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REALITY of the merger: PD: "We went from 170 applications to 450 applications our first cycle"

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Ioannes Paulus, May 17, 2017.

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  1. RotationsSoFar

    RotationsSoFar

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    Give me one moment, I'll try to find good sources to place an exact number

    Edit:

    There were 5300 IMG and 7400 FMG applicants last cycle.
    Mean usmle ~220.
    About half matched (huge portion of matches being in lesser-desired locations)

    This means a huge majority of the 12700 foreign grads will absolutely want our current protected spots.

    We have ~30-40 FM programs in sought-after locations.

    Competition will get rough for us on all levels.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  3. DrfluffyMD

    DrfluffyMD

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    There are two things I worry about the merger for the sake of DO students

    1. Cementing the DO degree as a (largely) primary care degree. DO students used to have their own subspecialty training that are a lot more attainable in general than ACGME subspecialty training.

    2. Being squeezed by both sides: competitive MDs take spots from previously secure specialities and IMGs from primary care spots.

    I think the short term effect is a lot of growing pain. We will have to see how t pans out long term.

    The issue with DO discriminations is the same issue with "closet trump voters".

    Folks who have no first hand experience with DOs besides arguing with pre DO kids on the forum are more likely to be discriminatory, and those are often "lifers" who have gone through the entire train of training in top 10 places.

    Many of those people, who are young or fresh out of training now, will be in charge of future ACGME GME selection.

    More over, they aren't necessarily vocal about how they see medical training. They may simply filter DO applicants out, or interview and not match them, or interview them and rank them equally only if their USMLE scores 40 points higher.

    If I ever become a PD I vow to keep MD and DO candidates on equal footing if they performed equially well. This whole prestige thing is a real but is also real BS
     
  4. Whats the issue with closet trump voters? I feel like half of SDN threads have the word trump mentioned at least once now, lol.

    Anyways, sure theres DO discrimination. Its not right, and everything should be merit based once you're in medical school. But how many DOs look down on IMGs and Caribs? DOs should be on equal footing of american MDs in the same way that caribs should be equal footing with us. I would rather work with a carib grad over a DO if the carib grad has a positive personality and is someone who is a motivated hard worker. Some of the responses about caribs/IMGs on SDN are a little disturbing.
     
  5. wjs010

    wjs010 5+ Year Member

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    USMLE was easier than comlex. Lol. 240 USMLE and didn't quite get 600 comlex. Almost though. USMLE is more fairly balanced and representative of FA and comlex can harp on random things multiple multiple times. n=1 though.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
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  6. AnatomyGrey12

    AnatomyGrey12 2+ Year Member

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    One of my buddies told me he literally got a bunch of questions on random bioterrorism. He said he almost laughed in the middle of the test
     
    chizledfrmstone likes this.
  7. DrfluffyMD

    DrfluffyMD

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    When I took the test, I may or may not had a question regarding a high energy physics phenomon that is NOT used in any sort of medicine and is only seen in atomic bombing victims.

    I happened to know the answer because I read a case report regarding high flux radiation exposure from 1956....
     
    chizledfrmstone likes this.
  8. Drrrrrr. Celty

    Drrrrrr. Celty Osteo Dullahan 7+ Year Member

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    I've heard this too.
     
  9. Ioannes Paulus

    Ioannes Paulus 2+ Year Member

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    Stick to topic
     
  10. Drrrrrr. Celty

    Drrrrrr. Celty Osteo Dullahan 7+ Year Member

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    I'm skeptical for the same reason most of them didn't match. Their applications went into the trash.
     
  11. Goro

    Goro Account on Hold Account on Hold 7+ Year Member

    100% agree with Gunner. In my experience (> 15 years), one has to actually work at failing OMM/OMT, and my DO colleague's theory and practical questions can be rather a PITA for my students.



    One of the points of the merger was to squeeze out the IMGs. FMGs are different animals and have very good training. Do not think that the random PD will suddenly have open arms for IMGs. Once again, quoting the wise gyngyn:

    The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.


    Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!


    Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.
     
    NurWollen likes this.
  12. acapnial

    acapnial 2+ Year Member

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    67th percentile usmle and 84th percentile comlex
     
  13. wjs010

    wjs010 5+ Year Member

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    Annnnd... that is 100% literally one of the things they owned me with when I took it. Bioterrorism. Seems I'm not alone:)


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
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  14. Peach Newport

    Peach Newport board certified in jewish dermatology 2+ Year Member

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    You could say all those things about DO grads also. Hell, you could say those things about low-tier MD. Why couldn't they hold out for Harvard?
     
  15. Goro

    Goro Account on Hold Account on Hold 7+ Year Member

    No, you can't say that, Peach...not at all.
     
