RE: Justification for New Optometry Programs

[Eyes Only]

The schools justify creation of new programs by determining that there will be an aging population.
"Employment of optometrists is expected to grow much faster than the average for all occupations through 2018, in response to the vision care needs of a growing and aging population. Excellent job opportunities are expected. " from BLS.

The more new ODs there are, the more likely it is the patient will visit another OD/newer OD.

You can't get an associate to work for you because he/she will work @ corporate or with an optician due to larger pay. Historically, pp pay has always been less than corporate pay.

The more ODs there are, the higher likelihood that they would start their own practice. This would decrease the value of your practice, in the long run, from a buyers perspective. But yes I agree that you would be able to obtain cheap ODs, but would anyone realistically be willing to work for you when corporate offers better pay?

I don't really know what to say about BLS, but it is far more credible than an anonymous poster. Don't you think!?

The BLS information is based only on demographics (the aging population) not on any sound business principles. My experience, which is limited to 25 years of practice, is that as people age they are more likely to end up in the care of an OMD, not an OD. We can diagnose age related problems, but we can't treat a lot of them (cataracts, diabetic retinopathy, hypertensive retinopathy, to name a few). The other thing that no one seems to consider is that all of our automated equipment has made us a lot more efficient than we used to be. Between automation and delegation we can manage many more patients a day than when I started out. OMDs are also more efficient and can handle greater patient loads.

Also OMD reimbursements from Medicare are lower than in the past, so they need to see more patients. One of the government's plans for reducing the deficit is to reduce Medicare reimbursements by 30% or so. This would make it less lucrative to see older patients, and require more volume for the same revenues.

One of the concerns that is regularly expressed here, which I agree with, is that the average debt level at graduation will keep people from starting their own practices. I made significant sacrifices to start a practice and my debt was insignificant compared to what young ODs have today.

I think current information suggests that most new ODs end up in commercial practice. VSP has data that says most young ODs would prefer to be in their own practice. So it doesn't seem like a stretch to assume that if you don't achieve your ideal practice environment, you may not be happy with your choice of career.

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[KHE]

KHE, we just look at things differently. It's understandable, you've done very well and you'd like to see others follow with the same success. I get that. But you're looking at it for what theoretically could happen for a small number of people. I'm looking at it for what practically will happen to everyone else.

The reason that "will happen" is because optometry schools admit too many losers and small time thinkers.

Whether it’s optimal or not, what will almost certainly happen is this.... Thousands will try and a only a few will succeed. That’s what all of this boils down to.

I believe that the success rate will be much higher than a "few out of thousands." But again....if you want to limit yourself to New York City, San Francisco or Los Angeles then yes....you are going to have to work harder to have the successful career you dream of.

So, to draw from another thread.....Don’t the needs of many outweigh the needs of a few?"

I have no idea what that means in the context of this particular thread.

 

[Tippytoe]

With less ODs, YOU personally have more patients to serve, which would give you a greater chance to increase revenue/practice full scope optometry, get on medical panels etc etc.

AOA/WALMART/LC are NOT the ones pumping out new graduates. That would be illegal I believe, unless there is something going on behind the curtains. I am not sure why new schools are opening? Maybe the government projected an under supply or more demand of ODs relative to the growing population.

We are talking about the vast oversupply that will be created in the next 5-10 years with all the new schools coming on-line pumping out fresh-faced ODs. As I said, I will be selling my practice at this time so I really stand to suffer little by the increased competition. I've already seen a 40% increase in ODs during my 12 years in my current location. And this is without the new schools.

But either way, I am not affected.

Good try though. Feel free to try again.

 

[Jason K]

The reason that "will happen" is because optometry schools admit too many losers and small time thinkers.

No argument from me on this point, but it's wishful thinking to hope that schools will restrict their admissions to those with "the right stuff." They're going to let in anyone with a bachelor's degree and enough cash.

I believe that the success rate will be much higher than a "few out of thousands." But again....if you want to limit yourself to New York City, San Francisco or Los Angeles then yes....you are going to have to work harder to have the successful career you dream of.

Ok, what if it's actually 10x what I stated?: "a few out of hundreds." Is that much better? The problems and future disappointments of those entering the profession now, in my opinion, will not be limited to those who wish to leave populated areas.

I have no idea what that means in the context of this particular thread.

