Research in medical school. What's it like? How many of you do it?

[mrh125]

I'm wondering because im graduating from college and applying to medical school next year. In college research was always looked at something that each student should at least try and I really had to push to get any research experience beyond inputting data in excel (Most of the serious positions were given to grad students from what I've seen and in my last quarter as an undergrad I finally managed to find a professor who would let me make significant contributions to his research) and when I had very limited lab experience it was hard to find a professor who was really take the initial risk to let me in there lab. It also was difficult for me to balance research on top of school.

What is research like in medical school? Is it something that you absolutely HAVE to do to get into residency? How easy is it to get involved with research and is it similar to undergrad research (or do you get to be taken more seriously and make more significant contributions) and how do you manage it on top of medical school class work? (I'd really like to know bc it always felt like i was neglecting research due to class responsibilities in undergrad =/) Any information or stories about cool research you've done would be amazing. Thank you

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[mdeast]

I think I've enjoyed research during medical school a bit more than stuff I've done pre-medical school. Time for it largely will depend on (1) what type of medical school you attend (i.e. research focused? flexible curriculum? P/F?) (2) your personal motivations (do you want to go into academics? private practice? etc.). If you're just looking for CV fodder (case reports, small clinical research projects, etc.) to demonstrate commitment to a specialty virtually any place will have opportunities for that and it won't be too time consuming. For other bigger projects, it's largely up to your personal commitment schedule with the caveat that you will wear many other hats as a medical student and need to find your right personal balance.

In terms of feasibility, most people do a project during the MS1 summer and continue into MS2. But you have time to start earlier or late if you choose (or not at all). Most schools have internal funding for this, but there's also a lot of regional and national grants as well.

If you really want to devote a chunk of time to publishing and learning how to be an academic doctor, there's also a lot of funded opportunities to take time off (usually year between 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th). You can either do this in a pure research capacity. Or, get a degree like a MPH or Clinical Research MS that combines classes + research.

Things I've like about research in medical school so far though:
(1) You can be a bit more selective than as a lowly undergraduate and really find projects that are best tailored to your personal interests and, maybe even more importantly, good and high-yield uses of your time. In other words, no one wastes their time on something they aren't passionate about because you honestly don't have time for that in medical school.
(2) There's actually a fair amount of money that's available in terms of grants and scholarships to fund medical student research. I've self-funded a few lab projects through national grants and research...and its a much more fun (and maybe personally rewarding?) process when you have the money to make your own decisions about what direction you want to take things and how you want to achieve those directives (i.e. software, reagents, even hiring some undergrads to make your life easier.....).
(3) Variety. I've worked on a bunch of different type of research in medical school- hardcore basic science, clinical epidemiology, medical education, + normal case reports and small projects. You can try a lot out if you have the motivation and find what works for you in the context of becoming a clinician.
(4) Sometimes these projects might relate to something you saw in clinic. I had a few interesting observations on a month-long rotation, started asking myself some interesting research questions, found an appropriate dataset that could answer them and segwayed my research idea into what is a now a funded research proposal I devote about 20% of my time too. It's cool when you can bring an observation from clinic and really investigate it thoroughly for an answer.
(5) And finally...finding things you think can translate into a career. I've picked up projects I could see continuing in some way into residency and maybe starting to build an academic career around. Once you get enough into an area, start doing the conference circuits and meeting other people in the field, the motivation for research becomes a little bit more exciting.

Anyway, just my two cents. I realize some people hate research in medical school, but it's been one of my favorite parts.

 

[Foodologist]

if this was reddit, i would give mdeast reddit gold. a very excellent response to the question that really hits it on the money. just to add my two cents:

in terms of difference from undergrad, two things: 1. yes, usually u can get a lot more responsibility 2. theres a ton of different types of research available, not just bench research. for example, clinical research is not like bench research, at all

in terms of usefulness for residency, it depends widely on what type of residency u wish to pursue (and thus dependent on ur career goals). in general, competitive specialties (ortho, rads, derm, etc) and competitive institutions (the harvards, columbia, ucsf, etc) will view research in med school as a huge plus. primary care and community hospitals generally will not care about research at all

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Bump.

