RE: Justification for New Optometry Programs

[319671]

Because it's not about you and you alone. You've already made up your mind. There are others who haven't.

Also, as I've said before, no one is "hounding" you. If you don't want to read this thread, which is clearly about oversupply, you don't need to read it.

You provided us with information. You provided EVERYONE who wants to read this thread with information. Its not all about me. Like you said, there are other students who haven't decided, this information is there for them to read whether you repost or not. There is no need for you to continue on defending yourself.

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[Jason K]

You provided us with information. You provided EVERYONE who wants to read this thread with information. Its not all about me. Like you said, there are other students who haven't decided, this information is there for them to read whether you repost or not. There is no need for you to continue on defending yourself.

If the topic is being discussed, I have a desire to be here to discuss it. When you're done and your mind is made up, you're free to go. The moderator is also free to close this thread whenever he chooses. Each thread reaches its useful end at some point and, personally, I think this one is approaching that point.

 

[Jason K]

I agree. It really bothers me when I meet recent grads who gave no thought to how they were going to practice until they graduate. They are working several part time jobs, for the day rates previously mentioned (which haven't gone up in many years) and wishing they had chosen another profession.

I suppose this post is the most efficient means of describing why I'm so vocal about the issues at hand. I thought I was doing the right thing. I talked to practicing ODs, I read up on data that I thought was reliable, I observed and volunteered in private practices, I did what I thought was right. Clearly, I was wrong. There are pre-optometry students on here who have already made up their minds that an OD is their answer. There are others who are still deciding. I'm on here for the latter. I can't stand the thought of thousands of more people filing into optometry as I did, not fully aware of the realities. You guys should consider yourselves fortunate that there are some ODs out there who are willing to tell you this stuff. For those of you who do enter the profession, you may revisit this thread 6 or 7 years from now with a very different outlook. I was one of you not that long ago. I also ignored some negativity and attributed it to people who just didn't measure up. I was going to work harder, be smarter, do better. Think about that.

No one is going to hand you a six figure job when you graduate. It doesn't happen in this profession. In my opinion, the only rewarding way to practice optometry is to be self employed. But you will need to spend some time WHILE you are in optometry school learning about business.

Excellent advice. I would never argue otherwise. But sometimes, even planning doesn't help you avoid pitfalls if there are enough of them. I spent the better part of my optometry school career in private practice clubs, attending society meetings, talking to owner ODs, and trying to get myself into a position of advantage. It worked. I had an "excellent" job waiting for me after residency. Actually, I had a couple of them. What I also had was a salary that could not support my loans and my family. Salaries and offers are dropping and people should think about that.

 

[Jason K]

In fact, your whole premise relies upon the belief that more grads = more saturation = lower pay, BUT, what is funny to me is that the entire survey contains no instances of the words "saturation" , "oversupply", "schools" in relation to the drop in salary.

I think you are running out of pellets.

Emily, you can go on living in a world where everything is peachy cream pies and fluffy blankets, but it's going to bite you some day. You can even go on attacking anyone who presents you with information that doesn't fit your idea of what's convenient today. But if you don't recognize "saturation," "oversupply," issues with "schools," and your absolute need to understand their effects on the profession, your future, and those of your colleagues, then you're in for a real surprise.

 

[netmag]

I don't recall ever asking anyone to take me seriously or live by what I say. I don't give any advice attempting to change their career decisions at all. That's actually an important distinction to make. If someone you don't know at all (anonymous on the internet no less) is obsessively trying to encourage or dissuade you from something as major as that (and I mean aggressively obsessive), you'd be foolish to actually listen to that person. I'm sorry but that's just common sense. It doesn't matter if there are truths in there as well. You can get balanced pros and cons else where and ignore other ones. You don't have to blindly agree with everything from every source regardless of their claimed "status"
Therefore, I don't see why my "status" would matter either. All people really know of a person on an internet forum is how they present themselves in their posts. If they mostly present themselves in a childish, combative manner then it doesn't really matter what "status" they claim to have.

Netmag...

No one is going to take you seriously until you reveal your status (preopt student, optometry student, optometrist) and quit running and hiding every time someone asks you a question.

Yes, this is a pre-optometry forum that is part of the optometry forums, so if you're not in the business, get a hobby and let us talk about the profession without you.

 

[Jason K]

I am not nearly as despondent about the future of optometry as he is but he brings up many legitimate points.

Clearly you recognize that I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from Byron Newman, but you acknowledge that what I'm saying on here is not "out of the blue." However, if you disagree with me that the future of optometry is pretty meager for most people entering it right now, why do you feel that way? What is going to change that will reverse the direction we're headed in right now? Virtually all of the "cards" are stacked against the future of this profession so what is it in the future that is going to bring things back around? Believe me, I would love to think that something drastic is going to happen in the next few years that would reverse things, but do you think that is really going to happen? All of the problems I've been highlighting are not going to go away anytime soon;

Waaaaay too many ODs already with more schools on the way...
Commercial explosion that's a result of the oversupply....
Vision and medical plans gaining more and more control....
Declining reimbursements from vision and medical...
Declining salaries for employed ODs....
Educational costs rising for everyone, not just ODs....
Online glasses and CL retailers making it difficult for PP optical...
etc, etc, etc....


Some of these trends and changes are more significant than others, but in total, they present a pretty unsettling future. So, I guess what I'm saying is, what am I missing?

 

[Tippytoe]

Emily, you can go on living in a world where everything is peachy cream pies and fluffy blankets, but it's going to bite you some day. You can even go on attacking anyone who presents you with information that doesn't fit your idea of what's convenient today. But if you don't recognize "saturation," "oversupply," issues with "schools," and your absolute need to understand their effects on the profession, your future, and those of your colleagues, then you're in for a real surprise.

That's okay. Let's lay off emily. Hey, Walmart will need refracting opticians....errrr....I mean optometrists in the future. I can almost guarantee 100% that she will be wearing a blue vest wth a happy face on it for her entire career. She'll be happy. She is the simple mindset that corporate MBAs love to control. While she's paying off their corporate jets she'll be driving her Hyundai proudly. Good for her I say.

 

[319671]

That's okay. Let's lay off emily. Hey, Walmart will need refracting opticians....errrr....I mean optometrists in the future. I can almost guarantee 100% that she will be wearing a blue vest wth a happy face on it for her entire career. She'll be happy. She is the simple mindset that corporate MBAs love to control. While she's paying off their corporate jets she'll be driving her Hyundai proudly. Good for her I say.

Just because she doesnt agree with your POV doesn't mean you have to criticize her. No wonder you fail. You don't know how to respect others. I mean, I wouldn't expect much more of you. A failed OD

 

[Eyes Only]

I don't recall ever asking anyone to take me seriously or live by what I say. I don't give any advice attempting to change their career decisions at all. That's actually an important distinction to make. If someone you don't know at all (anonymous on the internet no less) is obsessively trying to encourage or dissuade you from something as major as that (and I mean aggressively obsessive), you'd be foolish to actually listen to that person. I'm sorry but that's just common sense. It doesn't matter if there are truths in there as well. You can get balanced pros and cons else where and ignore other ones. You don't have to blindly agree with everything from every source regardless of their claimed "status"
Therefore, I don't see why my "status" would matter either. All people really know of a person on an internet forum is how they present themselves in their posts. If they mostly present themselves in a childish, combative manner then it doesn't really matter what "status" they claim to have.

Your status might reveal if you know anything about the profession. You seem to enjoy dispensing advise to prospective OD students, so what is your knowledge of the profession?

My guess...you have no knowledge.

 

[imemily]

That's okay. Let's lay off emily. Hey, Walmart will need refracting opticians....errrr....I mean optometrists in the future. I can almost guarantee 100% that she will be wearing a blue vest wth a happy face on it for her entire career. She'll be happy. She is the simple mindset that corporate MBAs love to control. While she's paying off their corporate jets she'll be driving her Hyundai proudly. Good for her I say.

