Reapplicant problem

[jordan26]

NA

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[cluelessmedstudent411]

Hello everyone. I am a reapplicant. I did start intern year in another specialty than the one I’m applying to two years ago. I completed 7 months of that intern year then made the decision to resign. The program was known as malignant but I only found out when I started. I ignored the bullying and all and tried to keep my head down but then I started being sexually harassed by someone who had a higher position than me. As you can see I am not giving out details because I’m still to this day afraid. The harassment didn’t stop despite me telling my PD because there was a very close relationship between the PD and this person who is also a Doctor by the way. The sad truth is I might have just kept going to finish my intern year and avoid the situation I’m in right now but I became pregnant (by my husband) and started to have complications from all the stress I was enduring. I didn’t tell my husband about the sexual harassment at the time because I was afraid that would jeopardize my position as well. But because I got pregnant and was having health issues I couldn’t take it any longer and told HR. PD tried to cover up for this person and no one helped. I sent my letter of resignation. Otherwise I was a really good intern and did well academically in school and residency. I can give more details in a pm.
Well now I am reapplying and there is a program that I absolutely love. Opposite of what I went through. Had a great interview too. One caveat, the PD asked to speak to my old PD just to make sure everything’s ok. I understand Ofcourse but my old PD is not a nice person. One of my former colleagues actually straight up told me she will not help you. She doesn’t help anyone anyway. And she also said something that scared me she said try to even keep it away from her that you applied so she doesn’t sabotage it.

I don’t know what to do. I’ve been crying day and night. I’m a really good student and I worked so hard. How is something that wasn’t even my fault going to ruin my future like this.

what would you do in my place. Is there any other way to show this new programs PD that I was in good standing and that I was the one to resign not get kicked out. Is that all she wants to know? What would she talk to my old PD about? She’s not even going to answer her I know that and what’s worse she might even sabotage everything.
I’m lost. I would appreciate any help or advice.
Thank you

I am really sorry to hear you had to go through such an awful situation. Just know that you're a good doctor and you will get through this.

In terms of what can be done, if you had made a formal complaint to HR at your previous hospital there might be things you can do. You could discuss the situation with HR and with your previous ACGME office. I am sure they would be able to at least provide a letter stating you resigned in good standing and were not fired. If they are willing, they might even be able to provide more information about the situation in writing for you to give to new PD.

The other source you might be able to turn to are any attendings in leadership positions at your old program that you had a good relationship with (i.e maybe people that wrote LORs for you for this application) to reach out on your behalf to the new PD.

At the end of the day, your new PD will probably want to talk with the old PD regardless of the information you provide. But by providing all this info to back you up, you can at least do your best to defend yourself. It has been close to a year since you were last in your previous program. There is a chance your old PD might not be an ***hole and just state the facts for new PD such as you being a good resident. You could also try reaching out to the old PD to have a phone/zoom conversation with him/her and let her know you're applying again and that this PD wants to talk with him/her and see what they say.

 

[jordan26]

I am really sorry to hear you had to go through such an awful situation. Just know that you're a good doctor and you will get through this.

In terms of what can be done, if you had made a formal complaint to HR at your previous hospital there might be things you can do. You could discuss the situation with HR and with your previous ACGME office. I am sure they would be able to at least provide a letter stating you resigned in good standing and were not fired. If they are willing, they might even be able to provide more information about the situation in writing for you to give to new PD.

The other source you might be able to turn to are any attendings in leadership positions at your old program that you had a good relationship with (i.e maybe people that wrote LORs for you for this application) to reach out on your behalf to the new PD.

At the end of the day, your new PD will probably want to talk with the old PD regardless of the information you provide. But by providing all this info to back you up, you can at least do your best to defend yourself. It has been close to a year since you were last in your previous program. There is a chance your old PD might not be an ***hole and just state the facts for new PD such as you being a good resident. You could also try reaching out to the old PD to have a phone/zoom conversation with him/her and let her know you're applying again and that this PD wants to talk with him/her and see what they say.