What kind of research projects exist for medical students who just ran gels and did PCR for a few semesters with no real involvement in the planning or "researching" aspect of their lab during ugrad?

I'm especially interested in health policy and comparative effectiveness type research, but I don't know much about statistics and only have experience cleaning glassware and running cookbook assays that a monkey could do. Still worthwhile to email random PI's with interesting projects, even without much experience?

 

[evilbooyaa]

I'm especially interested in health policy and comparative effectiveness type research, but I don't know much about statistics and only have experience cleaning glassware and running cookbook assays that a monkey could do. Still worthwhile to email random PI's with interesting projects, even without much experience?

Yes. Clinical research isn't very similar to basic science research. Experiments can't 'fail' like they routinely do in a basic science lab. Chart review is just a time sink. Once the data is collected, the hard part is actually writing the manuscript with the results. I imagine most PIs in clinical research won't expect you to be able to write a paper from scratch without heavy editing from them.

 

[caffeinemia]

My research experience:

I was at a school that didn't really emphasize research when I was going through the curriculum , even though we're a Top 20 academic tertiary referal center and Top 20 med school. WTF. I think they have since reformed.
Anyway, I had to fight for a funded research experience the summer of my M1 and ended up publishing a review article as first author. I didn't like the field, but I worked hard and got shiet done so the PI hooked it up with his homeboys in the field that I wanted to go into. Yeah, I decided early and hustled hard. That got me started on clinical projects early in M2. I had a basic stats background and very strong writing background which meant a lot less revision/double checking for the residents and PI. So he put progressively put me on a crap load of projects. I had to put in a lot of early mornings, late evenings, weekends throughout M2 and M3 and early M4 mining charts and running regressions on SPSS and writing and editing manuscripts. I learned a lot of stats along the way and published about 10 clinical papers. Somewhere along the way, someone else in the department found out I knew a lot of basic science techniques and animal care. So they funded a 1 year research experience for me. "Funded" harhar, it came out to be like 9 dollars an hour and with no overtime. I ended up publishing 1 first-author basic science paper, was 2nd or 3rd on about 5 more papers because I hustled and helped other people in the lab with their animals, experiments, assays, grant writing, etc. The PI let me go to 2 conferences where I presented a bunch of stuff in posters or podium form. Also won an award for my basic science paper -- like best post-doc/graduate student work or something like that. Oh, and I got 4 epic letters of rec from the department. So yeah, it's totally what you make of your time investment, but grind hard if you commit and keep your eyes open for opportunities.

 

[Daodejing]

^wow. what did you match into? derm/radonc/plastics/ent/uro/ortho must be full of too many mortals for your taste.

 

[caffeinemia]

^wow. what did you match into? derm/radonc/plastics/ent/uro/ortho must be full of too many mortals for your taste.

Yes, one of those. And no, there are tons of other people doing the same thing going into these fields. Honestly, med school is 90% effort and how much punishment you're willing to take. I didn't have to gun anyone down. I just always said yes and brought a lot of lube with me.

 

[JoshSt]

I think the link below is the best - to do or not to do research in med school - thread on SDN
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/how-do-some-students-have-so-many-publications.884936/

 

[dyspareunia]

Is it something that you absolutely HAVE to do to get into residency?

No, but you didn't need to shadow or volunteer to get into med school either.

 

[IonClaws]

No, but you didn't need to shadow or volunteer to get into med school either.

No, you pretty much do for any medical school in the US, MD or DO...for residencies, it would depend on the residency specialty and type.

 

[DermViser]

Yes, one of those. And no, there are tons of other people doing the same thing going into these fields. Honestly, med school is 90% effort and how much punishment you're willing to take. I didn't have to gun anyone down. I just always said yes and brought a lot of lube with me.

You have to understand the term "gunner" on SDN has morphed to something completely different than it's original meaning.

 

[caffeinemia]

You have to understand the term "gunner" on SDN has morphed to something completely different than it's original meaning.

