Reply to Giles (Longish)

[pathognomonic]

Hi Giles (and anyone else who cares),

Overall I think going to vet school was a good thing and I enjoy being a veterinarian, but if I had it to do over I'd have gone to medical school.

Mixed animal good stuff - Driving all over the countryside gives you time to think and relax. You see all kinds of different things. I like working with horse owners (large generalization here) because they tend to be fairly compliant. They can be demanding, but that's ok. I also have an immediate "in" with them because I grew up showing horses and galloping Thoroughbreds at the local track.

Mixed animal bad stuff - The hours. Especialy in the summer 80-100 hours per week easy. On call. Palpating mares at 5 am stinks when you were treating a hit by car at midnight the night before. You are a jack of all trades, but a master of none - it's hard to stay current on everything in our field! Recovering a horse from general anesthesia in the field is dangerous...your only help will likely be a 12-year-old girl.

Things I have learned - If you want to do horse work, don't do ambulatory. It will burn you out. Get whatever additional training you need to be able to get a job in a hospital setting where you have staff, equipment and the ability to practice good medicine. Same is not true for bovine. Ambulatory bovine works well, mostly because of the herd health vs. individual animal emphasis. On call will make your life miserable. You live in fear of the pager or cell phone. If you have to take call, make sure it is no more than once per week, or negotiate to have the day post-call off (oh wait - they only do that for physicians )

More later - I have to take my baby to the doctor.

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[weeziefive]

Hi Giles (and anyone else who cares),

Overall I think going to vet school was a good thing and I enjoy being a veterinarian, but if I had it to do over I'd have gone to medical school.

Mixed animal good stuff - Driving all over the countryside gives you time to think and relax. You see all kinds of different things. I like working with horse owners (large generalization here) because they tend to be fairly compliant. They can be demanding, but that's ok. I also have an immediate "in" with them because I grew up showing horses and galloping Thoroughbreds at the local track.

Mixed animal bad stuff - The hours. Especialy in the summer 80-100 hours per week easy. On call. Palpating mares at 5 am stinks when you were treating a hit by car at midnight the night before. You are a jack of all trades, but a master of none - it's hard to stay current on everything in our field! Recovering a horse from general anesthesia in the field is dangerous...your only help will likely be a 12-year-old girl.

Things I have learned - If you want to do horse work, don't do ambulatory. It will burn you out. Get whatever additional training you need to be able to get a job in a hospital setting where you have staff, equipment and the ability to practice good medicine. Same is not true for bovine. Ambulatory bovine works well, mostly because of the herd health vs. individual animal emphasis. On call will make your life miserable. You live in fear of the pager or cell phone. If you have to take call, make sure it is no more than once per week, or negotiate to have the day post-call off (oh wait - they only do that for physicians )

More later - I have to take my baby to the doctor.

Even though I have just been accepted to veterinary school, I dont know if I have ever even thought about attending medical school. For myself, animals are so much more versatile. My interest lies in pathology and I am so intrigued by the differences within animals. From the digestive systems of chickens (which are awesome) to ruminants. And even though you will have several animals of which are ruminants you have differences among them such as cattle with 4 compartments to a llama with 3. Yeah, I know the money will not be that great, and the hours may not be that pleasant, but its worth it. And Im not saying the someday I wont change my mind. For that does happen. However, I look at the veterinary field and see the many different oppurtunities that await all of us and its exciting. Just my two cents.

 

[loo]

Thanks for your view, pathognomonic! Stupid question--but if you had gone to medical school instead of vet school, would you have specialized or not?

 

[giles]

Thanks for that, very interesting comments. If I had a $ for every time I've heard/seen a vet say they'd go to med school if they had their time again...

Hours worked are a big put-off for me, and your figures seem pretty typical, from surveys I've read and vets I've talked to. I think that is a problem the veterinary profession needs to address somehow (don't know how). It seems difficult to enjoy any sort of job with those sort of working conditions. And the salaries become low wages when divided by the hours actually worked.

Hi Giles (and anyone else who cares),

Overall I think going to vet school was a good thing and I enjoy being a veterinarian, but if I had it to do over I'd have gone to medical school.

Mixed animal good stuff - Driving all over the countryside gives you time to think and relax. You see all kinds of different things. I like working with horse owners (large generalization here) because they tend to be fairly compliant. They can be demanding, but that's ok. I also have an immediate "in" with them because I grew up showing horses and galloping Thoroughbreds at the local track.

