Regretting optometry after I think of this....

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I don't mean to be rude, but why do you refer to the profession as "our" profession? I just find this recent attitude of pre-optometry students who think they know it all and are part of something they have yet to earn.

Looks as if they are a student, so before flaming a student, learn a bit about them. I worked in the field for 10 years before applying to optometry school. Does that mean I know nothing about it? I've grew up around the field since I was 2, does that I mean I'm not a part of it? Think before commenting.
 
In regards to Indiana OD and Princeod

I apologize for the ambiguity here, but I actually agree with both of you. This is not an "either/or" argument. Here it is, in my opinion:

Regarding the posting above, I would say that there is a HUGE aura of entitlement to a lot of the young docs that I know. A lot of them are under the impression that we are like dermatologists: I.E. You get out of school (actually a residency), walk directly into an offer, sign on a dotted line, and start making 6 figures. You can (and some are, I promise) be repugnant to most of your patients, have very little business sense, move to roughly an area you want, etc, and none of this will change your supply of patients.....as I say to young docs, "Most MD's get their patients by referral. You have to get them by choice alone."

What all of this means is that a graduating OD must be all of the following:
1) Very fluent in ocular disease; whether through residency or a good school. A "golden age" doc (I guess that is me) will demand that you can keep up in our niche of practice.
2) Strategic about where they decide to lay their roots....I moved 1700 miles from my first job in FL to setup what I have now. It was done after spending most of a summer (on vacation, needed something to work on!) looking for a place that would provide a good patient base, relatively low competition, and of course somewhere I wanted to live. If you are the "I want to practice within a 10 mile radius of the house I grew up in", you are likely to flounder.
3) "Be the bartender" --- this was a line from the first doc I ever worked for, about 20 years ago in high school. He told me once that the best training he ever had for being an OD was being a bartender for a few years in college. In other words, you have to be able to adjust to patients and for them to see your empathy immediately. This is very much an X factor, and I would say it is one of the hardest traits to find. When I hired a new grad 2 years ago, I brought in over 20 docs. I picked him because of his disease acumen, but also largely due to his attitude toward patients....Yesterday I had 3 families coming in from 60 miles or more away to see him. I think we (my partner was his biggest advocate)picked a good one!
4) BUSINESS SENSE....I won't elaborate here because it isn't necessary. This is an absolute must.

With all of this said, I would be the very first person to tell you that it is rough for new grads out there, overall. There are some VERY big caveats to this, but if I want to charlatan it up I can make that statement with some confidence. Now, I am of the opinion that the dynamics of this will be different within 5-10 years. The number of retiring OD's will be huge in that time, especially if there economy improves. (That is the elephant in the room in the "oversupply" problem. If you see 2 straight years of 401k gains, the number of older docs walking away with their nest eggs will be huge. Any older doc I speak to won't shut up about this effect so I thought I would say it here) Also, certain parts of the country are likely to see the thrush of 30 million new Americans...so for me, any discussion of "oversupply" MUST be discussed locally. Anyone that acts as if EVERYWHERE is experiencing the same economic factors does not get it, in my opinion.

So yes, there is way too much entitlement and lack of understanding of the profession in new grads. This comes from an institutionalized "sunny talk" that we are famous for, and many have and do speak of it more intelligently. (I've been out for too long to act as if I am still on the pulse of it, and I recognize that!) Do not mistake my "if you can accept this" optimism for "everything is awesome". Yes, there are huge problems, and the people that don't recognize the above "list" have a very hard bottom that I believe did NOT exist when I graduated....in other words, the naive OD that is hugely in debt, wants to live in a certain area, has a normal disease education, is not Cedric the Entertainer for his/her patients, does not have Mr Buffett business sense, etc; this person has a much harder couple of years to start than grads did when I went through. THAT much I do know....but I also see many that succeed from the start, are more strategic, etc. I would argue that this polarization is at least 50% due to the very different national economic situation of the mid-90's vs right now, and that any 100% attribution to the "big 3" (oversupply, managed care, laws) is short-sighted on the history of our so called "golden age" that I was a part of.

