, you will have to get re-licensed in the state you move to which may be simply a fee or a complete oral and written exam to pass (along with a fee). This is a great trouble for married optometrists with a career spouse that must move for business reasons.

I've seen that only a handful of my class of over 100 started or bought their own practice. The rest slave away for a corporation, hating everything about it ( a few work as employees of OD or OMDs and a few 'hide away' in the military). They work evenings till 7 pm and Saturdays and sometimes Sunday. They miss their kids ball games and school functions. The corporations control them.

As Jason said, it's just not what most of them thought it would be. It's not the product they were sold. I've been fortunate. Most ODs from my 'era' haven't even in a seemingly and arguably 'easier' time (12 yrs ago). Even less nowadays are. Facts are facts.

Oh yea, in addition to being a 'loser', I'm also a 'troll'.

I never called you a loser, but if you want, you can have that title. You are a troll because you continue to post negative sentiments about Optometry, constantly, when it is agreed that there are some problems with Optometry (as there are with all professions).

Most people understand that there are issues with Optometry, but you continue to repeatedly exaggerate your issues and in the middle, make a good effort in dissuading applicants from considering Optometry, on the basis of your current situation.

Since you have done fine in Optometry, it seems to me that you have a personal agenda on SDN, that is, to scare away applicants for your own personal gains. That's just an observation, and if it is true than I must say it is incredibly sad and ineffective.

My Optometrist has her own practice as well, a partnership I believe. I am not sure about her financials, but from the looks of it, she may be doing just as well as most private practice owners, if not better. I wonder why she doesn't troll SDN like yourself?

Overall, it seems as if you are bitter about the profession as you thought it would be offering you something that it currently does not. It is best to actually do something about your personal situation so that it best fits your desires, instead of complaining on SDN. If that is not possible, perhaps try a career change. Remember, it is never too late!

 

[Tippytoe]

Since you have done fine in Optometry, it seems to me that you have a personal agenda on SDN, that is, to scare away applicants for your own personal gains. That's just an observation, and if it is true than I must say it is incredibly sad and ineffective.

Using your great intellect and logic, since I am already 'set' in life, how will I personally gain by trying to scare applicants away?

 

[Jason K]

I don't think people are arguing with every single OD. Only a few of the ones that post here.

You're right, just the ones who try to consistently tell them something they might not want to hear. Better to hear it now than after they've piled hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of difficult study into a profession that will get them a very different career than they intended.

For example, a quick perusal of your posting history shows that you at least have some variety to your posts and don't seem to be mostly interested in running people away from the profession. For example, I think your post here:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=11527342#post11527342 (Oh, by the way....this is my post )
is a really good one. Therefore, I would be more inclined to accept your thoughts at least in regards to some constructive discussion.

Well, you misquote me all the time so I figured I'd take some liberty with your words. They applied to me here in this instance anyway so I think it's appropriate. I guess this just goes to prove your theory about me wrong, doesn't it? I have to admit, it was quietly enjoyable to use your own words to sink your claim.

However, I'm not sure if you can just defend all people who claim to be ODs posting here as sources people should consider.

Claim to be ODs? I thought only your alter ego, gmch155 was out claiming I was an OD imposter? You should pick one screen name and stick with it; it's tough to keep track of both of you.

If they are posting with a personal agenda in mind and almost everything said is positioned to that agenda, then what really is it worth? Nothing.

The US government has been pushing a one-sided agenda against smoking for years. I guess by that logic, we should ignore their claims that smoking is a dangerous, potentially fatal habit. Perhaps I'd be more inclined to listen to their views if more people in the White House (besides Obama) blazed up once in a while? Maybe if they ran some pro-smoking campaigns, then it would be more credible, right? Your thinking is air-tight, buddy....air-tight.

Some seem to say that ignoring obsessive, troll-like, agenda based people is equivalent to ignoring the truth of the problems.