    Mr Roboto likes this.
  16. explorertx

    explorertx 5+ Year Member

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    NSU has ~ 60 students at broward for their 3rd and 4th year rotations. Even as FIU is taking over the residency programs, NSU DOs will still match better over IMGs. Broward has been very competitive for IM in the past yrs.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
  17. NurWollen

    NurWollen Strong with the Force 7+ Year Member

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    Truth. We had one like one bioterrorism lecture in med school, and it was a good one. But it was one lecture. And then comlex decides to go all crazy with the bioterrorism questions. What's funny, is that I've gotten a few surveys as I'm about to graduate from the AOA about my school's curriculum and about the comlex. They literally asked me if my school's curriculum sufficiently prepared me on the subject of bioterrorism. Apparently the AOA is on a bioterrorism kick, and I don't know why. I imagine that at some meeting or focus group somewhere, they decided it was an important issue, that they wanted emphasize. Honestly though it wasn't that bad. The one lecture I had on it would have been sufficient, if I had thought to review it before the test. Plus, it's actually kind of interesting stuff.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
     
  18. RotationsSoFar

    RotationsSoFar

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    It feels like it would be though. On the NRMP program director survery a lot of PDs stated outright that they dont consider DOs. DOs only marginally had it better than IMGs.

    We match better than the caribean because 50% of us relied on the protected spots we have. Now that 40000 MDs and IMGs get access to our spots, things will start to get rough.

    As as far as I know, MD schools have to maintain a high residency placement rate for accreditation. No such protection exists for DOs. We can have a sea of unmatched DOs and for-profit schools like Burrel will still be allowed to open up class sizes of 200 students.
     
    BorntobeDO? likes this.
  19. Goro

    Goro Account on Hold Account on Hold 7+ Year Member

    Not AOA, but NBOME. Bioterrorism has been a COMLEX question topic for close to a decade now. I suspect that it's because, y'know, you'll be the first ones treating patients dying from respiratory anthrax. I think my Microbiologist colleague gives two hours of lecture on the material.
     
  20. NurWollen

    NurWollen Strong with the Force 7+ Year Member

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    Yeah, I'd say COMLEX was easier, bur USMLE felt easier. COMLEX had a lot of questions out of left freaking field that I didn't know. With the USMLE, it felt like the questions, even if I didn't know them, were fair questions. When I got my scores back, however, my percentile on COMLEX was higher.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
     
    firewalker likes this.
  21. Goro

    Goro Account on Hold Account on Hold 7+ Year Member

    It depends upon the specialty. And it's 23K MDs. The IMGs are going to be in a world of hurt. You can rightly say that the IMGs have their own residencies...in crummy hospitals in bad neighborhoods.

    If it means that DOs get squeezed into Primary Care, PM&R, Neuro, etc and are out of Gen Surg, ENT, and other uber-specialties, then that is one scenario.

    But if an average Gtown grad will now get into a former AOA Ortho slot, who will get the good Family Med slot that the Gtown guy/gal was going into? Will DOs have shots at better Primary Care residencies? Haven't a clue. I think that we'll have better luck predicting the outcome of the 2020 presidential election.
     
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  22. BorntobeDO?

    BorntobeDO? SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor 2+ Year Member

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    Unfortunately this was my experience this semester The lack of practice questions kills me. Btw, if anyone knows where there are good ones, feel free to post. OMM is easily the most frustrating class in that time put in is not equal to doing well.
    That's really all you can ask for. Competition is fine, but a penalty on top of it (especially when doing all the MD things as a DO is already a penalty), is just hard. My hope is that more residencys will look at it this way, and let the top students get in if worthy. I am beyond worrying about whether DO will be cemented as a mostly primary care degree. It already has been. AOA sold us out on that front about 8 years when they started the huge expansions.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  23. RotationsSoFar

    RotationsSoFar

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    Even family medicine is 80% open to DOs and 60% open to IMGs. I'm just trying to convey that we're not that much more advantaged over IMGs. Until now, we didnt have to worry if the MD program director at Broward or PCOM has the same attitude. Now we need to worry about that with our DO residencies too.

    I'm personally interested in Internal Medicine/Psych and I'm concerned. DOs have an 80% match success in the NRMP. The 20% who dont make it, had the fallback of a hundreds of empty DO residencies.

    Now, when we dont match in the ACGME, our only backup will be the SOAP and that's a nightmare.
     
    W19 likes this.
  24. Peach Newport

    Peach Newport board certified in jewish dermatology 2+ Year Member

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    Wait a minute. Now that I'm thinking about this, this doesn't seem so bad.

