Reporting a classmate?

[ydf108]

My IM rotation site uses paper evals that we hand out to attendings and turn in ourselves. I saw one of my classmates fill out his own eval and submit it. I’m conflicted whether I should report him or not...What he did was wrong but it might affect his career if I report him. What do you guys think?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ladysmanfelpz]

Yeah I know a lot of students who cut corners in med school, skipping on required stuff, but nothing like this that requires input from an outside authority figure. That is tough. Obviously a lot of people will say talk to him/her if you know them, but screw that. Then they know you are involved. I mean he did the whole thing himself? Signature and all? I would say report. How you say it could mess up his whole career, I think you may be overthinking it a little. The school will punish him, but its not gonna prevent him from licensure and they may not even let residency programs know if they handle it within the school and hospital system themselves.

I mean there are two reasons he would do it. 1) He doesn’t care. 2) He wanted to look like a better student than his eval would actually show. 1 means he doesn’t want to go IM and doesn’t care much about his career so oh well, he gets punished and moves on. 2 He really wants to go IM and wants a fantastic eval. Well in 2’s case he didn’t deserve so should not have that eval sent out to sites that he applies. He may not be the doctor he thinks he is and that should be reflected appropriately. And there is always the slippery slope theory that if he gets away with this he’ll be getting away with more. I mean forging another Doctor’s signature, good god!

 

[Goro]

My IM rotation site uses paper evals that we hand out to attendings and turn in ourselves. I saw one of my classmates fill out his own eval and submit it. I’m conflicted whether I should report him or not...What he did was wrong but it might affect his career if I report him. What do you guys think?

It's hard doing the right thing, isn't it?

 

[DarkHorizon]

My IM rotation site uses paper evals that we hand out to attendings and turn in ourselves. I saw one of my classmates fill out his own eval and submit it. I’m conflicted whether I should report him or not...What he did was wrong but it might affect his career if I report him. What do you guys think?

You need to confront the guy in private and tell him to right it. I think going behind his back is not the right move unless he outright lies to you and gaslight you.

 

[ydf108]

Thanks everyone for the replies! I saw him fill the whole eval out and sign it. I heard he’s trying to match surgery and he’s known in our school for being a gunner. I know I should report him but it makes me feel bad thinking he might not get the specialty or match because of me. He doesn’t have a great reputation among students so I’ve barely talked to him. My school has an anonymous reporting system so I don’t know if I should go with that?

 

[jurassicpark]

Thanks everyone for the replies! I saw him fill the whole eval out and sign it. I heard he’s trying to match surgery and he’s known in our school for being a gunner. I know I should report him but it makes me feel bad thinking he might not get the specialty or match because of me. He doesn’t have a great reputation among students so I’ve barely talked to him. My school has an anonymous reporting system so I don’t know if I should go with that?

Whichever your conscience tells you to to report him. But this is a good (actual) board question too. what do you do when you see a colleague (fellow student) do something seriously unprofessional and unethical? You report it. You are not only protecting your school's reputation and thereby you as well, but also possibly that student's future patients and colleagues.

 

[deleted480308]

Thanks everyone for the replies! I saw him fill the whole eval out and sign it. I heard he’s trying to match surgery and he’s known in our school for being a gunner. I know I should report him but it makes me feel bad thinking he might not get the specialty or match because of me. He doesn’t have a great reputation among students so I’ve barely talked to him. My school has an anonymous reporting system so I don’t know if I should go with that?

It’s not you stopping him from matching, it’s his lack of integrity.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Thanks everyone for the replies! I saw him fill the whole eval out and sign it. I heard he’s trying to match surgery and he’s known in our school for being a gunner. I know I should report him but it makes me feel bad thinking he might not get the specialty or match because of me. He doesn’t have a great reputation among students so I’ve barely talked to him. My school has an anonymous reporting system so I don’t know if I should go with that?

sb247 beat me to the punch, but I'll say it also. It's not what you do that may cost him his match / field / diploma. It's what he/she did. And if someone doesnt call him/her on this now, it's only a matter of time before he/she cuts corners when delivering patient care and someone will get hurt.

