Residency programs cutting residents salaries

[2021Doctor]

HCA Healthcare is the largest sponsor of graduate medical education programs in the U.S. We train nearly 4,000 residents and fellows across 56 teaching hospitals in 14 states, primarily in the Southeast, across the Sunbelt and in the Inner Mountain West regions, where there is a shortage of residency positions. Over the next five years, we expect to accommodate as many as 7,000 residents, with a positive impact on patient care in our hospitals.
The 10 top programs this year are:

Program	# Residents
Internal Medicine	1,380
Family Medicine	463
Surgery	310
Emergency Medicine	298
Transitional	259
Psychiatry	171
OB-GYN	118
Anesthesiology	112
Pediatrics	102
Cardiology	69

HCA Healthcare welcomes record class of 1,453 residents and fellows

HCA Healthcare today welcomes a record incoming class of 1,453 new residents and fellows into its growing graduate medical education programs.

hcatodayblog.com

What is the number one specialty for HCA residency programs?
Who costs more money, hospitalists or internal medicine residents?


During the Great Recession, when many hospitals across the country were nearly brought to their knees by growing numbers of uninsured patients, one hospital system not only survived — it thrived.
In fact, profits at the health care industry giant HCA, which controls 163 hospitals from New Hampshire to California, have soared, far outpacing those of most of its competitors.
The big winners have been three private equity firms — including Bain Capital, co-founded by Mitt Romney, the Republican presidential candidate — that bought HCA in late 2006.
HCA’s robust profit growth has raised the value of the firms’ holdings to nearly three and a half times their initial investment in the $33 billion deal.

A Giant Hospital Chain Is Blazing a Profit Trail (Published 2012)

Under private equity ownership, HCA made an aggressive push for more revenue that sometimes led to conflicts with doctors and nurses over patient care.

www.nytimes.com

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[njtrimed]

Yes residents should be paid more for the amount of work they do but I hope none of you picked your residencies just based on higher pay...

If you read through this, I could have made $13K more than I accepted in my contract, and significantly more than I will now earn. I made my choice based upon where I wanted to train.

If this is the new normal, maybe it’s a responsible decision for MS4s to choose salary and benefits over the perceived mission of a program. After all, all we want is to be competent physicians, and any program adhering to ACGME standards provides that. The ACGME formally recommended in April 2020 that programs adhere to their contracts, and any program that ignores that is not adhering to those recommendations.

 

[Mass Effect]

Yes residents should be paid more for the amount of work they do but I hope none of you picked your residencies just based on higher pay...

I doubt that anyone is picking residency just on salary, but we should also stop stigmatizing caring about salary. Salary is important and I'd argue it's one of the most important things (along with cost of living) to consider when comparing programs of comparable quality. By the time we get to residency, we're all adults with responsibilities (with the exception of some privileged folks who have no clue what responsibilities are) and if your residency salary won't allow you to meet all those responsibilities, then it isn't the right residency program for you. If you have 5 kids and a spouse depending on your salary, you'd be smart to consider that 60K goes a lot further in Wisconsin than it does in NY.

 

[2021Doctor]

I doubt that anyone is picking residency just on salary, but we should also stop stigmatizing caring about salary. Salary is important and I'd argue it's one of the most important things (along with cost of living) to consider when comparing programs of comparable quality. By the time we get to residency, we're all adults with responsibilities (with the exception of some privileged folks who have no clue what responsibilities are) and if your residency salary won't allow you to meet all those responsibilities, then it isn't the right residency program for you. If you have 5 kids and a spouse depending on your salary, you'd be smart to consider that 60K goes a lot further in Wisconsin than it does in NY.

