Resident Threats?

[seminoma]

On a subspecialty service right now and we share a workroom with family medicine residents. There is one resident who asked me to do a favor for him (call nurse and look up labs on a pt) today even though I'm not assigned to him or even his service. I told him that I'm not on family med and stared at me and said "so?". I was kind of confused, but I told him that I wasn't familiar with his patients and probably shouldn't be looking up patients that I'm not assigned to. Basically his response was that he could make up some BS to tell my attending at any time that would result in a poor eval. So anyway I ended up doing what he asked, but if this becomes a regular thing (2 more weeks on this rotation) I don't know what I'm supposed to do..

Obviously I could just tell on him or whatever, but I haven't done family yet and I don't want word to get out to the other family residents that I'm a jackass because that would obviously affect all of my evals when I do family..

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[joker2400]

Does your school do FM placements w/ attendings that don't use residents in the clinic? If so, you could request that and report the guy.

 

[Cytarabine]

If i wasnt doing anything, I'd just do it unless it became a recurring thing that was keeping you from reading in downtime. If i was busy, I'd say I'm busy and tell him you can't. If he was just an ass about it, I'd just ignore him. The fact he threatened to lie and try to influence your eval is exceedingly inappropriate and I'd be tempted to report the behavior (though I won't say I for sure would if I was in that position, I would definitely debate it. It deserves to be reported, whether it's worth it to you and the potential negatives is another matter)

 

[Psai]

Tell him that it takes two seconds to do it himself so piss off
Not like family med residents have so much to do that they need to poach med students from other services

 

[seminoma]

Does your school do FM placements w/ attendings that don't use residents in the clinic? If so, you could request that and report the guy.

No unfortunately all sites have residents.

 

[22031 Alum]

Option 1 is to just suck it up and do it unless you're busy- just say "I can't, I'm doing XYZ for my team." Option 2 is to bring it up with clerkship director (or other student point person) for the rotation you're on. Phrase it so that it looks like you're happy to help, but since you're not on that patient's care team you want to make sure it's okay to access their chart. Chances are they won't do anything and you'll end up with Option 1.

 

[snowpea28]

On a subspecialty service right now and we share a workroom with family medicine residents. There is one resident who asked me to do a favor for him (call nurse and look up labs on a pt) today even though I'm not assigned to him or even his service. I told him that I'm not on family med and stared at me and said "so?". I was kind of confused, but I told him that I wasn't familiar with his patients and probably shouldn't be looking up patients that I'm not assigned to. Basically his response was that he could make up some BS to tell my attending at any time that would result in a poor eval. So anyway I ended up doing what he asked, but if this becomes a regular thing (2 more weeks on this rotation) I don't know what I'm supposed to do..

Obviously I could just tell on him or whatever, but I haven't done family yet and I don't want word to get out to the other family residents that I'm a jackass because that would obviously affect all of my evals when I do family..

So I'm actually going to go against some other advice in this thread...

The behavior of this resident is completely unacceptable.

You should absolutely report it to your school, your clerkship supervisor for THIS rotation as well as the FM clerkship supervisor. At my institution this type of behavior would be punished and the resident would likely be put on some form of remediation.

The way that you would want to report it is exactly what 22031 Alum described. It's not that you don't want to help the resident, it's that doing so is not safe for patient care. You should not be calling nurses and distributing information when that is not someone you're directly taking care of. In addition, no resident should be making threats about affecting your grade by "making stuff up," this is extremely inappropriate. If anything, you have discussed this with appropriate individuals who are responsible for your grades and if they do hear a complaint from him, at least they know your side of the story.