The good news here is that your name can stay out of it completely. They can simply ask the faculty member whether they completed the evaluation. When they say no, they won't need your testimony / comments at all. In fact, you can report it anonymously if you want -- make a throw away gmail account and send it from there (although some schools will not investigate anonymous complaints)

I would be prepared for the possibility that they get expelled over this. This is bad enough that, alone, could trigger expulsion. If he/she has any prior professionalism issue (even minor), then for sure this will be the end of the road.

 

[Mass Effect]

Report. No way is that crap ok. And no, I wouldn't confront him first. He's going around forging doctor's signatures. He's not going to admit it to you. All it'll do is confirm to him that you're the one who reported him. Just report him and move on. What he gets is what he gets. His fault, not yours.

 

[DO2015CA]

Report him and then report back to us with what happened of it. Win-win

 

[ydf108]

I wanted to hear some what you guys thought because I confided in a friend who said she wouldn’t want to be a snitch. Thanks for the advice everyone! I’ll fill out a report

 

[ciestar]

Id report this without a second thought. My school had anonymous systems for this as well.

Still, wtf. How can anyone think this is a good idea? The consequences are severe.

 

[Medisaint]

I don't know if OP is serious or trolling. If OP did even a bit of MMI practice during his interviews for med schools he would know the answer to this question. Report it, zero tolerance. This isn't copying a lab in gen bio (which is still cheating obv.) but this is much more serious than that. You'll be doing him a favor by getting him punished and he'll (hopefully) learn not to cheat in the future which can hurt patients.

I think we should give the OP the benefit of the doubt. Knowing the "right" answer for an interview isn't the same as having to do it and live with the consequences.

OP, if you choose to report it you should do it anonymously, limit personal details in your email, ask for discretion from the investigating body. If asked directly by peers, deny reporting him. I would avoid confiding in any more people in your program about this as people have big mouths. Forging a signature is an incredibly stupid and risky way to cheat and there are a million ways for him to have been found out naturally. All they have to do is ask the attending. No reason to bring extra heat on yourself. There is always the chance that the attending was super lazy and asked him to fill out his own eval.

If you choose to not report him it's a moral defeat but I don't think you'd shock anyone. It's stressful, uncomfortable and so so easy to rationalize-- this is just a stupid eval... it's the school's fault for making the evaluations so unsecured...if he's truly dangerous he'll it'll get picked up by someone else. Whatever rationalization you use please don't do it out of pity for him though. Surgery is a zero sum game with more applicants than positions. If he matches it means he is taking a spot away from someone else who may have decided not to lie on their evals. That's not right.

Anyway, I was in this situation before and I chose to report it anonymously. In my case, I found a leaked answer sheet to a future test but didn't know who had stolen it. The hole in the system was fixed, people were interviewed but nobody was caught. TBH I really don't know how badly the admin wanted to find a culprit. I was surprised to find people who I respected referring to this anonymous person as a snitch. I'll never forget that. It stung but also made me wiser.

 

[deleted480308]

I wanted to hear some what you guys thought because I confided in a friend who said she wouldn’t want to be a snitch. Thanks for the advice everyone! I’ll fill out a report

Be ready for your friend to snitch on you, if this student gets expelled someone else is GOING to know

 

[Tangerine123]

In my 2nd year I had a similar situation in my biostats course.

The TA (partially) gave 4 students the answers to some questions in our final test. When I reported it, I was told to write a list of the students that recieved such information and that they would flunk the course immediately.

Obviously I didn't want something like that to happen. So I had to retract everything and was made to "admit" In front of the whole class that I was a liar and that I invented that rumor to make the TA look bad.

Looking back at the situation, I still think I did the right thing by retracting my report.