Graduates stand to benefit more from working at walmart than the owners of walmart themselves.

Also, I doubt any OD would like working for corporate their entire professional career. If PP docs can't step up and pay the associate what they deserve, which is understandable, than its logical to move onto corporate or whatever mode of practice the OD chooses, be it teaching, residency etc.

The quality of your posts continue to dwindle as the discussion progresses...you don't NEED to convince us that Optometry is dead when its only a reality in your eyes, doc.

 

[Tippytoe]

Just because she doesnt agree with your POV doesn't mean you have to criticize her. No wonder you fail. You don't know how to respect others. I mean, I wouldn't expect much more of you. A failed OD

You might want to read the previous posts Shurlock. Duh, da, Duh!

 

[Tippytoe]

Ya see. Posters like me and Jason and the other ODs post our opinions and that would have been it. A person could read it, agree or disagree, and move on. Shrug their shoulders. Laugh. Cry. Whatever.

That would have been it. BUT. BUT...........when we get a snotty-nosed, know-it-all, that is not even in the field of eyecare much less a practicing eye doc, start disagreeing and even insulting us (your not a real OD), we have to respond back.

We DO KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT in our world. If you disagree that's fine....but don't tells us we are wrong when what we are saying are FACTS taking right from the world around us.

We are not debating questionable topics like life after death or the age of the universe. We are talking about the one thing we live day in and day out 24/7.

Your experience may be different in the long run. BUt then again, you might win the $1,000,000,0000 Lottery too. Chance are you won't win the lottery and chances are you will be unhappy in optometry. Just the facts as we see them in ourselves and all of those we associate with (the internet keeps us in touch with all kinds of docs around the country).

 

[KHE]

Clearly you recognize that I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum from Byron Newman, but you acknowledge that what I'm saying on here is not "out of the blue." However, if you disagree with me that the future of optometry is pretty meager for most people entering it right now, why do you feel that way?

I agree that the future is pretty meager for most who enter it but I submit that it is largely because of the type of applicants that are being admitted to the schools and the fact that they don't think enough about their futures or how they want to fashion the career they want for themselves. Respectfully Jason, they admit too many people like YOU.

And I would also submit that any applicant, in fact most applicants can have the career they want for themselves if they play their cards right. Is it a guarantee? Of course not. No business is a guarantee. Is it easier than being a private practice neurosurgeon? Probably not but then again, it's much harder to become a private practice neurosurgeon.

The fact that a Walmart opens up every 5 minutes does not matter. Most Walmarts just canibalize from other Walmarts. As I've said before, my office is RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO WALMART. You can walk out my front door and within 90 seconds be walking into the front door of a large Walmart store with an optical. And in fact, we moved to this location two and a half years ago. We moved right next door to Walmart and yet we lose no one to Walmart.

What is going to change that will reverse the direction we're headed in right now? Virtually all of the "cards" are stacked against the future of this profession so what is it in the future that is going to bring things back around?

The cards are not any more stacked against anyone now than they were ten years ago. You say the only way people can make it is by moving to the middle of nowhere. There are two practices for sale within a 10 minute drive of my house. Both of them full time optometric practices, one of which I personally know makes great money because I might buy it. And I don't live in some rural town along the Texas border.

You'll respond by saying "oh well yea but that's just one practice." Tons of practices for sale. Tons of opportunity if you think about it and play your cards right. The problem is, most students today are incapable of thinking that way.

So rather than saying "don't do this" why don't you say "these are the mistakes that I made or these were the assumptions that I made that were wrong so if you're going to do optometry you should do x, y, and z....."

Let's hear your x,y and z.

 

[Jason K]

I agree that the future is pretty meager for most who enter it but I submit that it is largely because of the type of applicants that are being admitted to the schools and the fact that they don't think enough about their futures or how they want to fashion the career they want for themselves. Respectfully Jason, they admit too many people like YOU.

I've agreed with you on this point before. And you've also agreed with me that most people who would choose optometry as a profession ARE more like me; conservative, cautious, not high risk-takers. Most people who are applying right now are not going to be comfortable biting off another half million or more in debt on top of the 150 to 200K they already have. Even if they wanted to, many of them would not be able to come up with the financing. IF optometry programs limited their admissions to "business" types with access to financing, you might have a valid argument, but unfortunately, we both know that that will not happen. I simply won't happen. What will happen is that they will admit any idiot who can write his/her name on the student loan forms because they want to fill the seat with a 200K body. I was the wrong type of person to enter optometry when I did. I'm not comfortable assuming so much risk, in a time of so much risk, on top of all the debt I've already mounted. I would have been fine 25 years ago, but not today and certainly not tomorrow. Unfortunately, as you said, it's BECAUSE most of them will be like me; that's the problem with your stance that everything would be fine if all the schools would simply start admitting a new type of student. They won't do it and you can't change that.

And I would also submit that any applicant, in fact most applicants can have the career they want for themselves if they play their cards right. Is it a guarantee? Of course not. No business is a guarantee.

We're in "theoreticals" again. I'll bring up the same questions I've brought up before. Does it make sense to bring in another 35,000 ODs into the profession, doubling our numbers, so that some small portion can get a "successful" outcome? Does that really make sense? You admit that the future is pretty meager for most of the folks starting in right now, so why is that a worth it? Why is it a good thing? You've said before that the "needs of many should outweigh the needs of a few," so why is this situation any different? Shouldn't the needs of the 35000 practicing ODs outweigh the needs of a few "potentially" successful future ODs?

The fact that a Walmart opens up every 5 minutes does not matter. Most Walmarts just canibalize from other Walmarts. As I've said before, my office is RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO WALMART. You can walk out my front door and within 90 seconds be walking into the front door of a large Walmart store with an optical. And in fact, we moved to this location two and a half years ago. We moved right next door to Walmart and yet we lose no one to Walmart.

Again, I've already acknowledged that Walmarts are not going to present stiff competition to established private offices. They do present competition to new ODs; the ones out looking for work after graduation, the ones who would rather not work at a Walmart in the first place. They're pushing their way into optometry and drowning out the respectable part of the profession by "opening up every 5 minuttes." There aren't private offices opening up every 5 minutes, we both know that. In time, the commercial side is going to win unless the "fuel" that drives it is cut off. That fuel, as we both know, is the never-ending supply of excess ODs.

And to say that the fact that the expansion of Walmart and other entities like it "doesn't matter" is incredibly short-sighted, in my opinion. That they are spreading like a bird flu outbreak is a symptom of everything that's going wrong with optometry right now. It is definitely something that matters. Unfortunately, bird flu is self-limiting, commercial optometry is not.

The cards are not any more stacked against anyone now than they were ten years ago. You say the only way people can make it is by moving to the middle of nowhere. There are two practices for sale within a 10 minute drive of my house. Both of them full time optometric practices, one of which I personally know makes great money because I might buy it. And I don't live in some rural town along the Texas border.

You can't honestly say that the "cards aren't stacked up" anymore than they were 10 years ago. If for no other reason than the fact that the pay for ODs is the same now as it was then. Clearly, that's not the only reason, but to say that everything is the same now as it was then is crazy. We have many more ODs, a larger commercial presence, lower pay, online retailers that weren't there, more schools opening up, and a profession that is steaming ever faster ahead towards becoming entirely commercial. Things are most definitely not the same.

You'll respond by saying "oh well yea but that's just one practice." Tons of practices for sale. Tons of opportunity if you think about it and play your cards right. The problem is, most students today are incapable of thinking that way.

Opportunity? Opportunity for what? For a new graduate to buy an office that might not be able to pay for itself in 5 - 10 years due to the changes that are taking place now? I hear plenty of owners talking about selling asap so they can "get the heck out of town" before everything collapses. Many experienced ones believe that their practices will be worth considerably less in a few years so, "why not sell now?" There will be a reason that those practices are worth less then, it will be because they earn less, and if the guy who bought that office tomorrow can't pay for the mortgage anymore because the practice revenue has dropped off so much in 10 years, well then, I guess that guy's just screwed, right?