Thousands (....and thousands) of "extra" people will be flooding into the profession in the next 5 years and beyond and we'll be at 60,000 or more ODs in the not-too-distant future. What I mean is, out of those thousands, there will be many more disappointments than successes. Whether it's 3 out of 1000 or 3 out 100 doesn't matter, what matters is that no matter what, those thousands of extra entries will cripple optometry even further. That a small portion of those thousands will have a smile on their face seems like a waste for everyone else. So, in my opinion, the needs of the 35,000 practicing ODs currently in the US should outweigh the needs of a few future potential successes to come down the road. The price for those success stories is just too high for everyone else.

If the new entries into optometry were limited to those who would be successful, then we'd actually have a good thing on our hands, theoretically. But that's not going to happen. What will happen is this: We're going to let tens of thousands in and we'll get a resultant small number of successes - in doing so, sinking optometry much further. That's what I meant.

 

[Kevin L]

I made an account just to post this:

I love your signature, Jason K. You speak the truth of the optometry profession. Let's just say I'm one of the lucky ones because I was convinced by your posts as well as others that optometry school wasn't the safe option for me before I was hooked onto the passion of getting into optometry school. You and others led me to perform my own research on the optometry job market. I have interviewed at PCO as well as others (for this cycle) and the interviewers (not from PCO) actually had the nerve to lie straight to my face and say that optometry is high in demand and that there was a current shortage of optometrists. I only wish others would be convinced by your posts.

 

[KHE]

I made an account just to post this:

I love your signature, Jason K. You speak the truth of the optometry profession. Let's just say I'm one of the lucky ones because I was convinced by your posts as well as others that optometry school wasn't the safe option for me before I was hooked onto the passion of getting into optometry school. You and others led me to perform my own research on the optometry job market. I have interviewed at PCO as well as others (for this cycle) and the interviewers (not from PCO) actually had the nerve to lie straight to my face and say that optometry is high in demand and that there was a current shortage of optometrists. I only wish others would be convinced by your posts.

What profession or career have you chosen for yourself?

 

[Jason K]

I made an account just to post this:

I love your signature, Jason K. You speak the truth of the optometry profession. Let's just say I'm one of the lucky ones because I was convinced by your posts as well as others that optometry school wasn't the safe option for me before I was hooked onto the passion of getting into optometry school. You and others led me to perform my own research on the optometry job market. I have interviewed at PCO as well as others (for this cycle) and the interviewers (not from PCO) actually had the nerve to lie straight to my face and say that optometry is high in demand and that there was a current shortage of optometrists. I only wish others would be convinced by your posts.

Congrats! Now all you have to do is find out what direction you actually DO want to move in (as KHE was alluding to). Best of luck!

 

[imemily]

We are talking about the vast oversupply that will be created in the next 5-10 years with all the new schools coming on-line pumping out fresh-faced ODs. As I said, I will be selling my practice at this time so I really stand to suffer little by the increased competition. I've already seen a 40% increase in ODs during my 12 years in my current location. And this is without the new schools.

But either way, I am not affected.

Good try though. Feel free to try again.

Lol, online doctorate OD degrees, really? I think its fair to say that you are crazy.

Anyhow, I have proven why it would be better for practicing ODs if there were less graduates. Though, there are some good counterpoints. It can go either way.

 

[Jason K]

Lol, online doctorate OD degrees, really? I think its fair to say that you are crazy.

Oh, dear god....really? Did you honestly think he was referring to "online" OD programs? Wow.

 

[Blondiechick919]

Oh, dear god....really? Did you honestly think he was referring to "online" OD programs? Wow.

+1

 

[imemily]

Oh, dear god....really? Did you honestly think he was referring to "online" OD programs? Wow.

Online definitely refers to the internet to me personally, not sure why you are making a big deal out of it. Also, I don't really pay attention to posts made by trolls so maybe I tend to overlook a couple of things!

Oh yeah I know why; because there really isn't much to say after I proved why tippytoe/yourself would benefit from less graduates.

 

[Jason K]

Online definitely refers to the internet to me personally, not sure why you are making a big deal out of it.

He was saying that new programs are coming "on-line" as in they're "starting." He was not referring to online optometry programs. Let's please leave this point entirely; it makes my brain hurt.

......pressing on......

Oh yeah I know why; because there really isn't much to say after I proved why tippytoe/yourself would benefit from less graduates.

As individuals looking to hire an associate or sell their practice, owner ODs would potentially benefit from a tremendous excess of ODs in that regard. The profession as a whole, however, will suffer from the same excess. Overall, it will sink optometry.

 

[KHE]

Overall, it will sink optometry.

So then Jason, what is YOUR plan?