 

[gators21]

Why is everyone's first reaction to any adverse outcome "run to the director of x or the dean of y?"
The solution to this problem is to:
1) Stand up for yourself. You did the right thing by first telling him you were not on his service. Since he persisted you should have told him, very politely, how inappropriate it is to try to use his perceived power over medical students to abuse you.
If he didn't give up then 2) Go to your current resident. If you were my student, I would have flipped my **** on this resident (unless he was higher than me obviously). I know not everyone would but at least if it happens again, you have initiated some form of communication with your direct supervisor
If it persisted or later on he tries to hold it over you, 3) Go to his senior resident or chief, using strictly facts (not emotions, heresay, whatever). Have a another student with you or keep any correspondence, just in case. Request not to work with this resident.
Then and only then go to your clerkship director and address this situation.
Residencies have very strict policies about abusing medical students. It is in our contract. We can be terminated for it. But don't just run up to someone ie a program director, and expect them to give a crap about a random med student and a one time occurrence. Go through the proper channels, with a documented track record of abuse, and then report him

 

[Cytarabine]

Why is everyone's first reaction to any adverse outcome "run to the director of x or the dean of y?"
The solution to this problem is to:
1) Stand up for yourself. You did the right thing by first telling him you were not on his service. Since he persisted you should have told him, very politely, how inappropriate it is to try to use his perceived power over medical students to abuse you.
If he didn't give up then 2) Go to your current resident. If you were my student, I would have flipped my **** on this resident (unless he was higher than me obviously). I know not everyone would but at least if it happens again, you have initiated some form of communication with your direct supervisor
If it persisted or later on he tries to hold it over you, 3) Go to his senior resident or chief, using strictly facts (not emotions, heresay, whatever). Have a another student with you or keep any correspondence, just in case. Request not to work with this resident.
Then and only then go to your clerkship director and address this situation.
Residencies have very strict policies about abusing medical students. It is in our contract. We can be terminated for it. But don't just run up to someone ie a program director, and expect them to give a crap about a random med student and a one time occurrence. Go through the proper channels, with a documented track record of abuse, and then report him

Only 2 people in this thread mentioned that, and only 1 outright suggested it

 

[gators21]

Only 2 people in this thread mentioned that, and only 1 outright suggested it

Yea 3/5 posters in this thread and one of the other 2 was just a joke about fm downtime. What's your point?

 

[J ROD]

should report it but i probably would not. things like that always seems to bite you in the ass no matter. i would just let it go unless it gets really abusive

 

[22031 Alum]

But don't just run up to someone ie a program director, and expect them to give a crap about a random med student and a one time occurrence. Go through the proper channels, with a documented track record of abuse, and then report him

I agree that going to the program director would be overkill. But I don't see where this was suggested? This type of issue is what clerkship directors are supposed to deal with. (I am one, I should know...)

Edit: To clarify: dean of the school = overkill. Department chair = overkill. Residency program director = overkill. Dean of students = possibly appropriate, depending on the school (likely where I would have gone as a student). Clerkship director = The most appropriate.

 

[snowpea28]

I agree that going to the program director would be overkill. But I don't see where this was suggested? This type of issue is what clerkship directors are supposed to deal with. (I am one, I should know...)

Edit: To clarify: dean of the school = overkill. Department chair = overkill. Residency program director = overkill. Dean of students = possibly appropriate, depending on the school (likely where I would have gone as a student). Clerkship director = The most appropriate.

+1 I also mentioned clerkship directors, not PDs etc.
I also would have gone to our student dean as a medical student. She was extremely supportive and would have been more than happy to help in a situation like this.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Gosh, there seems to be a lot of mean residents lately.

 

[QualityProcess]

always, always, always go up the chain one at a time with problems

That said, tell the resident that you're not afraid of a bad eval and enough others have seen your work and attitude that you're not concerned. They might just retreat and act like they were joking with you, tell you to pull the stick out of your ass, etc.

 

[operaman]

Agreeing with those saying you should report this to your clerkship director. It's just wholly unacceptable behavior and needs to be nipped in the bud asap. My guess is that this is a junior resident because any senior with that attitude would probably have been reported long ago. The asking you to help with something is not inappropriate, but threatening your grade is. I wouldn't worry about pushback from the other FM residents -- people like this are douchebags to everyone around them, and he may even be an intern and not well known or liked anyhow.

 

[pulmoblast]

If you are not part of the team involved in the care of a patient it is a HIPPA violation to look up their chart. Tell the resident this...he will back off with a short bow...

