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I am curious, what lies were you told?
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Regretting optometry after I think of this....
Started by Princeod2583
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I am curious, what lies were you told?
That you would graduate and have a huge income and an amazing private practice waiting for you. That ODs are all friendly colleagues that sit around playing cumbya (sp?) and refer their patients to each other. That patients will be beating down your door to have you treating all kinds of sexy eye diseases.
That pretty much sums it up! 😀
Reality is the opposite for many, many (if not most) new grads.
Ok, I think we all need to calm down:
1) Unemployment rate is f******* 9.8%. That's 9.8% of 300 million people in our country that is making $0 dollars.
2) Law school students who owe $200k+ in loans and graduating from the top college in the country is making $15/hr because they can't find a f****** job. That's an unemployment rate of 100%. Oh btw, the creditors are chasing them and they don't know what to do.
3) Did you know that people in Egypt, with a f****** civil war going on is starving? They walk miles and ride on camels to fight for what they want.
4) My parents make $20k/year, went through a f****** war and was able to put 5 kids through college and be happy.
So please don't complain about your $80k/year salary because it makes other optometry students like myself unhappy; like my friend who told me about this forum and is sad about it because he's read one too many negative thread and made me come here. I'm sorry for the language.
Cheers all!
1) Unemployment rate is f******* 9.8%. That's 9.8% of 300 million people in our country that is making $0 dollars.
2) Law school students who owe $200k+ in loans and graduating from the top college in the country is making $15/hr because they can't find a f****** job. That's an unemployment rate of 100%. Oh btw, the creditors are chasing them and they don't know what to do.
3) Did you know that people in Egypt, with a f****** civil war going on is starving? They walk miles and ride on camels to fight for what they want.
4) My parents make $20k/year, went through a f****** war and was able to put 5 kids through college and be happy.
So please don't complain about your $80k/year salary because it makes other optometry students like myself unhappy; like my friend who told me about this forum and is sad about it because he's read one too many negative thread and made me come here. I'm sorry for the language.
Cheers all!
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Why don't you actually read the thread before stating your ridiculous reasons as to why 80k/year is good income for an OD. I am sure some responses will change your opinions re: optometry.
Well, I mean it is/was pretty obvious what is/was wrong with Optometry, regardless of what the AOA/schools tell you.
It should be obvious that schools are open to only accept profits; now whether they do this by lying, manipulating facts etc etc, is up to the applicant to decipher. A current example, and an ongoing issue in Optometry that exemplifies this profit making scheme is board certification for OD's.
It's sad that (some) OD's are still clueless about their organizations and continue to buy into the lies that their leaders spit out. But that's another issue, for another thread!
You got it all wrong. How can you compare unemployment rates and world politics/personal situations to what a school and profession promises you. If you go through a 200k education and 4 years of schooling, you should not have to settle for JUST Having a job, let alone a salary that is lower than advertised. IF a website tells you that the median salary of the Average optometrist is 96,000 then you should explain exactly what it takes to get that salary and how realistic it is to obtain that salary in the current economic client. The stats on these websites are skewed to catch your attention, gain your interest, and ultimately, your enrollment.
Why do you think lawyers are stuck in the situation you describe above. It probably tells you lawyers make x amount of dollars. What the statistics don't tell you is that a good number of lawyers are coming out of school with no jobs or underpaying jobs. The underpaid, who are waiting tables, are still being included as students that are "employed" even though its not in the same field that they racked up 200k in educational debt. You mean to tell me that its ok for optometry schools/AOA to report skewed, misleading statistics so as long as you get paid a salary? A salary that takes seeing 40 patients a day in a corporate setting to earn because corporate is the easiest job to obtain when graduating school? No one talks about these issues til you graduate. 👎
There is no way that's true. I'm a medical resident, so there shouldn't be an OD alive who works full time making less than I do. My yearly take home pay, after federal/state/FICA taxes is a little over twice what you're quoting up there, and resident pay is hovering right around 48-50k these days.
Are you kidding me? What other degree or career path allows people to graduate and immediately, after all other expenses are paid have $1000-$1500 per month to just piss away?
Are you even IN optometry school?
We're not. I added in FICA and State in come taxes. If you're self employed, you don't pay an extra 15%, you pay an extra 7.5% but you deduct half of that so it's really less than that.