 

[Mad Jack]

The kind of person that cheats on their own evaluations is the kind of person that will cut corners and commit future acts of dishonesty. Be it a little fraud to line their pockets, skipping steps in the OR to make life easier while putting patients at risk, or disappearing from the wards to do as they please while abandoning the patients that rely on them, people like this are bad news. You may feel bad, but the simple fact is this guy only cares about himself and did this to himself. You may actually be saving the lives of others and your fellow taxpayers from enormous fraud, because this level of bold dishonesty portends some fairly terrible things in his future

 

[Mad Jack]

I wanted to hear some what you guys thought because I confided in a friend who said she wouldn’t want to be a snitch. Thanks for the advice everyone! I’ll fill out a report

We are in a field where the people next to us are expected to not be liars and cheats, because we have to rely on them every day with the very lives of our patients. The public trusts us to take care of our own affairs, including dealing with dishonest and impaired physicians. In the setting of the great position of power we hold, that trust must be maintained or else we risk losing our ability to self-regulate. This isn't snitching, it is upholding the duty that the public has put upon you to keep them safe

 

[deleted480308]

In my 2nd year I had a similar situation in my biostats course.

The TA (partially) gave 4 students the answers to some questions in our final test. When I reported it, I was told to write a list of the students that recieved such information and that they would flunk the course immediately.

Obviously I didn't want something like that to happen. So I had to retract everything and was made to "admit" In front of the whole class that I was a liar and that I invented that rumor to make the TA look bad.

Looking back at the situation, I still think I did the right thing by retracting my report.

I’m going to disagree here

 

[ginsengreset]

In my 2nd year I had a similar situation in my biostats course.

The TA (partially) gave 4 students the answers to some questions in our final test. When I reported it, I was told to write a list of the students that recieved such information and that they would flunk the course immediately.

Obviously I didn't want something like that to happen. So I had to retract everything and was made to "admit" In front of the whole class that I was a liar and that I invented that rumor to make the TA look bad.

Looking back at the situation, I still think I did the right thing by retracting my report.

I’m going to disagree here

I mean, I think neither you nor I have enough information here to warrant that judgment. If the TA began dropping test answers during some review session attended by the 4 students, they definitely do not deserve to fail. In my opinion, this applies even if their "crime" was failing to report the TA. On the other hand, if they actively solicited those answers, you'd be justified in feeling differently.

@Tangerine123 basically committed jury nullification - when jurors refuse to convict someone of a crime because they think the mandatory punishment is disproportionate.

Something similar actually happened in collegiate quiz competitions. Ahead of the national championship, members of one team attended "study sessions" hosted by an alum, who happened to be writing some questions for the event. They noticed that the study session material coincided suspiciously with the actual questions of the tournament, and reported that alum (who ended up being banned from future events).

 

[FutureInternist]

You need to confront the guy in private and tell him to right it. I think going behind his back is not the right move unless he outright lies to you and gaslight you.

Disagree.
At this point in life people know what is right and wrong.
Going private forces you to “out” yourself and sets you up for false retaliation later in the year.
Anonymous note to dean saying what you think happened.
Let them contact the preceptor to ask if they really signed that eval or not.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Imo the school is responsible for enabling this situation. I did not even know there were any schools that were still using paper evaluations in 2020. Does the school still use computers with floppy disks too?

If it’s anything like my school, there is a digital option that’s preferred by the school. But your 50 y/o attending will forever refuse to use it.

OP, you should totally report it. These types end up making up physical exam findings, progress notes etc on patients they never even saw. I’d hate it too. But it’s ultimately not your fault.

 

[NontradCA]

Why is him being a “gunner”or going into surgery important here? Seems like your motives are unclear OP. It’s not necessarily your duty to report this but it is obviously the right thing to do.

That being said I’m calling BS on all this. Who forges an eval in front of other students? I’m surprised no one else has pointed this out, but I guess with all the virtue signaling nowadays people are quick to respond with their moral authority.