 

[DocWinter]

Pick your battles. It's probably not worth the hassle and fuss, and for another 2 weeks just do your thing.

Sure, the ideal thing is to report the resident to his supervisor/director, but medicine is just as mean and calloused and often meaner and more calloused than other fields and this is just another overworked resident behaving poorly on a bad day. I wouldn't give it too much time.

 

[pd1112]

I can't see any med student saying "I can't, I'm busy" to a resident/nurse/attending/etc when asked to do something, and an asteroid will land directly on the space needle before any med student responds to this with "I'm not afraid of a bad eval" or "It's inappropriate to use your perceived power over medical students to abuse me." Even the hardest of the hard in the general public rarely stand up to superiors in public, especially when put on the spot, and 98+% of med students are among the softest of the soft.

 

[RangerBob]

If you are not part of the team involved in the care of a patient it is a HIPPA violation to look up their chart. Tell the resident this...he will back off with a short bow...

I'm surprised no one mentioned this earlier. By far the easiest way to avoid doing scutwork for the FM resident...

 

[Siggy]

Not like family med residents have so much to do that they need to poach med students from other services

...but if the med student doesn't look up the FM resident's patient, how will the resident have the time to pester the IM resident for curb side recs for the FM ICU patient?

 

[Kaustikos]

Man,
I normally don't mind helping, but if they'd threatened me like the OP, I'd mention it to my director.
If someone says they can't do something for you, don't threaten. It makes me wonder how their interactions with nurses goes.

 

[styphon]

Tell your own resident you are rotating with - and hopefully that resident will stand up for you.

During my residency, if this was occurring to one of my teams medical students (although in this case it would be family medicine) I would personally talk to the other resident, make it clear they are crossing boundaries and then would tell their senior resident about their difficulties with professionalism and personal interaction.

 

[seminoma]

Tell your own resident you are rotating with - and hopefully that resident will stand up for you.

During my residency, if this was occurring to one of my teams medical students (although in this case it would be family medicine) I would personally talk to the other resident, make it clear they are crossing boundaries and then would tell their senior resident about their difficulties with professionalism and personal interaction.

I considered this, but wouldn't I be putting my resident in an awkward position? I'm sure most residents wouldn't mind standing up for their med student, but at the same time I don't want to burden them more than necessary.

 

[Psai]

I considered this, but wouldn't I be putting my resident in an awkward position? I'm sure most residents wouldn't mind standing up for their med student, but at the same time I don't want to burden them more than necessary.

No, you are their student. It's not a burden for them to stand up for you

 

[pd1112]

I considered this, but wouldn't I be putting my resident in an awkward position? I'm sure most residents wouldn't mind standing up for their med student, but at the same time I don't want to burden them more than necessary.

No, you are their student. It's not a burden for them to stand up for you

Definitely, especially if you have a good working relationship with your senior.

 

[cbrons]

How to handle this situation depends completely on the personalities of the higher-ups.

If i imagine myself in your position (using the people in those positions at my school) i would not say anything.

In fact to be honest i would have done what he asked me to do in the first place without complaint if i wasnt directly working on something for another resident/attending.

Fly above ground below radar...

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

...but if the med student doesn't look up the FM resident's patient, how will the resident have the time to pester the IM resident for curb side recs for the FM ICU patient?

I guess that depends on how weak the FM program is.

 

[cbrons]

Tell your own resident you are rotating with - and hopefully that resident will stand up for you.

During my residency, if this was occurring to one of my teams medical students (although in this case it would be family medicine) I would personally talk to the other resident, make it clear they are crossing boundaries and then would tell their senior resident about their difficulties with professionalism and personal interaction.

If i was an equal level resident on another seevice and this was my med student, I would confront the resident in question directly mano e mano. If it was a female resident, I wouldnt confront her directly (because of the insane poitical environment, need i even elaborate?)