I guess I'm a purist, but I always thought it was when you fling scalpels at the other med student when he/she's not looking. I heard attendings occasionally do that too, but isn't that's just called "pimping" ....

 

[DermViser]

I guess I'm a purist, but I always thought it was when you fling scalpels at the other med student when he/she's not looking. I heard attendings occasionally do that too, but isn't that's just called "pimping" ....

No, a gunner would be you have the other medical student cut his finger on a scalpel making it look like an accident.

 

[caffeinemia]

No, a gunner would be you have the other medical student cut his finger on a scalpel making it look like an accident.

You speak as if from experience!

 

[DermViser]

You speak as if from experience!

No, by definition, a gunner wouldn't do it outright, and ruin his evaluations.

 

[jturkel]

^wow. what did you match into? derm/radonc/plastics/ent/uro/ortho must be full of too many mortals for your taste.

dont mean to discount those fields, but 10 papers doesnt mean you just are interested in those fields. a classmate of mine matched UCSF for INTERNAL MEDICINE and had 15 cardiology pubs, many 1st author and in high impact factor journals. this ish happens

 

[Priapism4tooLong]

dont mean to discount those fields, but 10 papers doesnt mean you just are interested in those fields. a classmate of mine matched UCSF for INTERNAL MEDICINE and had 15 cardiology pubs, many 1st author and in high impact factor journals. this ish happens

Do any of his publications deal with the treatment of chronic myocardial infractions?

 

[Shark7500]

What sort of weekly commitment are we talking about here? 10 hours a week? 20 hours a week? I'm talking strictly clinical research, not benchwork. What would the commitment be if I wanted a first author paper? Second/Third author?

 

[Slack3r]

dont mean to discount those fields, but 10 papers doesnt mean you just are interested in those fields. a classmate of mine matched UCSF for INTERNAL MEDICINE and had 15 cardiology pubs, many 1st author and in high impact factor journals. this ish happens

So he has publications in a fellowship of the field he matched into?

 

[caffeinemia]

What sort of weekly commitment are we talking about here? 10 hours a week? 20 hours a week? I'm talking strictly clinical research, not benchwork. What would the commitment be if I wanted a first author paper? Second/Third author?

First the PI must give you his blessing. Then, depending on how adept you are at crunching data, writing manuscripts, and what your deadline is... it can be anywhere from a leisurely 3-5 hours a week to 20+. You'd be surprised how much free time there is in medical school.

 

[jturkel]

Do any of his publications deal with the treatment of chronic myocardial infractions?

No

So he has publications in a fellowship of the field he matched into?

Yes. That's not uncommon. I and many others who matched into medicine have research in our specific area of interest... Doesn't have to be general medicine research

 

[Shark7500]

First the PI must give you his blessing. Then, depending on how adept you are at crunching data, writing manuscripts, and what your deadline is... it can be anywhere from a leisurely 3-5 hours a week to 20+. You'd be surprised how much free time there is in medical school.

Hmm. But how is the turn around time? Are we talking 6 months of 15-20 hours a week per authorship? More? Less?

 

[caffeinemia]

Hmm. But how is the turn around time? Are we talking 6 months of 15-20 hours a week per authorship? More? Less?

Again, depends on how good you are at collecting data, running stats, writing papers. Good is very subjective and entirely dependent on your attending. He may make you revise your tables, stats, writing a 10 times. If so, it could take months. Submission, review, and request for revision from the publisher/journal can also tack on time.

Like I said, medical school (and residency) is just learning to say yes and take it.

 

[Shark7500]

Again, depends on how good you are at collecting data, running stats, writing papers. Good is very subjective and entirely dependent on your attending. He may make you revise your tables, stats, writing a 10 times. If so, it could take months. Submission, review, and request for revision from the publisher/journal can also tack on time.

Like I said, medical school (and residency) is just learning to say yes and take it.

Seems like you're being quite vague. I understand that there is inherent variability between different labs and PIs, but I'm just trying to get an idea of the average figure. How much time does the average student who does clinical research spend in the lab? Average turnaround time? Etc.