You've graduated 6 years ago. Clearly you're still a young man. What plans are you making for your exit?

 

[imemily]

His plans are to try to convince pre-optometry students to not pursue Optometry school

I mean, at least that's what is implied.

 

[Jason K]

So then Jason, what is YOUR plan?

You've graduated 6 years ago. Clearly you're still a young man. What plans are you making for your exit?

Good question. I'm looking into the possibility of taking over a business that's in my family. It's something I'm already pretty good at and I like it. I don't like it as much as I would probably enjoy the kind of optometry that I sought when I "signed up," but it's definitely a lot better than the kind that's out there right now. It's a pretty big commitment so I'm not just going to jump in and jump out. I'll need to make my mind up in the next year or so. Historically, it has done quite well as a business, but like any other, it's susceptible to economic trends. It's certainly not easy to dump so much time, effort, and money by the "side of the road," but if it comes to that, then so be it. I wouldn't be the first to abandon my OD and I most definitely won't be the last. Maybe I'll come back some day, like you, but I suspect that in 5 years or so, things will be even less appealing than they are now. I would love to think that I am completely wrong on that. I'd love to imagine that something drastic happens tomorrow, all the ODs in the US come together, form an organization that collects money from all ODs to use towards the selective boycott of vision plans one city and one plan at a time, schools start closing, commercial optometry starts to diminish because grads coming out of school start opening their own offices and/or buying someone else's instead of flooding into VisionWorks. That would all be fantastic, but I don't think any of that is going to happen....I could be totally wrong and I would love it if I were, but I don't think I am.

 

[Jason K]

His plans are to try to convince pre-optometry students to not pursue Optometry school

I mean, at least that's what is implied.

I don't know how explicitly I could say that I don't think an OD is a solid prospect these days as far as the health professions go. I'm not implying anything; I'm stating it.

 

[KHE]

I don't know how explicitly I could say that I don't think an OD is a solid prospect these days as far as the health professions go. I'm not implying anything; I'm stating it.

In your mind, what profession other than dentistry IS a solid prospect?

 

[Jason K]

In your mind, what profession other than dentistry IS a solid prospect?

I don’t have an answer to that question for the same reason that I won’t come out and say that optometry is a bad choice for absolutely everyone. We all have different preferences. If someone looks at optometry today and says, “I can live with that...” then I would tell that person to go for it. The problem is that most people looking at it don’t have a fair understanding of what they’re getting themselves into. They don’t know what we know and they can’t until it’s too late. That’s all I’m trying to do here is tell people that it’s not really what it seems. Other professions do a much better job than we do at airing out their dirty laundry. As a profession, we’re terrible at it.

What profession is better? That’s for each person to decide, not me. But when they do, they should do it based on a sound understanding of the current and likely future states of that profession. Most people entering optometry right now are not doing that. They’re entering it based on the optometry they “see” out there in successful private offices that were started in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. They’re reading garbage put out by private school, the AOA, the BLS, and meaningless online surveys.

As I’ve said before. It doesn’t make sense to move into a neighborhood that’s “fallen off” and say, well, all the rest of the homes on this street are way overpriced so I guess this one’s just as good as the rest. I’ll take it! No profession is perfect. No profession can guarantee success. But some are better than others at providing are reasonable opportunity at success. I believe optometry has fallen in position from being one of the best prospects to one that is far from it.

 

[KHE]

Which ones then? Which professions provide a "reasonable opportunity for success?

Not which ones would you pick. But what professions or careers provide this reasonable opportunity for success that you speak of?

And what in your mind is a reasonable opportunity for success?

 

[speyeder]

I don't know why some pre-optoms have so much animosity towards Jason and Tippytoe. You may not like or agree with their opinions, and that's okay. Provide a counter-argument then as to why optometry is still a good profession to enter to balance the argument a little. But attacking them on a personal level by calling them losers, unsuccessful, and wanna-be ODs is uncalled for and petty.

 

[Tippytoe]

Lol, online doctorate OD degrees, really? I think its fair to say that you are crazy.

Anyhow, I have proven why it would be better for practicing ODs if there were less graduates. Though, there are some good counterpoints. It can go either way.

Errrr.......I never said anything about 'on-line doctorate degrees'. I said schools will come on-line......meaning they are opening for business.

 

[Jason K]

Which ones then? Which professions provide a "reasonable opportunity for success?

Not which ones would you pick. But what professions or careers provide this reasonable opportunity for success that you speak of?

And what in your mind is a reasonable opportunity for success?

