Residency programs cutting residents salaries

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njtrimed said:
Everyone, I would really appreciate it if we could get this thread back on track. It’s not worth arguing with an entitled child who likely will never appreciate how many colleagues have struggled without such privilege.

I think it would be useful for current MS4s (and really for anyone in med school) to see how residents are treated after risking their lives in a pandemic.
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Did your contract include your salary? I think mine did.
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Small Cell Carcinoma said:
No I understand it just fine. I can’t believe that you are equating being wealthy to having no idea how much a few thousand dollars is worth.
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Your posts made that clear. It isnt one size fits all.
 
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Small Cell Carcinoma said:
Kind of irrelevant but yeah they did pay, and I have no debt and am quite proud of that. I never said residents should not be paid. I only said that it’s foolish to go complaining about it because it is a luxury to get paid in a training position as an unlicensed physician whether you see it or nor. To clarify, we need the training programs they do not need us. Anyone who actually believes that healthcare can’t function properly without residents is either lying to themselves or has some kind of inferiority complex. Hence the fact that there are people here who advocate biting the hand that feeds us over a couple grand is absolutely astonishing to me.
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Small Cell Carcinoma said:
Lol ok because there was no pressure on me having my family pay for 8 years of training. I’ve clearly never once thought about money in my life either just because my parents could afford to send me to school. I have no idea how you arrived at that one. Seems like a typical jealous reaction that people like you seem to have to those of us who come from wealthy families.
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Five thousand dollars is a lot of money and a pay cut like this isn’t negligible. A lot of us do have families and it’s inconsiderate to say that we are at fault for having a life, kids, house, etc. Nobody is saying that you deserve more money if you have a family, but not being paid what they TOLD you from the start is wrong. This is absolutely worth making a bit of a fuss about. With a family myself I know that it would be hard to sacrifice 5k and it’s not like I’m taking vacations.
Also not sure what your clinical experience has been like, but residents essentially run our university hospital. Most of the attendings are hands off bc they want a more chill lifestyle lol. The hospital definitely would not run without them. Also, residents are physicians and are licensed so I think you are misinformed on that count. It isn’t like a training program is being kind or taking you on out of the goodness of their heart, it’s a job and to think that being paid is a privilege is.......out there.
 
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ciestar said:
Did your contract include your salary? I think mine did.
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Yes, mine included salary as well as promised increases in salary. They will eventually have to pay us back after the fiscal crisis declaration is removed, but that doesn’t help now.
 
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FutureSurgical said:
It’s been told that University of Colorado is withholding increase in salary for residents because of a “financial crisis.” Even though they have an emergency fund of $500 million
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That $500 million is earmarked for ceo and admin bonuses.
 
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njtrimed said:
Yes, mine included salary as well as promised increases in salary. They will eventually have to pay us back after the fiscal crisis declaration is removed, but that doesn’t help now.
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Does this have legal recourse? It’s a contract. Idk how this works
 
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TRPMinus said:
Five thousand dollars is a lot of money and a pay cut like this isn’t negligible. A lot of us do have families and it’s inconsiderate to say that we are at fault for having a life, kids, house, etc. Nobody is saying that you deserve more money if you have a family, but not being paid what they TOLD you from the start is wrong. This is absolutely worth making a bit of a fuss about. With a family myself I know that it would be hard to sacrifice 5k and it’s not like I’m taking vacations.
Also not sure what your clinical experience has been like, but residents essentially run our university hospital. Most of the attendings are hands off bc they want a more chill lifestyle lol. The hospital definitely would not run without them. Also, residents are physicians and are licensed so I think you are misinformed on that count. It isn’t like a training program is being kind or taking you on out of the goodness of their heart, it’s a job and to think that being paid is a privilege is.......out there.
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A residency is required to be a real doctor. It is also unique in the sense that you cannot simply quit and look for another place to train. Therefore it is not a job in the conventional sense of the word since the people participating in it are not qualified to do the area of work independently nor are they able to simply leave and look for a better offer. I stand by what I said in that it is a privilege to be get paid to be taught how to do anything. Especially since the starting salary for most attending is idk like 200k, it doesn’t make sense to me how people get so worked up over 5k in stipend pay. The real pay from going to residency is the ability to one day be an attending. Not the 50k/year just intended to get you by for a couple of years why you train.
 