So, if you are a new grad or a pre-op, it CAN be very hard out there for the next 5 years or so. You will have to beat the pack to do well at age 30, and the bottom is very hard right now...so yes, in a way I believe you are both right...just my two cents 🙂
 
I personally think the term "optometrist" is antiquated and therefore ODs do not get an accurate public perception. ODs do not just "measure vision". Some ODs have tried to use the term "optometric physician" to refer to themselves but I personally believe "Oculus Doctor" would be most accurate. And it fits in order with the letters OD, unlike "Doctor of Optometry".

Except that nobody really knows what "Optometrist" really means. I highly doubt that someone would google search "Optometrist" and based upon the wikipedia defintion would decide to not see an OD. Does anybody bat an eye over seeing a DDS vs. DMD?

I think that changing the titles would just create more confusion.
 
I don't mean to be rude, but why do you refer to the profession as "our" profession? I just find this recent attitude of pre-optometry students who think they know it all and are part of something they have yet to earn.

Optometry isn't really the Marines or a fraternity that you have to be initiated into. None of us claim to know everything, I will be the first to tell you that I know about as much as a 2nd grader. However, we know a bit and a few of the challenges that allowed us to decide it was the direction we wanted to take for "our" careers.

You just don't want to believe what we have to say b/c it is contrary to what you might think and we don't have a few letters behind our name to authoritate our statements even if we learned it from an OD themselves.
 
So yes, there is way too much entitlement and lack of understanding of the profession in new grads. This comes from an institutionalized "sunny talk" that we are famous for, and many have and do speak of it more intelligently. (I've been out for too long to act as if I am still on the pulse of it, and I recognize that!) Do not mistake my "if you can accept this" optimism for "everything is awesome". Yes, there are huge problems, and the people that don't recognize the above "list" have a very hard bottom that I believe did NOT exist when I graduated....in other words, the naive OD that is hugely in debt, wants to live in a certain area, has a normal disease education, is not Cedric the Entertainer for his/her patients, does not have Mr Buffett business sense, etc; this person has a much harder couple of years to start than grads did when I went through.

So well said.

I'm sure you've had plenty of applications come across your desk; have you noticed a horrible decline in writing ability and grammar in this era?
 
What all of this means is that a graduating OD must be all of the following:
1) Very fluent in ocular disease; whether through residency or a good school. A "golden age" doc (I guess that is me) will demand that you can keep up in our niche of practice.

I am curious about practice management in this area. If you are a practicing doctor, how much can you really bill medically. I have heard arguments on both sides. Some say that billing medically is what their practice thrives on, others say it the reimbursement rates are so low its not worth their time (or several other negative reactions to medically based optometry secondary to insurance discrimination) The "golden age OD" I work for right now always refers glaucoma cases out; (however he is practicing in california and is also more concerned with neuro optometry amongst other things) Yes it isn't JUST about money, I get that 🙂, just curious about the challenge of integrating medical optometry into one's practice.
 
What all of this means is that a graduating OD must be all of the following:
1) Very fluent in ocular disease; whether through residency or a good school. A "golden age" doc (I guess that is me) will demand that you can keep up in our niche of practice.

I am curious about practice management in this area. If you are a practicing doctor, how much can you really bill medically. I have heard arguments on both sides. Some say that billing medically is what their practice thrives on, others say it the reimbursement rates are so low its not worth their time (or several other negative reactions to medically based optometry secondary to insurance discrimination) The "golden age OD" I work for right now always refers glaucoma cases out; (however he is practicing in california and is also more concerned with neuro optometry amongst other things) Yes it isn't JUST about money, I get that 🙂, just curious about the challenge of integrating medical optometry into one's practice.

It's not hard at all.

1) Bring in the needed equipment
2) Stop referring out stuff you don't need to
3) Bill for it
4) Get paid for it.
 
I used the phrase "our profession" because this is what I have decided to do with my life and I have never backed out of anything big as of yet, never failed a class or dropped one for example. Of course I know less than most of the people on these forums but I feel I know enough to comment. Also I learn very much by people debating with me.
 