Agree. Salaries and location matter. From the AMA Freida Site

Internal Medicine
UMMS-Baystate Program
Springfield MA
PGY-1 $62,200
PGY-2 $64,800
PGY-3 $67,600


Internal Medicine
California Pacific Medical Center Program
San Francisco CA
PGY-1 $61,291
PGY-2 $66,398
PGY-3 $71,746

As of May 2020, average rent for an apartment in Springfield, MA is $1153 which is a 11.62% increase from last year when the average rent was $1019 , and a 10.84% increase from last month when the average rent was $1028.
One bedroom apartments in Springfield rent for $927 a month on average (a 8.85% decrease from last year) and two bedroom apartment rents average $1291 (a 23.39% increase from last year).

As of May 2020, average rent for an apartment in San Francisco, CA is $3788 which is a 2.93% increase from last year when the average rent was $3677 , and a 0.55% increase from last month when the average rent was $3767.
One bedroom apartments in San Francisco rent for $3422 a month on average (a 3.74% increase from last year) and two bedroom apartment rents average $4514 (a 1.2% increase from last year).

 

[M&L]

Agree. Salaries and location matter. From the AMA Freida Site

Internal Medicine
UMMS-Baystate Program
Springfield MA
PGY-1 $62,200
PGY-2 $64,800
PGY-3 $67,600


Internal Medicine
California Pacific Medical Center Program
San Francisco CA
PGY-1 $61,291
PGY-2 $66,398
PGY-3 $71,746

As of May 2020, average rent for an apartment in Springfield, MA is $1153 which is a 11.62% increase from last year when the average rent was $1019 , and a 10.84% increase from last month when the average rent was $1028.
One bedroom apartments in Springfield rent for $927 a month on average (a 8.85% decrease from last year) and two bedroom apartment rents average $1291 (a 23.39% increase from last year).

As of May 2020, average rent for an apartment in San Francisco, CA is $3788 which is a 2.93% increase from last year when the average rent was $3677 , and a 0.55% increase from last month when the average rent was $3767.
One bedroom apartments in San Francisco rent for $3422 a month on average (a 3.74% increase from last year) and two bedroom apartment rents average $4514 (a 1.2% increase from last year).

View attachment 309937
View attachment 309938

Wait , how do the residents survive on that pay in SF then ??

 

[Candidate2017]

I’d wager a good percentage attendings wouldn't know how to enter orders/write an H&P without residents...

One of my attendings had a conniption because they couldnt figure put how to attest my note on the EMR. They only had one job to do and I had to do it for them.

 

[Candidate2017]

Hey friends! Can we get a running list of programs that are slashing resident salaries this year? Rutgers is doing so, after promising hazard pay to residents, and hasn’t actually informed us yet; we heard this from our CIR. Someone in my incoming intern chat argued that this is being done elsewhere, but to my knowledge, other NJ/NY programs promised hazard pay and are not cutting salaries for residents.

M4s, take notice, and consider this when choosing where to apply.

It would be safe to assume areas and hospitals hit hard by the pandemic will order residents to make some type of "sacrifice." Beware of the hospitals where nurses have been vocal about hospital conditions during the pandemic or have been fired. If they don't care about nurses, they won't care about the low man on the totem pole: residents. When the second wave hits, it will be just in time for you incoming interns. Even in relatively unscathed areas, the pandemic has decreased patient visits and revenue too. Admin will make up lost revenue off residents' back, one way or the other.

At my program there are a lot of BS policies and extra work being instituted upon us for the purpose of stemming revenue loss for the institution and attendings. I think these changes will be permanent because once revenues do increase, organizations will be loathe to let go of that cash flow.

 

[calivianya]

Wait , how do the residents survive on that pay in SF then ??

The amount of people you can put into a single apartment is only limited by how much floor space you have to put beds in, and you can really improve that by buying smaller beds and/or bunk beds if all else fails.

 

[M&L]

Do we know what residencies offer subsidized housing ? Is it rare or common ?

 

[littlecow]

Do we know what residencies offer subsidized housing ? Is it rare or common ?

NYC ones do. Still really expensive though, except for Monte in the Bronx.