There are plenty of offices for sale in the US today; that doesn't mean they're all sound investments, especially for a 26 or 27 year old shiny new OD with a few hundred K in debt already. And that's assuming they would even be able to get financing. Yet another reason things are not the same today; it's much more difficult to get financing on just about anything, except student loans. Those are the people who are supposed to get out an buy up all these offices? It's simply not practical to believe the will be able to do so. Even if, in your theoretical world, every OD grad from tomorrow on were a "business type," they would run out of offices to buy after one graduation cycle. And please, please, for my own sanity, don't respond to that with "There would then be a shortage of private offices." There's no shortages of private pharmacies and they've all disappeared too. A few might "saddle up" and do it, most won't. We both know that. The consequences of that fact will be yet another severe kick to the crotch for our profession.

 

[KHE]

I've agreed with you on this point before. And you've also agreed with me that most people who would choose optometry as a profession ARE more like me; conservative, cautious, not high risk-takers. IF optometry programs limited their admissions to "business" types, you might have a valid argument, but unfortunately, we both know that that will not happen. I simply won't happen. What will happen is that they will admit any old idiot who can write his name on the student loan forms because they want to fill the seat with a 200K body.

Your position is that most people will not be satisfied with a career in optometry or that most will not "make it." My position is that most people in optometry CAN make it IF they have the right attitude and do the right planning. It's up to the people applying to think about whether they have the right attitude or are willing to make the right plans.

We're in "theoreticals" again. I'll bring up the same questions I've brought up before. Does it make sense to bring in another 30,000 ODs into the profession, doubling our numbers, so that some small portion can get a "successful" outcome? Does that really make sense? You admit that the future is pretty meager for most of the folks starting in right now, so why is that a worth it? Why is it a good thing?

It's not a good thing. I'm simply saying that anyone (most actually) can make it IF they have the right mind set. The fact that most don't isn't a fault of the profession per se.

Again, I've already acknowledged that Walmarts are not going to present stiff competition to established private offices. They do present competition to new ODs; the ones out looking for work after graduation, the ones who would rather not work at a Walmart in the first place.

If you plan correctly there is no reason that any graduate every has to work in Walmart.

They're pushing their way into optometry and drowning out the respectable part of the profession by "opening up every 5 minuttes." There aren't private offices opening up every 5 minutes, we both know that.

That is because too many young doctors are like you Jason. And please, understand that that's not meant to be a personal attack. You are the type of person who if you graduated 30 years ago, you still wouldn't take any risk because you would always come up with some reason NOT to.

In time, the commercial side is going to win unless the "fuel" that drives it is cut off. That fuel, as we both know, is the never-ending supply of excess ODs.

I don't agree with that. The commercial will simply canabalize on itself. Yes, it will be bad for graduates who work there because they will simply be spreading a similar number of patients over a wider range of commercial optometry. So the key for new graduates is to simply to try to avoid as best they can. Don't think to yourself "i'll take this lease becuase I might make $100,000" Think more long term.

And to say that the fact that the expansion of Walmart and other entities like it "doesn't matter" is incredibly short-sighted, in my opinion. That they are spreading like a bird flu outbreak is a symptom of everything that's going wrong with optometry right now. It is definitely something that matters. Unfortunately, bird flu is self-limiting, commercial optometry is not.

I believe it largely doesn't matter because commercial optometry is competing for the same group of patients.

Opportunity? Opportunity for what? For a new graduate to buy an office that might not be able to pay for itself in 5 - 10 years due to the changes that are taking place now?

Isn't that one of those hypotheticals you hate so much?

I hear plenty of owners talking about selling asap so they can "get the heck out of town" before everything collapses.

I hear of none.

Many experienced ones believe that their practices will be worth considerably less in a few years so, "why not sell now?" There will be a reason that those practices are worth less then, it will be because they earn less, and if the guy who bought that office tomorrow can't pay for the mortgage anymore because the practice revenue has dropped off so much in 10 years, well then, I guess that guy's just screwed, right?

No, it means it wasn't a viable business to begin with. Do your homework. But again, hypothetical right? "IF" the guy can't afford the mortgage? So that's another example of one of YOUR hypothetical reasons to not do something. No matter the situation Jason, you'll come up with some reason to not do something.

There are plenty of offices for sale in the US today; that doesn't mean they're sound investments, especially for a 26 or 27 year old shiny new OD with a few hundred K in debt already, and that's assuming they would even be able to get financing.

Owner financing works great.

Yet another reason things are not the same today; it's much more difficult to get financing on just about anything, except student loans. Those are the people who are supposed to get out an buy up all these offices?

It's simply not practical to believe the will be able to do so.

Have you ever applied for a practice loan?

A few might "saddle up" and do it, most won't. We both know that. The consequences of that fact will be yet another severe kick to the crotch for our profession.

AGAIN, that's not a problem with the profession of optometry. It's a problem with the people who are choosing to enter it.

 

[319671]

KHE, what do you mean about most grads not be able to think "this way"..I geniuinely want to know what you mean.

 

[KHE]

KHE, what do you mean about most grads not be able to think "this way"..I geniuinely want to know what you mean.

I think too many people in optometry school think that as long as they "study hard" and be a "good doctor" that that is enough. It is not. In fact, it's not even the most important thing.

I also think that most graduates don't consider the non-clinical things that make a practice successful. I would imagine they do it for a variety of different reasons. "I'll worry about it later after I'm done with the boards." "I shouldn't have to worry about that. It's not doctorly."

You gotta start thinking about your career before you give one nickel to any optometry school.

 

[Eyes Only]

You gotta start thinking about your career before you give one nickel to any optometry school.

 

[319671]

I think too many people in optometry school think that as long as they "study hard" and be a "good doctor" that that is enough. It is not. In fact, it's not even the most important thing.

I also think that most graduates don't consider the non-clinical things that make a practice successful. I would imagine they do it for a variety of different reasons. "I'll worry about it later after I'm done with the boards." "I shouldn't have to worry about that. It's not doctorly."

You gotta start thinking about your career before you give one nickel to any optometry school.

Mmm. I see. I think that's good advice.

 

[Jason K]

Your position is that most people will not be satisfied with a career in optometry or that most will not "make it." My position is that most people in optometry CAN make it IF they have the right attitude and do the right planning. It's up to the people applying to think about whether they have the right attitude or are willing to make the right plans.

Your argument that "anyone CAN make it, but most will not," seems to be rather dooming to the profession. I'll ask it again:

What benefit will there be for optometry if we let all of those folks in, the ones you readily admit will have a meager future? How will optometry be better off when we have 65,000 ODs practicing instead of the already excessive 35,000? What good will those few success stories be when the whole profession is irreparably damaged because of ridiculous over-supply that's only made worse by more and more people entering every year? You're welcoming people into a profession that does not need them. Perhaps more importantly, it can't support them. That will have lasting effects on all of us. I agree that proper planning in advance will help, but it won't save the vast majority of those entering. That's the reality. Theoreticals are nice, but they don't change the fact that what's going to happen is what's going to happen.

It's not a good thing. I'm simply saying that anyone (most actually) can make it IF they have the right mind set. The fact that most don't isn't a fault of the profession per se.

Again, no one on here is arguing against this point. I certainly haven't. It's irrelevant, though. It just doesn't matter. The fact is, most of the thousands who enter will, to use your words and mine, "have a meager future in optometry." Most of them will not do what you say they CAN do. They will do what they WILL do. That might not be ideal, but it's reality. You keep saying that "anyone CAN make it." I'm saying, that doesn't matter because most of them won't. And because most of them won't, the profession will be further handicapped by all those who try. Schools are going to let in lower and lower quality applicants every year we move ahead. We're going to dilute our profession with lower and lower quality practitioners. How is that going to help us?