Mixed animal bad stuff - The hours. Especialy in the summer 80-100 hours per week easy. On call. Palpating mares at 5 am stinks when you were treating a hit by car at midnight the night before. You are a jack of all trades, but a master of none - it's hard to stay current on everything in our field! Recovering a horse from general anesthesia in the field is dangerous...your only help will likely be a 12-year-old girl.

Things I have learned - If you want to do horse work, don't do ambulatory. It will burn you out. Get whatever additional training you need to be able to get a job in a hospital setting where you have staff, equipment and the ability to practice good medicine. Same is not true for bovine. Ambulatory bovine works well, mostly because of the herd health vs. individual animal emphasis. On call will make your life miserable. You live in fear of the pager or cell phone. If you have to take call, make sure it is no more than once per week, or negotiate to have the day post-call off (oh wait - they only do that for physicians )

More later - I have to take my baby to the doctor.

 

[frozen_canadian]

If I had a $ for every time I've heard/seen a vet say they'd go to med school if they had their time again...

You'd be a rich man?? I hope not....

 

[julieDVM]

If I had a $ for every time I've heard/seen a vet say they'd go to med school if they had their time again...

You'd be a rich man?? I hope not....

Whether you want to believe it or not - and most pre-vet/vet students dont - there are a lot of vets that have thought about going back to med school after getting through vet school. There is a lot of job dissatisfaction amongst vets - and you'd better get used to it. Maybe you haven't done your homework!

Quite frankly, not until you've gotten through vet school, and been in practice for a few years, will you truly appreciate what we've been saying.

I suppose ignorance is bliss...........

 

[bern]

But what about those who specialize?

I can see where there would be a lot of job dissatisfaction for mixed/small animal vets, but those problems don't seem to be in the picture for ones who do mostly referrals. Dermatology, orthopedic surgery, pathology... I am hoping I'll be able to afford to do a residency after i finish school so I can specialize.

Do you think it really is a different situation?

 

[giles]

Great comments, Julie. Job dissatisfaction is a huge issue from what I can see. As a non-trad in my thirties, I've spent a couple of years thinking and researching a veterinary career and completing pre-recs to apply. I talked to a lot of vets, read many veterinary career surveys, and observed a lot of practise. And I've become increasingly disillusioned by the work-life imbalance of the profession -- the trends are horrifying, in terms of stress levels, occupational illness, suicide, hours worked per earnings, vets wishing they had become doctors instead etc. Although a few vets do seem to love their work, they appear to be in the minority.

Analyzing the issue further, it seems that although the actual core role of being a vet is generally OK/enjoyable -- in terms of actual hands-on work, diagnosis and treatment -- all the associated negatives (long hours, significant stress, relatively low earnings, economic constraints on treatment, dealing with rude/aggressive clients etc) mean that overall the job is damn tough, on average. Hence the burnout issue...

Unfortunately I think that a lot of pre-vet/vet students are in a state of blissful ignorance about the realities of veterinary life.

And my final comment, which will probably offend some, is that I believe that a lot (not all) of the problems with veterinary life are caused at least partly by a lack of professionalism amongst vets themselves. Not in the medical area, but in terms of running a business properly, charging adequate fees, seeing that staff -- particularly new graduates -- are supported/mentored, organising cover so staff can have a life outside the clinic etc etc. I'll stand to be corrected on this, because it's only my opinion based on observation and could well be wrong.

Whether you want to believe it or not - and most pre-vet/vet students dont - there are a lot of vets that have thought about going back to med school after getting through vet school. There is a lot of job dissatisfaction amongst vets - and you'd better get used to it. Maybe you haven't done your homework!

Quite frankly, not until you've gotten through vet school, and been in practice for a few years, will you truly appreciate what we've been saying.

I suppose ignorance is bliss...........

 

[frozen_canadian]

Its all well and good saying that many veterinarians are responsible for the problems in the profession - low fees, poor practice managment, etc. However, it would be almost impossible to charge more for the majority of services that most vets provide than they do right now, unless that clinic was in a very wealthy area. The reality of the matter is that people do not value their pets as much as we wish they would, and are not willing/able to spend as much money on them as what we should like to charge. Therefore vets end up working longer hours to see more patients to try to generate enough income to pay off their student loans. So what is the answer? I don't know. Insurance plans? Charge more/see less patients? Anyone else care to comment on the future??