 

[hellanutella]

Wait , how do the residents survive on that pay in SF then ??

Bay Area resident – it's tight but doable. My co-residents run everywhere from independently wealthy to those swimming in student debt, so it's not all folks married to tech moguls. (Though having an SO with an income is probably the best way to slash costs)! Don't know anyone in bunk beds or doubling up in a room, fortunately.

The following is just my anecdotal evidence for anyone considering a program in the Bay. I pay ~$1600 for a 3BR/2BA cottage in a fancy suburb 10min drive from campus. I share a bathroom with another resident, but we're in surgical fields (aka not home). My best friend pays $1900 for a 2BR/2BA apartment walking distance UCSF. Living alone will run you $2.5k easy for a humble studio. The hitch is you have to hunt – ask around for home students that are staying or outgoing residents that locked in a good rate.

Getting a unit straight from a luxury apartment company (which my friends in cities like St Louis, Baltimore, and Durham are able to do) is really not feasible here, unless you got some cash or are cool with funneling >60% of your income to rent. Be aware many will need you to make 3x annual rent, so low SES folks w/o guarantors can be in a sticky situation.

That said, a lot would have been impossible on my base salary. Check program benefits – my base is under 70k for PGY1 but I get over 13k in benefits. My disability, health, licensing fees, Step 3, etc. are also all included. If my program cuts benefits or stalls salaries, a lot of people – myself included – will be in hot water. The pay increases significantly by year, but PGY7s make ~100k, which is only ~30th percentile income in my city. Whereas, if I stayed at my lower CoL home program, I'd be making the median as a PGY1.

Due to the costs of the Bay, I'm not living the lives my friends in lower CoL areas are. It would be rad if salaries were adjusted to level the playing field, but that's not going to happen. ): That said, I adore the area and was willing to rationalize the cost based on the salaries/benefits promised at interviews... cutting or altering these would have definitely changed my rank list, so this news was quite disingenuous on RU's end.

Do we know what residencies offer subsidized housing ? Is it rare or common ?

Of the places I interviewed at: Sinai, NYP, NYU, UCSF, and Stanford. IIRC it was around 2.2k for a studio at NYP-Cornell. Sinai had some of the best deals; my friends pay 1.5k each to split a 2BR right in Columbus Circle. UCSF gave 1k/month and Stanford $700/mo, outside salary, to supplement housing costs... both of their subsidized housing (~1.8k/mo) was really challenging to get.

 

[ciestar]

Do we know what residencies offer subsidized housing ? Is it rare or common ?

Programs at Tower Health/Reading do, but it’s hard to get since it is super competitive.

 

[libertyyne]

This article is total garbage imo. I believe the costs are inflated, the number of $$$ to recruit each resident are very high imo. Most residency programs do not pay for applicant airfare and travel costs. Do you think many residency programs are willing to admit they are making nice money off of the residents? If residents were not extremely profitable, then you would not see $55 million being bid for 550 Hahnemann residency slots: that is $100,000 per slot in cash.
Q. What organization now has the most residents in the country?
A: HCA. A big for profit corporation.
Do you think HCA went big into developing residency programs over the last 5 years to lose money?

HCA Healthcare welcomes record class of 1,453 residents and fellows
JULY 1, 2019
Four years ago, HCA Healthcare began a journey to tackle the U.S. physician shortage head-on by directly training the next generation of practicing doctors. We began by building a network of new graduate medical education (GME) training programs, where newly-minted doctors could complete their medical training and most importantly, take great care of our patients.
Today, we are pleased to announce that 1,453 new residents and fellows have joined the HCA Healthcare family. This marks the largest group to ever onboard at HCA Healthcare and the highest number among other healthcare systems in the nation.