.....I'm on the used car lot and I a see a nice 4 door sedan, good paint, decent interior, it looks nice overall. Seems like whoever owned it took care of it, at least from the surface. Then I open the hood, I look down, and there's a little midget guy smiling and looking up at me. He's holding the radiator in place. There he is, just hanging out in the engine compartment saying "Don't mind me, dude... I'm just holding this radiator here, I come with the car so don't worry, it's all good, baby, thumbsup!" If I saw that, would it be wise for me to say; "Oh well, a lot of these other cars probably have some issues too, I guess I'll ignore the little person holding the engine together and take it anyway." Moreover, if I knew the little fella was in there, would it be right for me to just let some unsuspecting kid come up and buy it without lifting up the hood for him to take a look?

I've been asked your question many times before and my answer doesn't change. My answer is, "I don't have the answer to that question and that's not why I'm here." I can't answer that for other people and I don't care to. I am not on here telling people that optometry is a bad prospect and that "these other professions" are good ones for them. I'm not even here to tell people not to go to optometry school. I've said that plenty of times as well. I'm here to tell people that the "picture" of optometry that they have is not in line with reality. It just isn't. You know it, I know it, and just about every OD in practice knows it. Unfortunately, most every person applying to OD programs these days does not not know it, but they should. They deserve to know before they drop so much time, money, and effort into their chosen profession. They deserve to at least know what's coming, and right now, no one is really willing to put it out there. All they hear is the stuff that people who stand to profit from them, want them to hear.

As I've said before on several occasions. I'm not here telling anyone optometry school is a bad idea for absolutely everyone. Some people might look forward to a career in commercial optometry. For them, the future is going to be unlimited. I'm saying "Here's some info you guys probably will never hear from anyone until after you've already committed yourselves." "Here's some stuff that might cause you to think about whether or not optometry truly offers you what you're looking for in your professional future." What's a reasonable likelihood of success? I don't know. It's impossible to put a number on something so intangible. But right now, I can say with confidence that most people entering the field after graduation are very surprised by what their opportunities are (or aren't). Most of them had no idea that what's waiting for them after graduation is not a few PP associateships that pay well and offer benefits, it's a bunch of commercial PT jobs that pay poorly and have no benefits. Or, if they're one of the lucky ones, they'll get the coveted FT commercial job with benefits. That's the "golden calf" right now for many grads, a FT gig at Pearle Vision. It shouldn't be that way and the fact that it is that way, indicates a big problem.

I don't care what could possibly happen in a theoretical world where everything goes according to perfection. What matters is what actually is happening. What you've managed to do is great. If more grads could pull it off, that too would be great not only for them, but for the profession. But the reality of it is, for many reasons, times are not conducive to that actually happening.

I don't care if there's a million other fields that are bad prospects for many people as well. I'm not on the coal miners' forum or the auto workers' forum, I'm on the optometry forum. I really don't understand why, whenever the problems of optometry are brought to the surface, someone always counters with "Other professions have problems too..." To me, it's just not relevant.

 

[netmag]

Why is it the pre-optoms responsibility to have to justify their choice to these people? You do know that we're currently posting in a pre-optom forum, right? They're here to share their thoughts and experiences as they pursue a career. They're essentially being attacked on their own forum for their decision to choose this profession. And yes, certain people here are petty and immature in their responses. Before blindly defending people, you might want to peruse their posting history. If that doesn't show you the truth then perhaps you're simply not looking for the truth.

I don't know why some pre-optoms have so much animosity towards Jason and Tippytoe. You may not like or agree with their opinions, and that's okay. Provide a counter-argument then as to why optometry is still a good profession to enter to balance the argument a little. But attacking them on a personal level by calling them losers, unsuccessful, and wanna-be ODs is uncalled for and petty.

 

[netmag]

You're not supposed to ask that question as it treads too far into the realm of reality and logic based discussion.

Which ones then? Which professions provide a "reasonable opportunity for success?

Not which ones would you pick. But what professions or careers provide this reasonable opportunity for success that you speak of?

And what in your mind is a reasonable opportunity for success?

 

[Eyes Only]

Oh yeah I know why; because there really isn't much to say after I proved why tippytoe/yourself would benefit from less graduates.

Let's say for a moment that practicing ODs benefit by reducing the number of graduates...

How do new graduates benefit by increasing the number of graduates?

Do you understand that the more young ODs there are, the lower the starting salaries will be?

It's simple economics, supply and demand.