 

[hallowmann]

Why is him being a “gunner”or going into surgery important here? Seems like your motives are unclear OP. It’s not necessarily your duty to report this but it is obviously the right thing to do.

That being said I’m calling BS on all this. Who forges an eval in front of other students?

The only situation in which I could give the perpetrator the benefit of a doubt would be if the attending was too lazy to do it themself and told the student to fill it out. That's happened to me before and I just asked someone else (resident) to do it.

If this is really a situation where they filled it out and forged it, then that's bad. They also didn't even have the shame to hide that they did it, so they think it's perfectly fine to do that sort of thing. That's arguably worse. Lands in the whole not only are they doing something wrong, they think its normal to do that wrong thing so they'll be emboldened to do it or worse again if not corrected.

 

[NontradCA]

Number of posts:3.

 

[NontradCA]

The only situation in which I could give the perpetrator the benefit of a doubt would be if the attending was too lazy to do it themself and told the student to fill it out. That's happened to me before and I just asked someone else (resident) to do it.

If this is really a situation where they filled it out and forged it, then that's bad. They also didn't even have the shame to hide that they did it, so they think it's perfectly fine to do that sort of thing. That's arguably worse. Lands in the whole not only are they doing something wrong, they think its normal to do that wrong thing so they'll be emboldened to do it or worse again if not corrected.

Yea I just don’t buy it. No shame is different than going out of your way to forge something in front over others. Perhaps it is partially true and OP is not giving all the details.

 

[ydf108]

Offense intended but I wouldn't want someone like you as my physician. A pharmaceutical representative throws a bag of cash and caters daily lunch to your or your colleagues in exchange for a "wink-wink" prescribe our addictive opioid, and you'll probably oblige and end up hurting patients. And don't go on trying to rationalize this by saying "bUT thIS Is SOmE mINOr TeST" - all cheating is cheating. I have cousins who are 6 years old who know right vs wrong better than individuals like you.

On second thought, you're an IMG, and cheating is often encouraged in some countries (I'm from SE Asia myself). I hope my US colleagues hold themselves to higher standards.

Please don’t attack other people. You’ve made several wrong assumptions about me, none of which was helpful to this discussion. I posted here because I wanted some second opinions while remaining anonymous, and I appreciate everyone’s input. Obviously, I felt he should be reported but the advice I got in reality made me question this (being a “snitch” or what happens if that student is kicked out with 200k in debt). I know it’s sad but what you read online or on an ethics question often doesn’t reflect reality for many reasons.

I purposely left out details to protect my anonymity. That student forged the evaluation, period. He’s trying to match into a competitive specialty and has been known to do questionable things in the past, but I didn’t think he was capable of doing this.

 

[NontradCA]

Please don’t attack other people. You’ve made several wrong assumptions about me, none of which was helpful to this discussion. I posted here because I wanted some second opinions while remaining anonymous, and I appreciate everyone’s input. Obviously, I felt he should be reported but the advice I got in reality made me question this (being a “snitch” or what happens if that student is kicked out with 200k in debt). I know it’s sad but what you read online or on an ethics question often doesn’t reflect reality for many reasons.

I purposely left out details to protect my anonymity. That student forged the evaluation, period. He’s trying to match into a competitive specialty and has been known to do questionable things in the past, but I didn’t think he was capable of doing this.

Sounds like a Lifetime movie.

 

[NontradCA]

The undisputed facts are as follows. In June 2007 two young physicians commenced their residency training in general surgery at MHMH. (Doc. 138 ¶ 8.) Dr. Knapik and her colleague, who is identified as “Dr. Doe,” became friends in the early years of their training. Over time and as a result of several small slights and disputes, the friendship between the two women cooled. (Doc. 138–8 at 41.)