Wouldnt go to their clerkship director or senior or anything though, thats extreme and would make you look bad

 

[Bacchus]

On a subspecialty service right now and we share a workroom with family medicine residents. There is one resident who asked me to do a favor for him (call nurse and look up labs on a pt) today even though I'm not assigned to him or even his service. I told him that I'm not on family med and stared at me and said "so?". I was kind of confused, but I told him that I wasn't familiar with his patients and probably shouldn't be looking up patients that I'm not assigned to. Basically his response was that he could make up some BS to tell my attending at any time that would result in a poor eval. So anyway I ended up doing what he asked, but if this becomes a regular thing (2 more weeks on this rotation) I don't know what I'm supposed to do..

Obviously I could just tell on him or whatever, but I haven't done family yet and I don't want word to get out to the other family residents that I'm a jackass because that would obviously affect all of my evals when I do family..

From an FM resident, he sounds like an asshat. If you're not directly taking care of a patient you shouldn't be accessing their medical information.

 

[Bacchus]

Tell him that it takes two seconds to do it himself so piss off
Not like family med residents have so much to do that they need to poach med students from other services

Uh...wrong.

 

[witzelsucht]

I'm usually pretty passive about giving in to scutwork...but I woulda stared that clown in the eye and said "yeah, my attending is Dr. Smith, let's call him right now and straighten this out." That is wildly, wildly inappropriate behavior for a number of reasons.

 

[pd1112]

I'm usually pretty passive about giving in to scutwork...but I woulda stared that clown in the eye and said "yeah, my attending is Dr. Smith, let's call him right now and straighten this out." That is wildly, wildly inappropriate behavior for a number of reasons.

lmao guarantee you would not have done & said this to his face

 

[Doctor Bob]

The behavior of this resident is completely unacceptable.

You should absolutely report it to your school, your clerkship supervisor for THIS rotation as well as the FM clerkship supervisor. At my institution this type of behavior would be punished and the resident would likely be put on some form of remediation.

As an attending I would like to know about this stuff as well. If you're on my service and someone (I don't care who; student, resident, attending) on another service is unwarrantedly giving you s*** I want to know.

1) Stand up for yourself. ... 2) Go to your current resident. ... 3) Go to his senior resident or chief, using strictly facts. ... Then and only then go to your clerkship director and address this situation.

Only because of the subjectiveness of student/resident evaluations, and how people can (and do) badmouth people behind their backs, yes I would do 3 of the 4 of those. Stand up to the resident, go tell your current resident/attending, and tell your clerkship director. No benefit to going to their senior resident.

 

[Psai]

Uh...wrong.

So you need to poach medical students from other services? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here

 

[Bacchus]

So you need to poach medical students from other services? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here

Admittedly I only read half your sentence. I'm already beginning with my IDGAF, let this be over attitude. My apologies.

 

[Kaustikos]

lmao guarantee you would not have done & said this to his face

Right? It takes a lot to say no to a resident. Or higher up. Even if you're not on their service, you still don't want to start anything at the moment.

Uh...wrong.

So you need to poach medical students from other services? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here

I think he's remarking about your saying family medicine doesn't really have much to do. Which, I disagree. They're definitely busy. Like hospitalists.

 

[Wordead]

That's crazy inappropriate, I don't care if he was the senior or intern, scutting a student not even on your service is unacceptable, much less the threats. Clerkship director as well as your team should be notified. I'd escalate this if I were your resident.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

I feel you need to think about this more broadly.

Helping one another is something that we as physicians need to do from time to time, even if it has no direct bearing on what we are doing or whether we are relevant to the care.

However, I think in this instance there may have been an assumption that you are there simply to do someone else's work. There clearly was an abuse of hierarchy.

But I do ask you to consider that if such a request had been posed in a respectful manner and the resident appeared to be very busy, would you still feel it inappropriate? Maybe you could have learned something.

I'd be inclined to help.

 

[Doctor Bob]

But I do ask you to consider that if such a request had been posed in a respectful manner and the resident appeared to be very busy, would you still feel it inappropriate? Maybe you could have learned something.

I'd be inclined to help.

Agree completely. It's not the request to make a phone call or datamine the computer that would be problematic here. It's the "response ... that he could make up some BS to tell my attending at any time that would result in a poor eval". That's where the line was crossed.