 

[Jason K]

You're not supposed to ask that question as it treads too far into the realm of reality and logic based discussion.

Wow, this post really made me laugh. Netmag, you are truly the last person(s) on this forum that should be criticizing another poster for not answering questions. That was truly entertaining.

 

[Jason K]

They're essentially being attacked on their own forum for their decision to choose this profession.

Ok, here we go, yet again. I'll admit, I used to get annoyed when you blew onto the scene, made some false inflammatory comment about me, and then vanished into thin air when I asked yo to back it up with some facts. Now, I just laugh a little inside. I would ask you to quote me and show me where I've attacked any pre-optometry student, even once, for being interested in optometry, but I won't. I won't get an answer from you so it's not worth the effort. Keep the lies comin' though, netmag! If you can't debate the points at hand, just don't debate at all. Making stuff up is not the answer.

And yes, certain people here are petty and immature in their responses. Before blindly defending people, you might want to peruse their posting history. If that doesn't show you the truth then perhaps you're simply not looking for the truth.

I thought you didn't read my posts? Like I've said before, I meet garbage with more of the same. Funny how it's always you and one other poster on here who meet with my more sarcastic side. Nobody else really does, just you two. Odd, don't you think?

 

[Eyes Only]

Wow, this post really made me laugh. Netmag, you are truly the last person(s) on this forum that should be criticizing another poster for not answering questions. That was truly entertaining.

Netmag...

No one is going to take you seriously until you reveal your status (preopt student, optometry student, optometrist) and quit running and hiding every time someone asks you a question.

Yes, this is a pre-optometry forum that is part of the optometry forums, so if you're not in the business, get a hobby and let us talk about the profession without you.

 

[319671]

Ok, here we go, yet again. I'll admit, I used to get annoyed when you blew onto the scene, made some false inflammatory comment about me, and then vanished into thin air when I asked yo to back it up with some facts. Now, I just laugh a little inside. I would ask you to quote me and show me where I've attacked any pre-optometry student, even once, for being interested in optometry, but I won't. I won't get an answer from you so it's not worth the effort. Keep the lies comin' though, netmag! If you can't debate the points at hand, just don't debate at all. Making stuff up is not the answer.



I thought you didn't read my posts? Like I've said before, I meet garbage with more of the same. Funny how it's always you and one other poster on here who meet with my more sarcastic side. Nobody else really does, just you two. Odd, don't you think?

We preopts arent saying for you not to have this discussion, we're saying to move to to the Optometry forum, not PREOPT forum. Or at least, thats what I'm sayin!

 

[Kevin L]

What profession or career have you chosen for yourself?

Probably start my own business. I felt like an idiot for already wasting money applying (application money) and interviewing at PCO (flight tickets) and other schools (for this cycle), but I would have been more of an idiot for not doing my own research and enrolling at an OD school and be in $200,000+ debt. My acceptance to PCO as well as other OD schools seems tempting, but I was able to overcome the temptation.

Congrats! Now all you have to do is find out what direction you actually DO want to move in (as KHE was alluding to). Best of luck!

Thanks. I'm leaning in starting my own business and computer programming (which I'm already somewhat good at).

Also is investing in gold a good idea?

 

[319671]

Probably start my own business. I felt like an idiot for already wasting money applying (application money) and interviewing at PCO (flight tickets) and other schools (for this cycle), but I would have been more of an idiot for not doing my own research and enrolling at an OD school and be in $200,000+ debt. My acceptance to PCO as well as other OD schools seems tempting, but I was able to overcome the temptation.



Thanks. I'm leaning in starting my own business and computer programming (which I'm already somewhat good at).

Also is investing in gold a good idea?

You already got into PCO this cycle?

 

[Kevin L]

You already got into PCO this cycle?

Yes, I did get accepted to PCO for this cycle, but I'm probably not going.

Do you know if investing in gold is a wise decision as of right now by any chance?

 

[319671]

Yes, I did get accepted to PCO for this cycle, but I'm probably not going.

Do you know if investing in gold is a wise decision as of right now by any chance?

When did you interview/stats?

Well I dont know personally, but my mom is really experience (over +25 years) and she votes against it.

 

[Jason K]

Netmag...

No one is going to take you seriously until you reveal your status (preopt student, optometry student, optometrist) and quit running and hiding every time someone asks you a question.

Well, he's clearly not going to answer so I guess I'll jump in here. He's a pharmacist. Apparently, he's "already established in his profession." He's actually had some constructive information when the topic turned to pharmacy on a few occasions, but most of the time he just blows in, makes some unfounded remarks, and disappears. As for what he is doing roaming the pre-optometry forums, I'll let him take that one on. I haven't the slightest idea.