    This is an ORTHO residency. IN SOUTH FLORIDA. And they still kept it 2/3 DO.

    Guys, It doesn't get much more desireable than ortho in South Florida. The number of applications nearly tripled, but honestly? It could have been much worse.

    Yeah, it's theoretically gonna be harder for DOs to match surgical subspecialties, but USMDs aren't going to be poaching our thousands of EM, FM, IM, psych, OB, rads, gas, or Peds spots any time soon. IMGs will try though, and they'll fail for all the same reasons we've repeated in this thread.
     
  25. Ioannes Paulus

    Ioannes Paulus 2+ Year Member

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    Probably because they allowed audition rotations this year which will be phased out soon. This will be an all-MD program in 2-3 years.
    Also, your comment assumes that "our" "thousands" of other programs will be accredited by the ACGME and, again, the reality doesn't seem to point that way as many of these programs are either closing or merging with existing programs to meet ACGME standards. EM will be really bad next year as programs will be transitioning from 4 to 3 year programs and may not participate in the match or take much fewer student because they have already reached the cap
     
  26. 68PGunner

    68PGunner 5+ Year Member

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    Saverese. You can thank me later.
     
  27. DetectiveAlonzo

    DetectiveAlonzo 2+ Year Member

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    This is absolute bull****. I don't want my spot going to some IMG who took 3 months off to study for the goddamn step 1 from the Caribbean and got to spend a whole semester doing a kaplan review course nailing a 240+ able to snag ANY spot from ME or ANY US DO or MD student...

    idgaf if it is in butt-town Mississippi or doo-hicky kentucky.

    That is absolutely not fair and it's a slap in the face for all of us who worked our asses off to stay in the US and go to school here and not take any shortcuts because some program based our acceptances on whether or not mommy and daddy can pay some bull**** tuition because mommy and daddy could afford it and ship us overseas to an island to "study medicine".

    I really hope PDs understand this!
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  28. 68PGunner

    68PGunner 5+ Year Member

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    Better start prepping for board from Day 1 if you don't want to go unmatched.
     
  29. DarkHorizon

    DarkHorizon 7+ Year Member

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    DO Ortho resident here. Couple of things to remember. There are plenty of phenomenal DO Ortho candidates out there that have great CVs and stats. Many of them lose out spots to mediocre candidates who charm programs through audition rotations. I think there is no shortage of excellent academic applicants to DO Ortho programs. I think the merger will change the selection process for some programs that weigh audition rotation over everything else. That, or programs will have a board score requirement for rotation (a lot of programs are doing this already).

    In short, I wouldn't worry about DOs losing out spots to MDs at DO programs due to lack of academic prowess, unless a program just wants to take MDs because they are MDs. You have to remember, all those stud MD students are not looking at some previous community DO programs. DO applicant pool would easily compete with MD applicants that go unmatched, looking at applications the last few years.

    In short, if you want Ortho, better crush them boards and start with some research projects.
     
  30. DarkHorizon

    DarkHorizon 7+ Year Member

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    I seriously doubt that.
     
    Alienman52 likes this.
  31. DetectiveAlonzo

    DetectiveAlonzo 2+ Year Member

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    You bet your ass I have been!
     
  32. DarkHorizon

    DarkHorizon 7+ Year Member

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    That's rather intriguing because he has residents in his program with 500s, heck, he graduated a resident last year who practiced FM for 15 years before becoming an Ortho resident. He passed his boards.

    If he won't take applicants with 500s, it won't be because they won't pass their boards, it'll be because of increasing competition.

    P.S, we ranked three candidates this year that matched at two of the five newly ACGME accredited programa. Respective board scores were 588, 566, and 558. Not the strongest but were all stellar students on rotation and will make great residents.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  33. 68PGunner

    68PGunner 5+ Year Member

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    We have been through this medical school business to know that the gatekeepers are risk aversed people who want to take the people most likely to pass boards. It's the same idea for medical schools and residencies. Smarter medical students w/ high MCATs = higher board pass rate with less babysitting from the school. Smarter residents w/ high Step scores = higher board pass rate with less babysitting from attendings. Everyone in life wants to hit certain goals with minimal effort. A resident dropout means the PD a$$ on the line.
     
  34. DarkHorizon

    DarkHorizon 7+ Year Member

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    I don't disagree with this, but if you did above average on boards, you'd most likely pass the Ortho boards. That shouldn't be the reason to take an applicant in the program with high stats. Many people with high stats are terrible clinically and are lazy. Seen it first hand. You need some balance to it. Even with all that, you can easily find people with excellent academic record that work hard and are easy to get along with.