In regards to Indiana OD and Princeod

I apologize for the ambiguity here, but I actually agree with both of you. This is not an "either/or" argument. Here it is, in my opinion:

Regarding the posting above, I would say that there is a HUGE aura of entitlement to a lot of the young docs that I know. A lot of them are under the impression that we are like dermatologists: I.E. You get out of school (actually a residency), walk directly into an offer, sign on a dotted line, and start making 6 figures. You can (and some are, I promise) be repugnant to most of your patients, have very little business sense, move to roughly an area you want, etc, and none of this will change your supply of patients.....as I say to young docs, "Most MD's get their patients by referral. You have to get them by choice alone."

What all of this means is that a graduating OD must be all of the following:
1) Very fluent in ocular disease; whether through residency or a good school. A "golden age" doc (I guess that is me) will demand that you can keep up in our niche of practice.
2) Strategic about where they decide to lay their roots....I moved 1700 miles from my first job in FL to setup what I have now. It was done after spending most of a summer (on vacation, needed something to work on!) looking for a place that would provide a good patient base, relatively low competition, and of course somewhere I wanted to live. If you are the "I want to practice within a 10 mile radius of the house I grew up in", you are likely to flounder.
3) "Be the bartender" --- this was a line from the first doc I ever worked for, about 20 years ago in high school. He told me once that the best training he ever had for being an OD was being a bartender for a few years in college. In other words, you have to be able to adjust to patients and for them to see your empathy immediately. This is very much an X factor, and I would say it is one of the hardest traits to find. When I hired a new grad 2 years ago, I brought in over 20 docs. I picked him because of his disease acumen, but also largely due to his attitude toward patients....Yesterday I had 3 families coming in from 60 miles or more away to see him. I think we (my partner was his biggest advocate)picked a good one!
4) BUSINESS SENSE....I won't elaborate here because it isn't necessary. This is an absolute must.

With all of this said, I would be the very first person to tell you that it is rough for new grads out there, overall. There are some VERY big caveats to this, but if I want to charlatan it up I can make that statement with some confidence. Now, I am of the opinion that the dynamics of this will be different within 5-10 years. The number of retiring OD's will be huge in that time, especially if there economy improves. (That is the elephant in the room in the "oversupply" problem. If you see 2 straight years of 401k gains, the number of older docs walking away with their nest eggs will be huge. Any older doc I speak to won't shut up about this effect so I thought I would say it here) Also, certain parts of the country are likely to see the thrush of 30 million new Americans...so for me, any discussion of "oversupply" MUST be discussed locally. Anyone that acts as if EVERYWHERE is experiencing the same economic factors does not get it, in my opinion.

So yes, there is way too much entitlement and lack of understanding of the profession in new grads. This comes from an institutionalized "sunny talk" that we are famous for, and many have and do speak of it more intelligently. (I've been out for too long to act as if I am still on the pulse of it, and I recognize that!) Do not mistake my "if you can accept this" optimism for "everything is awesome". Yes, there are huge problems, and the people that don't recognize the above "list" have a very hard bottom that I believe did NOT exist when I graduated....in other words, the naive OD that is hugely in debt, wants to live in a certain area, has a normal disease education, is not Cedric the Entertainer for his/her patients, does not have Mr Buffett business sense, etc; this person has a much harder couple of years to start than grads did when I went through. THAT much I do know....but I also see many that succeed from the start, are more strategic, etc. I would argue that this polarization is at least 50% due to the very different national economic situation of the mid-90's vs right now, and that any 100% attribution to the "big 3" (oversupply, managed care, laws) is short-sighted on the history of our so called "golden age" that I was a part of.

So, if you are a new grad or a pre-op, it CAN be very hard out there for the next 5 years or so. You will have to beat the pack to do well at age 30, and the bottom is very hard right now...so yes, in a way I believe you are both right...just my two cents 🙂


So essentially you are saying that a certain percentage will be fine but another significant percent of grads will have a rough go? The problem I see becoming even more troubling is that the latter population is growing at a rapid pace. I think that should be concerning to any prospective student.
 
this sounds awefully negative. What other profession allows the combination of lifestyle, income, seeing interesting stuff, spending time with people. I would not change my profession, I am having too much fun.
 