 

[speyeder]

Why is it the pre-optoms responsibility to have to justify their choice to these people? You do know that we're currently posting in a pre-optom forum, right? They're here to share their thoughts and experiences as they pursue a career. They're essentially being attacked on their own forum for their decision to choose this profession. And yes, certain people here are petty and immature in their responses. Before blindly defending people, you might want to peruse their posting history. If that doesn't show you the truth then perhaps you're simply not looking for the truth.

They're not asking you to defend your choice to pursue optometry as a career. They're just offering their opinions on the current and future state of their profession. If you don't agree, then ignore them and move on.

 

[319671]

They're not asking you to defend your choice to pursue optometry as a career. They're just offering their opinions on the current and future state of their profession. If you don't agree, then ignore them and move on.

Why don't they ignore us and move on?

 

[imemily]

Let's say for a moment that practicing ODs benefit by reducing the number of graduates...

How do new graduates benefit by increasing the number of graduates?

Do you understand that the more young ODs there are, the lower the starting salaries will be?

It's simple economics, supply and demand.

You are kinda right about that (see below), but I was never relating the new graduates to each other. It has to do with the current ODs and the newer ODs, and how each would be effected. Though, after overlooking some of the posts, I do understand why current ODs want to solve the oversupply problem, but I still believe that implicitly ordering students to not pursue the profession, to cure this oversupply problem is not the best way.

The starting salaries will probably be lower with more graduates, but I highly doubt that salaries will drop by a large amount.

Historically, I don't think a doctorate profession has seen a a >10% drop in salary over a relatively short period of time, 20-25 years. Maybe chiropractors?

 

[imemily]

Why don't they ignore us and move on?

Personally, especially after being the authors of threads, I feel that these posters are telling us reasons to NOT pursue the profession, when we have already decided that this is what we would like to do.

It's not just one post, but usually every post has negative connotations in reference to Optometry, which can become upsetting.

Moreover, I sometimes question the credibility of these posters because, even though times are tough in the Optometric world, none of the ODs whom I have shadowed face the highly exaggerated realities of certain ODs who post here.

I do appreciate the information that is kept in secrecy by the AOA/schools, but, constantly posting negative sentiments about Optometry, which may be the realities of some new graduates, is IMO a bit insulting to the preoptometrists, optometrists and optometry students.

 

[319671]

Personally, especially after being the authors of threads, I feel that these posters are telling us reasons to NOT pursue the profession, when we have already decided that this is what we would like to do.

It's not just one post, but usually every post has negative connotations in reference to Optometry, which can become upsetting.

Moreover, I sometimes question the credibility of these posters because, even though times are tough in the Optometric world, none of the ODs whom I have shadowed face the highly exaggerated realities of certain ODs who post here.

I do appreciate the information that is kept in secrecy by the AOA/schools, but, constantly posting negative sentiments about Optometry, which may be the realities of some new graduates, is IMO a bit insulting to the preoptometrists, optometrists and optometry students.

i agree

 

[319671]

I QMed you my email.

qm?
either way, when did you submit, and when did you have your interview? also what was your gpa and oat score? if you dont mind share

 

[KHE]

The starting salaries will probably be lower with more graduates, but I highly doubt that salaries will drop by a large amount.

Historically, I don't think a doctorate profession has seen a a >10% drop in salary over a relatively short period of time, 20-25 years. Maybe chiropractors?

When I was finishing up as a first year student in 1997, there were people about to graduate who were complaining that starting salaries had not increased in a number of years as they were being offered starting salaries that were the same as what people were being offered in 1993 and 1994. The average daily rate at the time was $350.

Guess what? When I graduated it was still the same in 2000 as it was in 1993. $350.

And guess what? It's THE SAME TODAY 11 years later.

So starting salaries have not increased in nearly 20 years. That is no good. Do you think the cost of an optometric education has gone up in the last 20 years? Do you think the cost of licensure, malpractice insurance, CE etc. ets has gone up in the last 20 years?

Do you think the cost of renting space, purchasing optometric equipment, hiring an optometric office support staff has gone up in the last 20 years?

Do you think the cost of housing, transportation, utilities and fuel has gone up in the last 20 years?

Guess what? It HAS.

And that's the problem. Everything in terms of cost has gone up but salaries for optometrists have not, thanks in large part due to massive oversupply of doctors and a number of new schools starting up is NOT going to help that.