HCA Healthcare welcomes record class of 1,453 residents and fellows

HCA Healthcare today welcomes a record incoming class of 1,453 new residents and fellows into its growing graduate medical education programs.

hcatodayblog.com

HCA's profit tops $1B in Q4
Ayla Ellison (Twitter) - Tuesday, January 28th, 2020 Print | Email
HCA Healthcare, a 184-hospital system based in Nashville, Tenn., said its profit was up year over year in the fourth quarter of last year
HCA's revenue increased 10.2 percent year over year to $13.5 billion in the fourth quarter of 2019.
HCA ended the fourth quarter of 2019 with net income of $1.1 billion

HCA's profit tops $1B in Q4

HCA Healthcare, a 184-hospital system based in Nashville, Tenn., said its profit was up year over year in the fourth quarter of last year.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

Next you can tell me that the primary motivation of the CS and PE exam$ is to protect pa$ien$s.
You can also tell me that all the new medical schools are being built solely to churn out primary care doc$$rs.

^Dumbest justification I've seen yet.

Private companies weren't bidding 50 million to buy Hahnemann residency spots out of goodness of their hearts.

HCA is responsible for nearly 50% of newly opened residency spots for the same reason.

A hospital can pay two PAs 220k (110x2)

Or

Get paid 120k from gov and get free labor from one resident.

Recruitment costs were for 24 residents total so probably just the food for interviews and pre interview diners etc.

I am not saying that hospitals should cut resident salaries . But acting like programs are pocketing government subsidies above resident pay is disingenuous because benefits and program admin ain’t free either.
at best residency programs are break even. At worst they can lose money.
If they were such a money maker academic hospitals would not have had an issue staying afloat, and every private practice would be chomping at the bits to increase revenue and profits, instead the hospitals have been sold off , and many times the private buyers will shutter the programs.

 

[7331poas]

Recruitment costs were for 24 residents total so probably just the food for interviews and pre interview diners etc.

I am not saying that hospitals should cut resident salaries . But acting like programs are pocketing government subsidies above resident pay is disingenuous because benefits and program admin ain’t free either.
at best residency programs are break even. At worst they can lose money.
If they were such a money maker academic hospitals would not have had an issue staying afloat, and every private practice would be chomping at the bits to increase revenue and profits, instead the hospitals have been sold off , and many times the private buyers will shutter the programs.

Ok, and you aren't factoing in the revenue that the PGY 7 neurosurgery resident brings to the facility. Im guessing it justifies "breaking even" on the government grants.

 

[libertyyne]

Ok, and you aren't factoing in the revenue that the PGY 7 neurosurgery resident brings to the facility. Im guessing it justifies "breaking even" on the government grants.

Sure , the pgy 7 is probably making money. But there are only 215~ pgy 7 Nsgy in the country. The family Med, I’m , peds pgy 1 are probably not making much money.

 

[2021Doctor]

Sure , the pgy 7 is probably making money. But there are only 215~ pgy 7 Nsgy in the country. The family Med, I’m , peds pgy 1 are probably not making much money.

Nonsense. The entrance of Bain Capital and HCA into the residency business is not based on altruism imo.
Also:
As a result of the loss of accreditation, University of New Mexico Hospital is going to lose its neurosurgery resident doctors. Richards said that eight of the physicians, who had between one and six years left of their residencies, will be placed at other training hospitals. UNM will continue to pay their salaries even after they leave for other programs. Richards said that those eight physicians will have landed at new programs by the end of 2019. Two other residents will complete their training by the time the medical school loses its accreditation in June.
In the immediate future, UNM plans to double the number of neurosurgeons on staff by March.
Note:
They hired 23 advanced practice providers to the staff to handle the workload of the 10 departing residents.

Residents complained before loss of accreditation, UNM says

Neurosurgeons-in-training cited long hours, too many trauma cases

www.abqjournal.com

 

[7331poas]

Sure , the pgy 7 is probably making money. But there are only 215~ pgy 7 Nsgy in the country. The family Med, I’m , peds pgy 1 are probably not making much money.