Thank you

 

[jordan26]

Wish a PD or someone who has some sort of experience in this could give their opinion or advice

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I agree with the above. You really have no choice to make here. Your potential new PD wants to talk to your old PD. I assume you already explained your version of events to your new PD -if all you told them was that you resigned for "personal reasons", you should be more explicit. Then, you should have your potential new PD talk to your old PD. If you don't, you're probably not going to get the spot.

 

[jordan26]

I agree with the above. You really have no choice to make here. Your potential new PD wants to talk to your old PD. I assume you already explained your version of events to your new PD -if all you told them was that you resigned for "personal reasons", you should be more explicit. Then, you should have your potential new PD talk to your old PD. If you don't, you're probably not going to get the spot.

I did not tell them all of that no because were told not to speak badly about other programs and all. You suggest I tell them what happened?

 

[Redpancreas]

Hello everyone. I am a reapplicant. I did start intern year in another specialty than the one I’m applying to two years ago. I completed 7 months of that intern year then made the decision to resign. The program was known as malignant but I only found out when I started. I ignored the bullying and all and tried to keep my head down but then I started being sexually harassed by someone who had a higher position than me. As you can see I am not giving out details because I’m still to this day afraid. The harassment didn’t stop despite me telling my PD because there was a very close relationship between the PD and this person who is also a Doctor by the way. The sad truth is I might have just kept going to finish my intern year and avoid the situation I’m in right now but I became pregnant (by my husband) and started to have complications from all the stress I was enduring. I didn’t tell my husband about the sexual harassment at the time because I was afraid that would jeopardize my position as well. But because I got pregnant and was having health issues I couldn’t take it any longer and told HR. PD tried to cover up for this person and no one helped. I sent my letter of resignation. Otherwise I was a really good intern and did well academically in school and residency. I can give more details in a pm.
Well now I am reapplying and there is a program that I absolutely love. Opposite of what I went through. Had a great interview too. One caveat, the PD asked to speak to my old PD just to make sure everything’s ok. I understand Ofcourse but my old PD is not a nice person. One of my former colleagues actually straight up told me she will not help you. She doesn’t help anyone anyway. And she also said something that scared me she said try to even keep it away from her that you applied so she doesn’t sabotage it.

I don’t know what to do. I’ve been crying day and night. I’m a really good student and I worked so hard. How is something that wasn’t even my fault going to ruin my future like this.

what would you do in my place. Is there any other way to show this new programs PD that I was in good standing and that I was the one to resign not get kicked out. Is that all she wants to know? What would she talk to my old PD about? She’s not even going to answer her I know that and what’s worse she might even sabotage everything.
I’m lost. I would appreciate any help or advice.
Thank you

The above posts do a better job addressing what to do right now about obtaining this new position you want. My post goes more into what to do if you need to continue with the cycle.
---
First off, you're not alone. Your situations draws a lot of parallels to what many on here have experienced. Outlined below is what I recommend.

1. Don't assume what your old PD will say. Give them a chance. You need to bite the bullet and talk to your old PD. Ask them for a strong letter of recommendation that highlights your strengths. Additionally, ask them if they would be willing to vouch for you in the event of any phone calls asking for verification about you. Unless you've wrongly antagonized someone or the PD is malignant, this is the industry standard from what I've observed from the few situations I've encountered. It should be a factual statement highlighting that there were no issues with professionalism, medical knowledge, substance abuse, etc. and there are many ways they can phrase it to sound ambiguous to give you a chance to explain it for them. Also, ask for letters from your associate program directors. Having multiple PD/APDs speak on your behalf. I know you have ONE program you're set on, but you may need these letters for later so better to ask for them now and have them for later.