 

[Olddodger]

Great comments, Julie. Job dissatisfaction is a huge issue from what I can see. As a non-trad in my thirties, I've spent a couple of years thinking and researching a veterinary career and completing pre-recs to apply. I talked to a lot of vets, read many veterinary career surveys, and observed a lot of practise. And I've become increasingly disillusioned by the work-life imbalance of the profession -- the trends are horrifying, in terms of stress levels, occupational illness, suicide, hours worked per earnings, vets wishing they had become doctors instead etc. Although a few vets do seem to love their work, they appear to be in the minority.

Analyzing the issue further, it seems that although the actual core role of being a vet is generally OK/enjoyable -- in terms of actual hands-on work, diagnosis and treatment -- all the associated negatives (long hours, significant stress, relatively low earnings, economic constraints on treatment, dealing with rude/aggressive clients etc) mean that overall the job is damn tough, on average. Hence the burnout issue...

Unfortunately I think that a lot of pre-vet/vet students are in a state of blissful ignorance about the realities of veterinary life.

And my final comment, which will probably offend some, is that I believe that a lot (not all) of the problems with veterinary life are caused at least partly by a lack of professionalism amongst vets themselves. Not in the medical area, but in terms of running a business properly, charging adequate fees, seeing that staff -- particularly new graduates -- are supported/mentored, organising cover so staff can have a life outside the clinic etc etc. I'll stand to be corrected on this, because it's only my opinion based on observation and could well be wrong.

Hi Giles,

You are so on the mark, it's not even funny. Let me tell you about another profession that has suffered almost the same problem.

I was an airline pilot...and worked for a major carrier. I made some decent bucks/benefits that was commesurate with the effort to get to that position (a LONG commitment to the military or 8-10 years of crappy, VERY low paying jobs if you were a civilian).

There were downsides to the job...LOTS of them. Try being gone ALL the time. On the road 4-5 days at a strech. Unless you are senior (like 20 years or more), you can count on working almost every holiday. The utter nonsense that you read about pilots working only 80 hours a month is utterly untrue...only 80 PAID hours a month...your actual time at work/away from home is more like 400 hours a month. You very often have a 13-14 hour duty day, and get paid for 6.

Oh, and another gem...you work hard, and bingo, your airline goes out of business, and not only do you get to start at the bottom somewhere else, but you just lost your pension as well.

Divorce rate? It is so high it's not funny.

Problem was it could be a "fun" job. You had a lot of 2 career people/trust fund kids comming into the profession that "bought" their way in (there are little airlines where the pilots ACTUALLY PAY TO WORK THERE), and were very willing to accept much lower compensation just to do the job. That makes it VERY tough to keep wages that are in line with the effort involved. Not only do you get management that tells you that you are not worth what you are paid, but there is a stack of people waiting to do your job for free.

Anyway, I was pretty gung ho about the DVM, but I'm not going to jump from one career to another to see the exact same thing go on.

There is simply no shame in charging to cover your costs or effort involved, no matter how "fun" the job is.

My $0.02...

Oldie

 

[Bluejay224]

Great comments, Julie. Job dissatisfaction is a huge issue from what I can see. As a non-trad in my thirties, I've spent a couple of years thinking and researching a veterinary career and completing pre-recs to apply. I talked to a lot of vets, read many veterinary career surveys, and observed a lot of practise. And I've become increasingly disillusioned by the work-life imbalance of the profession -- the trends are horrifying, in terms of stress levels, occupational illness, suicide, hours worked per earnings, vets wishing they had become doctors instead etc. Although a few vets do seem to love their work, they appear to be in the minority.

Analyzing the issue further, it seems that although the actual core role of being a vet is generally OK/enjoyable -- in terms of actual hands-on work, diagnosis and treatment -- all the associated negatives (long hours, significant stress, relatively low earnings, economic constraints on treatment, dealing with rude/aggressive clients etc) mean that overall the job is damn tough, on average. Hence the burnout issue...

Unfortunately I think that a lot of pre-vet/vet students are in a state of blissful ignorance about the realities of veterinary life.

And my final comment, which will probably offend some, is that I believe that a lot (not all) of the problems with veterinary life are caused at least partly by a lack of professionalism amongst vets themselves. Not in the medical area, but in terms of running a business properly, charging adequate fees, seeing that staff -- particularly new graduates -- are supported/mentored, organising cover so staff can have a life outside the clinic etc etc. I'll stand to be corrected on this, because it's only my opinion based on observation and could well be wrong.