The point is not who's right down to the penny. It's that socal is a ***** who clearly has absolutely no clue what he's talking about about pretty much ANYTHING. It's not that often that someone comes along on an internet forum who actually has less than zero to contribute but he's filled that role magnificently.
Megaton was doing it on purpose, haha. Probably time to close this baby down.
I preferred Optimus Prime.
This post hit the nail on the head! I understand that there are many in more dire situations than me, but as this post stated, we should NOT have to settle for less; way less...
In school the professors despised commercial practices and made it seem like only the meek & weak take this route. I was shown graph upon graph showing that ODs start at $95-$120K easy and only go up from there. And the ophthalmologists were the enemy, etc etc....But how can you blame someone for turning down a $100K+ with full benefits, paid holidays etc, over $75-$80K with bare bone benefits and not a guarantee of partnership in the owner's mind?
The AOA is forcing young ODs into a fast burnout career in commercial, which I highly doubt they ever though they would have to settle for. I personally did not study EKGs, stomach medicines, CT/MRIs etc, all just to make $80K starting. A nurse makes that and more, minus the $200K debt!
As with Tunisia & Egypt, things have to change, or else this profession will continue to only spiral down.
Very well said.
The education system in general at almost every level is broken. A Bachelors is the new HS diploma.
One thing I was burnin' on the other day was how out of touch the optometry schools are with some of the pre-reqs. I honestly added just over a semester of classes to my Physiology and Developmental Biology degree so I could take Psychology, Calculus, and a few others b/c they needed to prepare me. Yep...don't remember much of any of those pre-reqs.
More like 8 years of schooling.
Why are we even bringing in non-health professions? If you wanna get comparative, look at pharmacy and dentistry, which of course have flaws of their own.
As a pharmacist I can finish school quicker, probably be in less debt after I graduate, and receive a guaranteed 6 figure salary without all the hassles of dealing with insurances, opticians or OMD's. In addition, I will also receive benefits, that OD's don't receive as they are primarily independent contractors. Dentistry is bascially the same thing, however a dentist would only need to work 3-4 days to make the equivalent of an OD who works 5-6 days per week.
I find it hilarious that only OD's who have their own practices, are the ones promoting Optometry as a good profession, when the facts and figures state the complete opposite. So far only a few posters have posted the realities of Optometry, while others are in denial or are clueless.
Isn't it ironic that virtually all new grads have nothing but negative experiences in this profession after they graduate?
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Last time I checked, we live in the good old USA where we have choices. So nobody at the AOA is forcing anyone to do anything. Make your choices and live with them.
My wife is an ICU nurse. They are lucky to make $50K in most states. I would love to see factual evidence of nurses making $80K.
This profession will not spiral down. If you pay $200K for your education and have to pay it off after school, consider that your best ever investment. It allows you to practice the profession you chose. However, if your attitude is like the poster's, then you might want to take a different path. If you do not like the idea of taking care of people for a living, please do not stay in health care.
Speaking from experience of graduating with a lot of debt, if you get serious about paying it down and make some tough choices early on, instead of buying that new car and traveling the world, you can do fine. My wife and I paid down $90k in two years by following some very simple principles we learned from Dave Ramsey at his Financial Peace University. I do not care if you learn it from there or some other resource like Clark Howard, but there are plenty of people telling you to get out of debt as soon as possible.
Don't let the numbers get you guys down. If you enjoy what you do in this profession, you will be better off than probably 60% of the people I see as patients that are ho-hum about their job and the future in their job. If you do not like the idea of practicing optometry, find something you can be passionate about and get after it!
I LOVE LOVE LOVE Dave Ramsey. If you haven't listened to his show there are a whole lot of people who have a debt/income ratio that is UNBELIEVABLE and they get it all paid off crazy fast. I'm glad you brought him up b/c I've been saying that to myself through many a post that talk about the debt.
First, that Ramsey guy is a joke. And LOL at a financial peace university.....LOL.
On a more serious note, while I am sure the OP doesn't need me to defend himself/herself, the type of attitude the OP developed is a product of the lies they were told before attending school and the awful experiences they might have had along the way, and even now if they are practicing Optometry.
You are bound to be pissed if the AOA tells you that you will make upwards of $150,000 per year whilst being treated like a doctor, but in reality you end up making much less and are treated like a prostitute.