When you're going to create a new "stage name" because you've "run out of gas" with your ability to discuss the topic at hand, at least try to be a little more cloaked in your presentation. It was painfully obvious that you "reappeared" in a shiny new screen name in a pretty lame attempt to back yourself.

This site is notorious for trashing certain professions in an attempt to get less to apply to x profession.

Jason K (+ others), your obsessive posting definitely throws red flags everywhere. Perhaps you are trying to discourage many in a shallow attempt to increase your chances/profession.

I would love to see a photo of your degree. It'll take 5 minutes. Take a pic, post it here. Prove to us you aren't a low life who is trashing optometry. Prove to us that you are indeed a certified optometrist.

I know of available spots in my area for optometrists. I am in a rural area, but regardless there are job openings.

It's odd how similar you two are, even choosing some of the same unique words like "obsessive" and "trashing." You also return to the same "He's not really an OD" theme on more than one occasion. Pretty pathetic netmag...even for you.

 

[KHE]

I wonder what steps, if any Jason K's classmates who are not having the career they expected have taken towards getting that career for themselves?

There's a lot of complaining about "having to move somewhere no one else wants to go." Well, it seems to me that far too many optometry school graduates expect to live in New York City, the Bay Area, or Southern California and every other place "just sucks and is in the middle of nowhere."

Well....if you're limited to those three geographic areas then yes, you are probably going to have a harder time than most however that is no different than any other field. Wander over to the ophthalmology forum and listen to residents and fellows bemoaning the starting salaries of $125,000 for an ophthalmic surgeon in NYC or San Francisco.

You can always come up with thousands of reaons to not pursue something. Whether it's optometry, or a practice of your own once you can always say that...

a) Optometry is going down the tubes
b) I have too much debt
c) I have too many family responsibilities
d) It's not responsible to assume that much risk
e) What if Obamacare sucks?
f) *insert your own issue here*

And believe me....I GET IT. I REALLY DO. I was Jason K once too. I has all kinds of problems and issues, all exactly what he complains about. I actually left the profession for a few years and taught high school math and science before buying my practice. And I did it while I still had nearly a six figure loan and a new wife and baby at home.

But at the end of the day, the point is that you can get busy doing something about your life which either means finding a different career (yes you can) or trying to make optometry as comfortable as you can for yourself.

 

[Jason K]

I wonder what steps, if any Jason K's classmates who are not having the career they expected have taken towards getting that career for themselves?

There's a lot of complaining about "having to move somewhere no one else wants to go." Well, it seems to me that far too many optometry school graduates expect to live in New York City, the Bay Area, or Southern California and every other place "just sucks and is in the middle of nowhere."

Well....if you're limited to those three geographic areas then yes, you are probably going to have a harder time than most however that is no different than any other field. Wander over to the ophthalmology forum and listen to residents and fellows bemoaning the starting salaries of $125,000 for an ophthalmic surgeon in NYC or San Francisco.

You can always come up with thousands of reaons to not pursue something. Whether it's optometry, or a practice of your own once you can always say that...

a) Optometry is going down the tubes
b) I have too much debt
c) I have too many family responsibilities
d) It's not responsible to assume that much risk
e) What if Obamacare sucks?
f) *insert your own issue here*

And believe me....I GET IT. I REALLY DO. I was Jason K once too. I has all kinds of problems and issues, all exactly what he complains about. I actually left the profession for a few years and taught high school math and science before buying my practice. And I did it while I still had nearly a six figure loan and a new wife and baby at home.

But at the end of the day, the point is that you can get busy doing something about your life which either means finding a different career (yes you can) or trying to make optometry as comfortable as you can for yourself.

