Rich premed students

[notdeadyet]

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Are people really going to hate me because my parents are putting me through med school?

Some people will hate you for it, but others will have more sense. Don't sweat it. Lots of folks will always resent it when someone gets a better shake than them.

I'd be delighted if my folks were in the position to pay for my education and I think most others would too. Don't sweat the begrudgery.

 

[trying]

Are people really going to hate me because my parents are putting me through med school?

if they do, its their problem. on the other hand, if you advertise that your parents are paying and are overly concerned about what others think of this, i think that would be a good reason to hate you.

 

[NoktorNoL]

Some people will hate you for it, but others will have more sense. Don't sweat it. Lots of folks will always resent it when someone gets a better shake than them.

I'd be delighted if my folks were in the position to pay for my education and I think most others would too. Don't sweat the begrudgery.

Thanks 🙂

 

[notdeadyet]

Thanks 🙂

No problem. Can I borrow $100?

 

[NoktorNoL]

No problem. Can I borrow $100?

lol..definitely couldnt actually do this.

 

[HumbleMD]

So speaking for the bitter, "poor" students, meaning I won't be getting a dime from my parents, I guess I'd have to confess that our anger is misdirected at the students rather than the system, where it should be.
This is because folks who are having mom and dad get to skip the whole annoying financial aid process. The rest of us peons are left filling out FAFSAs, hunting down our parents taxes, W-2's, and paying for annoying little services that require even more info (my dad's car make and model, for example). And then we're basically lied to, because after jumping through all these hoops, there's still a majority of the cost that is "expected" to come from our parents, when it won't be, and the schools kind of look at us and say "what? you don't have 30 grand lying around?😕 "
That's why I'm bitter.

 

[trying]

I guess I'd have to confess that our anger is misdirected at the students rather than the system, where it should be.

why at the system - thats what is going to help you pay for med school. why not at your parents for not saving up for you?

 

[HumbleMD]

why at the system - thats what is going to help you pay for med school. why not at your parents for not saving up for you?

OMFG. Myself and my parents had a difficult enough time keeping me out of debt for undergrad, so graduate school was out of the question. I know this may blow your privileged mind, but even with proper saving and frugal living not every household can afford a 70,000 strain for 4 years. *****. Shor-sighted people like this are exactly why the upper education system is cut off to many people before they even start. I feel privileged enough to make it this far.
I'm mad at the system becase it makes assumptions that aren't going to happen and forgets the middle class - the upper class (you) gets to skip out on all the begging for money; the rest of us are then left asking for help, but it is only the lower income brackets who are acknowledged as having need.

 

[notdeadyet]

So speaking for the bitter, "poor" students, meaning I won't be getting a dime from my parents,

Though if you made it through undergrad with the help of your parents and didn't have to take out loans, there are a lot of "poorer" students out there who had to run up four years of big debt for their BA and are probably misdirecting their anger at privilaged you.

This is why the begrudgery thing doesn't work. There are folks who have it better and worse. Work hard so one's kids are in the former category...

 

[trying]

OMFG. Myself and my parents had a difficult enough time keeping me out of debt for undergrad, so graduate school was out of the question. I know this may blow your privileged mind, but even with proper saving and frugal living not every household can afford a 70,000 strain for 4 years. *****. Shor-sighted people like this are exactly why the upper education system is cut off to many people before they even start. I feel privileged enough to make it this far.
I'm mad at the system becase it makes assumptions that aren't going to happen and forgets the middle class - the upper class (you) gets to skip out on all the begging for money; the rest of us are then left asking for help, but it is only the lower income brackets who are acknowledged as having need.

i guess im fundamentally annoyed by people who think they are owed something. there are plenty of people, rich, middle-class, and poor who have to take loans to finance their education and they don't complain - they are grateful for the gift they got.

 

[notdeadyet]

the rest of us are then left asking for help, but it is only the lower income brackets who are acknowledged as having need.

Really? I found the med school finaid process to be a lot more understanding than undergrad. Even if you're upper-middle class, the federal loan money is there for the taking, which was not my experience in undergrad.

There aren't a lot of grants for upper-middle class folks, but jeeze, by the time you go to med school, you're probably 22. Free money is largely myth.

 

[HumbleMD]

Though if you made it through undergrad with the help of your parents and didn't have to take out loans, there are a lot of "poorer" students out there who had to run up four years of big debt for their BA and are probably misdirecting their anger at privilaged you.