The fact is that one of the best things that could happen for optometry would be for many programs to shut down. Even if that happened tomorrow, it would take years for the over-supply issue to stabilize given the current retirement rates. By stating that a few of the additions will be successful, you're basically inviting disaster into the profession because of the thousands of entries that will be necessary to get those unique few. There is NO way to limit entries to those who have "the right stuff" so stating that anyone CAN make it seems pointless.

That is because too many young doctors are like you Jason. And please, understand that that's not meant to be a personal attack.

I don't take that as an attack. I've said it before; I'm not the right type of entry into optometry these days. I'm not enough of a financial risk-taker. Unfortunately, I'm the guy you're stuck with, at least from a financial risk perspective. You're not going to get a bunch of "Steve Jobs" or "Mark Zuckerbergs." You're going to get a lot of folks with my comfort level as far as assuming further debt, except they'll have much lower GPAs and OAT scores.

You are the type of person who if you graduated 30 years ago, you still wouldn't take any risk because you would always come up with some reason NOT to.

Bzzzzzzzz! Wrongo, my friend! I entered optometry school with the full intention of owning. I had full intention of buying into an office and I was prepared to part with the money. What I lacked was an understanding of the realities of that risk level given the current state of the profession. The entire reason I went into optometry was to have my own business and be my own boss. I had no intention of working for anyone else for more than a brief period after graduation. I can assure you, if the profession were as it was 20 years ago, I would have no problem laying out the cash. Apparently, a lot of others felt the same way because that's when they did it. They don't do it today. Why is that? Did the type of applicant change or did the financial climate and the profession change to the extent that people are no longer comfortable assuming such risk?

I'm not sitting at home in my living room waiting for lightning to strike me dead, but I don't think I'd be building a steel-framed farmhouse in a lightning storm either. I'm far from a "risk-averse" type. I take plenty of risks in life, just not unreasonable ones. I hold a private pilot's license, I mountain climb, and before I had kids, I skydived about every three or four months. Those are all "risky" behaviors by anyone's standards. They're also manageable risk that I'm primarily in control of. Dropping an enormous pile of cash into a practice in a profession that's suffering and only getting worse, is not manageable risk. What's more, it puts a lot of the risk squarely out of my control and in the hands of a profession which is heading downward.

I don't agree with that. The commercial will simply canabalize on itself.

You can't honestly believe this will happen, at least not in the foreseeable future. Has commercial pharmacy cannibalized itself? Walmart, Sam's, JCpenny, AB, etc, they're here to stay. They might change shape and pass each other around under different names, but they're not going anywhere.

I believe it largely doesn't matter because commercial optometry is competing for the same group of patients.

This surprises me to have come from you. I know you know more than this. Commercial optometry is affecting the profession well beyond simple competition for patients. Its effects run deep into the profession on every level and they affect everyone, not just other commercial practitioners.

A few might "saddle up" and do it, most won't. We both know that. The consequences of that fact will be yet another severe kick to the crotch for our profession.

AGAIN, that's not a problem with the profession of optometry. It's a problem with the people who are choosing to enter it.

Just about everyone in optometry school, just by being there, has already assumed tremendous risk. They're plunking down a decent sized "practice loan" before they ever even get their degree. To say that everyone these days is totally risk-averse, and that that's the reason for the problem, I think is inaccurate. Optometry school applicants are the same people they were 30 years ago, they just have a lot more debt and a much different profession to enter.

 

[Jason K]

I hear plenty of owners talking about selling asap so they can "get the heck out of town" before everything collapses.

I hear of none.

Have you visited J Martin’s Thread: Why not sell my practice? There’s plenty of owners out there who are thinking that their practices are going to start declining in value over the next 10 years or so due to all the problems I’ve been bringing up. I’m not saying right now would be a wise time for him or anyone to sell as long as they’re doing well, but the point is, they’re thinking about it. They wouldn’t be if my concerns were unfounded.

 

[imemily]

Ya see. Posters like me and Jason and the other ODs post our opinions and that would have been it. A person could read it, agree or disagree, and move on. Shrug their shoulders. Laugh. Cry. Whatever.

That would have been it. BUT. BUT...........when we get a snotty-nosed, know-it-all, that is not even in the field of eyecare much less a practicing eye doc, start disagreeing and even insulting us (your not a real OD), we have to respond back.

We DO KNOW WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT in our world. If you disagree that's fine....but don't tells us we are wrong when what we are saying are FACTS taking right from the world around us.

We are not debating questionable topics like life after death or the age of the universe. We are talking about the one thing we live day in and day out 24/7.

Your experience may be different in the long run. BUt then again, you might win the $1,000,000,0000 Lottery too. Chance are you won't win the lottery and chances are you will be unhappy in optometry. Just the facts as we see them in ourselves and all of those we associate with (the internet keeps us in touch with all kinds of docs around the country).

But that isn't what you are doing. You are trying to dissuade students from applying to Optometry school based on your experience.


If all you were doing was giving us the "facts" than you wouldn't have as many posts as you do right now.

 

[Eyes Only]

I don’t take that as an attack. I’ve said it before; I’m not the right type of entry into optometry these days. I’m not enough of a financial risk-taker. Unfortunately, I’m the guy you’re stuck with, at least from a financial risk perspective. You’re not going to get a bunch of “Steve Jobs” or “Mark Zuckerbergs.” You’re going to get a lot of folks with my comfort level as far as assuming further debt, except they’ll have much lower GPAs and OAT scores.

Unfortunately, optometry doesn't attract entrepreneurs like it used to. Most of the students today are looking for a "good job", not self employment. And I think graduating with $200k in student debt is a huge barrier to practice ownership.

This surprises me to have come from you. I know you know more than this. Commercial optometry is affecting the profession well beyond simple competition for patients. Its effects run deep into the profession on every level and they affect everyone, not just other commercial practitioners.

I used to think there was a limited market for commercial optometric services, however, most of the private ODs I know have experienced lower patient numbers and lower incomes over during this recession. The commercial ODs I know haven't noticed as much of an impact.

 

[Jason K]

Unfortunately, optometry doesn't attract entrepreneurs like it used to. Most of the students today are looking for a "good job", not self employment. And I think graduating with $200k in student debt is a huge barrier to practice ownership.

I completely agree that in "golden era" of optometry, OD grads were far more entrepreneurial than they are today, but I don't think it was an inherent difference in their personalities that made the difference. People who pursue the health professions, at least in my experience, tend not to be the "ultra-business" types. They're more moderate risk-takers from a financial perspective. Setting up a clinical practice business, whether it was medical, dental, or whatever, certainly involved risk back then, but from what I'm told, it was safer than starting a restaurant, bakery, or some other type of business.

I was in diapers in the late 70s, so I certainly can't speak from 1st hand knowledge, but I would think that although the actions of the earlier grads are far different from those of today, it's more a result of the world around them than it is their personal makeup. I think the risk of entry into private practice ownership has risen dramatically for a number of reasons, but OD grads have not been willing to meet that increased risk. Unfortunately, I don't think that is going to change and that's where my fundamental disagreement with KHE stands. The future that I see is much more commercial and much less private practice. I could be totally wrong on that prediction and I really hope I am, but I think that's going to be the inevitable result of what's been happening and what will continue to happen in the future.

 

[319671]

I completely agree that in "golden era" of optometry, OD grads were far more entrepreneurial than they are today, but I don't think it was an inherent difference in their personalities that made the difference. People who pursue the health professions, at least in my experience, tend not to be the "ultra-business" types. They're more moderate risk-takers from a financial perspective. Setting up a clinical practice business, whether it was medical, dental, or whatever, certainly involved risk back then, but from what I'm told, it was safer than starting a restaurant, bakery, or some other type of business.

I was in diapers in the late 70s, so I certainly can't speak from 1st hand knowledge, but I would think that although the actions of the earlier grads are far different from those of today, it's more a result of the world around them than it is their personal makeup. I think the risk of entry into private practice ownership has risen dramatically for a number of reasons, but OD grads have not been willing to meet that increased risk. Unfortunately, I don't think that is going to change and that's where my fundamental disagreement with KHE stands. The future that I see is much more commercial and much less private practice. I could be totally wrong on that prediction and I really hope I am, but I think that's going to be the inevitable result of what's been happening and what will continue to happen in the future.