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Small Cell Carcinoma said:
A residency is required to be a real doctor. It is also unique in the sense that you cannot simply quit and look for another place to train. Therefore it is not a job in the conventional sense of the word since the people participating in it are not qualified to do the area of work independently nor are they able to simply leave and look for a better offer. I stand by what I said in that it is a privilege to be get paid to be taught how to do anything. Especially since the starting salary for most attending is idk like 200k, it doesn’t make sense to me how people get so worked up over 5k in stipend pay. The real pay from going to residency is the ability to one day be an attending. Not the 50k/year just intended to get you by for a couple of years why you train.
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You dont have to complete a residency to be a full-fledged physician.
 
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Guys, he obviously has no idea what real life is like . So let’s just let it go . There is nothing we can say to make the person like him see things for what they are .
 
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njtrimed said:
This is actually Rutgers University, which does not own or operate any hospitals. Resident funding doesn’t even come from the university. And the university has over $580 million in unrestricted reserves and has not cut the $4 million salary of the football coach, who will likely not be working in 2020. Meanwhile, the residents were working in the pandemic in some of the hardest Hit hospitals, in makeshift ICUs and COVID units set up in the hospital cafeteria...this is the thanks they get, just after Rutgers finally agreed to hazard pay.
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i was one rank spot away from matching there... (assuming they ranked me high enough)
 
njtrimed said:
This is actually Rutgers University, which does not own or operate any hospitals. Resident funding doesn’t even come from the university. And the university has over $580 million in unrestricted reserves and has not cut the $4 million salary of the football coach, who will likely not be working in 2020. Meanwhile, the residents were working in the pandemic in some of the hardest Hit hospitals, in makeshift ICUs and COVID units set up in the hospital cafeteria...this is the thanks they get, just after Rutgers finally agreed to hazard pay.
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Is this in the news yet?
 
So just curious : is there a way to protect yourself from fluctuating salary ? For example , do you sign a contract with a residency that states your pay for all 3-4 years? Also , do you know your potential pay before you rank residencies or after you match ?
 
Oh_Gee said:
i was one rank spot away from matching there... (assuming they ranked me high enough)
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I couldnt get a date at RWJ that worked. Guess that was a blessing.
 
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M&L said:
So just curious : is there a way to protect yourself from fluctuating salary ? For example , do you sign a contract with a residency that states your pay for all 3-4 years? Also , do you know your potential pay before you rank residencies or after you match ?
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You get the salary info beforehand. Check out any program’s website, it’ll be on there.
 
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Small Cell Carcinoma said:
A residency is required to be a real doctor. It is also unique in the sense that you cannot simply quit and look for another place to train. Therefore it is not a job in the conventional sense of the word since the people participating in it are not qualified to do the area of work independently nor are they able to simply leave and look for a better offer. I stand by what I said in that it is a privilege to be get paid to be taught how to do anything. Especially since the starting salary for most attending is idk like 200k, it doesn’t make sense to me how people get so worked up over 5k in stipend pay. The real pay from going to residency is the ability to one day be an attending. Not the 50k/year just intended to get you by for a couple of years why you train.
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Do you know what it’s like to support a family on 55k and then be told that almost 10% of that will be taken away? While also trying to pay on loans? There isn’t a lot of wiggle room. Of course the real incentive is the attending salary, but some of us are just trying to scrape by and survive and 5k is a big loss. For you it may not make a difference at all but it is inconsiderate to disregard or dismiss your colleagues’ concerns simply bc it doesn’t affect you personally. Also my chosen residency is a “long” one and it isn’t like I can just survive on credit cards and wait for that attending salary. I’m also scared that you think the avg attending salary is 200k bc you’re going to get screwed when you hunt for a job.
 
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M&L said:
Ok good . Thank you !!!! How do you find out approximate cost of living snd such ? Just your own research ?
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Look into cost of living calculators. They’re helpful.
 
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ciestar said:
Look into cost of living calculators. They’re helpful.
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I was just thinking - I know it’s 2.5 years from now for me - but 55-58 K a year is a very different amount in NY vs TX. Do they give you extra in expensive states? Like they do in the military or government? Or it is flat wherever you go ?
 
