Ready to testify against CRNA-s

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
2win

2win

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
1,176
Reaction score
33
If the opportunity is coming I will nail them down. I would suggest to be pro active and do the same. They have to know their place.

CANA Statement on CSA/CMA Lawsuit
Boyes Hot Springs, CA (February 9, 2010) The Board of Directors of the California Association of Nurse Anesthetists has issued the following statement in response to a recent lawsuit filed by the California Society of Anesthesiologists and the California Medical Association who challenge the Governor's decision to opt out of the Medicare and Medi‐Cal Condition of Participation for supervision of CRNAs:
"In the fifteen states that have opted out since 2001 when the federal supervision exemption rule was first adopted, there has not been a single reported quality of care incident related to any of the states' opt‐out decisions. California's decision to opt out, like that of the fourteen states that opted out before it, is fully consistent with state law and the opt‐out eligibility requirements."
"The decision to opt out was made by Governor Schwarzenegger because he understands it will facilitate access to quality health care throughout California. The opt‐out is about patient care and access to that care, and it ensures that safe, high quality anesthesia services are available to all Californians. The Governor's decision to exercise this option is particularly good news for those who struggle to obtain care in rural locations and economically disadvantaged areas."
"While no hospital is required to change its own internal policies concerning supervision, the opt‐out will give health care facilities the flexibility they need. Hospitals must be free to provide anesthesia services in the way that will best meet the needs of their patients and their communities. Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists are highly educated professionals who administer safe, effective anesthesia care, as documented by recent studies comparing anesthesia providers with quality of care."

BULL...
CANA Board of Directors 2009‐2010
Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
2win said:
If the opportunity is coming I will nail them down. I would suggest to be pro active and do the same. They have to know their place.

CANA Statement on CSA/CMA Lawsuit
Boyes Hot Springs, CA (February 9, 2010) The Board of Directors of the California Association of Nurse Anesthetists has issued the following statement in response to a recent lawsuit filed by the California Society of Anesthesiologists and the California Medical Association who challenge the Governor’s decision to opt out of the Medicare and Medi‐Cal Condition of Participation for supervision of CRNAs:
”In the fifteen states that have opted out since 2001 when the federal supervision exemption rule was first adopted, there has not been a single reported quality of care incident related to any of the states’ opt‐out decisions. California’s decision to opt out, like that of the fourteen states that opted out before it, is fully consistent with state law and the opt‐out eligibility requirements.”
“The decision to opt out was made by Governor Schwarzenegger because he understands it will facilitate access to quality health care throughout California. The opt‐out is about patient care and access to that care, and it ensures that safe, high quality anesthesia services are available to all Californians. The Governor’s decision to exercise this option is particularly good news for those who struggle to obtain care in rural locations and economically disadvantaged areas.”
“While no hospital is required to change its own internal policies concerning supervision, the opt‐out will give health care facilities the flexibility they need. Hospitals must be free to provide anesthesia services in the way that will best meet the needs of their patients and their communities. Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists are highly educated professionals who administer safe, effective anesthesia care, as documented by recent studies comparing anesthesia providers with quality of care.”

BULL...
CANA Board of Directors 2009‐2010
Click to expand...

This is sad. Somehow, the failures of CRNAs need to be visible to the broader healthcare community and public without compromising patient safety and without looking like non-team players. How are these studies designed? I would like to know what end-points they are comparing...if anesthesiologists are stepping in before the patient dies under the care of a CRNA, this is an obvious confounding factor!
 
sebsvenmdc said:
This is sad. Somehow, the failures of CRNAs need to be visible to the broader healthcare community and public without compromising patient safety and without looking like non-team players. How are these studies designed? I would like to know what end-points they are comparing...if anesthesiologists are stepping in before the patient dies under the care of a CRNA, this is an obvious confounding factor!
Click to expand...