For what it's worth, here is my take on it.
Life is a b..., and then you die. While I really sympathize with the whole school loan issue, I think future vets need to look at how other people live. For instance, try farming and ranching, look at the hours spent working, the debt accumulated, the responsibilities......I would say they are grossly underpaid for the services that they provide for society. How about horseshoeing? Try spending everyday bent over under horses that try to kick you into orbit. While they make decent money, it is certainly not much compared with the physical labor and skill involved. The list could go on.
MD's make good money, but who can afford them? Is an appendix operation that takes 40 minutes worth 6 grand? I don't think so. So, what makes us so special? Eight years of school? Ranching, farming, shoeing, and many other trades might not require eight years of school, but the learning curve is much greater than most people suspect.
Going into vetmed, I hope to make a decent living, but I understand that people can't spend money they don't have. I here people talking about the benefits of human med., but no one has mentioned HMO's, lack of autonomy, having insurance companies run your life... There is a huge burnout rate in the medical profession as well. We need to keep this in mind.
Every profession has its strong and week spots. The question is not which one is best, but what best suits you. If its money and security you are after, then vetmed is not the right profession.

 

[zufuss]

There is a huge burnout rate in the medical profession as well. We need to keep this in mind. Every profession has its strong and weak spots. The question is not which one is best, but what best suits you. If its money and security you are after, then vetmed is not the right profession.

Amen. Honestly, who goes into the vet profession to get rich? Every profession has its good and bad side, and the grass always looks greener on the other side..but theres still cow manure in both pastures.

You need to look really long and hard when you plan on spending 60-200k on student loans. I've talked with a lot of vet students. I am friends with some very passionate ones. They still tell me story after story of a number of students (mostly in small animal) that say "yea I think veterinary work is what I want to do the rest of my life". You should know...not think you know honestly.

I hear it over and over from current students. Some of the best and brightest undergrads make it into vet school no problem, but some of them are still only half-way or so-so passionate about it? What the heck

And honestly there really is so much more to the veterinary profession now than small animal clinical work and rural food animal and equine medicine.

Anyway these are just my opinions. Feel free to disagree and discuss them further!

 

[youthman]

Amen. Honestly, who goes into the vet profession to get rich? Every profession has its good and bad side, and the grass always looks greener on the other side..but theres still cow manure in both pastures.

You need to look really long and hard when you plan on spending 60-200k on student loans. I've talked with a lot of vet students. I am friends with some very passionate ones. They still tell me story after story of a number of students (mostly in small animal) that say "yea I think veterinary work is what I want to do the rest of my life". You should know...not think you know honestly.

I hear it over and over from current students. Some of the best and brightest undergrads make it into vet school no problem, but some of them are still only half-way or so-so passionate about it? What the heck

And honestly there really is so much more to the veterinary profession now than small animal clinical work and rural food animal and equine medicine.

Anyway these are just my opinions. Feel free to disagree and discuss them further!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[julieDVM]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

you all will be singing a different tune once you're out there in the real world...

Last year was my first year on the admissions panel at my vet school - and one of the most common questions i liked to ask applicants at invervies was: "Did money play a role in your decision to become a veterinarian?" Funnily enough - it made most applicants squirm.

The best answer i got was from a guy who looked me in the eye and said, "quite frankly, i'm not going to spend 8 years of university to do chairty work - money is important to me." It was the most honest applicant i had interviewed. Incidently, we accepted him.

 

[birdvet2006]

>>>I hear it over and over from current students. Some of the best and brightest undergrads make it into vet school no problem, but some of them are still only half-way or so-so passionate about it? What the heck<<<

Exactly my feelings about it, too! I am very passionate about vet med. Every day (I mean EVERY day) I spend my own free time reading about vet med on VIN and other sources (i.e. journals or magazines, books). I am obsessed with the profession. I can't say that about half the people in my class, and maybe not even three-quarters of them. And we're graduating in 5 months! I feel that a good percentage of my class is more worried about not getting to the pub at least twice a week because they have long days at school. I feel like an outsider among them.

 

[Bill59]

I would be interested in any citations of studies showing a high rate of job disatisfaction and burnout in veterinary medicines. Most of the studies I've seen have shown the opposite.

Of course everyone has their personal opinion (after 20 years I still think I've got the best job in the world) but it might help to distinguish between individual opinions vs. the profession as a whole.

 

[zufuss]

you all will be singing a different tune once you're out there in the real world...

Last year was my first year on the admissions panel at my vet school - and one of the most common questions i liked to ask applicants at invervies was: "Did money play a role in your decision to become a veterinarian?" Funnily enough - it made most applicants squirm.

The best answer i got was from a guy who looked me in the eye and said, "quite frankly, i'm not going to spend 8 years of university to do chairty work - money is important to me." It was the most honest applicant i had interviewed. Incidently, we accepted him.