If your average attending hospitalist generates 2 million or so in revenue, I think the PGY2 IM resident with median training level is generating enough revenue to justify their 60k salary + benefits. Now you add into the fact that the government provides 100k for each resident to assist with compensation.

Id say you are far off mark.

 

[Neopolymath]

Sure , the pgy 7 is probably making money. But there are only 215~ pgy 7 Nsgy in the country. The family Med, I’m , peds pgy 1 are probably not making much money.

I'm going to tell you based on a very close personal/family connection to the doc who started all GME at my local hospital that they absolutely make money and come out ahead by having residency programs, even in IM and FM for example.

 

[libertyyne]

I'm going to tell you based on a very close personal/family connection to the doc who started all GME at my local hospital that they absolutely make money and come out ahead by having residency programs, even in IM and FM for example.

Is this money enough to justify keeping on expanding residency positions ? How much money are we talking here ?

 

[libertyyne]

If your average attending hospitalist generates 2 million or so in revenue, I think the PGY2 IM resident with median training level is generating enough revenue to justify their 60k salary + benefits. Now you add into the fact that the government provides 100k for each resident to assist with compensation.

Id say you are far off mark.

I will say this , even with neurosurgeons the pgy 7s are not doing cases by themselves at the two institutions I have been at, and institutional policy prevents double scrubbing for the attendings . It’s nice for the attendings though since call gets screened and they don’t have to stick around for closure or opening, but they are not far away from the ORs ?

Nonsense. The entrance of Bain Capital and HCA into the residency business is not based on altruism imo.
Also:
As a result of the loss of accreditation, University of New Mexico Hospital is going to lose its neurosurgery resident doctors. Richards said that eight of the physicians, who had between one and six years left of their residencies, will be placed at other training hospitals. UNM will continue to pay their salaries even after they leave for other programs. Richards said that those eight physicians will have landed at new programs by the end of 2019. Two other residents will complete their training by the time the medical school loses its accreditation in June.
In the immediate future, UNM plans to double the number of neurosurgeons on staff by March.
Note:
They hired 23 advanced practice providers to the staff to handle the workload of the 10 departing residents.

Residents complained before loss of accreditation, UNM says

Neurosurgeons-in-training cited long hours, too many trauma cases

www.abqjournal.com

So your point is it is better and more cost effective to fire residents and hire mid levels ?

edit : they laid off 10 residents and hired mid levels . The mid levels can bill independently and attendings can bill on top of that.wouldn’t the hospital be scrambling to open more residencies if it make so much money? For that matter wouldn’t every hospital just expand gmeuntil they were bursting at the seams .

 

[libertyyne]

I

If your average attending hospitalist generates 2 million or so in revenue, I think the PGY2 IM resident with median training level is generating enough revenue to justify their 60k salary + benefits. Now you add into the fact that the government provides 100k for each resident to assist with compensation.

Id say you are far off mark.

generating 2 mill in revenue , but how much is the cost of that revenue ? The hospitality floors at my old hospital lost money , and were there to augment so elective surgery could bring in the money.

 

[Neopolymath]

Is this money enough to justify keeping on expanding residency positions ? How much money are we talking here ?

I can't remember the exact numbers as this conversation was several years ago so I don't want to put wrong info out there but please consider one basic point before we even get into the more nuanced reasons:
Mid-level: 100k+ but doesn't work as hard and has pay incentives for call/extra work etc.
Resident: 60k and works far harder with far more patients for no extra pay

We don't even need to talk about government subsidies and silly accounting to see that you save lots of money and somehow still get way more work hours out of residents.

Add in an anesthesia program and you are rolling in money. 150-200k easily versus 60k...

The spreadsheets weren't even close and the overhead was marginally different.

 

[libertyyne]

Also the residency slot sale from hanneman winning bid was 55 million for 550 residency positions . At 120k per resident that totals 66 Million per year, yet the winning bid valued them at less than the payments that Medicare gives per year. Medicare is also claiming that it was an illegal transaction. Hardly a hot commodity if people are paying less than face value for the residency position .

