Real Talk: Are math/physics/chemistry important during med school and beyond?

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Just curious

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[mcatjelly]

Basic principles, yes. You see physics in cardiology (blood flow) and respiratory physiology (pressure/volume loops), chemistry in renal and pulmonary physiology (acid/base), and math in those equations.

 

[Lawpy]

Pretty sure chemistry is important for understanding physiology and pharmacology. Math and physics are useful in radiology, radiation oncology, cardiology and vascular biology.

 

[bananafish94]

It almost never comes up directly but I think the underlying principles help people more than they know.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Basic principles, yes. You see physics in cardiology (blood flow) and respiratory physiology (pressure/volume loops), chemistry in renal and pulmonary physiology (acid/base), and math in those equations.

This is true, but if you interpret the OP's question in the way that a kid might say, "Do I REALLY need to learn how to divide for real life???" I'd be more inclined to say no. Sure physics is involved, but you could very easily understand and get through med school material related to these topics with a mid high school level of algebra. You don't need university level physics/chemistry to understand basic concepts about pressure and volume, those can be easily explained by saying, "It's like if you do X to a balloon!"

As for beyond, it really depends on the specialty. For some you'd only need very basic knowledge of chemistry, while others actually use physics like @Lawper mentioned. For most physicians the time you spent figuring out kinematics in undergrad will not be useful, unfortunately. I can't remember the last time I saw a pathologist throw a ball from 2m off the ground angled up by 20 degrees in a room without air resistance and wonder how far it will travel in the x-axis before landing, but maybe that's what the future of pathology will bring.

 

[mcatjelly]

This is true, but if you interpret the OP's question in the way that a kid might say, "Do I REALLY need to learn how to divide for real life???" I'd be more inclined to say no. Sure physics is involved, but you could very easily understand and get through med school material related to these topics with a mid high school level of algebra. You don't need university level physics/chemistry to understand basic concepts about pressure and volume, those can be easily explained by saying, "It's like if you do X to a balloon!"

As for beyond, it really depends on the specialty. For some you'd only need very basic knowledge of chemistry, while others actually use physics like @Lawper mentioned. For most physicians the time you spent figuring out kinematics in undergrad will not be useful, unfortunately. I can't remember the last time I saw a pathologist throw a ball from 2m off the ground angled up by 20 degrees in a room without air resistance and wonder how far it will travel in the x-axis before landing, but maybe that's what the future of pathology will bring.

I mean, basic principles =/= a university-level understanding, nor was I implying that kinematics are ever addressed in medical school.

 

[altblue]

Really tho, they probably require a lot of chemistry and physics to see who can actually problem-solve well. It depends on where you take it, but generally biology, which is more relevant, is maybe 80% memorization and 20% problem-solving.

 

[Lawpy]

On the contrary, I think it will be tremendously useful. The physics curriculum itself is very repetitive, even for majors. The stuff you study freshman year (conservation of energy/momentum, harmonic motion, dynamics) is the same stuff you study your senior year, except in tremendously more detail with much harder problems to solve. There is not much in the way of memorizeable fact studying physics gives you compared to how much you grow your reasoning/visualization/problem-solving abilities, which I believe are tremendously important to any scientific field, including and especially medicine.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the importance of reasoning/visualization/problem solving in medicine. But physics isn't the only way to achieve them. And most medical fields don't really use stuff like kinematics in their daily clinical practice. Usually the time when physics stuff is done is in research or in certain specialized fields in medicine.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Pretty much no. Radiology has a lot of physics on their specialty board exam from what I hear but even stuff like cardiology is very simple flow mechanics.

 

[Giovanotto]

You mean, is science important during medical school? Yes. Do they want you to remember what grignard's reagent does? No.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I can't remember the last time I saw a pathologist throw a ball from 2m off the ground angled up by 20 degrees in a room without air resistance and wonder how far it will travel in the x-axis before landing, but maybe that's what the future of pathology will bring.

I’m pretty sure the pathologists in my hospital do this with the femoral heads I send them from my hemiarthroplasties.


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[OrthoTraumaMD]

Just curious

My specialty is a little bit different, but physics/math (vectors etc) is integral in understanding biomechanics, which in turn is the soul of orthopaedics.


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[NotASerialKiller]

I mean, basic principles =/= a university-level understanding, nor was I implying that kinematics are ever addressed in medical school.

Yeah I didn't mean that I thought you were implying those things, just clarifying that overall most doctors don't directly use much from those courses.