I love how this is in the pre-opt section but is being discussed by 3 ODs.

 

[KHE]

I love how this is in the pre-opt section but is being discussed by 3 ODs.

Well, it's where the thread is and most of it is stuff you all should be aware of. Would you like me to move it to the "optometry" forum?

 

[KHE]

Again, no one on here is arguing against this point. I certainly haven’t. It’s irrelevant, though. It just doesn’t matter. The fact is, most of the thousands who enter will, to use your words and mine, “have a meager future in optometry.” Most of them will not do what you say they CAN do. They will do what they WILL do. That might not be ideal, but it’s reality.

Again, that is a problem of the individual, not the profession. If most CAN but most WON'T, how is that somehow optometry's fault?

Bzzzzzzzz! Wrongo, my friend! I entered optometry school with the full intention of owning. I had full intention of buying into an office and I was prepared to part with the money. What I lacked was an understanding of the realities of that risk level given the current state of the profession. The entire reason I went into optometry was to have my own business and be my own boss. I had no intention of working for anyone else for more than a brief period after graduation. I can assure you, if the profession were as it was 20 years ago, I would have no problem laying out the cash. Apparently, a lot of others felt the same way because that’s when they did it. They don’t do it today. Why is that? Did the type of applicant change or did the financial climate and the profession change to the extent that people are no longer comfortable assuming such risk?

Jason, as sure as I have a crack in my ass, if you truly had all these attributes you say you have you would have found a way to make it happen. Instead, you've done what hundreds before you have done. You've come up with thousands of different reasons to NOT do it. You have family responsibilities. You can't move from your limited geographic area. You have too much debt. Commercial will kill optometry. The internet will kill optometry. VSP will kill optometry. There's too much oversupply. It's too risky. Everything will only get worse.

So instead you've decided to throw yourself on the martyr's pyre to try to save all these poor unsuspecting pre-optometry students. Well that's fine and dandy and maybe someday we'll pin a medal of honor on you but ranting on the net isn't going to help get you where you want to go.

You can't honestly believe this will happen, at least not in the foreseeable future. Has commercial pharmacy cannibalized itself? Walmart, Sam's, JCpenny, AB, etc, they're here to stay. They might change shape and pass each other around under different names, but they're not going anywhere.

YES commercial pharmacy has canabalized itself. When there's a Walgreens and a CVS and a Rite Aid on every corner and you've got the same demand, you're just going to take the same demand and spread it over a larger area. They've closed down two commercial pharmacies in my town alone FOR THAT EXACT reason.

Yes commerical optometry is here to stay but walk into any mall and you'll see 5 different commercial practices nearly all of which are limping along. You might have one that's the obvious "front runner" whether it's Lenscrafters or Eyemasters or whatever but then you'll have a Sears, JCPenny, Cohens, and probably one or two others where there's an OD sitting around waiting for a few walk ins to straggle on by.

This surprises me to have come from you. I know you know more than this. Commercial optometry is affecting the profession well beyond simple competition for patients. Its effects run deep into the profession on every level and they affect everyone, not just other commercial practitioners.

I can assure you that what goes on at Sears optical or Americas best has next to no bearing on my practice any more than what goes on at the Motel 6 affects the Ritz Carlton.

 

[Eyes Only]

I love how this is in the pre-opt section but is being discussed by 3 ODs.

Go back and start a thread and beat the GPA / OAT topic to death if that makes you feel better.

Do you think you own this forum?

Don't read this if it bothers you this much!!!

Keep your head in the sand if it makes you feel better.

 

[Jason K]

Again, that is a problem of the individual, not the profession. If most CAN but most WON'T, how is that somehow optometry's fault?

I'm not saying it's anyone's "fault." I'm asking you "What's your name?" and you're answering "The sky is blue." You still haven't answered my question. I'm not assigning blame to the profession, I'm stating a fact. Optometry can't support more entries. It just can't. So again;

Question: What good is it going to do to invite more and more people into a profession that can't support them?

Question: How will the profession be better when we have 65,000 ODs in practice than the current 35,000?

Jason, as sure as I have a crack in my ass, if you truly had all these attributes you say you have you would have found a way to make it happen. Instead, you've done what hundreds before you have done. You've come up with thousands of different reasons to NOT do it. You have family responsibilities. You can't move from your limited geographic area. You have too much debt. Commercial will kill optometry. The internet will kill optometry. VSP will kill optometry. There's too much oversupply. It's too risky. Everything will only get worse.

And as sure as I have plenty of hair on mine, I wouldn't have taken out loans totaling nearly 200K if I didn't have any desire to assume risk. That act alone was a demonstration of risk acceptance and quite a big one, I might add. I believed that the profession I chose would be able to justify the added risk of ownership after graduation, I was wrong on that. If the risk were reasonable, I'd be more than willing to find a way to make it happen. If it's not reasonable, I won't. I'm clearly not alone in that sentiment so trying to make it sound like I'm some sort of "unusual" anomaly or that it's some personality flaw shared by all newer ODs these days is pretty pointless. The other thousands of more recent graduates have said the same thing. Saying "It's not the profession's fault, it's the applicants' fault" is irrelevant, in my opinion. Who cares who's fault it is? What's going to be the result? That's what matters. So, the two above questions are there to answer. Personally, I don't think it's anyone's fault. It's just what it is. People are more "gun shy" with the idea of borrowing tremendous sums of money on top of already borrowed tremendous sums of money when the economy is unstable and the profession is even more unstable. It's not unreasonable to understand why they would "think that way." Simply telling people to "hike up their panties" and take on the risk is pretty convenient when you're on the other side of the fence.

So instead you've decided to throw yourself on the martyr's pyre to try to save all these poor unsuspecting pre-optometry students. Well that's fine and dandy and maybe someday we'll pin a medal of honor on you but ranting on the net isn't going to help get you where you want to go.

I'm not ranting on the net to get myself anywhere. I have other ways of doing that and they're being done as we speak. At most, a few dozen people might read this thread and think twice about an OD. Most people on here have already made up their minds. I'm here because I feel almost obligated to inform applicants of what they're missing. They're not going to hear this stuff anywhere else, until after it's far too late. I'm here to tell the "me's" out there that optometry is not what it seems on the surface. That's a good thing, you don't want anymore "me's" in optometry anyway, right? If I had read this thread 10 years ago, I can assure you I'd be doing something else right now.

YES commercial pharmacy has canabalized itself. When there's a Walgreens and a CVS and a Rite Aid on every corner and you've got the same demand, you're just going to take the same demand and spread it over a larger area. They've closed down two commercial pharmacies in my town alone FOR THAT EXACT reason.

No it hasn't. C'mon dude, let's be real here. A couple of pharmacies in your town that, for whatever reason, aren't there anymore, is hardly a demonstration of pharmaceutical cannibalization. My point is, commercial pharmacy has overtaken the profession and it has done so irreversibly. Private pharmacies are almost nonexistent and things will stay that way. A couple of RiteAids shutting down doesn't change that fact. We're on the same path in optometry and it will be thanks to the ridiculous over-supply problem that no one is willing to seriously address. We absolutely would NOT have a commercial cancer in optometry if it were not for the over-supply issue. Feeding it by welcoming thousands more into the profession is going to grow that cancer. I don't care if anyone CAN make it. That is completely irrelevant to the big picture. The fact is, if we continue to bring in thousands more ODs, a few of them might be successful, but the rest of them will further cripple an already hurting profession. So,

Question: How do you address that issue? That's what actually matters.

Yes commerical optometry is here to stay but walk into any mall and you'll see 5 different commercial practices nearly all of which are limping along. You might have one that's the obvious "front runner" whether it's Lenscrafters or Eyemasters or whatever but then you'll have a Sears, JCPenny, Cohens, and probably one or two others where there's an OD sitting around waiting for a few walk ins to straggle on by.