Hey that’s all well and good. I'm sure he'll make it through vet school no problem, but he’s obviously looking at vet school as a 4 year degree where you get it and boom the world is your oyster. But if you expect to get out of vet school and life will be grand well that’s just very unrealistic.

Its important to be honest, but frankly I find the "I'm not going through 8 years of university to do charity work" rather offensive. You go through a similar rigorous curriculum as medical students who get paid 4-5x more. You treat multiple species and have to know corresponding organ systems. Often you work with government funded programs to give discounts for feral cat spays. You try and find ways and methods of treatment for people who can't afford it and sometimes go with payment plans you really shouldn't. Food/Equine Vets have to travel to their appointments. You educate and work with owners to help them better care for their animals and develop a plan of action to work towards a common goal of an increased sense of responsibility. If you are like me you might be interested in Wildlife Veterinary Medicine and things like Conservation Medicine. I think the most important aspect of this field is education, outreach, and....charity.

The veterinary field reeks of charity and service. It seems to me the only way to make money in the field is to open your own clinic or work for the government (which is where many of the great alternative careers in vet-med lie).

Anyway I think the main problem is self-disillusionment. The only person that can fool you in this situation is yourself. I don’t say this to be mean or spiteful I just think it’s the plain honest truth. Who doesn’t think the hours are going to be long, the pay poor, and the stress high in and out of vet school?

 

[frozen_canadian]

julieDVM - Just out of curiosity, if you are so down on the profession, why did you decide to do a residency? Why not return to med school?

 

[julieDVM]

julieDVM - Just out of curiosity, if you are so down on the profession, why did you decide to do a residency? Why not return to med school?

My reasons for doing a residency are numerous. I wanted the challenge of doing a specialty... the scope of general practice didn't quite do it for me, and all i really wanted to do was surgery (its where my interests lie). Secondly, by doing referral work, you eliminate a lot of the problems associated with general practice - the GP basically weeds out the clients that aren't interested in paying for a service, or are unable to pay for a service, and that way when I see them in my office its not to evaluate whether the client is willing to pay for a service - its about evaluating what is best for the patient. Granted, some clients are going to back out after seeing you, but this is going to be the exception, not the norm. The final reason, is I can command a much higher fee for my services than a GP can, and that to me is a big bonus.

Whether you find the charity comment offensive or not is obviously up to you - but he definitely had a point. If you dont run your practice efficiently and productively, than you're not going to be able to compete with those practices that do - you need to be able to buy things like digital rad machines, ultrasounds (and increasingly CT and MRI scanners)- these things cost a fortune - not to mention paying your staff, and yourself. If you are giving away your services, or charging people less for your services, than you simply aren't going to be able to compete - and ultimately, your quality of care is going to suffer because you cant provide the best imaging or most up to date technology to your clients.

I didn't go back to med school because i thought i could make a good living as a specialist - i have a target area where there is significant undeserving by specialists, and i intend on setting up shop there when i'm done - i've done a lot of homework on the demographics, and tried to balance that out with choosing a nice city to live in. The other reason is the thought of going back to school as a undergrad seems like such a long road. It was hard work getting through vet school - i just dont want to be a student any more. Who knows what opportunities will be out there when i'm finished my residency - maybe ill be in a university setting (i actually enjoy teaching students).

 

[loo]

Hey that’s all well and good. I'm sure he'll make it through vet school no problem, but he’s obviously looking at vet school as a 4 year degree where you get it and boom the world is your oyster. But if you expect to get out of vet school and life will be grand well that’s just very unrealistic.

Its important to be honest, but frankly I find the "I'm not going through 8 years of university to do charity work" rather offensive. You go through a similar rigorous curriculum as medical students who get paid 4-5x more. You treat multiple species and have to know corresponding organ systems. Often you work with government funded programs to give discounts for feral cat spays. You try and find ways and methods of treatment for people who can't afford it and sometimes go with payment plans you really shouldn't. Food/Equine Vets have to travel to their appointments. You educate and work with owners to help them better care for their animals and develop a plan of action to work towards a common goal of an increased sense of responsibility. If you are like me you might be interested in Wildlife Veterinary Medicine and things like Conservation Medicine. I think the most important aspect of this field is education, outreach, and....charity.

The veterinary field reeks of charity and service. It seems to me the only way to make money in the field is to open your own clinic or work for the government (which is where many of the great alternative careers in vet-med lie).

Anyway I think the main problem is self-disillusionment. The only person that can fool you in this situation is yourself. I don’t say this to be mean or spiteful I just think it’s the plain honest truth. Who doesn’t think the hours are going to be long, the pay poor, and the stress high in and out of vet school?