In February 2011, Dr. Samuel Finlayson, program director for the general surgery residency program, sent Dr. Doe a letter detailing serious concerns about her performance as a resident. (Doc. 138–3 at 31–32.) The letter urged her to address these shortcomings in order to complete the residency program on time. The letter expressed Dr. Finlayson's concern that Dr. Doe needed to show improvement in the areas of patient care, medical knowledge, clinical decision-making, and professional relations. It warned that without “[c]lear improvement in your performance ... you will either have to repeat the 4th year [of residency], or end your training at DHMC.” (Id. at 32.) The letter noted that informal reviews of Dr. Doe's recent performance in the vascular service were good and that this “hopefully signals that you have begun to turn the corner in your progress from junior to senior level work.” (Id. )

Defendant's official name is Mary Hitchcock Memorial Hospital at Dartmouth–Hitchcock Medical Center. (Doc. 138–3 at 20.) In this case, MHMH, “Dartmouth–Hitchcock” and DHMC are used interchangeably to refer to defendant.

The letter from Dr. Finlayson does not state that Dr. Doe was placed on probation, and Dr. Doe was never on probation at any time during her residency at MHMH. (Id. at 32, 47; Doc. 138–9 at 4–5.)

At some point in the spring of 2011, Dr. Knapik came into possession of a copy of Dr. Finlayson's letter. The parties disagree about whether Dr. Doe voluntarily shared the letter with Dr. Knapik. (Doc. 9 ¶ 24; Doc. 138 ¶ 33.) For purposes of MHMH's motion for summary judgment, the court assumes that Dr. Knapik's version—that Dr. Doe gave her a copy of the letter—is correct.

In the spring of 2012, both Dr. Doe and Dr. Knapik were approaching the end of their residencies. Graduation was scheduled for June 2012. Prior to graduation, Dr. Doe was accepted into a surgery fellowship at the University of Kentucky. (Doc. 138 ¶ 54.) As part of the application she submitted to the Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure, she was required to disclose any disciplinary proceeding against her, including whether she had ever been placed on probation by MHMH. (Doc. 138–3 at 41–46.) The specific question was “Have you ever been dismissed from, resigned while under investigation, been placed on a disciplinary probation or reprimanded at a medical school or a postgraduate training program? (Academic probation is not reportable.)” (Id. at 42.)

Dr. Doe checked with Dr. Finlayson to make certain that his letter of February 2011 did not place her on probation. (Doc. 138–8 at 24–25.) He advised her that she had not been placed on probation. (Id. ) She answered the question concerning probation and other discipline “No.” (Doc. 138–3 at 42.)

Through an informal conversation with Dr. Doe's mother at a social gathering in the spring of 2011, Dr. Knapik learned that Dr. Doe had not disclosed the February 2011 letter to the fellowship program or the licensing authority in Kentucky. (Doc. 138–8 at 26–27.) In May 2012, Dr. Knapik mailed a copy of the letter to both offices in anonymous envelopes that bore the MHMH return address. (Docs. 138–2 at 10; 138–13 at 16.)

The director of the Kentucky fellowship program, Dr. Endean, was disturbed when he received the anonymous mailing. (Doc. 138–7 at 2.) He contacted the director of the vascular surgery fellowship program at MHMH. (Id. ) Through a process of tracing computer inquiries on the MHMH system, the MHMH administration developed a suspicion that Dr. Knapik was the source of the anonymous letter. (Doc. 138 ¶¶ 119–21.)

When confronted by administrators of the residency program, Dr. Knapik first denied and later admitted that she had sent the letter. (Docs. 138–13 at 17; 138–6 at 5.) Dr. Knapik believed she was required to send the letter as a matter of professional ethics because in her view, Dr. Doe had been dishonest with the medical authorities in Kentucky. (Docs. 9 ¶¶ 42–43; 138–13 at 9.)