This is why the begrudgery thing doesn't work.

That's why I put "poor" in quotes, because around on this thread, apparently that's where I'm supposed to put myself because my parents don't pull in a cool million a year, and I'm getting no help from my parents. As you'll see in my previous post, I said I considered myself privileged to make it this far. Also, I would fully acknowledge the difficulties of others who have it worse than me, which some others aren't even willing to do (coughtryingcough).
I'm not looking for free money, it was just the way these financial aid packages have been worded which cover the "need" which they assess, and then leave this EFC figure and assume it will be coming from my parents or some other magical place.

 

[trying]

Also, I would fully acknowledge the difficulties of others who have it worse than me, which some others aren't even willing to do 🙂coughtryingcough🙂.

i acknowledge that people have it far worse than me and far better than me. i just don't understand how thats anybodys elses fault.

 

[Dookter]

why at the system - thats what is going to help you pay for med school. why not at your parents for not saving up for you?

I swear, it's a good thing most people don't think like this. Let's think about the statistics and economics behind such a statement. Most people cannot afford to pay for a medical education for their children, regardless of how much they save. Ruling out a super-human effort like living on rice and riding a bicycle to work for 30 years, it's probably not going to be possible for most families. We're talking around $300-350K for private college and then medical school. And that's just one child! From an economic viewpoint, our economy relies on having such a stratified system. This means that it isn't even economically possible for everyone to "choose" to make enough to put kids through college and medical school, etc. So getting pissed at your parents for not being one of the very few families in this country that actually could save such sums of money while still afforing to live a normal life is probably a very non-productive endeavor. Fortunately for anyone with a delusion of how most families actually live, higher education in general and the medical profession in particular are homogenous enough to make people believe that it's as simple as saving hundreds of thousands of dollars to put your kids through school. For most families it's not that easy.

 

[HumbleMD]

i acknowledge that people have it far worse than me and far better than me. i just don't understand how thats anybodys elses fault.

(Disclaimer, I don't consider myself impoverished) So you're basically saying that you believe everyone starts out from an equal field? That a person coming from an impoverished single-parent family has the exact same opportunities as a wealthy chid who has been spoon-fed a private education? Wow. I didn't know there were people as naive as you still around. Thank god you're going into medicine and not public policy.

 

[notdeadyet]

That's why I put "poor" in quotes, because around on this thread, apparently that's where I'm supposed to put myself because my parents don't pull in a cool million a year, and I'm getting no help from my parents.

Ah. Sorry. Subtlety is often lost on me. You need a hammer with me sometimes...

I'm not looking for free money, it was just the way these financial aid packages have been worded which cover the "need" which they assess, and then leave this EFC figure and assume it will be coming from my parents or some other magical place.

Though parental income is a factor for EFC for undergrad loans, isn't parental income not a factor for EFC for med school? I could be wrong (I'm older, so I know it doesn't apply to my EFC), but I thought EFC was based on your own earnings. Interesting...

 

[trying]

Ruling out a super-human effort like living on rice and riding a bicycle to work for 30 years, it's probably not going to be possible for most families.

way too over exaggerated. my parents did it living a fairly normal, but financially conservative lifestyle.

So getting pissed at your parents for not being one of the very few families in this country that actually could save such sums of money while still afforing to live a normal life is probably a very non-productive endeavor.

but getting pissed at the system and the privileged is?

 

[trying]

(Disclaimer, I don't consider myself impoverished) So you're basically saying that you believe everyone starts out from an equal field? That a person coming from an impoverished single-parent family has the exact same opportunities as a wealthy chid who has been spoon-fed a private education? Wow. I didn't know there were people as naive as you still around. Thank god you're going into medicine and not public policy.

im saying if my parents came from a third world country about twenty years ago and can send me to a private undergrad and medical school, anybody can do it. its a choice you make about how to live your life and what kind of life you want for your kids

consider it a gift that this is maybe one of 5 countries in which no matter what your financial situation is, you can go to school and get whatever degree you want, if you're willing to work for it. its funny that the people who recognize that are accused of being short-sighted and snobby and those who dont, are the ones with the clarity.

 

[Dookter]

way too over exaggerated. my parents did it living a fairly normal, but financially conservative lifestyle.




but getting pissed at the system and the privileged is?