***2. If #1 does not work or based on the PDs behavior when you talk to them you can tell things aren't going to work out, this is where I would think someone is violating Title IX. Stop talking with the program. Talk and find out who the best lawyer with expertise in Title IX as well as medical education. Develop a rapport with them and provide them with all the handbooks and policies your residency has. Don't notify your program of this and don't even send emails to the GME office because they may tip off a PD. If you were sexually harassed you can and should make a big stink out of this for not only you but so that this person is ousted. It is not for compensation. Ultimately you're fighting for your ability to get a fresh start. It may take a year to settle in court but ultimately you are in the right in this case and when the dust settles should be fairly compensated. People worry about the PR from getting a lawyer involved but I guarantee you that if there was actually sexual harassment you will come out on the right side of this and multiple programs would be open to taking you.

***-I actually have no experience with Title IX or malignant PD behavior so that is just my inclination assuming the best in people which is a luxury I know you don't have. The first point is more speaking from my experience. Good luck OP and keep us updated as you feel you need to.

 

[jordan26]

The above posts do a better job addressing what to do right now about obtaining this new position you want. My post goes more into what to do if you need to continue with the cycle.
---
First off, you're not alone. Your situations draws a lot of parallels between what I as well as others have experienced in the not so distant past. Fortunately my situation did not include sexual harassment, etc. I'm very sorry that this happened to you. Outlined below is what I recommend.

1. Don't assume what your old PD will say. Give them a chance. You need to bite the bullet and talk to your old PD. Ask them for a strong letter of recommendation that highlights your strengths. Additionally, ask them if they would be willing to vouch for you in the event of any phone calls asking for verification about you. Unless you've wrongly antagonized someone or the PD is malignant, this is the industry standard from what I've observed from the few situations I've encountered. It should be a factual statement highlighting that there were no issues with professionalism, medical knowledge, substance abuse, etc. and there are many ways they can phrase it to sound ambiguous to give you a chance to explain it for them. Also, ask for letters from your associate program directors. Having multiple PD/APDs speak on your behalf. I know you have ONE program you're set on, but you may need these letters for later so better to ask for them now and have them for later.

***2. If #1 does not work or based on the PDs behavior when you talk to them you can tell things aren't going to work out, this is where I would think someone is violating Title IX. Stop talking with the program. Talk and find out who the best lawyer with expertise in Title IX as well as medical education. Develop a rapport with them and provide them with all the handbooks and policies your residency has. Don't notify your program of this and don't even send emails to the GME office because they may tip off a PD. If you were sexually harassed you can and should make a big stink out of this for not only you but so that this person is ousted. It is not for compensation. Ultimately you're fighting for your ability to get a fresh start. It may take a year to settle in court but ultimately you are in the right in this case and when the dust settles should be fairly compensated. People worry about the PR from getting a lawyer involved but I guarantee you that if there was actually sexual harassment you will come out on the right side of this and multiple programs would be open to taking you.

***-I actually have no experience with Title IX or malignant PD behavior so that is just my inclination assuming the best in people which is a luxury I know you don't have. The first point is more speaking from my experience. Good luck OP and keep us updated as you feel you need to.

Unfortunately my old PD is not going to be helpful at all. I still get calls to this day from co residents saying they go home and cry themselves to sleep because the program is so malignant. They didn’t even allow some of them to get their licenses during PGY2 because she was afraid they’ll leave

I don’t know what to do. I’ll definitely look into the title IX I’ve never heard about that before. This was like two years ago is that ok. It just hurts so much because I was a good student done well academically and it just hurts that now I’m stuck because of something I couldn’t control and had no help in. I want this position so bad. The interview went really well and I wish things were different with my old program I just want to move on with mylife and forget what happened there and start over. I just need someone to look past the formalities and see me as the person I am and give me that second chance.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I did not tell them all of that no because were told not to speak badly about other programs and all. You suggest I tell them what happened?

I would tell them a highly sanitized version. Don't get into the crazy details. Let them know that the program was less than supportive of residents, that there was some harrassing behavior directed towards you, that the program did not handle it well, and then with your pregnancy continuing became impossible.

You could not tell them anything, and wait to see what happens. If after contacting your prior PD the position suddenly evaporates, you could then tell them your story -- and say that you did not want to tell it beforehand as to not malign your past program.