Look how this one is advertising her "degree":

Kirsten Ann Savoie, CRNA MD MSN


http://www.healthline.com/doctors/certified-registered-nurse-anesthetist/kirsten-savoie/15143922

I doubt that she's a MD.
But she's politically very active. LOL


And about Cali organization:
" Who Administers Anesthesia?

In the majority of cases, anesthesia is administered by a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA). CRNAs work with your surgeon, dentist or podiatrist, and may work with an anesthesiologist (physician anesthetist). CRNAs are advanced practice nurses with specialized graduate-level education in anesthesiology. For more than 100 years, nurse anesthetists have been administering anesthesia in all types of surgical cases, using all anesthetic techniques and practicing in every setting in which anesthesia is administered."

JUST LOOK AT THE WAY THAT THEY PUT IT...
MAY WORK...


I doubt that she's a MD.
But she's politically very active. LOL
 
Members don't see this ad :)
2win said:
If the opportunity is coming I will nail them down. I would suggest to be pro active and do the same. They have to know their place.

CANA Statement on CSA/CMA Lawsuit
Boyes Hot Springs, CA (February 9, 2010) The Board of Directors of the California Association of Nurse Anesthetists has issued the following statement in response to a recent lawsuit filed by the California Society of Anesthesiologists and the California Medical Association who challenge the Governor’s decision to opt out of the Medicare and Medi‐Cal Condition of Participation for supervision of CRNAs:
”In the fifteen states that have opted out since 2001 when the federal supervision exemption rule was first adopted, there has not been a single reported quality of care incident related to any of the states’ opt‐out decisions. California’s decision to opt out, like that of the fourteen states that opted out before it, is fully consistent with state law and the opt‐out eligibility requirements.”
“The decision to opt out was made by Governor Schwarzenegger because he understands it will facilitate access to quality health care throughout California. The opt‐out is about patient care and access to that care, and it ensures that safe, high quality anesthesia services are available to all Californians. The Governor’s decision to exercise this option is particularly good news for those who struggle to obtain care in rural locations and economically disadvantaged areas.”
“While no hospital is required to change its own internal policies concerning supervision, the opt‐out will give health care facilities the flexibility they need. Hospitals must be free to provide anesthesia services in the way that will best meet the needs of their patients and their communities. Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists are highly educated professionals who administer safe, effective anesthesia care, as documented by recent studies comparing anesthesia providers with quality of care.”

BULL...
CANA Board of Directors 2009‐2010
Click to expand...

Anything from the surgeons yet?
 
So what is the ultimate consequence for the independent practice expanding to the crna's? Are we going to get to the point where Anesthesiologists' salaries would even out with crna's, maybe somewhere in the middle of both median salaries currently (220k - 250k). Are there going to be less jobs for anesthesiologists and would residency programs shrink accordingly? Any ideas on what the ripple effects would be if this trend continues across the country?
 
CristaGalli said:
So what is the ultimate consequence for the independent practice expanding to the crna's? Are we going to get to the point where Anesthesiologists' salaries would even out with crna's, maybe somewhere in the middle of both median salaries currently (220k - 250k). Are there going to be less jobs for anesthesiologists and would residency programs shrink accordingly? Any ideas on what the ripple effects would be if this trend continues across the country?
Click to expand...

There cannot be an equal pay between MDs and CRNAs...that will mean the death of anesthesiology as a future for MDs. Why would MDs want to unnecessarily expend more energy to do the same thing that CRNAs can do for the same reward? Theoretically, the only advantages would be the actual title and a better background educationally for the heck of it. There aren't a lot of med students that would accept that. The anesthesiology residency numbers will dwindle to an extreme minority. It's embarrassing having nurses constantly claiming that they are just as qualified and competent as anesthesiologists. In fact, the only way for that to be true is:
1) they are more intelligent than MDs as a whole because with their lack of comparative training educationally they have reached the same peformance level
OR
2) anesthesiologists are grossly overdoing the educational components to perform their jobs competently since some of their training is redundant if CRNAs can with less education reach the same level

Either of these outcomes is very unlikely to be true. Therefore, the conclusion that anesthesiologists and CRNAs are equally competent is a FALSE statement.