The administrators of the residency program determined that Dr. Knapik had acted in a manner incompatible with the role of a physician and in violation of the Dartmouth–Hitchcock Code of Ethical Conduct. On June 13, 2012, Dr. Paul Kispert, director of the General Surgery Residency Program, and Dr. Marc Bertrand, Associate Dean for Graduate Medical Education, sent Dr. Knapik a letter which informed her of her dismissal from the General Surgery residency program. (Doc. 138–2 at 1.) The letter stated in part:

On or about May 5, 2012, you sent a Dartmouth–Hitchcock privileged Quality Assurance (QA) document regarding a colleague to that colleague's future employer. You have admitted to anonymously sending this QA document to the fellowship director. Your printing and forwarding of this document was not authorized by your colleague, nor was it authorized by the author of the document. This egregious action violates the Dartmouth–Hitchcock (D–H) Code of Ethical Conduct (Practice Respect for Persons; Protect Confidential and Proprietary Information; Maintain Personal Honesty and Integrity; Respect for Property and Laws) and Dartmouth–Hitchcock Information Systems Policies (Appropriate Use of Computer Resources; Electronic Mail). Additionally, according to the ACGME [Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education], “residents must demonstrate a commitment to carrying out professional responsibilities and an adherence to ethical principles.” Your actions violate the ACGME core competency of Professionalism.
Furthermore, you have not taken responsibility for the consequences of your actions. Although you admit to sending the QA documents without permission, you do not appear to understand the seriousness of this behavior and have shown no remorse for your actions....
Included with this notice of termination is a copy of our GME grievance process and procedures. Should you choose to pursue the grievance option described in these attachments, you must notify Dr. Bertrand in the Offices of Graduate Medical Education within five (5) days of receipt of this letter. (Id. )

Dr. Knapik did not request a hearing or seek a review of her case by the Director of Graduate Medical Education. (Doc. 138 ¶ 141.)

On the same day that he sent the letter to Dr. Knapik, Dr. Kispert informed the general surgery faculty and residents of Dr. Knapik's termination. (Doc. 143–7 at 16.) He also contacted the plastic surgery fellowship program in Miami where Dr. Knapik was scheduled to work following graduation from DHMC. He informed the Miami program that Dr. Knapik had been dismissed from the DHMC program on June 13, 2012 and that he would “not be certifying her to be eligible to sit for the General Surgery Boards.” (Doc. 143–7 at 14–15.) As a result, the Miami program rescinded its offer of employment to Dr. Knapik. (Doc. 143–3 at 19.)

Knapik v. Mary Hitchcock Mem'l Hosp., 90 F. Supp. 3d 292 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Knapik v. Mary Hitchcock Mem'l Hosp., 90 F. Supp. 3d 292, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

So are you accusing the OP, who I presume to be a troll, the actual gunner? Tune in tonight on CSI: SDN

 

[NontradCA]

It is a mystery to me. Looks like the OP has only 4 posts in 6 years.

I mean what was the point of posting that case? It seems the OP's purported tale and this Dr. Knapik are different. That being said, yea stuff like that happens. There's a lot of neurosis in medicine.

 

[TeddyBoomBoom]

[....] On second thought, you're an IMG, and cheating is often encouraged in some countries (I'm from SE Asia myself). I hope my US colleagues hold themselves to higher standards.

Simmer down, homie. Us Americans are not exactly known for holding ourselves to higher standards than the rest of the world.

 

[Medisaint]

I guess I have a skeptical side. paper evaluations, gunner student, fills out own eval with with witness present, submits eval with witness present, anonymous reporting system..................

I interpreted the moral of your story to be 'Don't bypass the chain of command'. Knapick could have avoided this fiasco if she took her concerns to the PD directly. It would have been cleared up and she wouldn't have been terminated. Her crime wasn't concern for professional integrity (although it seems like there may have been a vindictive motive) but rather her methods. Did I miss something?

 

[NontradCA]

I interpreted the moral of your story to be 'Don't bypass the chain of command'. Knapick could have avoided this fiasco if she took her concerns to the PD directly. It would have been cleared up and she wouldn't have been terminated. Her crime wasn't concern for professional integrity (although it seems like there may have been a vindictive motive) but rather her methods. Did I miss something?

I’m pretty sure the moral of that story in MYOB. I find it shocking you didn’t get that.