 

[2021Doctor]

Also the residency slot sale from hanneman winning bid was 55 million for 550 residency positions . At 120k per resident that totals 66 Million per year, yet the winning bid valued them at less than the payments that Medicare gives per year. Medicare is also claiming that it was an illegal transaction. Hardly a hot commodity if people are paying less than face value for the residency position .

Congratulations. I think this is the dumbest post I have ever seen. You do not seem to realize that you must generate at least 55 million IN PROFITS (revenue-costs) after the sale just to break even on an investment of $55 million.

 

[Prehealth1011]

Call it what you want but getting paid as a resident is a luxury. And we don’t want to mess it up bu starting another petition whining about how unfair life is for us.

Spotted the HCA program director..

 

[libertyyne]

Congratulations. I think this is the dumbest post I have ever seen. You do not seem to realize that you must generate at least 55 million IN PROFITS (revenue-costs) after the sale just to break even on an investment of $55 million.

Not really. You buy an asset for returns. The literal cash value for the residency positions is 66 million dollars . They weren’t even willing to pay 1x return per year. heck the s/p price to earnings is 21. So people are literally willing to pay 21 times Earnings for a stock and here people are only willing to pay 0.84 says a lot about the value of the asset.
Edit :
To make it simple to where even you can understand , people are willing to pay 21 dollars to buy a share of a stock that earns 1 dollars per year in perpetuity. In this instance people are not even willing to pay a full dollar for earnings of 1 dollar, rather only 84 cents for each dollar per year in perpetuity.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Keep it professional please.

 

[7331poas]

Not really. You buy an asset for returns. The literal cash value for the residency positions is 66 million dollars . They weren’t even willing to pay 1x return per year. heck the s/p price to earnings is 21. So people are literally willing to pay 21 times Earnings for a stock and here people are only willing to pay 0.84 says a lot about the value of the asset.
Edit :
To make it simple to where even you can understand , people are willing to pay 21 dollars to buy a share of a stock that earns 1 dollars per year in perpetuity. In this instance people are not even willing to pay a full dollar for earnings of 1 dollar, rather only 84 cents for each dollar per year in perpetuity.

And you don't think they paid significantly less than market value due to the risk and extra factors involved in the transaction?

 

[managedcarefin]

They really need to teach basic hospital finance to medical students, this thread is appalling and I’m one of those “scary” hospital admins. Residents are absolutely net profitable over the length of a residency or for profit hospitals would never have them.

I haven’t heard of but if hospitals are furloughing residents and attendings but paying out administrative staff 100% that’s disappointing. Residents are the backbone of an academic medical center or teaching hospital from an ops perspective and a finance perspective.

 

[dangEras]

I will say this , even with neurosurgeons the pgy 7s are not doing cases by themselves at the two institutions I have been at, and institutional policy prevents double scrubbing for the attendings . It’s nice for the attendings though since call gets screened and they don’t have to stick around for closure or opening, but they are not far away from the ORs ?

So your point is it is better and more cost effective to fire residents and hire mid levels ?

edit : they laid off 10 residents and hired mid levels . The mid levels can bill independently and attendings can bill on top of that.wouldn’t the hospital be scrambling to open more residencies if it make so much money? For that matter wouldn’t every hospital just expand gmeuntil they were bursting at the seams .

You have a talent for missing the entire point. ACGME shut UMN's program because the had trouble meeting all of the case numbers beside trauma.

UMN has already started spending money and overhauling the department to bring residents back.

 

[Lawpy]

I still strongly maintain cutting resident salaries is insanely stupid, and the programs should be forced to reimburse the cut amount immediately (with interest ideally).

 

[libertyyne]

You have a talent for missing the entire point. ACGME shut UMN's program because the had trouble meeting all of the case numbers beside trauma.

UMN has already started spending money and overhauling the department to bring residents back.