So, I may have skimmed over a lot of that 5 pages worth of reading... but as soon as I saw this post I thought to myself "who the hell has 200k in loans for 4 years in optometry school"

I plan on getting out for half of that...correct me if I'm wrong...
 
So, I may have skimmed over a lot of that 5 pages worth of reading... but as soon as I saw this post I thought to myself "who the hell has 200k in loans for 4 years in optometry school"

I plan on getting out for half of that...correct me if I'm wrong...

That figure comes from living cost + tuition. 200k is still probably NOT the average.
 
If you are going into optometry with 200k worth of loans then that'll turn into ~450k by the time you pay it back depending on your repayment methods. I feel really sorry for your financial imprudence and have fun at walmart. lol jk
 
I mean it could be worse I guess. The highest tuition optometry school is around $33,000 a year?

Look at NYU Dental: http://www.nyu.edu/dental/financialservices/tuitionfeesexpensesdds.html
$60,000 a year JUST for tuition.

Or how about University of the Pacific, Arthur A. Dugoni School of Dentistry in San Francisco, CA: http://dental.pacific.edu/x1284.xml
$85,000 a year. (Granted this is a 3-year program)

omg-wtf-funny-picture.jpg




Looks like Jason K really hit it on the head.

The US government came in, subsidized the student loan industry allowing anyone with an 18 year-old birth certificate and a pulse to borrow tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars without any regard for how they intended to pay it back. Private learning institutions responded to this federal subsidy by raising tuition, then raising it some more, and then raising it some more. Why not? People will just effortlessly borrow more to pay for the added cost of tuition, right? Unlce Sam is lending without restriction so everyone line up for your higher education expenses, and when we say higher we mean "higher!" And now, a B.S. costs 120K when it used to cost a couple of thousand. Graduate degrees are even more expensive.
 
I've just read through this very long thread. It does seem there are alot of dissatisfied OD's. And of course there are many happy ones (somewhere).

After much reflection, I do believe it takes a special type of personality to enjoy optometry. If you are the type of person that would do well putting widgets together on an assemby line for 8 hours per day for an entire 40 year career.......you'll probably enjoy optometry. Because it takes about the same day-to-day brain power (after you've mastered it all, that is) and it's about the same excitement level.

I believe the gung-ho OD types have this personality. The kind that are just 'happy-go-lucky' no matter what. Combine that personality with one that can 'sell ice to an eskimo' and you have the makings of a very succesful optometrist. Of course if you have that type personality, you'll probably be successful doing most anything. Life can't hold you back.

Now the problem is, many of us don't exactly know what type we are before graduating OD school or that it takes this personality, (maybe the OAT should have a personality test as a pre-screener). And at the point of graduation, there is no turning back. 8 years and $150,000 sorta cements our destiny for a while.

MDs have some leeway-- more than a few lateral and upward options. Even attorneys (I'm too honest to be one) have more options. Many start off low but they can work their way all the way up to MSNBC and Fox news consultants desk or maybe hit it big on t.v. with a crime show. MDs can sell out like Dr. Drew or move into other 'high' positions. You never seen on OD on a t.v. show or in a high govt-appointed position?

Optometrists are optometrists from day one till day 1,000,0000,0000 with the exact same job and for the most part, the exact same pay.

Yep. Chronically happy-go-lucky + Ability to sell ice to an eskimo = # 1 Happy Optometrist

:laugh:
 
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After much reflection, I do believe it takes a special type of personality to enjoy optometry. If you are the type of person that would do well putting widgets together on an assemby line for 8 hours per day for an entire 40 year career.......you'll probably enjoy optometry. Because it takes about the same day-to-day brain power (after you've mastered it all, that is) and it's about the same excitement level.

Yep. Chronically happy-go-lucky + Ability to sell ice to an eskimo = # 1 Happy Optometrist

:laugh:

Well, I don't know about that. You can say that about any job.