First of all, that's why I said for most families. Look up how much most people make. I'm not talking about the average parental income of your buddies or people on SDN. Saving hundreds of thousands of dollars to give away to each child will not be possible for most people.

Secondly, I never blamed the system. I simply said that blaming your parents would be pretty useless. Talk to Humble about the system...

 

[HumbleMD]

Ah. Sorry. Subtlety is often lost on me. You need a hammer with me sometimes...

Though parental income is a factor for EFC for undergrad loans, isn't parental income not a factor for EFC for med school? I could be wrong (I'm older, so I know it doesn't apply to my EFC), but I thought EFC was based on your own earnings. Interesting...

I wish. WashU said I owe 1500 from my savings and income (tapped out for undergrad, but doable), and then suddenly theres this 36K coming from my Dad's 70K salary...

 

[maestro1625]

first of all: if you have an EFC above 0 on your FAFSA, you probably screwed up somewhere.

secondly, i'm not quite understanding why Humble never sent in a deposit to Wayne if money is now such an issue. With his MCAT, he would have had a very good chance at merit-based scholarships there. I personally know 2 guys on full rides there now.

 

[trying]

Saving hundreds of thousands of dollars to give away to each child will not be possible for most people.

its possible if you want it to be.

if this was a discussion on whether or not any child in america could go to medical school, it would be a hands down consensus that given the right nurturing, school system, support and motivation, that this could happen. EVEN considering the ones with learning disabilties, this would still be the consensus.

shift the argument to providing financial means to send any child in america to medical school and all of a sudden, its "not posible for most people"

the problem is that people in this country don't take responsibility their own financial situation which is why they are chained to it for life.

 

[HumbleMD]

im saying if my parents came from a third world country about twenty years ago and can send me to a private undergrad and medical school, anybody can do it. its a choice you make about how to live your life and what kind of life you want for your kids

consider it a gift that this is maybe one of 5 countries in which no matter what your financial situation is, you can go to school and get whatever degree you want, if you're willing to work for it. its funny that the people who recognize that are accused of being short-sighted and snobby and those who dont, are the ones with the clarity.

I would never claim that there are counties with more opportunity than the U.S. I wouldn't claim the U.S. is perfect either.

As far as immigrants from "third world" countries, I would ask what do your parents do now, and what did they do there? And which country did they come from specifically? Do they own their own business? If so, are you aware that there are federal tax-breaks exclusively for immigrant families, which a those indignat lower and middle class families aren't allowed to partake in? It's one of the best systems out there, but there are still different opportunities for certain people out there. I'm just suprised that there are still people who subscribe to this whole "pull yourself up by the boot-straps" mantra.

 

[HumbleMD]

its possible if you want it to be.

if this was a discussion on whether or not any child in america could go to medical school, it would be a hands down consensus that given the right nurturing, school system, support and motivation, that this could happen. EVEN considering the ones with learning disabilties, this would still be the consensus.

shift the argument to providing financial means to send any child in america to medical school and all of a sudden, its "not posible for most people"

the problem is that people in this country don't take responsibility their own financial situation which is why they are chained to it for life.

And you really think that everyone has been afforded this right nurturing, school system, support and motivation? News flash, not everyone does (I'm incredibly thankful that I did, but I know enough to now that not everyone does).
And the money issue doesn't make things "impossible" just more difficult. And again, as dookter was trying to explain economics to you, you do understand that not everyone in our economy can be at the top of a corporate ladder pulling in a 6 figure income. It takes a large number of minimum wage employees to support that. And do you really believe that a family making minimum wage for their lives can't afford $400,000 for Johnny's education because they blew it on luxury cars and improper planning? Again your naivate shocks me.

 

[trying]

As far as immigrants from "third world" countries, I would ask what do your parents do now, and what did they do there?

my dad worked at a bank as a teller and my mom was a baby sitter.

And which country did they come from specifically?

india

Do they own their own business? If so, are you aware that there are federal tax-breaks exclusively for immigrant families, which a those indignat lower and middle class families aren't allowed to partake in?

yes.
its funny you mention this, since my parents pay about 5X the amount of tax that any other single family pays. they contribute far more to the american economy than most other single families, but the police or fire trucks don't come 5X faster when we call. they're never taken a tax break for immigrants, because they have not estaplished sa LLC or family-run C-class corporation that is classified as a Female and Minority owned business.