If it was such a revenue center they would gone out of their way to protect that revenue stream.
Look every small neurosurgery practice would be chomping at the bit to increase GME. Heck even if there isnt GME money available they would just open up residency positions and pay them out of their budgets since they would bring soo much more money in return. But they havent really been doing that.

They really need to teach basic hospital finance to medical students, this thread is appalling and I’m one of those “scary” hospital admins. Residents are absolutely net profitable over the length of a residency or for profit hospitals would never have them.

I haven’t heard of but if hospitals are furloughing residents and attendings but paying out administrative staff 100% that’s disappointing. Residents are the backbone of an academic medical center or teaching hospital from an ops perspective and a finance perspective.

The only think administrators know less than medicine is finance. I was as admin before medical school as well, and beyond their own departments budget no one had a clue where money was coming and going, and the overall positive or negative impact of certain departments.
Here is a 90 + page rand report saying exactly what i have been saying. Its not that simple. Some programs can turn a profit, but others will lose money, and there are boatloads of variables including size of the complement and academic set up that may impact if it in the black or red.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR300/RR324/RAND_RR324.pdf

 

[njtrimed]

I still strongly maintain cutting resident salaries is insanely stupid, and the programs should be forced to reimburse the cut amount immediately (with interest ideally).

They did address this during orientation. Our faculty is on our side, and they believe that this was a blanket "wage freeze" applied to all departments and unions, but that they will have to re-assess the situation for essential workers. Will keep this thread updated with any changes.

 

[akwho]

My residency is taking away 457b matching funds which equates to a loss of ~$2,300 in our retirement accounts over the next year, which is kind of a bummer as a diligent saver. They are also taking away the match from all nurses and other hospital staff as well, so it's not just residents.

Doesn't look like we should get any actual salary cuts but the 457b match was certainly part of our salary that we don't get back anymore.

 

[2021Doctor]

I

generating 2 mill in revenue , but how much is the cost of that revenue ? The hospitality floors at my old hospital lost money , and were there to augment so elective surgery could bring in the money.

You are not correct reg

Recruitment costs were for 24 residents total so probably just the food for interviews and pre interview diners etc.

I am not saying that hospitals should cut resident salaries . But acting like programs are pocketing government subsidies above resident pay is disingenuous because benefits and program admin ain’t free either.
at best residency programs are break even. At worst they can lose money.
If they were such a money maker academic hospitals would not have had an issue staying afloat, and every private practice would be chomping at the bits to increase revenue and profits, instead the hospitals have been sold off , and many times the private buyers will shutter the programs.

Incorrect. Look at Hahnemann AGAIN
"It's such an unprecedented thing that's happening," David Aizenberg, MD, who was the director of Hahnemann's internal medicine residency program until it recently ended, told MedPage Today.
Many have acknowledged that a benefit of the consortium's offer is that it would keep the jobs in Philadelphia. At the same time, the benefits to the buyers can't be ignored, they said.
CMS pays around $100,000 per resident, though a typical salary is in the range of $50,000 to $60,000. There are other educational expenses and overhead like malpractice insurance and benefits, but hospitals still typically make a profit on the deal.
"It's a perpetual cash cow," Aizenberg said. "Every year, they will get millions of dollars for those slots, as long as they have trainees in them."

Is a Residency Program an Asset to Be Sold?

Fears of 'disaster for residency training' nationally

www.medpagetoday.com

How choosing a for-profit residency affects PSLF
How choosing a for-profit residency affects PSLF
Your desired location for residency may land you in a for-profit hospital — especially with major hospitals being sold to for-profit Hospital Corporation of America (HCA). If this happens, you can’t begin your PSLF program until after your residency.
This means that for at least three to five years, you’re making student loan payments without having them count toward PSLF.