Basic rhetoric.
 
I here a lot of complaints about salary relative to the education. Has anyone noticed how many years your colleges work to become a pediatrician of fp? Are their salaries 300-400K? No it is about perceived value and supply and demand. As long as CRNA's can perform the an equivalent service (which 99% of the time we do) then we are not going anywhere. An anesthesiologist has been highly educated and trained but so many things that you can do you do not, most do not manage ICU's, most do not perform "big cases" just "supervise them, most do not do pain. Most just go in do the knee scopes and go home.

Well a lot of money was made that way but the music stops at some point and there will not be chairs for all, so either make some new furniture ( do your jobs) or get out of the game.
 
I love the CRNAs claim of "we did it first, therefore we are the best".

Here is a history from the wiki article, which is tightly regulated by nurse-anesthesia.org boys:


"The first nurse to provide anesthesia was Catherine S. Lawrence, and probably along with other nurses, administered anesthesia for Civil War surgeons circa 1861 to 1865.[18] The first "official" nurse anesthetist is recognized as Sister Mary Bernard, a Catholic nun who practiced in 1877 at St. Vincent's Hospital in Erie, Pennsylvania.[19] There is evidence that up to 50 or more other Sisters were called to practice anesthesia in various midwest Catholic and Protestant hospitals throughout the last two decades of the 19th century.["

So, "probably" in the civil war, but the first official was 1877. Wow, 50 or more in the last 2 decades of the 19th century!

In the meantime, Dr. Crawford Long and Dr. Morton performed anesthetics in 1846.

They can't even get their history right.. LOL! :laugh:
 
hellothane said:
I here a lot of complaints about salary relative to the education. Has anyone noticed how many years your colleges work to become a pediatrician of fp? Are their salaries 300-400K? No it is about perceived value and supply and demand. As long as CRNA's can perform the an equivalent service (which 99% of the time we do) then we are not going anywhere. An anesthesiologist has been highly educated and trained but so many things that you can do you do not, most do not manage ICU's, most do not perform "big cases" just "supervise them, most do not do pain. Most just go in do the knee scopes and go home.

Well a lot of money was made that way but the music stops at some point and there will not be chairs for all, so either make some new furniture ( do your jobs) or get out of the game.
Click to expand...

And it's absolutely absurd that CRNA's make more than PCP's. But you are right though. We created the monster that we've now lost control over. CCM here I come:love::love:. Although I'm sure nurses will find their way there and eventually claim equivalency. Let's just face it, the public is ignorant about a lot of things and medicine is just one of them. Just because nurses are perceived to be nicer and supposedly have a better bedside manner does not mean they are the "better" providers. I've spoken to two different CRNA's turned anesthesiology and their response to to going to medschool was "You don't know what you don't know". The depth, and breadth of info covered in medschool is at a whole different level. And YOU will never know, until you've gone thru the curriculum and the testing to realize how much you don't know. In the mean time, you hopefully know enough not endanger anyone's life. Now I've never been to CRNA school, but I've been to nursing school and it was like night and day between the two. And sure I complained about the difficulty of nursing school was at the time, but boy I had no idea.

Anyway, you are right, we need to be more specialized and stop teaching nurses how to do our jobs and then bitching and moaning about it when they make good bank and claim to be "just like MD's because we use the same books". But how do we solve shortage issue of anesthesiologists when there aren't enough residency spots and medschools to churn them out like the nurses do?
 
chocomorsel said:
And it's absolutely absurd that CRNA's make more than PCP's. But you are right though. We created the monster that we've now lost control over. CCM here I come:love::love:. Although I'm sure nurses will find their way there and eventually claim equivalency. Let's just face it, the public is ignorant about a lot of things and medicine is just one of them. Just because nurses are perceived to be nicer and supposedly have a better bedside manner does not mean they are the "better" providers. I've spoken to two different CRNA's turned anesthesiology and their response to to going to medschool was "You don't know what you don't know". The depth, and breadth of info covered in medschool is at a whole different level. And YOU will never know, until you've gone thru the curriculum and the testing to realize how much you don't know. In the mean time, you hopefully know enough not endanger anyone's life. Now I've never been to CRNA school, but I've been to nursing school and it was like night and day between the two. And sure I complained about the difficulty of nursing school was at the time, but boy I had no idea.