 

[Medisaint]

I’m pretty sure the moral of that story in MYOB. I find it shocking you didn’t get that.

You found my conclusion "shocking"? Are you sure?

When did professional conduct standards sink to bus riding etiquette?

 

[NontradCA]

You found my conclusion "shocking"? Are you sure?

When did professional conduct standards sink to bus riding etiquette?

You do realize that person lost her entire career for being unprofessional and violating ethics right? You do realize that the specifics of that were not "breaking the chain of command" and in fact her attempting to destroy someone's career maliciously?

While yes, the person could have likely kept her career had she went to her PD with those concerns. I'm almost positive the PD would have responded with "This is none of your business", and MYOB would've been the teaching point.

 

[Goro]

You do realize that person lost her entire career for being unprofessional and violating ethics right? You do realize that the specifics of that were not "breaking the chain of command" and in fact her attempting to destroy someone's career maliciously?

While yes, the person could have likely kept her career had she went to her PD with those concerns. I'm almost positive the PD would have responded with "This is none of your business", and MYOB would've been the teaching point.

This is less "MYOB" and more "she didn't do anything wrong" and acts of petty revenge will come back to bit you in the ass.

 

[Medisaint]

Nope. Boiling it down to just MYOB is just too simplistic. You can get booted out for not reporting cheating just like you can face legal/professional consequences for turning a blind eye to unprofessional/illegal conduct.

If Knapick escalated to her PD rather than hit the nuclear button she would have kept her job and would have performed her professional and moral duty (not saying that was her primary motivator in this case). Who cares what the PD would have said to her after that, whether it was "MYOB", "GTFO of my office" or "your shining integrity has helped me find god".

 

[NontradCA]

Nope. Boiling it down to just MYOB is just too simplistic. You can get booted out for not reporting cheating just like you can face legal/professional consequences for turning a blind eye to unprofessional/illegal conduct.

If Knapick escalated to her PD rather than hit the nuclear button she would have kept her job and would have performed her professional and moral duty (not saying that was her primary motivator in this case). Who cares what the PD would have said to her after that, whether it was "MYOB", "GTFO of my office" or "your shining integrity has helped me find god".

So normally I would not engage in such things but I feel its important medical students reading don't misconstrue how things work. We know through the documents that there was in fact no unprofessional/illegal conduct done by resident Doe. We know for fact, that it was not Knapik's moral duty to report this to the Doe's fellowship. In FACT, if there was any duty to do so, she would have not been punished.

 

[NontradCA]

This is less "MYOB" and more "she didn't do anything wrong" and acts of petty revenge will come back to bit you in the ass.

This has nothing to do with Doe, and everything to do with the punished.You know, hence Doe being named Doe. It's frustrating I actually have to explain this.

 

[Goro]

This has nothing to do with Doe, and everything to do with the punished.You know, hence Doe being named Doe. It's frustrating I actually have to explain this.

Actions have consequences. Even my 15 year old understands that.

 

[NontradCA]

Actions have consequences. Even my 15 year old understands that.

 

[DrPatriot]

My IM rotation site uses paper evals that we hand out to attendings and turn in ourselves. I saw one of my classmates fill out his own eval and submit it. I’m conflicted whether I should report him or not...What he did was wrong but it might affect his career if I report him. What do you guys think?

I feel like this was literally an interview question at like 75% of programs I interviewed at back in the day lol...you know what you have to do. INTEGRITY

 

[Medisaint]

So normally I would not engage in such things but I feel its important medical students reading don't misconstrue how things work.

How very noble of you

Look, we are arguing about two different things. You are talking about the "learning point" that Knapick herself would get from reading her own case while I am alluding to a generalizable learning point for someone else faced with a different moral dilemma.