I'm just suprised that there are still people who subscribe to this whole "pull yourself up by the boot-straps" mantra.

i'm even more surprised that there are still those who do not.

 

[notdeadyet]

I wish. WashU said I owe 1500 from my savings and income (tapped out for undergrad, but doable), and then suddenly theres this 36K coming from my Dad's 70K salary...

Hmmmm... you might want to look into that. I did a quick hunt on Financial Aid, and all posts have indicated that family income does not adjust your EFC.

This is why parental income is optional for the form, no? Your parents income might make you ineligible for grants/scholarships, but should not affect your EFC.

 

[Dookter]

its possible if you want it to be.

if this was a discussion on whether or not any child in america could go to medical school, it would be a hands down consensus that given the right nurturing, school system, support and motivation, that this could happen. EVEN considering the ones with learning disabilties, this would still be the consensus.

shift the argument to providing financial means to send any child in america to medical school and all of a sudden, its "not posible for most people"

the problem is that people in this country don't take responsibility their own financial situation which is why they are chained to it for life.

You're really preaching to the wrong person. I take more personal responsibility for myself than most of the people I've ever met. The problem with what you're arguing is that it does not represent reality. Most kids do NOT have the right support system, school system, etc. That would be like me saying every single person can have a billion dollars if I give them the means to make a billion dollars.

The same goes for the financial argument. It is TECHNICALLY possible for people to make the right decisions from a young age, get the right job, plan the right way, have kids that are in a position to get into medical school, and then pay for it. But it is realistically impossible for MOST families to do this. There are institutional and social barriers to doing so. Of course it is possible for a lot of families. But certainly not for most people.

Go take econ and sociology classes. If you're already taken them, retake them. I'm getting off of here to stop wasting time....

I should also mention that I don't hate the system at all. I think in most cases it works. My only real point here is that blaming parents for not saving hundreds of thousands of dollars is silly. Such an elitist mentality is disgusting, and I hope you lose it before you get to medical school.

 

[trying]

not everyone in our economy can be at the top of a corporate ladder pulling in a 6 figure income.

i would be willing to bet a lot of money that the parents who are paying their kids med school tuition are NOT pulling in 6 figure incomes. more likely, they are your neighbors who have a ton of money, but didnt go out and buy the house at the top of the hill.

 

[notdeadyet]

I wish. WashU said I owe 1500 from my savings and income (tapped out for undergrad, but doable), and then suddenly theres this 36K coming from my Dad's 70K salary...

Actually, HumbleMD, you should definitely look into this. It doesn't make any sense. My income was more than your father's and my EFC was about $17K (I have no dependents). Something's not right there...

 

[HumbleMD]

my dad worked at a bank as a teller and my mom was a baby sitter.


india



yes.
its funny you mention this, since my parents pay about 5X the amount of tax that any other single family pays. they contribute far more to the american economy than most other single families, but the police or fire trucks don't come 5X faster when we call. they're never taken a tax break for immigrants, because they have not estaplished sa LLC or family-run C-class corporation that is classified as a Female and Minority owned business.


i'm even more surprised that there are still those who do not.

So my question is, did your parents pay for your education in cash up front, or was it in combination with aid from the government? If it's the latter then we all just wasted 20 minutes arguing...

 

[trying]

But it is realistically impossible for MOST families to do this. There are institutional and social barriers to doing so. Of course it is possible for a lot of families. But certainly not for most people.

yeah, so lets just bail out everyone who can't do it for themselves and them blame the system that helps them for making them fill out a form.

 

[trying]

So my question is, did your parents pay for your education in cash up front, or was it in combination with aid from the government? If it's the latter then we all just wasted 20 minutes arguing...

the former.

 

[HumbleMD]

yeah, so lets just bail out everyone who can't do it for themselves and them blame the system that helps them for making them fill out a form.

I wouldn't mind filling out a form if it actually addressed the issue as presented on it.

And congratulations to you and your family for footing the bill on your education. I hope you are thankful enough to realize this is not the situation for a majority of other students.

 

[maestro1625]

the former.

I think it's time to call bull****.

 

[trying]

And congratulations to you and your family for footing the bill on your education. I hope you are thankful enough to realize this is not the situation for a majority of other students.

congratulations to you for getting the money from the government. either way, we both made it. im thankful for my parents for doing it.