Anyway, you are right, we need to be more specialized and stop teaching nurses how to do our jobs and then bitching and moaning about it when they make good bank and claim to be "just like MD's because we use the same books". But how do we solve shortage issue of anesthesiologists when there aren't enough residency spots and medschools to churn them out like the nurses do?
Click to expand...

you make more spots available!!!!! Talked w an attending the other day, he went on and on how about how a few years ago that his colleagues in a very large anesthesiology group did everything they could to flood the market w crnas , including contributing lots of $ to the local crna school, encouraging them to have larger classes etc and NOW that has backfired huge. We need more anesthesiologists, less crnas and aas , and do the major cases!!!! Yes that means attendings are going to have to actually be in the OR ! I dont think attendings have grasped how resentful some of the surgeons are as they SEE the attending in the OR for 10 mins the whole case and the crna/aa doing the whole case and thinking hhhmmmmm now why is he getting paid as much /more than i am and he is the lounge drinking coffee trading stocks. Perception is everything.
 
Coastie said:
I love the CRNAs claim of "we did it first, therefore we are the best".

Here is a history from the wiki article, which is tightly regulated by nurse-anesthesia.org boys:


"The first nurse to provide anesthesia was Catherine S. Lawrence, and probably along with other nurses, administered anesthesia for Civil War surgeons circa 1861 to 1865.[18] The first "official" nurse anesthetist is recognized as Sister Mary Bernard, a Catholic nun who practiced in 1877 at St. Vincent's Hospital in Erie, Pennsylvania.[19] There is evidence that up to 50 or more other Sisters were called to practice anesthesia in various midwest Catholic and Protestant hospitals throughout the last two decades of the 19th century.["

So, "probably" in the civil war, but the first official was 1877. Wow, 50 or more in the last 2 decades of the 19th century!

In the meantime, Dr. Crawford Long and Dr. Morton performed anesthetics in 1846.

They can't even get their history right.. LOL! :laugh:
Click to expand...

Were DR Long and DR. Morton nurses? If you read the entry "The first nurse to provide anesthesia" You cannot even read LOL...wait if a physician cannot read we should all be worried.
 
hellothane said:
Were DR Long and DR. Morton nurses? If you read the entry "The first nurse to provide anesthesia" You cannot even read LOL...wait if a physician cannot read we should all be worried.
Click to expand...

Goodbye murse! Why do you nurse anesthesia.org boys keep feeling the need to impersonate us both online and with patients? History shows we were the first, and still the best:)
 
Doing so well that cali opted out, you must be proud. MD's may have been first but not the best, as for you the screename says it all, later, biatch.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
gasaddict54 said:
you make more spots available!!!!! Talked w an attending the other day, he went on and on how about how a few years ago that his colleagues in a very large anesthesiology group did everything they could to flood the market w crnas , including contributing lots of $ to the local crna school, encouraging them to have larger classes etc and NOW that has backfired huge. We need more anesthesiologists, less crnas and aas , and do the major cases!!!! Yes that means attendings are going to have to actually be in the OR ! I dont think attendings have grasped how resentful some of the surgeons are as they SEE the attending in the OR for 10 mins the whole case and the crna/aa doing the whole case and thinking hhhmmmmm now why is he getting paid as much /more than i am and he is the lounge drinking coffee trading stocks. Perception is everything.
Click to expand...