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Small Cell Carcinoma said:
A residency is required to be a real doctor. It is also unique in the sense that you cannot simply quit and look for another place to train. Therefore it is not a job in the conventional sense of the word since the people participating in it are not qualified to do the area of work independently nor are they able to simply leave and look for a better offer. I stand by what I said in that it is a privilege to be get paid to be taught how to do anything. Especially since the starting salary for most attending is idk like 200k, it doesn’t make sense to me how people get so worked up over 5k in stipend pay. The real pay from going to residency is the ability to one day be an attending. Not the 50k/year just intended to get you by for a couple of years why you train.
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Man, you really seem to struggle with reading the room.

You're arguing with residents and clinical-level med students who are being worked hardcore or are about to be and saying that a noticeable reduction in their pay doesn't matter. Or that they don't need to be paid altogether. Is that really what you want to do?
 
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M&L said:
I was just thinking - I know it’s 2.5 years from now for me - but 55-58 K a year is a very different amount in NY vs TX. Do they give you extra in expensive states? Like they do in the military or government? Or it is flat wherever you go ?
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The NYP salary is 73k for PGY-1’s and mine is around 60k in the Philly area. There is some adjustment clearly, but you gotta stretch it in places like NYC
 
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M&L said:
I was just thinking - I know it’s 2.5 years from now for me - but 55-58 K a year is a very different amount in NY vs TX. Do they give you extra in expensive states? Like they do in the military or government? Or it is flat wherever you go ?
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It depends on the program. Some programs in high cost of living areas have subsidized housing or an additional stipend for housing, some do not. You will want to research this and also ask at programs in these areas when you interview.
 
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M&L said:
I was just thinking - I know it’s 2.5 years from now for me - but 55-58 K a year is a very different amount in NY vs TX. Do they give you extra in expensive states? Like they do in the military or government? Or it is flat wherever you go ?
Click to expand...
Yes, it varies widely. There are a few programs in NYC that that are paying $73K to incoming residents this year. Average in NYC is probably ~65K, and everywhere I interviewed in the northeast was offering between $60-64K. I only interviewed as far south as Philly and as far northeast as Boston.
 
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Small Cell Carcinoma said:
It’s not that I don’t care about money. I know a battle worth fighting and I know that as residents we are far more of a burden than a member of the health team. So I choose to be grateful we get paid anything at this stage instead of just complaining that the world is unfair.. As for having a family/dependents, no one told you to have any of that. I’m sure you knew what the consequences would be before starting down this path.
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Enough with the "we." You're not a resident. I'm not even fully convinced you're a med student.
 
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wow that's a lot of inapporopriate reactions in this thread, but given the posts i saw, they're pretty much well deserved and justified. Also i think we're getting baited here

Back on topic, i'm curious what programs cut the salaries because i'm not sure how that works
 
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njtrimed said:
Everyone, I would really appreciate it if we could get this thread back on track. It’s not worth arguing with an entitled child who likely will never appreciate how many colleagues have struggled without such privilege.

I think it would be useful for current MS4s (and really for anyone in med school) to see how residents are treated after risking their lives in a pandemic.
Click to expand...

My main concern is i don't know how the salaries are cut if residents are subsidized by the government. And if they're cut now, will they stay cut for future residents?
 
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SCC is the reason hospital admin think they can take advantage of us like this. These institutions will continue to abuse residents and pay them unfair wages because there are students like SCC that will happily lick boots to get a spot at a program that steals from residents (and in a way taxpayers). We need solidarity and we need to name&shame these programs taking advantage of residents. Happy to see everyone from med students to attendings on here are in agreement on this, with the exception of this troll.
 
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Honestly I think that everyone should stay far away from any institution that does this. A hospital that has the gall to cut resident salaries at all, let alone cutting resident salaries while giving their CEOs huge bonuses, likely has such profound cultural rot that financial issues are the very tip of the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure that even if they increased salaries residents would still be miserable because a program would have to be completely malignant for this to even be proposed.

Also, I really strongly believe that we need to reframe how we think about we think about residents and students as it relates to their "necessity." It's easy to be self-deprecating, dismiss ourselves as drags on the system, not contributing anything, etc. and that's probably borne out of frustration, but the fact of the matter is that somebody does need to replace the current attendings - it's absolutely necessary. Without doctors how could we even have a society? So in my view everyone entering medicine, from the lowest level up, is completely vital and should be treated as such.
 