And here's the other kicker.....your top salary as an employee in ANY situation is going to max out super quickly. An OD with 20 years experience is no more valuable than one who has 3 years experience. In some ways, experienced ODs as employees are more of a hinderance than anything.

So this is why I'm telling you all that you need to have a plan for your careers that puts you an ownership track. If you think you'll be "satisfied" with a career in commercial optometry or super-teching for some ophthalmologist for $95k a year for 40 years, you need to give that some loooong and serious thought.

 

[Tippytoe]

When I was finishing up as a first year student in 1997, there were people about to graduate who were complaining that starting salaries had not increased in a number of years as they were being offered starting salaries that were the same as what people were being offered in 1993 and 1994. The average daily rate at the time was $350.

Guess what? When I graduated it was still the same in 2000 as it was in 1993. $350.

And guess what? It's THE SAME TODAY 11 years later.

So starting salaries have not increased in nearly 20 years. That is no good. Do you think the cost of an optometric education has gone up in the last 20 years? Do you think the cost of licensure, malpractice insurance, CE etc. ets has gone up in the last 20 years?

Do you think the cost of renting space, purchasing optometric equipment, hiring an optometric office support staff has gone up in the last 20 years?

Do you think the cost of housing, transportation, utilities and fuel has gone up in the last 20 years?

Guess what? It HAS. .

Nonsense. Emily says income has not gone down so it hasn't. No one should question her!

 

[Jason K]

Personally, especially after being the authors of threads, I feel that these posters are telling us reasons to NOT pursue the profession, when we have already decided that this is what we would like to do.

Don't you think this is a rather short-sighted way to view things? Would you not rather make your decision based on real information rather than what you assume to be true? If you read what I have to say, you do your own research, and you decide I'm wrong, wouldn't you feel more confident in your decision?

It's not just one post, but usually every post has negative connotations in reference to Optometry, which can become upsetting.

If you've made a confident decision on optometry, then what I or anyone else writes about it shouldn't be upsetting. There's always going to be two sides to any story. Picking a side is always the hard part, no matter what the decision. It's a lot easier to choose a side when there's only one to pick from. It's harder to consider other's views, especially when they don't necessarily "fit" with our plans. That's all I'm doing here. I'm telling you some things you might not find out on your own. If you read them and still choose optometry, then at least you've done so knowing both sides of the situation. No one is forcing anyone to read this thread. It's here for the taking if someone wants it, but if the negative side is unwanted, there's no need to look at it.

 

[Tippytoe]

Historically, I don't think a doctorate profession has seen a a >10% drop in salary over a relatively short period of time, 20-25 years. Maybe chiropractors?

From Review of Optometry:

"Indeed, according to our survey, annual net income for the average optometrist dropped 5.6% from 2008 to 2009—from $121,273 down to $114,410. That’s on top of a 10.5% drop from 2007 to 2008. By comparison, net income in 2007 averaged $135,484—so that’s a $21,000 pay cut in two years for the average O.D."

http://www.revoptom.com/content/c/22520/

Errr........so that's 16.1% drop right there. Of course, it's all just more whining from disgruntled ODs. And it's probably fake info too. Probably just made up by some beginning journalist......

 

[319671]

Don't you think this is a rather short-sighted way to view things? Would you not rather make your decision based on real information rather than what you assume to be true? If you read what I have to say, you do your own research, and you decide I'm wrong, wouldn't you feel more confident in your decision?



If you've made a confident decision on optometry, then what I or anyone else writes about it shouldn't be upsetting. There's always going to be two sides to any story. Picking a side is always the hard part, no matter what the decision. It's a lot easier to choose a side when there's only one to pick from. It's harder to consider other's views, especially when they don't necessarily "fit" with our plans. That's all I'm doing here. I'm telling you some things you might not find out on your own. If you read them and still choose optometry, then at least you've done so knowing both sides of the situation. No one is forcing anyone to read this thread. It's here for the taking if someone wants it, but if the negative side is unwanted, there's no need to look at it.

If you ask us to take the high route and "don't look at it", you can also take the high route, and not write negative things. something has a negative connotation whether its upsetting or not. You are badgering pre-opts since you evidently failed as an OD, trying to get your anger out. what a pity

 

[KHE]

If you ask us to take the high route and "don't look at it", you can also take the high route, and not write negative things. something has a negative connotation whether its upsetting or not. You are badgering pre-opts since you evidently failed as an OD, trying to get your anger out. what a pity

Jason K is longwinded and shrill most of the time but he does present legitimate issues that the profession is facing and many of the issues are not presented to pre optometry students by the AOA, the schools etc. etc.