This is true. CRNA's are EARNING the respect of OUR surgical colleagues. We definitely need more participation of the MD during the course of the case. Popping in and out more frequently, discussing intraoperative labs (if applicable) etc....

You are SO correct in that perception is everything.

We'll turn it around.
 
coastiegosdown said:
Doing so well that cali opted out, you must be proud. MD's may have been first but not the best, as for you the screename says it all, later, biatch.
Click to expand...


Another proof of "intelligence" in this post.
So this individual is getting banned - he cannot take it, he comes with another name only to spit his venom and frustration. This is a great representation of the AANA!
For the residents - when I was one of you guys I didn't have any idea about the crna issue. My attendings were to lazy or uninformed to tell us more about that. They didn't take any action either. We had crna-s students and they behaved. I found some of them after that in the aana (the terrorist organization) spiting and pissing on our profession.
BE AWAKE!
2win
 
coastiegosdown said:
Doing so well that cali opted out, you must be proud. MD's may have been first but not the best, as for you the screename says it all, later, biatch.
Click to expand...
Bye, and good luck, you will need it if you practice without supervision.;)
P.S. I know the CA market very well. Enjoy practicing there in the worst possible locations at the lowest medicare rates (MediCal).:thumbup:
 
gonna be everybodys rates soon, I can live off them, can you?
 
coastiegosdown said:
Doing so well that cali opted out, you must be proud. MD's may have been first but not the best, as for you the screename says it all, later, biatch.
Click to expand...

Just another fine example of the mature, reasonable rhetoric which comes from you boys over on the other site.

Have fun doing knee scopes in Parkfield Junction, California. I'll wave at your every time I'm driving home south on I-5 from the comfort of my SUV.
 
Arch Guillotti said:
The trolls are really coming out of the woodwork lately.

FYI gasaddict54 = SRNA troll thanks to some good sleuthing by some other members of the SDN staff.
Click to expand...

Well it is troll breeding season and all!
 
Arch Guillotti said:
The trolls are really coming out of the woodwork lately.

FYI gasaddict54 = SRNA troll thanks to some good sleuthing by some other members of the SDN staff.[/QUOTE]


I told you guys about 6 months ago that gasaddict was a murse and no one believed me. I can smell them a mile away. :D
Click to expand...
 
Nurses pretending to be doctors:
http://www.usnews.com/articles/educ.../2010/04/15/the-new-doctors-in-the-house.html

Amazing -
"Some M.D.'s will be threatened by this new breed of doctor in the medical house. But with fewer medical students choosing primary care, nurses are moving into a gap rather than pushing out existing physicians. And as we've seen with midwifery, there are patients who prefer the care of an N.P."

They are DUMB??????
 
Who has details - I want to take a deeper look...

CRNA convicted of perjury for lying in medical malpractice case.(certified registered nurse anesthetist)

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-108195194/crna-convicted-perjury-lying.html

I think that this could be one of the reasons that some surgeons "prefer" to work with CRNA-s. No offense to any respectable surgeons, I don't know the details but I don't find any logical reason so far....
Please pm me if you have any details about this specific case or you are aware of similar cases.
Thank you,
2win
 
CRNA convicted of perjury for lying in medical malpractice case.(certified registered nurse anesthetist)
Nursing Law's Regan Report | August 01, 2003 | Tammelleo, A. David