 

[45408]

Are people really going to hate me because my parents are putting me through med school? They saved money planning for both my brother and I to go to college and then some type of grad school since we were born. In turn, both of us plan to help provide for them to live well when they retire. One of the people at second look weekend asked me if I'd filled out the fafsa because that day was the deadline...and I lied and said I had because I didn't want to say "no my parents are paying." But now onwards I think I'm just going to tell the truth and say "I am fortunate that my parents are paying for school" or something along those lines. I don't try to flaunt anything, but its just how it is, please don't hate me for it.

It's not hate, because most (or all) of us would take the money if it were offered, but if you flaunt it or brag about it, you're not going to have any friends. Anytime you point out to someone that you have something that they don't (and that they would like), it's not a good thing.

Rather than saying "Oh, yeah, my parents just cut a check each semester," try saying something like "Well, my parents are helping me out."

 

[HumbleMD]

congratulations to you for getting the money from the government. either way, we both made it. im thankful for my parents for doing it.

Oh no worries. I'll be paying it back to them, with interest, for a lifetime.

 

[45408]

Though parental income is a factor for EFC for undergrad loans, isn't parental income not a factor for EFC for med school? I could be wrong (I'm older, so I know it doesn't apply to my EFC), but I thought EFC was based on your own earnings. Interesting...

The EFC for med school is not based on your parents' earnings, but scholarships, institutional aid, etc., usually do ask about your parents' income. That's the "free money." I know someone who is getting a 50% discount on med school - it's that kind of thing that often asks about your parents' income (not in that particular case).

 

[45408]

its possible if you want it to be.

No, it's not. I know plenty of people who are just barely making it along, and they honestly wouldn't know how to save up $10,000, let alone $200,000, no matter how badly they wanted it.

 

[trying]

No, it's not. I know plenty of people who are just barely making it along, and they honestly wouldn't know how to save up $10,000, let alone $200,000, no matter how badly they wanted it.

then they should learn how to if they want to. im aware of several financial literacy programs where i live, which happens to be an incredibly conservative part of the country. people are willing to help those who want help. this is the problem: we just write people off as "not being able to" instead of helping them do it. teach a man how to fish.....

 

[NightDoctor]

isnt this just a fact of life? some people are rich, some are poor. some rich people are good, some are bad. some poor people are good, some are bad. despising somebody because they were born rich is like despising someone because of their skin color, height, etc... the person born has no control over it. despising someone for being a jerk - well that's a different story

 

[gujuDoc]

isnt this just a fact of life? some people are rich, some are poor. some rich people are good, some are bad. some poor people are good, some are bad. despising somebody because they were born rich is like despising someone because of their skin color, height, etc... the person born has no control over it. despising someone for being a jerk - well that's a different story

Yeah that's prcisely the point I brought up in a few of my posts on the previous pages of this thread before it turned into a full out war between a few posters!!


I don't have a problem with rich people or poor people if their values are good and they are decent humble human beings. If they act like dinguses however well that's another story.

 

[microgal]

why at the system - thats what is going to help you pay for med school. why not at your parents for not saving up for you?

Ever think the argument between you two (HumbleMD and Trying) might be based more on cultural differences between your parents than either of you realize? Flame me if you wish but I think both of you are being slightly naive. Trying, not all families will ever be in a situation to save 250,000, this is not a moral judgement that you can make. Humble, why are you suprised that people still ascribe to the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality"? 1st generation immigrant families come to America for just this reason, because they might actually have greater opportunites than they did in their home country. American's might not believe in it any more, but in my experience many immigrant families, especially Indian/Asian definitely do.

 

[45408]

then they should learn how to if they want to. im aware of several financial literacy programs where i live, which happens to be an incredibly conservative part of the country. people are willing to help those who want help. this is the problem: we just write people off as "not being able to" instead of helping them do it. teach a man how to fish.....

They don't know how to go about learning how to. It's all well and good to teach a man to fish, but that man has to know where to go to be taught how to fish, or it doesn't matter. It amazes me how a lot of people don't realize that there really are people who are unintelligent and uneducated. Period. I've worked with people who have minimal education, and quite honestly, they're not very bright. That doesn't stop them from having children though (people with serious mental illness have children as well), and the idea of saving up $100,000 is completely absurd. A few, or even a lot, of stories about hard-working immigrant parents sending their child to Harvard doesn't mean that everyone can do that.