You outline the facts of the case as if they were known to Knapick when she sent out those letters. That's your point? That Knapick should not have sent those letters because she should have just known that Doe was innocent? If that's the case the learning point would not be "MYOB" it would be: "read the future". Her argument for sending them was based on a legitimate premise:

Dr. Knapik believed she was required to send the letter as a matter of professional ethics because in her view, Dr. Doe had been dishonest with the medical authorities in Kentucky

Now to my point....
If someone finds themself in a similar situation and doesn't own a crystal ball, they should follow the chain of command in escalating concerns. Had Knapick used the proper channels to follow up on her concerns about both Doe, Knapick and the program would have avoided this mess, even though Knapick's information about Doe turned out to be incorrect.

 

[NontradCA]

How very noble of you

Look, we are arguing about two different things. You are talking about the "learning point" that Knapick herself would get from reading her own case while I am alluding to a generalizable learning point for someone else faced with a different moral dilemma.

You outline the facts of the case as if they were known to Knapick when she sent out those letters. That's your point? That Knapick should not have sent those letters because she should have just known that Doe was innocent? If that's the case the learning point would not be "MYOB" it would be: "read the future". Her argument for sending them was based on a legitimate premise:



Now to my point....
If someone finds themself in a similar situation and doesn't own a crystal ball, they should follow the chain of command in escalating concerns. Had Knapick used the proper channels to follow up on her concerns about both Doe, Knapick and the program would have avoided this mess, even though Knapick's information about Doe turned out to be incorrect.

I have one better. Don't be a piece of ****, and you'll probably be ok. I've witnessed several people lose their dignity, jobs, and lives over these kinds of things. I agree with your sentiment though, that you should always consult with your immediate supervisor in these issues. You can't go wrong there.

I think that case really had nothing to do with this thread, which is made by a troll nonetheless, and we got sidetracked.

 

[Medisaint]

Words to live by. amen.

 

[Zack318]

No doubt what he did was wrong and seriously unethical, a characteristic that makes me wonder, would I want this dude performing surgery on my loved ones? However, it's very likely that reporting him would likely end his career. This is a reportable offense likely to become part of his permanent record, making it impossible to match with any program. Licensure will also be very difficult, if not impossible. I definitely say talk to him, maybe through an anonymous note, put the fear of God in him, but I wouldn't want ending someone's career on my conscious.

 

[Hematochezia666]

Want to hear what happens to this person.

 

[Zack318]

The person reporting the cheater in question isn't "ending" anyone's career. It is the dishonest individual who brought it upon themselves. If you told me the cheater was $2m in debt from student loans and had been going through a rough time, it is still cheating and deserves to get kicked out. I wouldn't feel any different than if the cheater was a millionaire. If you're a surgeon and one of your colleagues hurt or killed someone, and they had been drinking (even a bit), but they were able to hide it and no one would ever find out, would you still feel bad about "reporting them and ending their career". If that's seriously what you take from this then you're just as bad as the offender.
I'm skeptical and as many have alluded, it's possible that OP is the person weighing the risks of cheating on their evals.

Anyways, you do you.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. In the meantime, encouraging the offender to do the right thing, while making him aware of consequences is what I would do.

 

[deleted480308]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. In the meantime, encouraging the offender to do the right thing, while making him aware of consequences is what I would do.

That’s not at all how we protect patients

 

[DO2015CA]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. In the meantime, encouraging the offender to do the right thing, while making him aware of consequences is what I would do.

This bible quote has no place in this scenario. It’s a slippery slope fallacy sure, but Dishonest doctors started as medical students. The fact they have this dishonest action doesn’t look good. Why would they all of a sudden stop being dishonest once they have even less oversight as an attending. I’d rather have a resident that has integrity and failed boards than one I have to worry about being dishonest but is smart

 

[scoopdaboop]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. In the meantime, encouraging the offender to do the right thing, while making him aware of consequences is what I would do.

I think you have higher hopes of some people than others. Why would that change anything. It's going to put you at risk more than anything. What if it's some psychotic person who has watched too much film, thus he sees you are a witness and thinks you must be eliminated. Not worth the risk.