Some of us are getting busy doing something to try to better our positions. We're also busy trying to keep people from making a huge mistake in their lives, possibly one of the biggest they will ever make. It's obvious to most people who are entrenched in the profession that it will not offer what most applicants are after; that's clear from discussions on ODWire and from the expectations and hopes that are listed by many pre-ops here on this forum. We both know that. I'm on here trying to make a difference. If more ODs were as vocal as I am and some others are, maybe this problem would not be as out-of-control as it is. We all sit on it. We all talk about it amongst ourselves and complain and complain about how terrible things have gotten, how these new programs are the devil, how the AOA is driving down the profession, how commercial is driving down the profession, how vision plans are driving down the profession, but you know what few of us do? Actually tell the most vulnerable group of people, the ones who will suffer the most from the changes that are taking place now. We don't tell them anything. It's like saying "Well, it sucks, but oh well, if you get your degree, you'll just have to figure out a way to make it work. Perhaps you can move to the end of the Earth, you can take a job you can't stand, or you can simply switch to another career and keep paying your 200K debt. Or maybe you can just lay it all out on the line and take out another enormous loan for a practice purchase." Does it make sense to tell someone who's just starting out to go drop a half million or more into a practice, on top of their school loans, on top of everything else, when you consider the way things are going? You did it, but does that mean that it's a wise move for the majority of those entering the profession now? If that's what it takes to have even a small shot at success, does it make sense to promote the profession as a sound choice? It worked for you quite a while ago, but how are you going to feel if you inspire 20 people do take the chance, and 19 end up failing? Will that 1 out of 20 make you feel like you helped someone? These people listen to you a lot more than me so I'd hope they weren't hanging their dreams on something that is largely unattainable.

I get what you're saying as well. I get it. But look at this thing from the big picture. You, personally, made it work. What made your attitude change? Your personal position. Would you be on here endorsing optometry today if you were still the KHE from many years ago? I doubt it. My point is, it's your own outcome that has changed your outlook and I think that's a dangerous thing. It's like someone who's won the powerball endorsing the game to a bunch of people on welfare. Yes, one of those welfare recipients could win the powerball.

Somethings are beyond the control of those seeking a career in optometry today. Some aspects will be under their control, but many won't be and they simply don't hear that from anyone. All they hear is the "rosey, cotton-candy" crap. My outlook is in line with my outcome, but it's rooted in what's actually happening in the profession. Look at Tippytoe, he's not spinning dials at America's Best or JCPenny and yet he's basically saying the same thing I am. It's the big picture, what's happening to the profession as a whole. I can pick and choose a few ODs here and there who made it work over the past few years and they're content, but I can also hand you hundreds who are miserable. If most people are content and some are miserable, you've got a healthy profession with a few people would probably not succeed in anything. When you have a handful of "happies" and a sea of "miserables," well, then you've got yourself a problem with the profession as a whole.

If optometry were a reasonably stable profession that was on the rise or even maintaining itself, I wouldn't be on here. It's not on the rise, it's sinking and virtually everyone in the field knows that. Everyone sees it, but they only tell each other, not the people who are milling around, waiting to take the bait.

The numbers don't lie. Most of the people entering the profession today will end up on my side of the fence, and they'll likely stay there. All will try to avoid it, and a few will, but most of them won't. They'll get an optometry they did not sign up for and they'll pay a lot of money and time to get it.

 

[Tippytoe]

Using your great intellect and logic, since I am already 'set' in life, how will I personally gain by trying to scare applicants away?

Still waiting Miss Emily. How do I personally gain? In fact, maybe you can explain how I would not gain by the increase number of ODs. There would be more in line to buy my practice in 5-10 years when I sell. Wouldn't I want as many ODs as possible to bid on my practice?

THIS would be a selfish motive. Just like the AOA and Walmart and Lenscrafters and all the schools pumping out new grads at an alarming rate......they ALL benefit financially from more and more ODs graduating. And frankly I will too. The more ODs there are, the less I have to pay them.

But yet, I'm calling for less graduating optometrists.

Waiting anxiously for your reply.

 

[319671]

Still waiting Miss Emily. How do I personally gain? In fact, maybe you can explain how I would not gain by the increase number of ODs. There would be more in line to buy my practice in 5-10 years when I sell. Wouldn't I want as many ODs as possible to bid on my practice?