OH WHAT A TANGLED WEB WE WEAVE WHEN FIRST WE ATTEMPT TO DECEIVE! That was the lesson that one certified registered nurse anesthetist (CRNA) learned when he participated in a conspiracy to "cover up" what had actually happen during the course of a botched surgical procedure. Apparently, the surgeons involved as well as their insurance carriers and attorneys representing the defendants had led, or misled, the nurse to give false testimony under oath. The CRNA was convicted of perjury.
WAYNE ZIMLICH, A CRNA, PLEADED GUILTY AND WAS CONVICTED OF PERJURY IN THE SECOND DEGREE. He was sentenced to one year's imprisonment. That sentence was split, and he was ordered to serve 60 day's imprisonment and two years on probation. He was required, as a condition of his probation, to surrender his license to the Alabama Board of Nursing for the two years of his probation. The trial court further ordered that Zimlich refrain from practicing as a nurse or nurse anesthetist in Alabama or any other state during the probationary period. The charges against Nurse Zimlich had their origins back in 1993, when a female patient died during gallbladder surgery. Her family filed a malpractice suit against Nurse Zimlich as well as the supervising physicians involved in the surgery. The plaintiffs alleged that they had negligently cause the death of the patient. The civil case was tried in the Mobile Circuit Court. Nurse Zimlich, who had been present during the operation and administered various medication to the patient, testified at the trial of the medical malpractice case. In November of 1997, Nurse Zimlich sued his insurance company alleging that it had acted in bad faith in failing to settle the malpractice claim against him. He was awarded damages against the company. In the trial against the insurer, he alleged that he had been coerced by the insurance company and its employees, the physician who employed him, and the defense attorney representing the insurance company into giving false testimony at the malpractice trial. In June of 1998, the Grand Jury for Mobile County indicted Nurse Zimlich for perjury. It was clear that at the trial of the medical malpractice case, Nurse Zimlich falsely testified under oath as to the patient's bradycardia. He later testified that it was decided as to what the defense was going to say and that his testimony was "not the truth." Nurse Zimlich appealed his conviction on technical grounds.
THE ALABAMA COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEALS REVERSED THE JUDGMENT OF THE TRIAL COURT AND RENDERED JUDGMENT IN FAVOR OF NURSE ZIMLICH. The court held, inter alia, that the trial court erred in denying Nurse Zimlich's motion to dismiss the perjury charge. A vigorous dissenting opinion was filed in which the dissenting judge noted, with specificity, why he could not find for Nurse Zimlich.
THIS CASE ILLUSTRATES HOW IMPORTANT IT IS THAT NURSES TELL TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH. Nurse Zimlich's failure to tell the truth in this case had dire consequences. In spite of the fact that the Court of Criminal Appeals reversed the judgment against Nurse Zimlich, he was subjected to the ordeal of being charged with and convicted of perjury. Had he owned up to his responsibility and told the truth, he would not have faced any criminal charges. His professional liability insurance carrier should have paid any damages for which he was responsible. Editor's Note: The nurse's insurance carrier as well as its attorney failed to own up to their responsibilities both to the claimant and their insured, Nurse Zimlich. Although the record is silent as to what if any action was taken against any of the other parties including the physicians involved, the consequences of Nurse Zimlich's decision to participate in the "big lie" defense strategy backfired No nurse should ever be influenced by his or her insurance carrier, employer, physicians, or others; they should tell the truth regardless of the consequences. Although the case facts fail to go into detail relative to the particulars regarding Nurse Zimlich's successful suit against his insurer, it appeared that the insurer should have been subjected to action by the appropriate regulatory agency as well as civil and criminal action. Nurses must not allow physicians, insurers, or hospital officials, or any others who are supervising them to adversely influence their willingness to testify truthfully. Incidents in which pressure is placed on nurses to testify as to something other than what actually happened often have their genesis in the very earliest of stages of incidents starting with operative reports and notes. Once anyone embarks on the wrong track, it is difficult to get back on the right track. Simply put, don't embark on the wrong track! Zimlich v. State, 2003 WL 21480421 So.2d-AL
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

G
Charges DROPPED against CRNA
Replies
25
Views
4K
We'llBeDoneIn15Minutes
W
bedrock
CRNA
Replies
22
Views
3K
buddababa
B
BLADEMDA
CRNA murders his wife
Replies
23
Views
3K
GaseousClay
GaseousClay
N
Crna delegation thread
Replies
0
Views
781
neutro
N
Agast
CRNA stealing pain meds
Replies
27
Views
2K
pgg
pgg
Top