For-Profit Hospital Residencies vs. PSLF Hospitals: What to Know

For-profit hospital residencies can reduce your total PSLF savings potential. Learn how to find PSLF hospitals for your residency here.

www.studentloanplanner.com

 

[libertyyne]

You are not correct reg

Incorrect. Look at Hahnemann AGAIN
"It's such an unprecedented thing that's happening," David Aizenberg, MD, who was the director of Hahnemann's internal medicine residency program until it recently ended, told MedPage Today.
Many have acknowledged that a benefit of the consortium's offer is that it would keep the jobs in Philadelphia. At the same time, the benefits to the buyers can't be ignored, they said.
CMS pays around $100,000 per resident, though a typical salary is in the range of $50,000 to $60,000. There are other educational expenses and overhead like malpractice insurance and benefits, but hospitals still typically make a profit on the deal.
"It's a perpetual cash cow," Aizenberg said. "Every year, they will get millions of dollars for those slots, as long as they have trainees in them."

Is a Residency Program an Asset to Be Sold?

Fears of 'disaster for residency training' nationally

www.medpagetoday.com

How choosing a for-profit residency affects PSLF
How choosing a for-profit residency affects PSLF
Your desired location for residency may land you in a for-profit hospital — especially with major hospitals being sold to for-profit Hospital Corporation of America (HCA). If this happens, you can’t begin your PSLF program until after your residency.
This means that for at least three to five years, you’re making student loan payments without having them count toward PSLF.

For-Profit Hospital Residencies vs. PSLF Hospitals: What to Know

For-profit hospital residencies can reduce your total PSLF savings potential. Learn how to find PSLF hospitals for your residency here.

www.studentloanplanner.com

Ignore peer reviewed journal estimates and white papers from rand to quote some random juicy qoutes from some health Blog . Ok.

 

[2021Doctor]

Ignore peer reviewed journal estimates and white papers from rand to quote some random juicy qoutes from some health Blog . Ok.

Actually the quotes are not random but from the PD of the IM program at Hahnemann.
Peer reviewed journals are not the holy grail. There are also peer reviewed papers showing the purported benefits of Step 2 CS (even though many think the test is garbage).
Example:
The Relationship Between Communication Scores From the USMLE Step 2 Clinical Skills Examination and Communication Ratings for First-Year Internal Medicine Residents
Conclusions: The results of this study make a reasonable case that Step 2 CS communication and interpersonal skills scores provide useful information for predicting the level of communication skill that examinees will display in their first year of internal medicine residency training. This finding demonstrates some level of extrapolation from the testing context to behavior in supervised practice, thus providing validity-related evidence for using Step 2 CS communication and interpersonal skills scores in high-stakes decisions.

The relationship between communication scores from the USMLE Step 2 Clinical Skills examination and communication ratings for first-year internal medicine residents - PubMed

The results of this study make a reasonable case that Step 2 CS communication and interpersonal skills scores provide useful information for predicting the level of communication skill that examinees will display in their first year of internal medicine residency training. This finding...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Any coincidence that the authors of the paper are affiliated with the NBME?

 

[Damson]

Quick question on my mind - is aiming for residencies with higher benefits/salaries "bad" in your view? Why or why not?

 

[deleted480308]

Quick question on my mind - is aiming for residencies with higher benefits/salaries "bad" in your view? Why or why not?

Why would that be bad?

 

[Damson]

Why would that be bad?

Dunno. Was just curious if people applying for residencies generally look for program "fit" or pay/benefits.

 

[Dr G Oogle]

Quick question on my mind - is aiming for residencies with higher benefits/salaries "bad" in your view? Why or why not?

All things being equal, not bad. But would not prioritize residency/benefits over reputation, amount of autonomy, number of procedures, fellowship and job placement etc.

 

[deleted480308]

Dunno. Was just curious if people applying for residencies generally look for program "fit" or pay/benefits.

It’s just one part of the equation

 

[GoSpursGo]

OK, it's clear that this thread has gone pretty far from its original intention. Closing.