An excerpt from another thread:
"I filled in for a friend at Walmart and Sam's Club. Wow.. What an experience.. I did feel like I was a 'PROSTITUTE'. That is not what my profession was supposed to be. Patients attitude said it all. They came in with the same attitude as entering the Nail/Hair Salon next door. Their attitude was "Can you quickly rotate some dials and give me a new pair of glasses??" Holy $$$hhhiiiittt.. 😡 Dammmnn it.."
Instead of blaming the OP/individuals, maybe look at the profession.
Except he would tell you not to go to optometry school unless you can pay for it in cash. Good luck with that!
Yeah.. I love Ramsey and I would totally do things his way if I could. Too bad I don't have 100,000 bucks to spare for my education.......................
Have any of you guys practicing optometry ever use the machine Quantify or something like that? It's a machine that tests for macular degeneration, and then if a patient scores low they are given supplements. From what I understand it's only at select Lenscrafters and no where else.
I am sorry you feel that way about Dave Ramsey. I am not trying to sell anyone on the guy but am curious what makes you say that he is a joke. What experience have you had working with Dave Ramsey that made you feel that way? Can you share that with the forum? I obviously have had a very different personal experience with him that I think is valid when we are constantly discussing the debt load of optometry or any other kind of student once they become a doctor. Please share.
Understand that I am not attacking the OP in regards to his attitude but just stating that continuing to have a poor attitude is not going to get you anywhere. People who spend time blaming the AOA, Wal-Mart, retail optometry or 1-800 contacts are missing the point. Any business you go into there is some risk. If you are fortunate to have someone pay for your school then great. If you have to pay your own way through loans and debt then you should be that much more hungry to do the best you can at your profession so that you can pay off those loans and get on the plus side of things.
As far as feeling like a prostitute at Wal-Mart, I know lots of great doctors that work in retail settings just like I know those in private settings. The opposite is true as well. There are plenty of lousy docs in private practice, we just do not talk about them as much. Maybe the person feeling like a prostitute is not focused on what it means to be an eye care provider. The people I know that are happy taking good care of patients and improving their lives while making a decent salary are doing just fine.
Continuing to whine and complain is useless IMHO
That is actually incorrect if you have ever listened to him, though if you want a solid investment choose dentistry.
Have listened to him. Attended the stupid class. Don't appreciate most of what he has to say (from the faith perspective he claims to speak). But that is a discussion for another board.
I forgot to address this as well. The AOA is just reporting the statistics that are out there for anyone to see. I have seen the same numbers at the CIBA MBA program and the Vistakon Vision Care Institute. They are real numbers because they are attainable. I would be surprised if anyone could make that their first year of school or even for the first few years. However, if you find a job with the right type of practice where you can start with a base pay and get increases based on how you grow your practice (because you are paid a percentage of what you produce for the practice) then it is definitely do-able.
Those practices are all across the country and I meet twice a year with other doctors that are looking for the best and brightest to come work for them in those exact environments. I can tell you that none of them would hire someone with the attitude that everyone else is to blame for your misfortune. The best thing you can do is either get over the blame game and decide you are going to be successful, find another career that you can embrace while it is still early enough in your lifetime or be content with being mediocre and upset at the world.
In regards to Ramsey, I think that topic should be discussed on other forums/threads pertaining to finance. I do have many things to say about Ramsey, but it just would not be appropriate to disclose certain revelations on these forums.
The income survey that you are referring to is not exactly an income survey. What the AOA has done is asked only those doc's who have been practicing Optometry for more than a decade, or near this amount. Obviously, the longer you are established, the higher your income should be, but the AOA presents this inflated figure to students as if its the AVERAGE income of ALL OD's. It is highly deceptive and the schools just play along, as every student, with the exception of a couple on scholarships, collectively, generate millions of dollars for the school. But, I do agree, there are opportunities to make AOA quoted figures, but, in this day and age, one would have to make it on his/her own.
ICs have access to much more in terms of write-offs than employees do. If you are an IC, start a PLLC and you are now the sole-proprietor of a small business. I had $38k in write-offs this year from IC work. On the flip side, you have to pay self employment taxes, etc.
Isn't tuition tax deductible?
24K is WAY too much for Federal taxes. But again, I'm used to being self-employed so ... Hmmm.
If your TAXABLE income can be reduced to about 35K, your federal tax should be under 10K and I would think that your loan payments should do it? I think they'd be taken off under itemized deductions, not Schedule C.
Because, any amount you pay in tuition is deductible ... so ... the part of your student loan that went toward tuition should be deductible? You might be able to do it retroactively. You should talk to a tax person.