 

[microgal]

isnt this just a fact of life? some people are rich, some are poor. some rich people are good, some are bad. some poor people are good, some are bad. despising somebody because they were born rich is like despising someone because of their skin color, height, etc... the person born has no control over it. despising someone for being a jerk - well that's a different story

Exactly. Despise someone for being a jacka** not for having money. There are people from all walks of life in med school. Let's try not to hate each other too quickly.


HumbleMD....I'm sure that statement was way too rainbows and blutterflies for you, but what can I say, you were obviously not born and raised in sunny california.🙄 (no offense)

 

[trying]

Ever think the argument between you two (HumbleMD and Trying) might be based more on cultural differences between your parents than either of you realize? Flame me if you wish but I think both of you are being slightly naive. Trying, not all families will ever be in a situation to save 250,000, this is not a moral judgement that you can make. Humble, why are you suprised that people still ascribe to the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality"? 1st generation immigrant families come to America for just this reason, because they might actually have greater opportunites than they did in their home country. American's might not believe in it any more, but in my experience many immigrant families, especially Indian/Asian definitely do.

well, i pointed out that my parents were born in india and my culture is a blend of many cultures. humble - care to share your background?

microgal - i know this may be a more popular assumption, that not all families can, but i still can't agree that if you want it, you can't have it. maybe thats becacuse of the way i was brought up, or maybe i watch too many nike ads.

 

[gujuDoc]

They don't know how to go about learning how to. It's all well and good to teach a man to fish, but that man has to know where to go to be taught how to fish, or it doesn't matter. It amazes me how a lot of people don't realize that there really are people who are unintelligent and uneducated. Period. I've worked with people who have minimal education, and quite honestly, they're not very bright. That doesn't stop them from having children though (people with serious mental illness have children as well), and the idea of saving up $100,000 is completely absurd. A few, or even a lot, of stories about hard-working immigrant parents sending their child to Harvard doesn't mean that everyone can do that.

Good post. I'd like to add one thing to this....

Even if these same unintelligent people had the potential to become intelligent and educate themselves, they dont' always use it.

Should a student be faulted for their parents decisions?? A student is not in charge of the decisions their parents make.

In my culture, parents will pay for education. HOWEVER, in many American families, parents live by the philosophy that when a child is 18 they are no longer legally responsible for them. My mom's old manager was an example of this. He ex manager where she used to work said that when the kids turned 18 she was no longer paying for them and they could pretty much find their own way. It is not the student's fault if they have to pay their own way. Not all parents are generous even if they have the money and not all parents have the money.

 

[maestro1625]

then they should learn how to if they want to. im aware of several financial literacy programs where i live, which happens to be an incredibly conservative part of the country. people are willing to help those who want help. this is the problem: we just write people off as "not being able to" instead of helping them do it. teach a man how to fish.....

as much as I hate to come to the defense of Humble, who tends to act like a douche on these boards... you my friend, are a complete *****. To suggest that someone should be angry at their parents for not saving enough money for med school just reeks of a character from "my super sweet 16". My parents are paying for part of my tuition, but that's mainly because most of my undergrad was covered in scholarships and we had some saved money left over. However, I never expected any such payment (I actually didnt know about it until a few months ago), nor should anyone really. It's always amazing when the kids who have everything handed to them do the most lecturing about "pulling yourself up."

 

[trying]

They don't know how to go about learning how to. It's all well and good to teach a man to fish, but that man has to know where to go to be taught how to fish, or it doesn't matter. It amazes me how a lot of people don't realize that there really are people who are unintelligent and uneducated. Period. I've worked with people who have minimal education, and quite honestly, they're not very bright. That doesn't stop them from having children though (people with serious mental illness have children as well), and the idea of saving up $100,000 is completely absurd. A few, or even a lot, of stories about hard-working immigrant parents sending their child to Harvard doesn't mean that everyone can do that.

i mean its amazing that they learned how to breathe, talk and find food to eat. i think we all should be happy they learned how to tie their shoes (most of them) lets not underestimate people too much.

 

[trying]

as much as I hate to come to the defense of Humble, who tends to act like a douche on these boards... you my friend, are a complete *****. "

you make some well founded points.