 

[rokshana]

I would tell them a highly sanitized version. Don't get into the crazy details. Let them know that the program was less than supportive of residents, that there was some harrassing behavior directed towards you, that the program did not handle it well, and then with your pregnancy continuing became impossible.

You could not tell them anything, and wait to see what happens. If after contacting your prior PD the position suddenly evaporates, you could then tell them your story -- and say that you did not want to tell it beforehand as to not malign your past program.

OP , better to tell them something first...the potential PD will compare stories and frankly, you want them to be on your side.

and while naPD is no longer a PD...he was one for sometime...

 

[jordan26]

OP , better to tell them something first...the potential PD will compare stories and frankly, you want them to be on your side.

and while naPD is no longer a PD...he was one for sometime...

I doubt the PD will even respond. As my close colleague said she won’t respond and might also sabotage things for me. I have my letter of resignation as evidence and I was thinking of contacting HR. This is so hard.

 

[jordan26]

I would tell them a highly sanitized version. Don't get into the crazy details. Let them know that the program was less than supportive of residents, that there was some harrassing behavior directed towards you, that the program did not handle it well, and then with your pregnancy continuing became impossible.

You could not tell them anything, and wait to see what happens. If after contacting your prior PD the position suddenly evaporates, you could then tell them your story -- and say that you did not want to tell it beforehand as to not malign your past program.

Thank you naPD I really appreciate your help.

 

[jordan26]

One more thing guys, if I decide to go through the SOAP in case the new program decides they don’t want me anymore because of this do I have to tell my whole story. Will they also want to speak to my previous PD? I’m so scared from the SOAP honestly because it’s so fast it seems like and you don’t even have an interview and I’m literally traumatized by my first experience with residency.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You may be making this out to be much worse than it really is. It's quite possible that your old PD will not malign you in any way. Or, it's possible that it's well known that this is a miserable program and the new PD expects some BS.

 

[Mom24FutureMD]

As someone who has found herself in a similar situation, I can vouch for the fact that there are some PD's who absolutely have it out for particular interns and they just will not allow them to move to another program.
I'm interested to know what happened.

 

[jordan26]

I would tell them a highly sanitized version. Don't get into the crazy details. Let them know that the program was less than supportive of residents, that there was some harrassing behavior directed towards you, that the program did not handle it well, and then with your pregnancy continuing became impossible.

You could not tell them anything, and wait to see what happens. If after contacting your prior PD the position suddenly evaporates, you could then tell them your story -- and say that you did not want to tell it beforehand as to not malign your past program.

Hi apd can you please help me? I did half of my intern year at my IM program before I resigned. Did the program have to report this to GME or anything or did they still get funding for my position even thought I wasn’t there. Let’s say I want to enter another program now that is 4 or 5 years long. Do I still have enough funding for this? I’m so confused about this. Also the PD of the new program wants to speak to my old PD what do you think they will be discussing? Just nervous. Thanks so much.

 

[candbgirl]

Hi apd can you please help me? I did half of my intern year at my IM program before I resigned. Did the program have to report this to GME or anything or did they still get funding for my position even thought I wasn’t there. Let’s say I want to enter another program now that is 4 or 5 years long. Do I still have enough funding for this? I’m so confused about this. Also the PD of the new program wants to speak to my old PD what do you think they will be discussing? Just nervous. Thanks so much.

I was going to suggest you started new thread but then I saw you were the OP. How did your original question resolve? Did your former Pd talk to the PD that was interested in hiring you?

 

[gutonc]

Hi apd can you please help me? I did half of my intern year at my IM program before I resigned. Did the program have to report this to GME or anything or did they still get funding for my position even thought I wasn’t there. Let’s say I want to enter another program now that is 4 or 5 years long. Do I still have enough funding for this? I’m so confused about this. Also the PD of the new program wants to speak to my old PD what do you think they will be discussing? Just nervous. Thanks so much.