I am not nearly as despondent about the future of optometry as he is but he brings up many legitimate points. I would encourage you all to at least ponder what he's saying. If you decide optometry is still for you, great. But plan well so that you can have the career that you envision for yourself because it doesn't "just happen."

 

[319671]

Jason K is longwinded and shrill most of the time but he does present legitimate issues that the profession is facing and many of the issues are not presented to pre optometry students by the AOA, the schools etc. etc.

I am not nearly as despondent about the future of optometry as he is but he brings up many legitimate points. I would encourage you all to at least ponder what he's saying. If you decide optometry is still for you, great. But plan well so that you can have the career that you envision for yourself because it doesn't "just happen."

I agree with you KHE, its not wrong of him to bring out the facts of what is facing optometry. But to continually BADGER us, even after we've said, "I've researched this profession. I want to do it." He criticizes our choice and acts like the world is going to end.

 

[Eyes Only]

I am not nearly as despondent about the future of optometry as he is but he brings up many legitimate points. I would encourage you all to at least ponder what he's saying. If you decide optometry is still for you, great. But plan well so that you can have the career that you envision for yourself because it doesn't "just happen."

I agree. It really bothers me when I meet recent grads who gave no thought to how they were going to practice until they graduate. They are working several part time jobs, for the day rates previously mentioned (which haven't gone up in many years) and wishing they had chosen another profession.

No one is going to hand you a six figure job when you graduate. It doesn't happen in this profession. In my opinion, the only rewarding way to practice optometry is to be self employed. But you will need to spend some time WHILE you are in optometry school learning about business.

If you learn nothing else from this forum, learn that you need to keep your debt down and you need to have a plan.

I think learning about what the profession is really all about is more important than all the "do you think my stats are good enough" posts. Let's face it with less than 2 qualified applicants for every seat in optometry school and new schools opening, if you have a 3.0 GPA and a 300 OAT (which by the way is only the 50th percentile) someone will take you. Do you really think you won't get admitted because you don't answer some interview question right or don't wear the right clothes to the interview? Do you think some of these schools can afford to be that picky?

If you know you want to be an optometrist then start learning about the business of optometry and quit complaining because someone is raining on your parade.

 

[imemily]

From Review of Optometry:

"Indeed, according to our survey, annual net income for the average optometrist dropped 5.6% from 2008 to 2009—from $121,273 down to $114,410. That’s on top of a 10.5% drop from 2007 to 2008. By comparison, net income in 2007 averaged $135,484—so that’s a $21,000 pay cut in two years for the average O.D."

http://www.revoptom.com/content/c/22520/

Errr........so that's 16.1% drop right there. Of course, it's all just more whining from disgruntled ODs. And it's probably fake info too. Probably just made up by some beginning journalist......

Nice try, but after reading that article, the economy is to blame, NOT the profession on the decline of salaries. This effects ALL professions.

eg.
"The economy has many O.D.s in a funk. Salary satisfaction is just about at an all-time low.

In fact, your whole premise relies upon the belief that more grads = more saturation = lower pay, BUT, what is funny to me is that the entire survey contains no instances of the words "saturation" , "oversupply", "schools" in relation to the drop in salary.

I think you are running out of pellets.

 

[Jason K]

Why don't they ignore us and move on?

Because it's not about you and you alone. You've already made up your mind. There are others who haven't.

Also, as I've said before, no one is "hounding" you. If you don't want to read this thread, which is clearly about oversupply, you don't need to read it.

If you ask us to take the high route and "don't look at it", you can also take the high route, and not write negative things. something has a negative connotation whether its upsetting or not.

Simply avoiding "negative things" because they are unpleasant will not get you far in life. Sticking your head in the sand isn't the way to go.

I agree with you KHE, its not wrong of him to bring out the facts of what is facing optometry. But to continually BADGER us, even after we've said, "I've researched this profession. I want to do it." He criticizes our choice and acts like the world is going to end.

Badgering pre-opts? Where? Where do I badger pre-opts. Please show me where I have specifically "badgered" someone for choosing optometry. You're starting to sound like netmag. Bringing up negatives of the profession and defending myself when appropriate is hardly "badgering." If you don't want to hear it, don't click on the thread. If I were entering threads about OAT scores and inserting my opinion repeatedly, then I'd agree with you.