On the contrary, I think it will be tremendously useful. The physics curriculum itself is very repetitive, even for majors. The stuff you study freshman year (conservation of energy/momentum, harmonic motion, dynamics) is the same stuff you study your senior year, except in tremendously more detail with much harder problems to solve. There is not much in the way of memorizeable fact studying physics gives you compared to how much you grow your reasoning/visualization/problem-solving abilities, which I believe are tremendously important to any scientific field, including and especially medicine.

I didn't mean learning physics is useless to a future doctor doctor, just that the vast majority of specialties aren't directly using that level of math or physics. If you enjoy physics and want to go into medicine that's great, but I'm pretty sure the OP was really asking whether he/she is directly going to use the material taught in those pre-req courses.

 

[7331poas]

The reason that the premed requirements exist is because med students need to at least understand these concepts to *some* extent. Unfortunately, high schools in the united states are not strictly regulated and a student (in my state where only 1 science class is required to graduate) can easily complete high school + college and never discuss covalent bonds OR DNA OR newton's laws of motion.

 

[Lucca]

have a conversation with a lay person about molecular biology and you will find out how deeply ingrained the kinds of concepts you learned in college really are in your mind already and how much you dont even really think of as knowledge you or anyone had to learn once. That's the kind of knowledge more likely to be applied everyday, in addition to everything you gain in med school about organ systems and drug interactions, etc.

 

[deleted859535]

In my line of work as an emergency attending, there is a significant amount of use that went into what I now take for granted (examples as above and how they play into chronic disease states that I manage all the time without thinking about the raw basic science of it.)

More actively: physics and force vectoring occasionally for trauma in some situations. Hemodynamics and cardiopulmonary principles, based on things above in this thread, in critical care cases in real-time.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Pretty much no. Radiology has a lot of physics on their specialty board exam from what I hear but even stuff like cardiology is very simple flow mechanics.

Rads used to have a separate physics exam, but it got enfolded into their main exam. Radiation oncology is the only specialty with a separate written physics exam as part of the boards (they also have a written radiobiology exam).

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The reason that the premed requirements exist is because med students need to at least understand these concepts to *some* extent. Unfortunately, high schools in the united states are not strictly regulated and a student (in my state where only 1 science class is required to graduate) can easily complete high school + college and never discuss covalent bonds OR DNA OR newton's laws of motion.

Pretty much no one at my high school took chemistry or physics. I’m actually not sure if they even offered those classes.

 

[Planes2Doc]

All of those circuits you learn about in physics are super important because it will be up to you to figure out a power outage crisis in the hospital.

 

[DelayedGratification]

Really tho, they probably require a lot of chemistry and physics to see who can actually problem-solve well. It depends on where you take it, but generally biology, which is more relevant, is maybe 80% memorization and 20% problem-solving.

This x 1000. I would even put bio closer to 90% memorization.
Without the skills you acquire from chem/phys/math you wouldn't be able to understand biochem or think above the first order

 

[861843]

Almost every academic medicine conference I've been to has had a talk along the lines of "Do physicians even understand the methods section anymore?" or "The mean score on this 10 question basic medical statistics quiz was 2.5". I think it depends on your goals, but if you're ever interested in academic medicine problem solving is invaluable and it's something that you can and do learn in math / physics courses.

Disclaimer: bias b/c pure math background with tons of math / stat / med research

 

[7331poas]

All of those circuits you learn about in physics are super important because it will be up to you to figure out a power outage crisis in the hospital.

I mean .I get what you are saying. The problem is that without that physics requirement schools cannot guarantee that you even know what an electronic is.

 

[Lawpy]

Almost every academic medicine conference I've been to has had a talk along the lines of "Do physicians even understand the methods section anymore?" or "The mean score on this 10 question basic medical statistics quiz was 2.5". I think it depends on your goals, but if you're ever interested in academic medicine problem solving is invaluable and it's something that you can and do learn in math / physics courses.

Disclaimer: bias b/c pure math background with tons of math / stat / med research

I think you are just illustrating the importance of taking statistics courses. I don't see the need to require taking any additional math and physics courses. Problem solving can be learned from even chemistry prereqs and in other subjects and validated through MCAT preparation.

 

[moggat]

Aside from problem solving skills (which you can get lots of ways) physics and chem do teach pretty important science fundamentals. Will you need to use Hooke's law? No. Will understanding how springs work make pulmonology easier? Yes. Will you use Bernoulli's principle? Probably not, but if you understand fluid dynamics, cardiology will be a lot more intuitive. Pressure differentials? edema. Osmotic and oncotic pressures? how diuretics and fluid volume work. Le Chatelier's principle? Metabolism and renal physiology. Etc. etc.