 

[MedWonk]

How difficult would it be to get some research without having any research experience at all?

 

[Wordead]

Seems like you're being quite vague. I understand that there is inherent variability between different labs and PIs, but I'm just trying to get an idea of the average figure. How much time does the average student who does clinical research spend in the lab? Average turnaround time? Etc.

He's being vague because there is literally no number that will be accurate. Ive published a paper in <1 month, others have been going for 1+ year and no end in sight. It's a mix of persistence, experience, and luck.

 

[cs24]

Seems like you're being quite vague. I understand that there is inherent variability between different labs and PIs, but I'm just trying to get an idea of the average figure. How much time does the average student who does clinical research spend in the lab? Average turnaround time? Etc.

He can't tell you what it will be like for you. It is hugely variable. What is the project, how much has already been done/collected for you, how responsive is your PI, how experienced are you working with data, do you get publishable results....? The list goes on and on. Any solid number figure answer given to do you is less informative than what you have already been told.

You sound like you've never been involved with research to act like it is just a "put your hours in and get a result in X time" type process.

 

[cs24]

How difficult would it be to get some research without having any research experience at all?

Getting research won't be the problem at most schools (so many PI's looking for free med student help). Prior research experience will help you work faster and more efficiently, and hopefully get more done faster, but I don't think not having research experience will keep you from finding a mentor to work with in medical school.

 

[JoshSt]

He's being vague because there is literally no number that will be accurate. Ive published a paper in <1 month, others have been going for 1+ year and no end in sight. It's a mix of persistence, experience, and luck.

This.

People have to realize that when they're talking about getting a research project(s) there is no generalization that applies to all. Indeed, I too have had experiences with different PIs, residents, etc - some where I did very little work (~20 hours work in 3 weeks) and got a first author pub; others that I've been on for >2 years, worked a total of 150+ hours for the hope that it will submitted before ERAS as 2nd or 3rd author.

You might hit the jackpot and get 15 first author pubs with an awesome PI or get a PI who has the attitude -- thank you for your help stupid med student, please clean the mice poop out of my cages 50 times a day and maybe we'll give you the honor of being an acknowledgement on this important publication that we'll submit to PLoS ONE in 4 to 6 years.

 

[cs24]

This.
You might hit the jackpot and get 15 first author pubs with an awesome PI or get a PI who has the attitude -- thank you for your help stupid med student, please clean the mice poop out of my cages 50 times a day and maybe we'll give you the honor of being an acknowledgement on this important publication that we'll submit to PLoS ONE in 4 to 6 years.

Haha so true. I've emphasized PI importance in a lot of posts to students asking about research in medical school, and will re-emphasize that here. If you get that second PI, drop that b@st@rd like a hot potato and move on (you should have never started with them in the first place, if you had done your interviewing/emailing/mentor selection right from the start). It is in NO way worth your time to do research like that in medical school. "hey look now that I've matched into a residency and finished my intern year a cool basic science paper that I'm 19th author on just came out (no doubt in a journal 5 tiers below what you expected at the outset). Whee"

 

[caffeinemia]

At first, I was going to get annoyed at his ignorance, but then I realized it would be more prudent spend that millisecond drinking some bourbon.

 

[Kinch]

Haha so true. I've emphasized PI importance in a lot of posts to students asking about research in medical school, and will re-emphasize that here. If you get that second PI, drop that b@st@rd like a hot potato and move on (you should have never started with them in the first place, if you had done your interviewing/emailing/mentor selection right from the start). It is in NO way worth your time to do research like that in medical school. "hey look now that I've matched into a residency and finished my intern year a cool basic science paper that I'm 19th author on just came out (no doubt in a journal 5 tiers below what you expected at the outset). Whee"

Any suggestions on how to go about selecting a good mentor?

 

[mmmcdowe]

It's highly variable what you get it out of it, but the experience and the letters of rec are just if not more important than pubcount. Look at this year off program's pub list and you'll see that some people walked out with one, and one dude walked out with 23.

http://dorisduke.cumc.columbia.edu/pub.html

 

[cs24]

Any suggestions on how to go about selecting a good mentor?