Wow. I think you are being a little judgemental and defensive. There is nothing wrong with being truthful about post-DVM remuneration. Of course, the hours CAN be long, hours stressful, etc. but it does not have to be that way. Are you saying that in order to be a *worthwhile* vet in your eyes, you should accept the staus quo ? I think not.

 

[zufuss]

Wow. I think you are being a little judgemental and defensive. There is nothing wrong with being truthful about post-DVM remuneration. Of course, the hours CAN be long, hours stressful, etc. but it does not have to be that way. Are you saying that in order to be a *worthwhile* vet in your eyes, you should accept the staus quo ? I think not.

hmmm thats definately not the point I was trying to get across. I said it was good he was being truthful. You have to be truthful in the interview. I just said "I" took some offense to the charity comment. I never said anything about worth or merit and think you may have misunderstood my position. Oh, and yes, I am being very judgemental and defensive! This is an excellent discussion topic and those are my 2 cents.

And you are right, the hours don't have to be long/stressful/ ect..but it all comes down to how you as an individual handle them...but I honestly can't think of how you avoid long hours and stress full environments unless you work part time (Which is becomming more of a common practice among vets, but this just passes unwated burden upon the practice owner to work longer and hire more individuals and organize scheduling). Right now there are just more positions open than D.V.M.s to fill them so more is expected of you.

 

[loo]

My bad, zufuss. I think I see what you mean.

However, I disagree with your opinion on charity...

I will be very honest and say that I will not give my services away after 4+ years of schooling. Charity or "freebies" have their time and place, but I will not do it regularly. I have the right to charge for my services so that I can pay my loans, put food on the table, and take care of my family. This is non-negotiable, as far as I'm concerned.

I can understand why some vets become burned out. People have unrealistic economic expectations. A lot of people think they can prey on the altruistic nature of vets in order to circumvent their responsibility.

 

[Olddodger]

Right now there are just more positions open than D.V.M.s to fill them so more is expected of you.

Zufuss,

I have to ask. If this is the case, why is law of supply and demand not in action here? If there are truly more openings than DVMs to fill them, why isn't the pay higher? When a commodity becomes scarce (which is what labor is, no matter what the education level), the price of the commodity rises.

Pehaps people are simply not taking advantage of their situation. If the need is that great, then any and all aspects of the job are negotiable, whether it's pay, benefits or working conditions.

There is nothing wrong with loving what you do, and being all jazzed about it. BUT, there is also nothing wrong with being compensated fairly for your efforts. Are you implying that just because you like what you do, you should accept less compensation?

Additionally, when speaking of owners, you must remember they their receive their compensation for an "unwanted burden" in the equity they have in their practice. It goes with the territory. I agree it can be a hassle, which is why you see a huge amount of practices being bought out by the VCA and the like. The VCA wouldn't find nearly as fertle ground if vets were more interested in running their own practices these days.

Loo is right on the mark.

Oldie

 

[zufuss]

If this is the case, why is law of supply and demand not in action here? If there are truly more openings than DVMs to fill them, why isn't the pay higher? When a commodity becomes scarce (which is what labor is, no matter what the education level), the price of the commodity rises.

Pehaps people are simply not taking advantage of their situation. If the need is that great, then any and all aspects of the job are negotiable, whether it's pay, benefits or working conditions.

There is nothing wrong with loving what you do, and being all jazzed about it. BUT, there is also nothing wrong with being compensated fairly for your efforts. Are you implying that just because you like what you do, you should accept less compensation?

Well the pay is higher when you have you own private practice or go to work for government or similar public and corporate sector positions. The benefits are killer, and ability to move up the ladder exist.

But (And I am entering a gray area here in terms of my own knowledge) I believe the amount of startup involved for state of the art equipment and facilities to being a competitive practice these days is well above and beyond what it used to be. Clients expect more but want to pay the same.

Then add in the VCA and other large scale practices who drive their prices down in order to attract more business, and then hire on more vets, expand, and buy up smaller practice that can't compete is constantly and you have the problem we are faced with now; which is long hours and low wages.

Anyway, business isn't my area of expertise but this topic interests me very much so feel free to enlighten me

 

[zufuss]

My bad, zufuss. I think I see what you mean.

However, I disagree with your opinion on charity...

I will be very honest and say that I will not give my services away after 4+ years of schooling. Charity or "freebies" have their time and place, but I will not do it regularly. I have the right to charge for my services so that I can pay my loans, put food on the table, and take care of my family. This is non-negotiable, as far as I'm concerned.