THIS would be a selfish motive. Just like the AOA and Walmart and Lenscrafters and all the schools pumping out new grads at an alarming rate......they ALL benefit financially from more and more ODs graduating. And frankly I will too. The more ODs there are, the less I have to pay them.

But yet, I'm calling for less graduating optometrists.

Waiting anxiously for your reply.

Maybe this is off-topic, but either way, What would be the most appropriate way to address the oversupply issue in an interview?

 

[Eyes Only]

Since this thread is in the pre-optometry forum, most of the people are in here to share their experiences and thoughts as they pursue a career in optometry. So if you tell them that they are the ones that shouldn't be here, that would be like saying the entire SDN pre-optometry forum should just be deleted.

Ok, so what is your agenda? Are you an OD? A preopt student? Why is your status a "secret".

Maybe you are right, maybe all of the ODs here should leave the forum and let all the people who have yet to enter optometry school tell all the other people who have yet to enter optometry school what this profession is all about.

I thought Jason's original post was a good one, how do the new schools justify more new programs?

And I agree that none of the ODs here have anything to gain by "scaring off the competition". I'm not competing for a job with any of you when you graduate. The more of you there are, the cheaper I can get an associate to work for me. The more of you there are, the more likely I am to find a buyer for my practice. The more of you there are, the cheaper my eye exams will be after I retire.

So I will sign off and let you get back to more important discussions like whether or not to wear pantyhose to your interview.

 

[Wasab123]

The more of you there are, the cheaper I can get an associate to work for me. The more of you there are, the more likely I am to find a buyer for my practice. The more of you there are, the cheaper my eye exams will be after I retire.

So I will sign off and let you get back to more important discussions like whether or not to wear pantyhose to your interview.

 

[319671]

I think the primary concern of people here is how to get to the point where you can buy a practice, not selling a practice. after all it is a PRE-optometry forum.

 

[KHE]

I get what you're saying as well. I get it. But look at this thing from the big picture. You, personally, made it work. What made your attitude change? Your personal position. Would you be on here endorsing optometry today if you were still the KHE from many years ago? I doubt it. My point is, it's your own outcome that has changed your outlook and I think that's a dangerous thing. It's like someone who's won the powerball endorsing the game to a bunch of people on welfare. Yes, one of those welfare recipients could win the powerball.

The powerball?

For me, the issue was and always has been access to medical plans. In the past, I could not be credentialled onto major medical plans to treat medical problems. This left me basically performing routine care on everyone and referring everything else out. I made good money, but I hated it.

Once I was able to access medical plans, I came back to optometry and it's been great since. I know you disagree but I still maintain that the most critical component of success in optometry is the ability to be credentialled by and being able to bill medical plans.

The numbers don't lie. Most of the people entering the profession today will end up on my side of the fence, and they'll likely stay there. All will try to avoid it, and a few will, but most of them won't. They'll get an optometry they did not sign up for and they'll pay a lot of money and time to get it.

Honestly, I think this is much more of an issue of the type of people pursuing optometry than it is optometry itself.

Don't get me wrong. Optometry is loaded with problems. Oversupply is a big issue. Commercialism is an issue. Declining reimbursements from medical and vision plans is an issue.

You imply that it is near impossible to make a go of it unless you're willing to move to some far off outpost of the country where is basically a running scence from Deliverance.

My position is that with a reasonable amount of planning and a reasonable amount of common sense, anyone can make it. Not everyone will as Tippytoe says but anyone can.

 

[Jason K]

My position is that with a reasonable amount of planning and a reasonable amount of common sense, anyone can make it. Not everyone will as Tippytoe says but anyone can.

The whole premise of my argument against optometry being a sound investment is fundamentally different from your view of the situation. The reason is, I'm not looking at things from what one person can do, I'm looking at things with the mindset of what will happen with what everyone will do. More importantly, what their attempts, collectively, will do to the profession as a whole. For the whole profession to be drowned in an abyss of commercial optometry so that a select few can beat the odds and get into the private practice setting they dream of, to me, seems crazy. Yes, a few people may "slip through the cracks" and make a successful career for themselves in the future optometry, but not before the entire profession is ruined because of all those who are unwittingly taking a shot at something that is really not there.