How exciting is it to pilot a 747? Just point it in the right direction, push the button and the plane flies itself.

How about being a rock star? That's gotta be exciting, right?

I saw an interview with Billy Joel of all people a few years back and the person doing the interview asked him if he ever got bored singing Piano Man to which Joel replied, "of course! All the time."

The interviewer was incredulous. How could that be?

Joel said that he figures he sung it probably 12000 times in his career and frequently closed the show with it so he often would fantasize about room service. He recited a conversation he frequently has with himself while playing in front of 50,000 people.

"And he's talking to Davey....who's still in the Navy"
*** Gee, I wonder if they have hamburgers for room service***

"And probably will be for life."
*** I hope the fries are those big steak fries, not the skinny McDonalds kind."

"SING US A SONG....YOU'RE THE PIANO MAN."

Of course, when Joel is telling the story it sounds funny because he's a funny guy but when you think about it....he's phoning it in for many people, many of whom have paid over $100 a ticket.


I also recall an interview with Springsteen who was asked if he ever got tired of singing Born To Run. Springsteen laughed and said "never." When asked why not, Springsteen recalled an interview that he had seen with Tony Bennett who was asked if he got tired of singing I Left My Heart in San Francisco. Bennett said "never" because the song "gave him the world." Springsteen said he adopted the same attitude towards Born To Run. It gave him the world. So he always put as much effort into as he could for the fans who came to see him sing it.

So I guess it's all about attitude towards your job.
 
So I guess it's all about attitude towards your job.

Yep. Tha'ts pretty much what I said. But are you really comparing us to world-famous multimillion dollar singing stars? 😀

I guess my point is that you don't really KNOW if you will like optometry (or anything else really) until you actually 'live it' for a while. (as in your example, the airline pilot will have flown thousands of hours and many years before he gets his airline wings).

But most things in life, you can try it without penalty (an 8 year, $150,000+ penalty). Not much chance of lateral or upward movement. What you do your first day of practice is what you will doing 10, 20. probably 30 years later.
 
Yep. Tha'ts pretty much what I said. But are you really comparing us to world-famous multimillion dollar singing stars? 😀

I guess my point is that you don't really KNOW if you will like optometry (or anything else really) until you actually 'live it' for a while.

But most things in life, you can try it without penalty (an 8 year, $150,000+ penalty). When you graduate, your primary job will be refracting people. Period. No chance of lateral or upward movement.

That's largely true. That's why I've always said that your success in optometry has little to do with "what you make of it."

Your success depends on how well you can handle what it makes of YOU.
 
I agree that its all about your attitude towards your job. You have to really be a people person if you want to be any kind of good clinician. As an ophthalmic technician for a retinologist, I checked BCVA, eye pressure and administered proparacaine, phenylephrine and tropicamide about 2000 times in my 6 month of working. Does it get boring? Sure, but what I enjoy most is that people are grateful to you and you have that doctor-patient trusting relationship even as a tech. You have some really good conversations with people and they aren't really mean/nasty to you. You get used to doing all the mundane tasks anyway, at least I did.

If you require constant novelty in your job don't become an optometrist. Go do research. It is always new by definition.
 
get married and have a second income. problem solved. lol.
 
I agree that its all about your attitude towards your job. You have to really be a people person if you want to be any kind of good clinician. As an ophthalmic technician for a retinologist, I checked BCVA, eye pressure and administered proparacaine, phenylephrine and tropicamide about 2000 times in my 6 month of working. Does it get boring? Sure, but what I enjoy most is that people are grateful to you and you have that doctor-patient trusting relationship even as a tech. You have some really good conversations with people and they aren't really mean/nasty to you. You get used to doing all the mundane tasks anyway, at least I did.

If you require constant novelty in your job don't become an optometrist. Go do research. It is always new by definition.

I agree. If someone is seeking the "Px's coding, defib, push 10 of epi" scene, then obviously optometry or ophthalmology for that matter is not the right choice. Maybe an ER doctor or trauma surgeon working the fields of Iraq is a better match!
 
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