1. figure out what general specialty/interest you have in mind

2. email a bunch of people who have research interests that appeal to you (like at least 10+). IMO this should only be clinical research but YMMV

3. Meet with EVERYONE who responds to you (up to a point) Don't commit to a PI right away unless you get a great initial feeling from them based on what you talk about at the interview which is:

4. What projects does the PI want help with? Let them talk, but make sure you chime in to ask about how easy it will be to access the data, an approximate timeline for a project that has factors outside of your control (ie a case report might only be limited by how hard you work as a med student, while a clinical trial may be scheduled to end 3 years from now no matter how much work you do), where you can work from, see if they offer to pay you, see how coherent the project idea is in their head (have they done a lit review and confirmed this study needs to be done, or is this just some hazy idea in their head), potential authorship, and any other factors that are important to you

5. Look for intangibles. How fast did they email you back when you initially contacted them and in the scheduling process? This can indicate how responsive they will be to your emails (which is huge for rapid editing to occur). Are they enthusiastic about having you on the team or do you get the sense they are less excited for free help than you would expect? Are they motivated to publish? A young PI looking to make a name for himself is going to try to crank out papers, and as such has an external motivation to help you both succeed (by publishing), while an old established clinician may have a very laid back approach to research. Check their research track record on pubmed for additional info on that.

6. Weigh ALL your options before deciding. You are a medical student, and as such are ideally a bright, motivated individual offering free help to enhance both of your careers. If you did step 1,2, and 3 correctly you should have multiple people who would like to work with you. Don't settle for a project that doesn't logistically satisfy you (for me, this meant first authorship, a very responsive mentor, a project time-limited by only my own effort, ability to work from home, data already collected, etc). Pick the option(s) that fit you best and don't feel bad about telling the rest that their opportunity is just not the right fit for you.

7. Enjoy working with your great mentor! Do great work for them and they will give you more great projects that work well with your needs and everyone wins. They will also go to bat for you later when you need it with letters.

 

[Kinch]

1. figure out what general specialty/interest you have in mind

2. email a bunch of people who have research interests that appeal to you (like at least 10+). IMO this should only be clinical research but YMMV

3. Meet with EVERYONE who responds to you (up to a point) Don't commit to a PI right away unless you get a great initial feeling from them based on what you talk about at the interview which is:

4. What projects does the PI want help with? Let them talk, but make sure you chime in to ask about how easy it will be to access the data, an approximate timeline for a project that has factors outside of your control (ie a case report might only be limited by how hard you work as a med student, while a clinical trial may be scheduled to end 3 years from now no matter how much work you do), where you can work from, see if they offer to pay you, see how coherent the project idea is in their head (have they done a lit review and confirmed this study needs to be done, or is this just some hazy idea in their head), potential authorship, and any other factors that are important to you

5. Look for intangibles. How fast did they email you back when you initially contacted them and in the scheduling process? This can indicate how responsive they will be to your emails (which is huge for rapid editing to occur). Are they enthusiastic about having you on the team or do you get the sense they are less excited for free help than you would expect? Are they motivated to publish? A young PI looking to make a name for himself is going to try to crank out papers, and as such has an external motivation to help you both succeed (by publishing), while an old established clinician may have a very laid back approach to research. Check their research track record on pubmed for additional info on that.

6. Weigh ALL your options before deciding. You are a medical student, and as such are ideally a bright, motivated individual offering free help to enhance both of your careers. If you did step 1,2, and 3 correctly you should have multiple people who would like to work with you. Don't settle for a project that doesn't logistically satisfy you (for me, this meant first authorship, a very responsive mentor, a project time-limited by only my own effort, ability to work from home, data already collected, etc). Pick the option(s) that fit you best and don't feel bad about telling the rest that their opportunity is just not the right fit for you.

7. Enjoy working with your great mentor! Do great work for them and they will give you more great projects that work well with your needs and everyone wins. They will also go to bat for you later when you need it with letters.

Very helpful, thanks!