Rights to diversity of gender expression in OMM lab

[adrenocorticotropicana]

I’m sitting in on an OMM class + lab section at a local osteopathic medical school. I’ve fallen in love with OMT and I think it's extremely useful and would pick up a lot of physiological causes of seemingly nonspecific complaints that MDs usually dismiss — especially in women or other patient populations who have serious complaints that systematically go untreated.


What's wild for me is that students examine each other with the examinee being half-naked. Female-presenting students generally wear a sports bra while male-presenting students are topless. This is because the posterior ribs and spine are often examined.


But I wouldn't want to wear a bra just to go to class — I'm autistic and bras are physically uncomfortable. Bras are for formal events like interviews. Most first-year medical students don’t seem have to dress formally to class at this local school. It seems so unfair that men don't have to wear bras for class and women do. And what about pre-mastectomy trans men, who must bind their chest?

According to the laws of my state and my city, women have legal equality to men as far as dress code. Would female students be disciplined for not wearing a bra to OMM lab, or if they were, wouldn’t this be illegal under Title IX and the laws of my state?

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[Angus Avagadro]

Dress in OMM has come up in the past and my NMM colleagues address it on an individual basis. Concerns about modesty and religious beliefs would be an example. I have never heard of a case where both parties could not reach an accomodation. Good luck and best wishes

 

[Goro]

I’m sitting in on an OMM class + lab section at a local osteopathic medical school. I’ve fallen in love with OMT and I think it's extremely useful and would pick up a lot of physiological causes of seemingly nonspecific complaints that MDs usually dismiss — especially in women or other patient populations who have serious complaints that systematically go untreated.


What's wild for me is that students examine each other with the examinee being half-naked. Female-presenting students generally wear a sports bra while male-presenting students are topless. This is because the posterior ribs and spine are often examined.


But I wouldn't want to wear a bra just to go to class — I'm autistic and bras are physically uncomfortable. Bras are for formal events like interviews. Most first-year medical students don’t seem have to dress formally to class at this local school. It seems so unfair that men don't have to wear bras for class and women do. And what about pre-mastectomy trans men, who must bind their chest?

According to the laws of my state and my city, women have legal equality to men as far as dress code. Would female students be disciplined for not wearing a bra to OMM lab, or if they were, wouldn’t this be illegal under Title IX and the laws of my state?

Why didn't you ask any of the OMM faculty?

 

[Reverb]

There are a few women in my class who choose to remain clothed but typically only for religious reasons (e.g. hijab and abaya). Ideally your course director shouldn't have a problem with you keeping a shirt on if you talk to them. However, I would also urge you to take into consideration the learning experience for your partner/classmates in OMM. It's awesome that you have developed an appreciation for OMT! But, keep in mind that it would be more difficult for your partner (who may also share a passion for OMT) to truly get the most out of their OMM lab experience without being able to identify key landmarks, become familiarized with fascial and tissue textures, etc. Although it sounds like you only wear bras at formal events, I would encourage you to entertain the idea of OMM being one of those formal events and invest in a sports bra. After all, it may be the most important aspect of a DO's training in regards to unique abilities that set us apart from our MD colleagues. If the issue is feeling uncomfortable wearing a bra or sports bra around your classmates, talk to your OMM faculty.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

I guess what I'm asking is -- if men can be bare-chested, why can't female students with autism assert that right? Many of my female friends with autism find them extremely physically uncomfortable.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

Why didn't you ask any of the OMM faculty?

I'm premed, not a medical student, and I didn't want to be seen as a troublemaker when I definitely don't have a right to be in this class. However, if I were a medical student, I would struggle with the question of how to assert rights to gender expression and equality.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

There are a few women in my class who choose to remain clothed but typically only for religious reasons (e.g. hijab and abaya). Ideally your course director shouldn't have a problem with you keeping a shirt on if you talk to them. However, I would also urge you to take into consideration the learning experience for your partner/classmates in OMM. It's awesome that you have developed an appreciation for OMT! But, keep in mind that it would be more difficult for your partner (who may also share a passion for OMT) to truly get the most out of their OMM lab experience without being able to identify key landmarks, become familiarized with fascial and tissue textures, etc. Although it sounds like you only wear bras at formal events, I would encourage you to entertain the idea of OMM being one of those formal events and invest in a sports bra. After all, it may be the most important aspect of a DO's training in regards to unique abilities that set us apart from our MD colleagues. If the issue is feeling uncomfortable wearing a bra or sports bra around your classmates, talk to your OMM faculty.