I really do think that 24K for federal tax is WAY too much. I've made gross of about 80K before as self-employed and I NEVER paid more than 14K because I made good use of the Schedule C and the 179C deductions. The amount you pay really all depends on your taxable income. The more you have to itemize, deduct, the lower it is. Also, max out your SEP/IRA. For traditional IRA you can whack of 5K minimum, for SEP/IRA you can whack of a % of your income. That also comes right off the top.
HEY ... any equipment you bought can come off on the 179C deduction, I do believe. At the very least, it can be amortized and that can be done retroactively.
TALK TO A TAX SPECIALIST!
24K is WAY too much for Federal taxes. But again, I'm used to being self-employed so ... Hmmm.
If your TAXABLE income can be reduced to about 35K, your federal tax should be under 10K and I would think that your loan payments should do it? I think they'd be taken off under itemized deductions, not Schedule C.
Because, any amount you pay in tuition is deductible ... so ... the part of your student loan that went toward tuition should be deductible? You might be able to do it retroactively. You should talk to a tax person.
I really do think that 24K for federal tax is WAY too much. I've made gross of about 80K before as self-employed and I NEVER paid more than 14K because I made good use of the Schedule C and the 179C deductions. The amount you pay really all depends on your taxable income. The more you have to itemize, deduct, the lower it is. Also, max out your SEP/IRA. For traditional IRA you can whack of 5K minimum, for SEP/IRA you can whack of a % of your income. That also comes right off the top.
HEY ... any equipment you bought can come off on the 179C deduction, I do believe. At the very least, it can be amortized and that can be done retroactively.
TALK TO A TAX SPECIALIST!
your tuition fetches you a credit through the education credit (specifically the Lifetime Learning credit), which will give you a max of $2000 worth of credit per return.
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The majority of the country would be ecstatic to have 10-15k to "play" with each year.
You guys ever consider Air Force optometry?
Don't have to worry about running your own business.
Never pressured to sell glasses or contacts because the Airmen get them for "free".
Pay, housing, and benefits are great.
Salary eventually surpasses 6 figures.
Very low risk of bodily harm compared to Army.
You just have to be willing to move to a new state/country every few years.
No, I am not a recruiter. I am an Army veteran.
Oh and my number one rule for getting rich..... Never get married or have kids.
Don't have to worry about running your own business.
Never pressured to sell glasses or contacts because the Airmen get them for "free".
Pay, housing, and benefits are great.
Salary eventually surpasses 6 figures.
Very low risk of bodily harm compared to Army.
You just have to be willing to move to a new state/country every few years.
No, I am not a recruiter. I am an Army veteran.
Oh and my number one rule for getting rich..... Never get married or have kids.
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I was very close to accepting a Navy scholarship. I talked to several Naval ODs and worked with several VA ODs who were previously Army and Air Force ODs. The consensus was the VA is a much better gig.
I just wanted to add that the majority of the country doesn't go through 8 years of school + lots of school debt, so you can't really compare the average citizen to a doctorate level student.
Good to know.
True, but then the average citizen spends more than they earn and builds a huge credit card debt. It all comes down to being frugal. Be frugal, pay off your credit cards, and then buy good stocks using a discount online broker.
Yes, but as a college degree becomes the new HS diploma there will be a ton of people that have gone to 4-years.
With the median household income (HOUSEHOLD: more than one person potentially working) in the US at about 50k/year you will far out earn that in your lifetime even after paying your debt off (whatever amount it may be). This degree can put you close to if not over 100k/year after a few years which will put you personally in the top 15% of household income.
US Census: Household income in USA
Dude 2011 & thecgrblue,
What is your point?
The income of a general citizen is lower than an OD's because the citizen has not received higher education.
All I was saying is that you cannot compare a citizen to an OD, based on income levels and debt. The OD spends nearly a decade in higher education and takes on more debt in a short period of time, than the average citizen...wouldn't you agree?
Hypothetically, if an OD earns $15,000-$20,000 more than the average citizen, then, it is due to higher education. But, is it worth it to spend roughly 8 years in school and rack up school debt, for an additional $15-20,000 a year? I don't know...I would not really mind, but, it is kind of shocking what an additional 1-8 years in schooling can get you in the real world.
Reading over this thread, I feel I have more knowledge of what I might get myself into by going to Optometry school. Optometry school definitely seems more questionable when you examine and compare income levels - but its not all about the money, as most would agree.