There's competition in and among commercial entities, and yes, some do better than others, but the overall result on the profession is the same. It brings everyone down on many levels. It's growing out of control and I believe it will eventually take over the profession just like pharmacy has been overtaken. A lot of other ODs share that outlook so it's not like I'm on here speaking some sort of crazy Nostradamus stuff.

I can assure you that what goes on at Sears optical or Americas best has next to no bearing on my practice any more than what goes on at the Motel 6 affects the Ritz Carlton.

You're dead wrong on that, my friend. You may think it doesn't affect you, but you're wrong. They may not be stealing your patients, but you're affected like anyone else. And any new grad who thinks that the commercial explosion won't affect them is also dead wrong.

Look, I don't disagree with you that planning ahead is important, but that goes without saying for any profession. Expecting to walk out of school and be handed a 6 figure job without any input beyond academics and clinical work is incredibly foolish (unless you're willing to sell your soul to AB for 105K and 64+ refractions per day). But if you're planning ahead without a full understanding of what it is that you're planning for, you're doomed. If you're planning ahead for a profession that really doesn't need and can't support you, you're in for a real treat when you get out. The absolute, inarguable fact is, optometry doesn't need one single additional OD right now. We don't need any more and yet we're going to get thousands more every year - year after year. So, again, what good is that going to do the profession? How is it a good thing to invite in thousands more people when those very people will further hurt the field they're entering? Those are the questions that matter, not who to whose fault it is.

 

[319671]

Go back and start a thread and beat the GPA / OAT topic to death if that makes you feel better.

Do you think you own this forum?

Don't read this if it bothers you this much!!!

Keep your head in the sand if it makes you feel better.

No, I'm OCD, I like things to be where they are meant to be. There's an Optometry Section.

 

[Jason K]

No, I'm OCD, I like things to be where they are meant to be. There's an Optometry Section.

You won't realize how appropriately placed this thread was until you're already in the profession.

 

[Eyes Only]

No, I'm OCD, I like things to be where they are meant to be. There's an Optometry Section.

So preoptometry is not about optometry?

Use your OCD to learn more about the profession.

 

[319671]

So preoptometry is not about optometry?

Use your OCD to learn more about the profession.

Generally, one would assume that preopt and opt can be combined, but when there are specific sections, why combine?

 

[Eyes Only]

Generally, one would assume that preopt and opt can be combined, but when there are specific sections, why combine?

Ok, you're right let's get this thread back on track and tell me:


...3 recent developments in optometry
...the top 5 researchers in optometry
...how many sugar cubes would fill this building?

 

[319671]

Ok, you're right let's get this thread back on track and tell me:


...3 recent developments in optometry
...the top 5 researchers in optometry
...how many sugar cubes would fill this building?

I think you already know the answer to that....you're God right? I'm amazed you couldn't use your all-knowing psychic powers to read my mind! I expected more of you....

 

[KHE]

A few people requested I move this thread so I've obliged.

 

[Shnurek]

There's a lot of complaining about "having to move somewhere no one else wants to go." Well, it seems to me that far too many optometry school graduates expect to live in New York City, the Bay Area, or Southern California and every other place "just sucks and is in the middle of nowhere."

Well....if you're limited to those three geographic areas then yes, you are probably going to have a harder time than most however that is no different than any other field. Wander over to the ophthalmology forum and listen to residents and fellows bemoaning the starting salaries of $125,000 for an ophthalmic surgeon in NYC or San Francisco.

This is some of the best advice to incoming students to the health professions. ALL health professions are saturated in these metropolitan areas.

It is not exactly common sense because most people expect there to be more jobs in cities.

There is a reason Optometrists can do surgery in Oklahoma but in New York they cannot even prescribe oral medications. I don't care about New York. You guys can have it, the traffic, the noise, the a-hole people and don't forget taxes NYC has a lot of ignorant type-A people. They will live like rats in an apartment just to say they live in New York.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Would an oversupply of ODs be any good for the customers? Since it gives customers more options and increases competition giving ODs the incentive to out-compete other ODs?

 

[KHE]

I'm not saying it's anyone's "fault." I'm asking you "What's your name?" and you're answering "The sky is blue." You still haven't answered my question. I'm not assigning blame to the profession, I'm stating a fact. Optometry can't support more entries. It just can't. So again;

Question: What good is it going to do to invite more and more people into a profession that can't support them?

Question: How will the profession be better when we have 65,000 ODs in practice than the current 35,000?

Jason, I HAVE answered these questions.....but here we go again:

1) It does no good to invite more into the profession. The point I'm making is that I strongly believe that there is still and will still be ample opportunities for graduates, yes even MOST graduates to realize the career they dream of if they simply do things the right way.

2) The profession will not be better. That's why I'm saying that it's up to people who are entering this profession to think about what they want to do so they can make it happen. You always say you don't care about what happens in other professions. I'm saying that graduates shouldn't worry about what's happening to other graduates. Do something for yourself!

I'm clearly not alone in that sentiment so trying to make it sound like I'm some sort of "unusual" anomaly or that it's some personality flaw shared by all newer ODs these days is pretty pointless. The other thousands of more recent graduates have said the same thing.

I never said you were an anomaly in this regard. I'm saying your wrong but you've convinced yourself that you're not so just carry on doing whatever it is your doing till you can extricate yourself from this horrible profession.

It's just what it is. People are more "gun shy" with the idea of borrowing tremendous sums of money on top of already borrowed tremendous sums of money when the economy is unstable and the profession is even more unstable. It's not unreasonable to understand why they would "think that way." Simply telling people to "hike up their panties" and take on the risk is pretty convenient when you're on the other side of the fence.

Jason,

I came out of school one month before the terrorist attacks. The clinic I worked at went bankrupt. My wife was laid off. Then the whole anthrax thing started. No one knew if the world was going to end or not. The economy tanked. Somehow we muddled through.

I bought my practice at the height of the real estate crash. The economy is worse now than at any time in my career. Somehow the practice is not only surviving but GROWING. We're not just "hanging on." We are GROWING. My wife and I between the two of us had hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt. I can assure you that no one had it "worse" than us.

I'm not ranting on the net to get myself anywhere. I have other ways of doing that and they're being done as we speak. At most, a few dozen people might read this thread and think twice about an OD. Most people on here have already made up their minds. I'm here because I feel almost obligated to inform applicants of what they're missing. They're not going to hear this stuff anywhere else, until after it's far too late. I'm here to tell the "me's" out there that optometry is not what it seems on the surface. That's a good thing, you don't want anymore "me's" in optometry anyway, right? If I had read this thread 10 years ago, I can assure you I'd be doing something else right now.

How about this Jason.....why don't you write up a manifesto, or an encyclical or whatever you want to call it. Write up an article containing an argument against pursuing optometry as a career. Please cite a few articles. Don't just say "it's a fact that hundreds of graduates will fail." If you can produce something respectable, I will sticky it right at the top of the pre-optometry forum and it will be right there for every single person to see and it will be searchable on google too.

My point is, commercial pharmacy has overtaken the profession and it has done so irreversibly. Private pharmacies are almost nonexistent and things will stay that way. A couple of RiteAids shutting down doesn't change that fact. We're on the same path in optometry and it will be thanks to the ridiculous over-supply problem that no one is willing to seriously address.

There are hundreds of reasons why I disagree with that but there's no reason trying to convince you. You have made up your mind.

We absolutely would NOT have a commercial cancer in optometry if it were not for the over-supply issue. Feeding it by welcoming thousands more into the profession is going to grow that cancer. I don't care if anyone CAN make it. That is completely irrelevant to the big picture.

Commercial optometry has been around for at least 40 years. Again, the fact that a Walmart opens on every single corner matters little. They are all competing for the same group of "walmart" patients. So let them. If you have a Ritz Carlton and a Motel 6 and all of a sudden 50 more Motel 6s open up, do you really think that affects the Ritz Carlton?