I don't think you understood my question -- I would rather not wear a bra or a shirt, if men are allowed to do so. See THE PEOPLE &C., RESPONDENT, v. RAMONA SANTORELLI AND MARY LOU SCHLOSS, APPELLANTS, ET AL., DEFENDANTS.

 

[Shotapp]

If I am reading your post right, you're advocating that during omm females shouldn't have to wear bras since men are not required to do so? You're a trans female correct? You should speak for yourself. No competent female in their right mind would support your position. This thread is crazy...

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

Many of my queer women friends dislike bras — they’re very heteronormative. When did you speak for all women? It’s not crazy if men are allowed to do so. See again the above legal case in the New York Supreme Court. We also have legal right to gender expression: I can dress like a guy if I want to. In particular, many queer women do so.

 

[Reverb]

I don't think you understood my question -- I would rather not wear a bra or a shirt, if men are allowed to do so. See THE PEOPLE &C., RESPONDENT, v. RAMONA SANTORELLI AND MARY LOU SCHLOSS, APPELLANTS, ET AL., DEFENDANTS.

Hmm, I see. Exposed breasts wouldn't be an option. In my state, this is indecent exposure. Not to mention an institutional violation. Just stick with keeping your shirt on. Best of luck to you with the application process!

 

[Blanky]

No competent female in their right mind would support your position. This thread is crazy...

Bold of you to speak for so many others...

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

Hmm, I see. Exposed breasts wouldn't be an option. In my state, this is indecent exposure. Not to mention an institutional violation. Just stick with keeping your shirt on. Best of luck to you with the application process!

What makes male breasts decent but female breasts indecent? That unnecessarily objectifies and sexualizes the female body. That’s why New York State rejects this line of reasoning. What about male boobs due to gynecomastia — why is that more “decent”? What makes men’s bodies inherently more decent than women’s bodies?

 

[Chibucks15]

What makes male breasts decent but female breasts indecent? That unnecessarily objectifies and sexualizes the female body. That’s why New York State rejects this line of reasoning. What about male boobs due to gynecomastia — why is that more “decent”? What makes men’s bodies inherently more decent than women’s bodies?

Several things. 1, you take offense to literally everything. I understand you are a unique situation but you don't have a right to tell other people how to act, and literally no one has said anything about bodies being "more decent". 2, whether you like it or not, cultural norms state that women cover their breasts. That's just how it is. If you think for a second that any OMM department will allow barechested females in the lab you're sorely mistaken. In a class that already is high liability due to inappropriate touching (look up past lawsuits), it makes zero sense to allow it, if anything but purely liability. Medicine itself is one of the most conservative fields there is, and not wearing a bra for an hour a week because its uncomfortable is a strange hill to die on. While its more comfortable to you, it is detrimental to almost everyone else due to societal norms that almost all of us have been raised on. I'm not talking about just men, I can guarantee you women would feel uncomfortable as well. As people have said, most schools don't require being shirtless, so it is a moot point.

Seriously you create all these threads about these kind of things when it really isn't all that common in a medical school setting. Get into medical school first then go to your OMM department, and ask them about specific situations. There are no rules about these sorts of things because this is a relatively new thing in the world, so I have zero clue about what you're asking of people on here, and what you expect.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

whether you like it or not, cultural norms state that women cover their breasts.

That's norm originates in sexual objectification of the human body. Otherwise, why is a female breast seen as indecent?

 

[Shotapp]

In a class that already is high liability due to inappropriate touching (look up past lawsuits), it makes zero sense to allow it, if anything but purely liability. Medicine itself is one of the most conservative fields there is, and not wearing a bra for an hour a week because its uncomfortable is a strange hill to die on.

This!

 

[Chibucks15]

That's norm originates in sexual objectification of the human body. Otherwise, why is a female breast seen as indecent?

Again, whatever the origination of the norm, it still is the norm, and can and will make people uncomfortable and be detrimental to the learning environment. It goes back to the point that just because you have a unique situation, which I completely respect, it gives you absolutely zero right to tell other people, your future colleagues, what they can and cannot be comfortable with and what they have to deal with to learn. None of us are that special. That's part of the deal so apply to school as you please, but I'm just telling you how it will most likely go for you

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

So transwomen must cover their chests, but transmen with boobs must also — but not cismen with boobs. From what medical basis is this argued?