The powerball?

Ok, maybe the powerball was a slight stretch......a slight one.

For me, the issue was and always has been access to medical plans. In the past, I could not be credentialled onto major medical plans to treat medical problems. This left me basically performing routine care on everyone and referring everything else out. I made good money, but I hated it.

I don't argue that access to medical plans has been a great stride for ODs. In this discussion, though, it's almost irrelevant when you consider that most of the people reading this thread will be entering a practice mode that is based almost entirely on the vision model. Corporate optometry doesn't care about eye health and they're not in the business of selling it, they're in the business of selling glasses and CLs. That's my point. The practice mode that you and I and everyone else in optometry dislikes; the "routine eye care with everyone else getting referred out," is what most people entering today will be faced with despite the colossal waste in training that results because of it.

 

[Jason K]

Ok, so what is your agenda? Are you an OD? A preopt student? Why is your status a "secret".

Maybe you are right, maybe all of the ODs here should leave the forum and let all the people who have yet to enter optometry school tell all the other people who have yet to enter optometry school what this profession is all about.

I thought Jason's original post was a good one, how do the new schools justify more new programs?

And I agree that none of the ODs here have anything to gain by "scaring off the competition". I'm not competing for a job with any of you when you graduate. The more of you there are, the cheaper I can get an associate to work for me. The more of you there are, the more likely I am to find a buyer for my practice. The more of you there are, the cheaper my eye exams will be after I retire.

So I will sign off and let you get back to more important discussions like whether or not to wear pantyhose to your interview.

I wouldn't expect an answer to your questions or any sort of response to this post in general; netmag has a nasty habit of running away when confronted with real questions. He also like to invent new screen names to back himself. I suppose I shouldn't criticize; I have pictures of Elton John and Chuck Norris in some of my posts. We all do what we can.

 

[KHE]

The whole premise of my argument against optometry being a sound investment is fundamentally different from your view of the situation. The reason is, I'm not looking at things from what one person can do, I'm looking at things with the mindset of what will happen with what everyone will do.

But I don't think it's NECISSARILY a function of the problems within the profession as much as it is the type of people attracted to the profession. I'm not saying the profession is without problems. I'm saying that the schools are not admitting the right types of students.

More importantly, what their attempts, collectively, will do to the profession as a whole. For the whole profession to be drowned in an abyss of commercial optometry so that a select few can beat the odds and get into the private practice setting they dream of, to me, seems crazy. Yes, a few people may "slip through the cracks" and make a successful career for themselves in the future optometry, but not before the entire profession is ruined because of all those who are unwittingly taking a shot at something that is really not there.

Respectfully Jason, that's the point I'm trying to make. It IS there in most cases. Most people don't unwittingly take a shot. They are unwilling to take the shot in the first place.

 

[Jason K]

But I don't think it's NECISSARILY a function of the problems within the profession as much as it is the type of people attracted to the profession. I'm not saying the profession is without problems. I'm saying that the schools are not admitting the right types of students.

Respectfully Jason, that's the point I'm trying to make. It IS there in most cases. Most people don't unwittingly take a shot. They are unwilling to take the shot in the first place.

KHE, we just look at things differently. It's understandable, you've done very well and you'd like to see others follow with the same success. I get that. But you're looking at it for what theoretically could happen for a small number of people. I'm looking at it for what practically will happen to everyone else.

Whether it's optimal or not, what will almost certainly happen is this.... Thousands will try and a only a few will succeed. That's what all of this boils down to. Unfortunately, the price for those few future successes will be paid by the rest of the profession. We're going to double our numbers here in the near future and in doing so, we might get a few happy ODs out of it, but the profession will be forever destroyed because of the effects of all those who attempted the feat. That's what we're heading towards; 3 or 4 ODs in the US for every one that's needed. That and all of the negatives that go along with such an excess.