I can understand why some vets become burned out. People have unrealistic economic expectations. A lot of people think they can prey on the altruistic nature of vets in order to circumvent their responsibility.

I think how you and I view the term charity is different. I don't think freebie or free handout when I hear charity.

When I hear clients complain that their vet bill was 200 for a checkup, shots, exmination, tnt, bloodwork, and maybe an x-ray. I think to myself "Godamn the Veterinary Practice is a Charity". Thats alot of care, time, and attention the veterinarian and staff have had to put into your pet and you got it for 200 dollars!

I see cruciate surgeries that end up comming out to be 1k-1.5k. Thats cheap when you think about the time spent doing everything neccessary to prepare for the surgery before and afterwards. To me the veterinary practice has become inherently charitable. Clients already get way to much for way to little.

 

[giles]

I would be interested in any citations of studies showing a high rate of job disatisfaction and burnout in veterinary medicines. Most of the studies I've seen have shown the opposite. Of course everyone has their personal opinion (after 20 years I still think I've got the best job in the world) but it might help to distinguish between individual opinions vs. the profession as a whole.

Here are some studies I've found through my research. I've pulled out relevant comments below the citation details. Just out of interest, if you're an older male veterinarian (>45 years), that seems to be the demographic that reports the MOST satisfaction with being a vet (possibly due to selection bias, ie the ones who didn't like it quit before reaching that age group).


From Australian Vet Journal; 1996: http://www.ava.com.au/avj/oct96/289.htm
The great increase in personal responsibility, coupled as it often is with personal and social dislocation and long working hours with low reward, must place major stress on even the best-prepared graduate. The career paths followed by these young veterinarians will undoubtedly be influenced considerably by their initial experiences. Some will gain confidence in the veterinary role, often with the encouragement and help of supportive bosses and colleagues. Others will survive by adapting their expectations and actions to the practical exigencies of their situation, and some will suffer severely from stress. Professional and personal self-esteem may be eroded and their attitudes to the profession, which they entered with great potential, optimism and altruism may become negative, leading to moves towards an alternative lifestyle….It is clear, however, that many young people who choose veterinary science because of positive attitudes towards animals are subjected to pressures which cause them to question their original commitment.


A Life Course Approach to Veterinary Science. Aust Vet J Vol 80, No 8, August 2002, pp454-455.
In recent years the veterinary profession has seen a drop in status and income levels in relationship to other disciplines…
…Mid-life crisis/burnout (mid 30s-50s): My first job as a new graduate was to replace a veterinarian who took his own life when he was unable to deal with the stresses of personal and professional life. Recent reports of suicides in practice owners in this age bracket suggest a sad and serious problem. As my former classmates and I pass through our 50s, I’m particularly conscious of the difficulties encountered in this life stage, as well as the pleasures it can hold. Burnout, loss of expertise, need for skills upgrade, retrenchment/ re-employment and reassessment of employment opportunities are issues to be faced. Breakdown of long-term personal and professional partnerships can be troubling….At one extreme our profession’s high suicide rate suggests that the veterinarian lifestyle can lead to poor mental and physical health. Yet at the other extreme there are many examples of fit and happy people who enjoy their lives and their work as veterinarians. What are the reasons for these differences?

Longitudinal study of veterinarians from entry to the veterinary course to 10 years after graduation: attitudes to work, career and profession. Australian Vet Journal 2002;80:474-478
Most veterinarians were glad to have done the veterinary course, but for about one-quarter their career had not lived up to expectations and almost half would not do it again in another incarnation. Stress, hours of work, difficulties in balancing personal life with career and low income were important concerns for many. Low income may contribute to the low number of males entering the veterinary profession.

From the US National Commission on Veterinary Economic Issues:
Over the past 20 years, the veterinary profession has experienced a disturbing downward economic trend. After studying the current state of veterinary medicine it is clear that quality patient care is dependent on a sound economic basis. As a result of this revelation, the NCVEI set out to: #1) discover the root causes of this decline, and #2) put into action interactive tools to help you practice better medicine and better business.
The KPMG Mega Study: As the profession of veterinary medicine sits at the brink of the next century and millennium, we are truly at a crossroads in our professional history. Significant societal problems, new driving forces, our economic viability, and technologic challenges have combined to create unprecedented opportunities and potential difficulties. Without question, our collective professional future is in flux and the fundamental ways of how we work, what we work on, when we work, why we work, and with whom we work, are all being called into question.