    His reason has more to do with increased competition for Ortho spots than his residents failing boards IMO. He needs to weed out applicants somehow, board scores is an objective way.

    On the other hand, I do disagree with programs taking applicants with board scores less than 500. I think it's criminal that some students schmooze their way in with barely passing board scores, or worse, failing scores. Seen it first hand. It deprives those who have been busting their asses from day 1 in school and probably were not the most outgoing or were a bit quiet. Nepotism also plays a part. I disagree with that kind of good ole boy system. If you'd have a hard time getting in family medicine with your boards, you shouldn't be given an Ortho spot. Just one man's opinion. I'm glad that'll go away with the merger (hopefully).
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  35. BorntobeDO?

    BorntobeDO? SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor 2+ Year Member

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    Yeah, the green book only goes so far, I think I might have a faculty/fellow issue.
     
  36. ThreeCheers

    ThreeCheers

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    Are COMLEX cut-offs for audition rotations a new thing? I've seen them for virtually every AOA program I researched, and I was by no means looking at top-tier competitive specialties. The only exceptions were some (but not all) hospitals affiliated with my school.

    Edit: Actually, I might also be thinking of programs that required applicants to report their COMLEX score to schedule an audition but did not specify a cut-off. But there were definitely still a good amount of programs that had a cut-off.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  37. Peach Newport

    Peach Newport board certified in jewish dermatology 2+ Year Member

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    Dude chill out. Even a DO with barely passing board scores can match ACGME FM or community IM. Something like what, 20% of DOs do AOA residencies?
     
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  38. 68PGunner

    68PGunner 5+ Year Member

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    Wrong
     
  39. Peach Newport

    Peach Newport board certified in jewish dermatology 2+ Year Member

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    That's an extremely unhelpful post.

    At most the number is 1/3, Still according to the aoa site, nearly 1000 aoa spots went unfilled last year.
     
    Hkhan likes this.
  40. 68PGunner

    68PGunner 5+ Year Member

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    Still wrong.

    I'm pretty sure that if I have time, I can certainly pull up a DO match list and show that this number is greater than 1/3.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  41. Peach Newport

    Peach Newport board certified in jewish dermatology 2+ Year Member

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    Well then why don't you enlighten me Mr. smarty pants?
     
  42. 68PGunner

    68PGunner 5+ Year Member

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    Not smart. Your point is just ridiculous and downright incorrect.
     
  43. 68PGunner

    68PGunner 5+ Year Member

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    2017 Match List

    Look at the first post and count the # of ACGME #s vs AOA #s. Hint: it's more than 1/3.
     
    bankaix808 likes this.
  44. IslandStyle808

    IslandStyle808 Akuma residency or bust! 5+ Year Member

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    DO Match Results Raise the Bar

    I have the number at around 49% for 2016. Its around half the spots.
     
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  45. Peach Newport

    Peach Newport board certified in jewish dermatology 2+ Year Member

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    Wait, since when are there only 5000 DO seniors? I thought the number was over 7000.
     
  46. IslandStyle808

    IslandStyle808 Akuma residency or bust! 5+ Year Member

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    Where did you get the 7000 from?
     
    68PGunner likes this.
  47. IslandStyle808

    IslandStyle808 Akuma residency or bust! 5+ Year Member

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    BorntobeDO? likes this.
  48. 68PGunner

    68PGunner 5+ Year Member

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    So we increase our graduating class size by 45% with all of these Caribbean style DO schools out there. The reckless expansion is an embarrassment.
     
  49. DetectiveAlonzo

    DetectiveAlonzo 2+ Year Member

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    It's a race for that $$$.

    The program my boyfriend goes to will be expanding their class size by more than HALF of their current class size....
     
  50. Lexdiamondz

    Lexdiamondz 5+ Year Member

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    But this data doesn't say anything about your individual chances as an outlier, it only confirms what everyone already knows - that outliers exist. We have no idea what confounding factors these people had which allowed them to match (CV, home school prestige, family connections, etc) so to say that these data points show your actual odds is kind of naïve
     
    SouthernSurgeon likes this.
  51. SouthernSurgeon

    SouthernSurgeon Lifetime Donor 7+ Year Member

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    Posting data doesn't mean you understand it.

    I'd agree with the other poster who mentioned that while 60% match odds indicate it's "possible", it's not something that a lot of people are going to be excited about risking their future on.

    More importantly though is it ignores the issue of self-selection. Meaning how many people out there with 220s didn't even bother to apply to ortho because they either didn't have the other components of the application up to snuff or didn't like those 60% odds.

    Generally speaking, the people with sub-average board scores who match into competitive specialties have a lot of other stuff going for them that make up for the one deficit in their application.
     

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