There's competition in and among commercial entities, and yes, some do better than others, but the overall result on the profession is the same. It brings everyone down on many levels.

It only brings down the other commercial practices. I guess it does bring down some private practices who try to compete with the commercialists with BOGOs and $39 eye exams and $49 glasses but that's their problem. They are making that mistake even trying to compete for that marketplace.

You're dead wrong on that, my friend. You may think it doesn't affect you, but you're wrong. They may not be stealing your patients, but you're affected like anyone else. And any new grad who thinks that the commercial explosion won't affect them is also dead wrong.

lmao. Ok Jason.....against my better judgement I'll ask. How am I affected by commercial optometry, especially if they're not stealing my patients?

 

[KHE]

Would an oversupply of ODs be any good for the customers? Since it gives customers more options and increases competition giving ODs the incentive to out-compete other ODs?

In theory, on some level the answer is yes. That's what capitalism is, isn't it?

But when you're talking about trained professionals, having an oversupply leads to situations where you might end up with lower prices for things like exams, but you have a situation where the individual practitioners aren't seeing enough cases to be effective at their jobs and can't carry out the assignment they've been charged with, caring for the visual health and welfare of the populace.

Hypothetically, let's say that for an optometrist to remain proficient at their job, they need to see 2000 patients a year. (I have no idea what the number is. I just threw that out.) And the cost of an eye exam is $100.

So you double the supply of providers and the cost of an exam goes down to $50. Great for consumers, right? But now each provider is seeing 1000 patients and the public health is potentially compromised.

That's no good.

 

[Jason K]

Commercial optometry has been around for at least 40 years. Again, the fact that a Walmart opens on every single corner matters little. They are all competing for the same group of "walmart" patients. So let them. If you have a Ritz Carlton and a Motel 6 and all of a sudden 50 more Motel 6s open up, do you really think that affects the Ritz Carlton?

lmao. Ok Jason.....against my better judgement I'll ask. How am I affected by commercial optometry, especially if they're not stealing my patients?

The problem with the hotel analogy is that prices at the Ritz Carlton are not influenced by "hotel insurance." If Motel 6 decides to start giving away $5.00 hotel rooms so that you'll come in and buy their Motel 6 lamps and towels, there's no hotel insurance that then says:

"Hey, a night's stay in a hotel is worth a lot less now, look at what Motel 6 is doing, they're giving it away for $5.00! Let's lower the amount of money we'll pay for any hotel room, whether it's at the Ritz or anywhere else."

Yes, the people who stay at the Ritz are not the same people who stay at Motel 6, just like your patients are not the same ones who cruise into the local Walmart on a motorized shopping cart. The difference is, Motel 6's actions don't affect the market price for the Ritz's services. Unfortunately, Walmart and other commercial entities' actions DO affect the going rate for optometric services and in my opinion, that is the primary reason our services are so incredibly undervalued as a profession. If private practice optometry, instead of commercial, were setting the value of optometric services as is the case for dentistry, podiatry, and medicine, I can assure you our reimbursements from vision plans would not be the abysmal amount that they are. A very small part of me can understand why OMDs view us as a thorn in their side, we've screwed them over along with ourselves since they bill for some of the same things we do. If you can tell me that you don't accept a single vision or medical plan and see only cash patients whom you charge whatever you think is reasonable, then maybe I'd accept your claim that you're practice is totally and completely unaffected by the commercial cancer that we are suffering from.

Jason, I HAVE answered these questions.....but here we go again:

It does no good to invite more into the profession. The point I'm making is that I strongly believe that there is still and will still be ample opportunities for graduates, yes even MOST graduates to realize the career they dream of if they simply do things the right way.

Ok, so do you actually believe that that "if" will turn out the way you hope? Do you actually believe that most entries today and tomorrow will, in fact, go out and set up practices or buy existing ones? If you truly believe that, then I can understand your stance. But if you don't believe that, and based on the quote below, I don't think you do, then you have to agree that there will be a lot more "fallout" than there will be benefit to welcoming in so many more additions. Ignoring the consequences of those additions and focusing only on the few who will satisfy your "if" statement, seems very dangerous to the future of the profession.

I agree that the future is pretty meager for most who enter it but I submit that it is largely because of the type of applicants that are being admitted....

2) The profession will not be better. That's why I'm saying that it's up to people who are entering this profession to think about what they want to do so they can make it happen. You always say you don't care about what happens in other professions. I'm saying that graduates shouldn't worry about what's happening to other graduates. Do something for yourself!

Your stance on ODWire seems to be one that supports enrollment cuts to reduce over-supply, reduction in commercial optometry's presence, strengthening of private practice, and promotion of the profession in general. I fail to understand why on SDN, your stance seems to be to welcome all who would want to enter as long as they "have a plan." Having a plan is great, but it's not going to change the realities of the numbers I've proposed. Most people on here confuse a "plan" with a well thought-out "dream." Those two things are not the same, but those people will not discover that until they've already bought a very expensive OD. If you think that somehow, the applicant pool is going to miraculously change, and that 80% of those entering the profession are going to get their OD, open cold or buy out an office, and grow or maintain the PP side of optometry, I'm sorry, but you're dreaming. You're theoretical ideas of what could happen won't help when the actual numbers crank through the system and the whole profession suffers further because of them. But, again, based on your quote above, I don't think you disagree with me that most will not succeed. That those failures will be due to the entry of the wrong type of applicants, to me, seems irrelevant.

Jason,

I came out of school one month before the terrorist attacks. The clinic I worked at went bankrupt. My wife was laid off. Then the whole anthrax thing started. No one knew if the world was going to end or not. The economy tanked. Somehow we muddled through.

I bought my practice at the height of the real estate crash. The economy is worse now than at any time in my career. Somehow the practice is not only surviving but GROWING. We're not just "hanging on." We are GROWING. My wife and I between the two of us had hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt. I can assure you that no one had it "worse" than us.

Again, you're projecting your situation out on the masses of OD hopefuls. In my opinion, and I have good reason to take this stand, few of them will get to where you are for a variety of reasons. I've quoted you on statements that support that claim. If the ones who don't were not going to be sunk with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and if they were not going to further demolish the profession, I wouldn't be on here. Unfortunately, you're using your particular end point to encourage people to enter into optometry. It's like MJ talking to a bunch of HS basketball players and telling them to lay it all out and go for the NBA. Yes, anyone of them CAN make it into NBA, but most of them won't. Taking the attitude of "Well, whatever, all the rest of those failures don't affect me so it ain't my problem." is incredibly short-sighted in my opinion and it's also part of the reason that optometry is drowning itself with so many extra ODs; no one has been willing to step up and actually DO something about all the extra bodies streaming into our profession.

Your speaking to a room full of 10,000 prospective ODs and saying "Hey, any one of you CAN make it in optometry. If you all try, it will further screw over the entire profession, but you know what, I don't care because my practice is doing well! Everyone come on in!"

Over the next 20 years, if everything continues as is, we'll welcome 20,000 or more new ODs to add to the 35,000 or so in practice today, about 2,000 per year, maybe more. Of those 2,000, we might get one or two per class, maybe 20 per year, who actually do what you say they can do. Now, if we could somehow limit the entries to those who actually would do what you're saying is possible, I'd go as far as to say that would be a good thing for optometry. Those people would actually grow the dying side of the profession, the private practice side. You're speaking to those people and completely disregarding the negative effects of the other 1980. I'm speaking to those 1980 people per year who are chasing a dream that will not happen. Collectively, they'll make up a mass of about 19,800 ODs who will further sink this profession. That's dead weight that the profession simply cannot tolerate. What good does it do to welcome in a couple of hundred success stories when the other 19,000ish non-success stories will drag the profession into a bottomless pit? So, I'd say, in this case, the needs of my "many" definitely outweigh the needs of your "few."