Do you need to remember all the formulas and laws? obviously not. But a lot of the conceptual foundations of physics and chemistry that we in science/medicine sort of take for granted or don't consciously think about are taught in physics and chemistry. If you don't have that foundation you have to memorize everything instead of actually understanding it, and idk, sounds like you're just making your life harder for no reason at that point.

The math thing has been discussed much better than I could do by actual math people ^^

 

[Dr. Scribe]

It honestly all depends on what you want to do in medicine.

As a clinician, you will not use knowledge of BCPM very much or at least to a very high degree.

As a researcher, you may very well need to make mathematical models of what you are studying and utilize concepts covered in calc 2 (like integrals/derivatives).

For the most part, just as other people have mentioned, remembering what you learned from your pre-reqs will help you learn new information in medical school, but its far from necessary.

 

[7331poas]

but its far from necessary.

How is knowing what a cell is "far from necessary"?

See this is the problem with arguments like these. The pre-reqs ensure that entering medical students have ANY knowledge of biology physics and chemistry.

If the pre reqs didnt exist, a medical student might not even know what Hydrogen is.

 

[mistafab]

Stuff you learn in college is applicable to med school. Everyday you do things that require foundational knowledge that you don’t even think about twice yet were rooted in stuff you learned during some pre-reqs - math/physics/chemistry included.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

As a clinician, you will not use knowledge of BCPM very much or at least to a very high degree.

Yeah, this is definitely not true. You my not consciously think through a concept like you do in class (but sometimes you do!), but BCPM knowledge absolutely guides you in clinical practice.

 

[Dr. Scribe]

How is knowing what a cell is "far from necessary"?

See this is the problem with arguments like these. The pre-reqs ensure that entering medical students have ANY knowledge of biology physics and chemistry.

If the pre reqs didnt exist, a medical student might not even know what Hydrogen is.

Yeah, this is definitely not true. You my not consciously think through a concept like you do in class (but sometimes you do!), but BCPM knowledge absolutely guides you in clinical practice.

Okay so, to quote myself, “remembering what you learned from your pre-reqs will help you learn new information in medical school”

Obviously you need to know what a cell is in order to practice medicine, but do you need to know the Hardy-Weinberg principle or what turgor pressure is? Not really.

Pre reqs give you a base to learn clinical information, but no one uses everything he/she learned in pre req courses

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Okay so, to quote myself, “remembering what you learned from your pre-reqs will help you learn new information in medical school”

Obviously you need to know what a cell is in order to practice medicine, but do you need to know the Hardy-Weinberg principle or what turgor pressure is? Not really.

Pre reqs give you a base to learn clinical information, but no one uses everything he/she learned in pre req courses

Actually, what you said was:

As a clinician, you will not use knowledge of BCPM very much or at least to a very high degree.

which is not really true. Are you going to be doing chem problems and **** clinically? No. But you’re still using that knowledge.

 

[Dr. Scribe]

Actually, what you said was:



which is not really true. Are you going to be doing chem problems and **** clinically? No. But you’re still using that knowledge.

We’re saying the same thing lol

 

[mistafab]

Hey Dude,

Although the gist of your post is correct, I do have to say I have quite a few questions crop up now and again about Hardy-Weinberg and using the equation. These things really do show up everywhere in med school and you don’t really think about it.

Just the other day, a student on pre-med asked “do I neeed to know genetics for med school?” Literally that day I had like 3 questions about the lac operon and principles learned from those experiments. These seemingly useless tidbits show up again and again because the ideas that they represent are important to master.

Okay so, to quote myself, “remembering what you learned from your pre-reqs will help you learn new information in medical school”

Obviously you need to know what a cell is in order to practice medicine, but do you need to know the Hardy-Weinberg principle or what turgor pressure is? Not really.

Pre reqs give you a base to learn clinical information, but no one uses everything he/she learned in pre req courses

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

We’re saying the same thing lol

Not really, but okay. If what you mean is what I said, you should reword it.

 

[aldol16]

Knowing basic science principles can help you a lot in reasoning in med school - at least in the pre-clinical years. You'll find that in medical school, you have to know a lot more information but at much lesser depth than in undergrad. So you might not get the in-depth mechanistic explanations of things that you got in undergrad so if you already understand the basic science, it might make the information dump easier to make sense of/pick patterns out of.