What is your point?
The income of a general citizen is lower than an OD's because the citizen has not received higher education.
All I was saying is that you cannot compare a citizen to an OD, based on income levels and debt. The OD spends nearly a decade in higher education and takes on more debt in a short period of time, than the average citizen...wouldn't you agree?
Hypothetically, if an OD earns $15,000-$20,000 more than the average citizen, then, it is due to higher education. But, is it worth it to spend roughly 8 years in school and rack up school debt, for an additional $15-20,000 a year? I don't know...I would not really mind, but, it is kind of shocking what an additional 1-8 years in schooling can get you in the real world.
Reading over this thread, I feel I have more knowledge of what I might get myself into by going to Optometry school. Optometry school definitely seems more questionable when you examine and compare income levels - but its not all about the money, as most would agree.
Truer words have never been spoken. A wife isn't so bad, but kids are the worst.
I would agree with you. Optometry is one of those careers that you should only pursue because you think you will enjoy it.
A registered nurse in California with just an associates degree earns $90,000 year. And there are nurses who specialize in eye surgery (assisting surgeons of course).
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A wife isn't so expensive..... until she divorces you. The average marriage lasts only 7 years. I'm not trying to be cynical. Just realistic.
Obviously. Why would you go into a career that you didn't think you'd enjoy?
California is a terrible place to cite for salaries unless you're planning on living there. Everybody knows the salaries are bloated there to compensate for the absurd cost of living.
Of course you can compare the two. Why do you go to college? Because you compared how your life would be without school vs. going to college and realized that the time invested in yourself has potential to give large return on investments.
Central valley of California has low cost of living and high salaries for health careers. And in most states in the USA, nurses make good money.
My sister is a nurse in my current city. She makes around 44k. Nowhere close to 90k.
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This job pays up to $125,000 and requires just an associates degree in nursing:
http://1.usa.gov/hNemZz
This job pays up to $116,000 and requires just an associates degree in nursing:
http://1.usa.gov/ghjKAn
This job pays up to $117,000 and requires just an associates degree in nursing:
http://1.usa.gov/fOVOBG
I can find hundreds of other high paying nursing jobs.
Meanwhile, the same website pays only for an $75,000 for an optometrist. That's totally unfair in my opinion....
http://1.usa.gov/dY1Mma
NC2tarheel, here's a nursing job in North Carolina that pays up to $82,000:
http://1.usa.gov/gi07Lr
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Job 1: Clinical Nurse Specialist is a Masters or at times Doctorate degree
Job 2: Says it prefers a nurse with a BSN with at least 2 years of open-heart surgery experience
Job 3: Prefers as BSN and 3-4 years Med/Surgical experience as well as other case management experience
Job 4: IHS Optometry jobs include tuition reimbursements up to 20k/year on top of your salary. Plus who would want to live in Fort Thompson, SD?
Job 5: Clinical Nurse with the ARMY. Also requiring additional years of experience beyond school.
Most of the nursing jobs have a $40k difference between the salary you write and the baseline salary.
So what's your point? You want to be a nurse? Or are you Socal with a new screen name?
How much do you see a private practice nurse earning? Oh...right.
If he thinks being a nurse is so great......go do it.
Life isn't fair and if you think the pay is unfair, quit looking at different occupations that have a demand for their job. You're comparing apples and oranges. I have a friend that is a financial advisor with NO DEGREE. He makes 6 figures. Is that fair to me? No. Do I b!tch and complain about it? No. I wanna work with eyes, it's what I like. Is the pay justifiable to me? Yes. Do I wish it was more? Of course. But I'm not complaining about it every chance I get. If you dont like it....leave and do something else with your career.
PREFERS, not requires. Plus, a bachelors is a lot less work than a OD degree. Yes, it requires 2 years of experience. So what? While you get the experience in another job, you are being paid.
PREFERS, not requires. Plus, a bachelors is a lot less work than a OD degree. Yes, it requires 2 years of experience. So what? While you get the experience in another job, you are being paid.
Wrong. It is a CIVILIAN job working for the Army. No commitment. Read it again.
The baseline salary is still more than an optometrist salary.
You are being defensive. My point is that optometrists are way underpaid. Not sure why you are getting mad at me.
You never heard of nurse practitioners? They make up to $132,000. See ad....
http://1.usa.gov/eOobua
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quit being a douchebag. If you are pro-nurse....go be one. Don't start flame-wars.
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