So, to draw from another thread.....Don't the needs of many outweigh the needs of a few?"

 

[q1we3]

I want to thank Jason, KHE, and tippytoe for sharing their honest opinions and knowledge. I am pre-optometry student who absolutely agrees with you in terms of the problems being faced by this profession. I wish I could trun back but I am going down with the ship like many of us will. I will try to make the best of this. Luckily, I won't have much loan when I graduate and would be willing to move anywhere in US or Canada to work in non commercial setting. But, even if I end up working in Walmart for rest of my life at least I will have only myself to blame. But, I am glad I know what I am getting into unlike most students who think they have 'made it' once they get into optometry. Thanks. God help us all. lol

 

[Judgment Dragon]

I want to thank Jason, KHE, and tippytoe for sharing their honest opinions and knowledge. I am pre-optometry student who absolutely agrees with you in terms of the problems being faced by this profession. I wish I could trun back but I am going down with the ship like many of us will. I will try to make the best of this. Luckily, I won't have much loan when I graduate and would be willing to move anywhere in US or Canada to work in non commercial setting. But, even if I end up working in Walmart for rest of my life at least I will have only myself to blame. But, I am glad I know what I am getting into unlike most students who think they have 'made it' once they get into optometry. Thanks. God help us all. lol

Are you entering in Fall 2011? If not, it is not too late to turn back.

 

[imemily]

Still waiting Miss Emily. How do I personally gain? In fact, maybe you can explain how I would not gain by the increase number of ODs. There would be more in line to buy my practice in 5-10 years when I sell. Wouldn't I want as many ODs as possible to bid on my practice?

THIS would be a selfish motive. Just like the AOA and Walmart and Lenscrafters and all the schools pumping out new grads at an alarming rate......they ALL benefit financially from more and more ODs graduating. And frankly I will too. The more ODs there are, the less I have to pay them.

But yet, I'm calling for less graduating optometrists.

Waiting anxiously for your reply.

With less ODs, YOU personally have more patients to serve, which would give you a greater chance to increase revenue/practice full scope optometry, get on medical panels etc etc.

AOA/WALMART/LC are NOT the ones pumping out new graduates. That would be illegal I believe, unless there is something going on behind the curtains. I am not sure why new schools are opening? Maybe the government projected an under supply or more demand of ODs relative to the growing population.

 

[imemily]

Ok, so what is your agenda? Are you an OD? A preopt student? Why is your status a "secret".

Maybe you are right, maybe all of the ODs here should leave the forum and let all the people who have yet to enter optometry school tell all the other people who have yet to enter optometry school what this profession is all about.

I thought Jason's original post was a good one, how do the new schools justify more new programs?

And I agree that none of the ODs here have anything to gain by "scaring off the competition". I'm not competing for a job with any of you when you graduate. The more of you there are, the cheaper I can get an associate to work for me. The more of you there are, the more likely I am to find a buyer for my practice. The more of you there are, the cheaper my eye exams will be after I retire.

So I will sign off and let you get back to more important discussions like whether or not to wear pantyhose to your interview.

The schools justify creation of new programs by determining that there will be an aging population.
"Employment of optometrists is expected to grow much faster than the average for all occupations through 2018, in response to the vision care needs of a growing and aging population. Excellent job opportunities are expected. " from BLS.

The more new ODs there are, the more likely it is the patient will visit another OD/newer OD.

You can't get an associate to work for you because he/she will work @ corporate or with an optician due to larger pay. Historically, pp pay has always been less than corporate pay.

The more ODs there are, the higher likelihood that they would start their own practice. This would decrease the value of your practice, in the long run, from a buyers perspective. But yes I agree that you would be able to obtain cheap ODs, but would anyone realistically be willing to work for you when corporate offers better pay?

I don't really know what to say about BLS, but it is far more credible than an anonymous poster. Don't you think!?