 

[Chibucks15]

So transwomen must cover their chests, but transmen with boobs must also — but not cismen with boobs. From what medical basis is this argued?

It isnt a medical basis. It is a social, learning environment basis. Most of the time both situations would be covered...like I said its not the norm to be naked in lab. Do your own research, and if you don't agree with a schools mindset, then dont apply. You aren't special enough to warrant an entire school changing its policies. Until we get out of school, you're a cog in the machine. Sorry to break it to you

 

[Shotapp]

Bold of you to speak for so many others...

I don't believe what I said was a bold or blanket statement at all. I was speaking specifically about females not wearing bras in an OMM setting where males will be present and there is a high possibility that unwanted touching may occur.

 

[676188]

OP, I do not have an answer to your question, but I would like to state that as a straight, cis woman, I would not go topless in a medical school class (or any class, for that matter, or out in public).

Just offering one woman’s opinion on this.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

Medically, on a cell by cell basis, what makes the male chest more decent than the female chest? Why would my chest make my classmates uncomfortable, but a guy's chest would not?

Guys are revealing the exact same place on their body. In many cases they have breasts also. Why aren't they deemed naked?

 

[Chibucks15]

Medically, on a cell by cell basis, what makes the male chest more decent than the female chest? Why would my chest make my classmates uncomfortable, but a guy's chest would not?

Guys are revealing the exact same place on their body. In many cases they have breasts also. Why aren't they deemed naked?

See my other post. This is how people are. You can't tell people how they should feel. End of thread

 

[676188]

Medically, on a cell by cell basis, what makes the male chest more decent than the female chest? Why would my chest make my classmates uncomfortable, but a guy's chest would not?

It doesn’t from a medical, cell-by-cell basis.

My decision mentioned above would be for my own comfort. I would not feel comfortable exposing my chest to a room full of strangers, and I do know males who feel the same way. Others prefer not to expose their legs, or other body parts.

And I agree with chibucks15. Even if you think someone’s feelings or reasoning is ridiculous, you don’t get to dictate how others should feel.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

See my other post. This is how people are. You can't tell people how they should feel. End of thread

They're in medical school -- feelings and emotions don't trump New York State gender equality laws. They're medical students, not snowflakes.

 

[Chibucks15]

They're in medical school -- feelings don't trump New York State gender equality law. They're medical students, not snowflakes.

Same goes for you. You aren't even a medical student yet. That may be the law in New York but it isn't almost everywhere else. Your feelings don't trump everyone elses either, so I suggest asking your specific program if you get in.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

And I agree with chibucks15. Even if you think someone’s feelings or reasoning is ridiculous, you don’t get to dictate how others should feel.

So the feelings of antifeminist students should be considered, but apparently we should just reject the feelings of sexual assault survivors. So when are feelings important again?

 

[676188]

So the feelings of antifeminist students should be considered, but apparently we should just reject the feelings of sexual assault survivors. So when are feelings important again?

How did you get that anti feminists feelings should be considered and the feelings of sexual assault survivors should be rejected from my statement that one person cannot dictate the feelings of another?

 

[Chibucks15]

So the feelings of antifeminist students should be considered, but apparently we should just reject the feelings of sexual assault survivors. So when are feelings important again?

I'm done with this. Good luck getting into medical school with this attitude. I said zero about sexual assault survivors. You're moving the goalposts. I said you can't just request to be shirtless because you want to. It just doesn't work like that. For the 4th time....try to get into school first then ask your department and work with them. Mods please close this nonsense

 

[Shotapp]

So the feelings of antifeminist students should be considered, but apparently we should just reject the feelings of sexual assault survivors. So when are feelings important again?

What are you talking about lol?

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

That may be the law in New York but it isn't almost everywhere else. Your feelings don't trump everyone elses either, so I suggest asking your specific program if you get in.

This is actually the law in the majority of states. 33 out of 50 states. 14 states have ambiguous legal status and 3 states explicitly restrict women in this area.

 

[adrenocorticotropicana]

I'm done with this. Good luck getting into medical school with this attitude. I said zero about sexual assault survivors. You're moving the goalposts. I said you can't just request to be shirtless because you want to. It just doesn't work like that. For the 4th time....try to get into school first then ask your department and work with them. Mods please close this nonsense

I'm referring to the other thread, where a female sexual assault survivor got shut down because people told her that since she's in medical school, her feelings shouldn't matter.

 

[gyngyn]

Closing.