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bananafish94 said:
Honestly I think that everyone should stay far away from any institution that does this. A hospital that has the gall to cut resident salaries at all, let alone cutting resident salaries while giving their CEOs huge bonuses, likely has such profound cultural rot that financial issues are the very tip of the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure that even if they increased salaries residents would still be miserable because a program would have to be completely malignant for this to even be proposed.

Also, I really strongly believe that we need to reframe how we think about we think about residents and students as it relates to their "necessity." It's easy to be self-deprecating, dismiss ourselves as drags on the system, not contributing anything, etc. and that's probably borne out of frustration, but the fact of the matter is that somebody does need to replace the current attendings - it's absolutely necessary. Without doctors how could we even have a society? So in my view everyone entering medicine, from the lowest level up, is completely vital and should be treated as such.
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What is really upsetting to me is that this was my #1. I went to med school here, and the faculty and administration are absolutely amazing. There was no question I wanted to stay here, and I had every intention of staying after residency if it worked out that way. I love my PD, senior residents, and I already like my incoming class just from our virtual interactions. I am passionate about the mission of the school and the hospital; we take care of a vulnerable population that needs and deserves excellent medical care. This is not coming from my school; the problem is entirely upper management at Rutgers.

Oh, and Rutgers does not own or operate ANY hospitals. They’re just screwing the people who are the backbone of upwards of a dozen NJ hospitals.
 
I should also add that residents from several programs said their PDs 100% support a “unity break” or walkout and would make sure their services are covered so that it doesn’t come across as the residents abandoning patients.
 
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Yes residents should be paid more for the amount of work they do but I hope none of you picked your residencies just based on higher pay...
 
jkdoctor said:
Congratulations. I nominate you for the biggest troll post of the year.

Cleveland Clinic in Ohio received $86.9 million in 2013 for training 728 residents, which amounts to about $119,000 per resident. Residents at the hospital receive a salary of roughly $50,000. Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City was paid $133.8 million for supporting 770 residents. That breaks down to about $173,000 per resident, while the average resident at Mount Sinai earns a salary of about $60,000.

“I think after 30 to 40 years of this kind of funding, it gets pretty addicting,” said Dr. Richard Krugman, a distinguished professor of pediatrics who served as dean of the University of Colorado School of Medicine for more than 20 years.
www.ibtimes.com

How To Fix America’s Medical Residency Program

Critics say teaching hospitals should be more transparent in how they spend taxpayers' money.
www.ibtimes.com www.ibtimes.com

Hahnemann
When the news of the shutdown broke in June, 550 residents, facing careers in peril, began anxiously seeking out other hospitals that would give them homes to complete their education. Resident physicians make up the lifeblood of the U.S. health care system—we are the ones who ensure that no patient falls through the cracks. Yet, rather than help place these physicians-in-training at appropriate nearby health systems, Hahnemann turned a blind eye to its status as an academic medical center. Instead, it decided to auction all 550 residency positions to the highest bidder. The business model of private equity, long known for flipping businesses and their assets for a profit, has now turned to residency slots as a new way to increase returns.
The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, or CMS, funds a fixed number of graduate medical education positions with $15 billion in taxpayer funds, paying $100,000 to a hospital per hired trainee. But a typical salary range for residents is around $50,000 to $65,000 (though each hospital will pay an additional $15,000 per resident in educational and malpractice spending). This means that not only are hospitals generating at least a 20 percent profit margin on this government funding, but the amount also excludes the market value of the medical services provided by those residents—which the hospitals still bill for—and the additional $168,000 to $218,000 in total operating cost savings for hospitals per employed resident. It’s no surprise, then, that hospitals are fervently bidding for Hahnemann’s coveted residency slots. A consortium of Northeast hospitals bid $55 million for the 550 positions. A bid of $60 million came in from a California health care firm shortly after.
slate.com

Private Equity Is Trying to Sell Medical Residencies for Profit

Not only would this hurt residents—it would hurt patients.
slate.com slate.com
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It is not that simple.
Salaries are one portion of resident reimbursement , benefits usually account for roughly 1/3 of what you pay an employee.
Here are some estimates in terms of actual costs.
1592097252069.png

 
Sleepingdoc said:
Yes residents should be paid more for the amount of work they do but I hope none of you picked your residencies just based on higher pay...
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Most of my list were very close to each other. The lowest salary-wise was my number two and the highest was number five.
 