From 2002 interview with candidates for the AVMA President –elect.
Q: What are the issues and the challenges facing the profession?
A1: If we don't solve our economic base [problem], we're going to lose the support of our industrial partners—the companies that provide services and goods to the profession at all levels are aware. If we don't prosper, they don't prosper. There's [also] got to be a salvation, motivation, and initiative for the younger, to-be professionals in the veterinary curriculum. They've got to have a goal that they know is tangible, and the NCVEI is the answer. That is going to be their future.

A2: The financial issues are our number one challenge. The philosophy coming out of the commission, the studies going on with the Skills, Knowledge, Aptitudes, and Attitudes [working group], bringing new students awareness of what they can do to help the economics. When they go into practice, all of those things are going to certainly improve—we have a long way to go, though.

Young vets at risk of suicide – New Zealand Herald, 10 January 2003
Young veterinarians, plunged into practice soon after graduation, are facing high levels of stress. Veterinary bodies have acted quickly after a survey found stress levels among vets were so high many had considered suicide. The survey of 2000 vets was responded to by 970. A quarter said they felt depressed reasonably often and 16 per cent admitted to having considered suicide. The survey was prompted by a spate of suicides in younger veterinarians between 1996 and 2000.

Veterinary Association chief executive Murray Gibb said the results had proved that fears of a widespread problem were well-founded. "The average veterinarian is experiencing high levels of stress." The association and the Veterinary Council had immediately taken measures to address the problem. Veterinarians now had access to a freephone line staffed by Workplace Support that could be called at any time by vets in difficulty or who were concerned about a colleague. Special programmes, networking and mentoring schemes had also been organised for new and recent graduates.

"The new veterinarians are particularly vulnerable," Mr Gibb said. "They are plunged into practice without an internship. They have all the challenges of proving themselves professionally competent in the real world, and having to take full responsibility for the client's animals. "On top of that, they will have a student debt, they may be working long hours and living away from their usual support systems." NZPA

Suicide Rate:
New Zealand and Britain
www.vets.org.nz/Publicat/Vets@Work/[email protected]
Big document, relevant comment is:
"a recent British study showed veterinarians have the highest suicide rate of all the professions"

Australia
http://www.uwa.edu.au/media/statements/2003/august/uwa_study_finds_vet_hounded_by_stress_and_injury
Compared to other professions, vets faced an increased risk of: Injury; Contracting an infection from sick animals; Occupational stress; Suicide, and a slightly increased risk of cancer... Dr Fritschi said that the survey also showed that vets suffered significantly from occupation related stress. Initial analysis of answers to the psychological questions in the survey showed that about one third of vets were classified as suffering from ‘distress’ which is defined as a combination of anxiety and depression. This is indicative of a highly strained work force when compared to other occupation rates of between one fifth and a quarter. Dr Fritschi said there was evidence to suggest that the suicide rate among vets was high.

And one from Norway
Psychological Medicine 2004, 34, 1-8. (www.legeforeningen.no/asset/23996/2/23996_2.pdf)
"The highest suicide rate for the period as a whole [1960-2000] was among the male veterinarians"

From Ireland Veterinary Association website.
Stress has a profound impact on the veterinary profession. Suicide, alcoholism and family breakdown are the visible consequences of a vocational lifestyle that tends to inflict an unhealthy work-life balance on its participants. It is easy to talk about the problem, but can anything be done to improve the situation?

 

[giles]

Its all well and good saying that many veterinarians are responsible for the problems in the profession - low fees, poor practice managment, etc. However, it would be almost impossible to charge more for the majority of services that most vets provide than they do right now, unless that clinic was in a very wealthy area. The reality of the matter is that people do not value their pets as much as we wish they would, and are not willing/able to spend as much money on them as what we should like to charge. Therefore vets end up working longer hours to see more patients to try to generate enough income to pay off their student loans. So what is the answer? I don't know. Insurance plans? Charge more/see less patients? Anyone else care to comment on the future??

Yep, I tend to agree with you there. Higher fees are probably not feasible, just an idea I threw out there. I do think other aspects of practise management could be improved, e.g. marketing. That seems to be a dirty word to vets but a business is a business and effective marketing is one of the best ways of increasing revenue.

At the other end of the equation (cost-cutting), I wonder if an answer is greater consolidation of veterinary practises (ie smaller practises merging). That also seems to be frowned upon by a lot of vets, possibly with good reason from the POV of autonomy and choice, but the cost efficiencies are undeniable.

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth, I honestly don't know what the answers are...

 

[Bill59]

Giles, thanks for the links.