What would benefit the profession right now would be to stop welcoming new additions. To spread out the existing numbers we have. Create incentives to draw ODs to the limited numbers of areas in the US that actually need ODs. Increase the value of the existing ODs by limiting the numbers of us that are out in practice. If we shut down all the OD programs tomorrow, it would take years for us to correct the over-supply issue. To invite in more applicants under those circumstances, to me, seems ludicrous. That's my main point with all of this. You seem to agree with me that the last thing this profession needs is more ODs so I continue to fail to understand why you are encouraging thousands to enter into it. Just because they can doesn't mean they should.

How about this Jason.....why don't you write up a manifesto, or an encyclical or whatever you want to call it. Write up an article containing an argument against pursuing optometry as a career. Please cite a few articles. Don't just say "it's a fact that hundreds of graduates will fail." If you can produce something respectable, I will sticky it right at the top of the pre-optometry forum and it will be right there for every single person to see and it will be searchable on google too.

I may just take you up on this, but you know as well as I do that there are no citable resources to make those claims for either side of the argument. All we can go on is trends within the profession. You, yourself agreed with me that the future of optometry will be "meager for most of those entering the profession today." To say that large numbers of entries will fail is hardly unfounded conjecture. There are many thousands out there today and the profession, as you have alluded to in your refute of imemily's earlier post, is hardly improving.

I guess we'll just have to wait for the next workforce study which won't be completed for another couple of years. I'm sure the results will come out as expected; the over-supply problem is much worse than was predicted with the last workforce study, blah, blah, blah. Then the AOA will look at the data, pile it in their basement underneath a mound of old, wet towels and dirty laundry, and they'll hire a guard to stand next to the only copy and say "Hey, get outta here, nothin' to see here, get away from this pile of crap, it's dangerous!" Over-supply?? What over-supply? I have no idea what you're talking about. Hey, anyone up for some more talk about Board Certification???.......anyone??.....anyone at all???

Look, we're getting to the point where the dead horse on the ground is starting to become unrecognizable. It's now a lump of hair and mammalian tissue that could be a horse, a zebra, a bison, or just a big fat guy with a ton of body hair. We could go back and forth on this issue for thousands of posts, and we're going to arrive at the same point we're at today. You are speaking to a few people and saying, "You're worth it, you can do it, come on into optometry because I've done great and you can too." I'm speaking to a different group. I'm speaking to the MUCH larger group of people, the group comprised of 35,000 existing ODs and the balance of all the ODs who are yet to come, the ones who will not satisfy your "if" statement. In my opinion, those people's needs outweigh the needs of the few you are speaking to. None of that is going to change.

 

[JAZZEYE]

jeez Jason you really did pick the wrong field you would've made a helluva lawyer...you just thrive on argument.

 

[Jason K]

jeez Jason you really did pick the wrong field you would've made a helluva lawyer...you just thrive on argument.

You've got one part of that statement DEAD on. As for the rest of it, I'm here responding to other people's posts so you could apply the same to everyone else. I actually said several posts ago that this thing is dragging on needlessly and is basically going nowhere, much like the careers of most ODs to come.

 

[Wilkesu12]

Jason you obviously have no life. You spend way to many hours on here trying to be part of every single thread you can. We all get it, you hate optometry. You wanted to go to med school but you changed your mind without looking what you were getting into. Now you take it out on everyone else. If you hate your job so much than move and make the changes instead of spending every waking second on here. You are fighting and arguing with 20 year olds congratulations. I can only pray for you that things will get better for you so you can find something better to do with your time. There is an oversupply problem yes and new schools shouldn't have opened, we all get it. Thanks for posting it 9000 times. It would be beneficial to everyone if you would just leave.

 

[Jason K]

Jason you obviously have no life. You spend way to many hours on here trying to be part of every single thread you can. We all get it, you hate optometry. You wanted to go to med school but you changed your mind without looking what you were getting into. Now you take it out on everyone else. If you hate your job so much than move and make the changes instead of spending every waking second on here. You are fighting and arguing with 20 year olds congratulations. I can only pray for you that things will get better for you so you can find something better to do with your time. There is an oversupply problem yes and new schools shouldn't have opened, we all get it. Thanks for posting it 9000 times. It would be beneficial to everyone if you would just leave.

This post is hilarious to me. Every single thread I can? What are you talking about? 90% of my posts have been on three threads. And what is this with "You wanted to go to med school?" Where on Earth did you get that from? If you're going to come on here and stir up trouble, at least have your facts straight. If I didn't see that this account was created in march, I'd think you were one of the two false-account creators who frequent these threads. Netmag is the one, another one of you "hopefuls" is the other.

The fire some of you guys have is amusing to me. It may come in handy for you if you channel it the right way. More than likely, however, you'll be one of the many thousands of ODs who came before you and will come after you who start out thinking "woohoooooooo - go optometry!!!".....and then when they arrive at their destination it's.... "crap.....optometry." With three whole posts, maybe you need to spend some more time on here. You might learn something.

 

[Eyes Only]

Jason you obviously have no life. You spend way to many hours on here trying to be part of every single thread you can. We all get it, you hate optometry. You wanted to go to med school but you changed your mind without looking what you were getting into. Now you take it out on everyone else. If you hate your job so much than move and make the changes instead of spending every waking second on here. You are fighting and arguing with 20 year olds congratulations. I can only pray for you that things will get better for you so you can find something better to do with your time. There is an oversupply problem yes and new schools shouldn't have opened, we all get it. Thanks for posting it 9000 times. It would be beneficial to everyone if you would just leave.

You preopts were whining when we were talking about optometry on the preoptometry forums, so should we complain when you follow the thread over here?

Shouldn't you be somewhere discussing interview strategies and OAT scores and ignoring what practicing ODs have to say about the profession?

 

[Wilkesu12]

15 different threads in 20 days actually. And like I said there is an oversupply problem and there shouldn't be new schools. So I am not "whoo hoo optometry" I understand it is flawed, partially, definitely not fully, thanks to you. But I don't think I needed to hear it 240 times in about 2 months.

 

[Jason K]

15 different threads in 20 days actually. And like I said there is an oversupply problem and there shouldn't be new schools. So I am not "whoo hoo optometry" I understand it is flawed, partially, definitely not fully, thanks to you. But I don't think I needed to hear it 240 times in about 2 months.

You might want to run those numbers again there, chief. Let's have a look at Jason K's posting history for the past 20 days, shall we?

Total threads: 11 (not 15...try to work on the counting thing before you start optometry school, there's a lot of numbers.)
Total posts 123
Top 3 posted threads (total): 94
Top 3 posted as a percentage of total negative posts: 94/109 = 86.2% (oddly close to 90%)
Number of threads posted in without any negativity, only constructive advice:3/11 = 27%
Number of posts without any negativity whatsoever: 14/123 = 11.3%

So, as I said, I've made nearly all of my posts on three threads, two of which are obviously about over-supply and a third about "expectations of optometry." If what I have to say gives you a sore tummy, get some warm milk from mom and then go somewhere else.

 

[JAZZEYE]

You preopts were whining when we were talking about optometry on the preoptometry forums, so should we complain when you follow the thread over here?

Shouldn't you be somewhere discussing interview strategies and OAT scores and ignoring what practicing ODs have to say about the profession?

I haven't read any contribution of substance yet from you ..just rah rah ya ya optometry is bad ..you students don't know anything about the profession..what the hell.. because you graduated and are not happy that qualifies your opinion..you might just be another loser..how do we know..let me see if you have anything really informative and less insulting 1 or 2 liners to say and then maybe you can be taken a little more seriously.

 

[Wilkesu12]

Lol you love to put words in my mouth. I never said it gave me "a sour tummy" In the two posts I made I aknowledged the problems. I am not sick about hearing the problems, just sick of you. It would be nice to come on to this website just one day without having to read something from you. But again, you will probably take this as a "whoo hoo" optometry post lol, whatever. Nicee stats by the way, I am glad you have so much time to do that, again seems like a lack of a life, get a hobby or something dude. Keep it up on here man, you are doing great. This profession is sinking from personalities like you.