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ciestar said:
Most of my list were very close to each other. The lowest salary-wise was my number two and the highest was number five.
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i actually looked into different residencies and how much they pay, after you told me they might differ - mt sinai pays more than georgetown (dc), and georgetown pays more than hopkins. I was amazed. Makes sense though, - cost of living in new york is higher than dc, and dc is more expensive than baltimore. I am glad that they sort of adjust to that though.
 
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njtrimed said:
Yes, it varies widely. There are a few programs in NYC that that are paying $73K to incoming residents this year. Average in NYC is probably ~65K, and everywhere I interviewed in the northeast was offering between $60-64K. I only interviewed as far south as Philly and as far northeast as Boston.
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Pgy6 at NYP in nyc is $90,200. Cost of living is a major factor in calculating compensation
 
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libertyyne said:
It is not that simple.
Salaries are one portion of resident reimbursement , benefits usually account for roughly 1/3 of what you pay an employee.
Here are some estimates in terms of actual costs.
View attachment 309913
Click to expand...
This article is total garbage imo. I believe the costs are inflated, the number of $$$ to recruit each resident are very high imo. Most residency programs do not pay for applicant airfare and travel costs. Do you think many residency programs are willing to admit they are making nice money off of the residents? If residents were not extremely profitable, then you would not see $55 million being bid for 550 Hahnemann residency slots: that is $100,000 per slot in cash.
Q. What organization now has the most residents in the country?
A: HCA. A big for profit corporation.
Do you think HCA went big into developing residency programs over the last 5 years to lose money?

HCA Healthcare welcomes record class of 1,453 residents and fellows
JULY 1, 2019
Four years ago, HCA Healthcare began a journey to tackle the U.S. physician shortage head-on by directly training the next generation of practicing doctors. We began by building a network of new graduate medical education (GME) training programs, where newly-minted doctors could complete their medical training and most importantly, take great care of our patients.
Today, we are pleased to announce that 1,453 new residents and fellows have joined the HCA Healthcare family. This marks the largest group to ever onboard at HCA Healthcare and the highest number among other healthcare systems in the nation.

hcatodayblog.com

HCA Healthcare welcomes record class of 1,453 residents and fellows

HCA Healthcare today welcomes a record incoming class of 1,453 new residents and fellows into its growing graduate medical education programs.
hcatodayblog.com hcatodayblog.com

HCA's profit tops $1B in Q4
Ayla Ellison (Twitter) - Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 Print | Email
HCA Healthcare, a 184-hospital system based in Nashville, Tenn., said its profit was up year over year in the fourth quarter of last year
HCA's revenue increased 10.2 percent year over year to $13.5 billion in the fourth quarter of 2019.
HCA ended the fourth quarter of 2019 with net income of $1.1 billion
www.beckershospitalreview.com

HCA's profit tops $1B in Q4

HCA Healthcare, a 184-hospital system based in Nashville, Tenn., said its profit was up year over year in the fourth quarter of last year.
www.beckershospitalreview.com www.beckershospitalreview.com

Next you can tell me that the primary motivation of the CS and PE exam$ is to protect pa$ien$s.
You can also tell me that all the new medical schools are being built solely to churn out primary care doc$$rs.
 
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libertyyne said:
It is not that simple.
Salaries are one portion of resident reimbursement , benefits usually account for roughly 1/3 of what you pay an employee.
Here are some estimates in terms of actual costs.
View attachment 309913
Click to expand...

^Dumbest justification I've seen yet.

Private companies weren't bidding 50 million to buy Hahnemann residency spots out of goodness of their hearts.

HCA is responsible for nearly 50% of newly opened residency spots for the same reason.

A hospital can pay two PAs 220k (110x2)

Or

Get paid 120k from gov and get free labor from one resident.
 
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dangEras said:
^Dumbest justification I've seen yet.

Private companies weren't bidding 50 million to buy Hahnemann residency spots out of goodness of their hearts.

HCA is responsible for nearly 50% of newly opened residency spots for the same reason.

A hospital can pay two pays 220k (110x2)

Or

Get paid 120k from gov and get free labor from one resident.
Click to expand...
But they sure tried to make it that way. Claiming it was to keep the spots in the city and to continue to help the people who live here.

This whole thing still strikes a nerve. It is so frustrating went down. All of it.
 
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