Your funding clock started on the day you started intern year. It doesn't pause mid-way through the year and you can't get "credit" for it. So you're down to 2 fully funded years at this point.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I'm not honestly certain what your funding situation is. I know for certain that the second you left your program, your funding there stopped -- we have to submit a monthly medicare funding report to get paid, and on that report we have to report, by the day, which residents qualify for funding. For example, our residents rotate both at the Univ hospital, a VA, and some community sites. If a resident works a week at the Univ, but then has a clinic at the VA for a 1/2 day, we need to "back out" that 1/2 day from the Medicare cost report, and then bill the VA for the 1/2 day. It's whoppingly complicated and it's one of the main reasons that programs use some sort of residency management software -- to track all of this and generate the cost reports correctly. So, the program stopped getting paid the day you left, or has committed Medicare fraud.

I'm not certain how IRP's for training are counted, so I don't know if tehy consider you using 1 year, or only 3/4 of a year. No matter what, you have no more than 2 1/4 years of full funding left. But when your IRP runs out, you don't get no funding -- you just get less funding. And some institutions are over their "cap" which means the get zero funding for some residents -- in that case it may not matter at all. This is all very complicated, and there's also nothing you can do about it. Presumably if programs are considering you and they know your training timeline, then they know about the funding issue and don't care.

Regarding PD-to-PD communication, when taking on a new resident who resigned from a prior program, most PD's are trying to sort out whether you truly resigned in good standing, or resigned to avoid being terminated (or some other problem). Also, as discussed earlier in this thread, not much you can do about this. Best to tell your new PD a sanitized version of the story, and then have them talk to your old PD.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I think that's unlikely. If your old PD does not answer your (potential) new PD, they will likely just proceed without that information.

I wonder if getting some help for this emotional roller coaster would be helpful? Crying all day is never a great sign.

 

[Redpancreas]

OP at this point you need to literally find a distraction until March. I don't care if it is the most-self-indulging thing ever. Avoid thoughts of this. Like naPD said, seeking help is generic advice, but is always the right answer. I hope you're getting some. Also, program directors only spend so much time on thinking about this as opposed to all the angles you're perceiving this in. I know how it feels. You get comfortable with a reassuring angle of how things will be, then randomly someone brings something up casually and suddenly you spiral until you find that stability again with something else and wonder how you could have felt that badly until that cycle repeats itself.

I can clarify a few things. The programs usually file with medicare monthly so you used up 7 months. Additionally, there are two funding streams. There is a Direct Medical Education (DME) which pays for more discrete things like salaries and benefits. It is funded 50% once your funding timeline is over. Then, there is a Indirect Medical Education (IME) funding which pays for presumably more expensive indirect costs attributed to a resident at 100% which are not really mentioned explicitly. If it makes you feel better, take a weighted average and realize the new program that takes you will be funded for 2 years and 5 months fully and then 2 years and 7 months at somewhere over 75% if I'm interpreting this right. Then, I'm not sure what naPD is saying exactly about being over the cap, but if it's the case everything is funded. This particular program has interviewed you, they likely don't care. If you think about all the programs that are not showing interest, it is for the reasons that have been bouncing around your head. This program is looking into you so the overwhelming odds are they don't care. If you have to face the SOAP this March, then remember that in the end, you did everything right and it just didn't work out and that you can still make a difference as a physician in whatever you end up pursuing.

Let that be the last thought before you just straight up stop thinking about this until it's time to.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Agree with the above.

To be more specific about the cap, per legislation hoping to rein in medical costs back in 1997, each institution was capped at their current number of residents. Prior to that, programs/hospitals could just increase their number of residents and claim more payments. Post 1997 new residents are unfunded (new programs getting started allow increasing the cap, but it's complicated).

So, programs that have increased their resident compliment post 1997 have some number of residents that are just completely unfunded. In that case, hiring someone with "decreased funding" doesn't really matter -- since they could simply be the resident who gets no funding. But if the program takes too many residents with decreased funding, then it could become an issue.