Risks of a New Program - inaugural class

[hallowmann]

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OK, so I've been looking for threads that talk about this, but the only ones I can find are school specific, old, or in the allo forum, so I figured I'd throw this out there given the 3 new programs this year.

What are people's opinions of the risk for attending a new DO program? Specifically risks of being in the inaugural class. Rotations? Residency connections? etc.

Obviously, if I only get into a new program I'm going there, but say you have 2 acceptances from one new school that you overall like and another established school that is OK (atmosphere, etc), what would you look at to make your decision? Take a school like WCU or Marian vs. something like NYCOM or LECOM.

If anyone is/was part of the inaugural class of a DO school, I'd love to hear about their experience.

 

[Goro]

Having been there, the risks of a new school is that it takes time for the faculty and administration to figure out what works best. However, it also helps them avoid what I call the "PCOM syndrome", which is "that's how we've always done it and so we're not going to change."

So new programs have the ability to turn on a dime.


I can also tell you, at least for MarionCom, is that those people know exactly what they're doing. Most of the senior administration have been at or even started other DO programs.

COCA, the accrediting body for the COMs, is more rigorous these days. The days of "let's open a new DO school" with little oversight are now over.

OK, so I've been looking for threads that talk about this, but the only ones I can find are school specific, old, or in the allo forum, so I figured I'd throw this out there.

What are people's opinions of the risk for attending a new DO program? Specifically risks of being in the inaugural class. Rotations? Residency connections? etc.

Obviously, if I only get into a new program I'm going there, but say you have 2 acceptances from one new school that you overall like and another established school that is OK (atmosphere, etc), what would you look at to make your decision? Take a school like WCU or Marian vs. something like NYCOM or LECOM.

If anyone is/was part of the inaugural class of a DO school, I'd love to hear about their experience.

 

[hallowmann]

Having been there, the risks of a new school is that it takes time for the faculty and administration to figure out what works best. However, it also helps them avoid what I call the "PCOM syndrome", which is "that's how we've always done it and so we're not going to change."

So new programs have the ability to turn on a dime.


I can also tell you, at least for MarionCom, is that those people know exactly what they're doing. Most of the senior administration have been at or even started other DO programs.

COCA, the accrediting body for the COMs, is more rigorous these days. The days of "let's open a new DO school" with little oversight are now over.

I appreciate your reply Goro, since I'm sure you have much more experience in this than anyone else.

I have no doubt that Marian will be very impressive, and I'm sure all the new programs will be successful. I guess I'm more curious about the uncertainty of the variety of rotations sites and the match. I know that the reputation of schools makes a difference to PDs (mainly their own experience with alumni from your school). I just wonder if that has been a non-issue for people in inaugural classes.

Obviously there are a lot of benefits to being in an inaugural class, namely the ability to shape the school, clubs, and program and also I've heard that the faculty and staff are especially invested in you and your success (hopefully true at any good school).

 

[Bacchus]

Having been there, the risks of a new school is that it takes time for the faculty and administration to figure out what works best. However, it also helps them avoid what I call the "PCOM syndrome", which is "that's how we've always done it and so we're not going to change."

So new programs have the ability to turn on a dime.


I can also tell you, at least for MarionCom, is that those people know exactly what they're doing. Most of the senior administration have been at or even started other DO programs.

COCA, the accrediting body for the COMs, is more rigorous these days. The days of "let's open a new DO school" with little oversight are now over.

1) OUCH! That hurt a bit. PCOM syndrome 🙁
2) There have finally been changes, although hard to get to the curriculum to promote better outcomes on the boards and 2nd year, last term exams.
3) Dr. Kuchera has gone to Marian from PCOM. He's an OMM god. They got a good guy that's going to make them a really strong OMM department.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

3) Dr. Kuchera has gone to Marian from PCOM. He's an OMM god. They got a good guy that's going to make them a really strong OMM department.

 

[MedPR]

I didn't know you chose Marian.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

I didn't know you chose Marian.

Yessir...bringing the Force to Indianapolis.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

OK, so I've been looking for threads that talk about this, but the only ones I can find are school specific, old, or in the allo forum, so I figured I'd throw this out there given the 3 new programs this year.

What are people's opinions of the risk for attending a new DO program? Specifically risks of being in the inaugural class. Rotations? Residency connections? etc.

Obviously, if I only get into a new program I'm going there, but say you have 2 acceptances from one new school that you overall like and another established school that is OK (atmosphere, etc), what would you look at to make your decision? Take a school like WCU or Marian vs. something like NYCOM or LECOM.

If anyone is/was part of the inaugural class of a DO school, I'd love to hear about their experience.

Me and many of my future classmates at Marian University COM, were accepted to other more established schools as well. To make my decision, I narrowed down the schools by looking at things like hospital affiliations for rotations /faculty /facilities /curriculum/location/policies/general feel during the interview and with the interactions I had with the school throughout the app cycle. Once I had a manageable list of schools, I then created a pros and cons board and weighted each item I placed on the board (and I put everything I could think of on there) depending on its importance to me. So as you can see, I treated the schools the same based on the information I had available to me (ignoring SDN neuroticism)...and like Goro stated, MU really has their act together, so there was plenty of pertinent information available to us...which they are still providing to us via weekly/bi-weekly newsletters.

I was accepted to one of the other new schools as well (declined my interview to the third solely because it was too rural for me). There was a notable difference between the two new schools that I was accepted to in regards to organization and general smoothness of how things operated. On one hand there was MU-COM who was honestly more efficient through the app process than most of the established schools I was accepted to (so it might not be fair to compare the two)...and on the other hand, new school #2 just seemed to take longer to get information out/get things up and running--wasn't too bad, but just incomparable to MU's swagger.

Regarding residencies and rotation, I can't speak for some of the schools that are a year or two in, but the three new programs seem to have great opportunities for rotations and networking. MU-COM is the second medical school in IN, so there is tremendous support and backing for the school. The cooperation with huge/excellent health networks and research affiliates (in Indianapolis to boot!) is outstanding. These affiliate hospitals like St. Vincent Health have multiple residency programs. One of the other large health networks actually has an osteopathic hospital (also in the city), which I liked. Also, the only other med school (IU) seems to be very DO friendly across many residency specialties. Looks like we may be sharing some faculty with with IU SoM as well. I could go on and on about MU-COM...every correspondence I have with them reassures me that I made the right decision.

So as I can't tell you about my experience because the class hasn't started yet, I can tell you that I honestly believe that (just like deciding between any other school) it comes down to a personal choice based on what you experienced with each program. Not what US news says, or the gunners on SDN. I am sure that some people have awful experiences being in an inaugural class...sucks, but there are people that have poor experiences at established schools as well. I may end up regretting my decision in the future...but that could probably be said if I was to attend any other school too. Like you mentioned, there are many positives aspects to being part of an inaugural class. Where you end up after med school is ultimately up to you...although I am confident that MU-COM will do everything they can to help get us there.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Mr. Kenobi you have the right attitude, and you will succeed. Go in with an open mind and work hard, and you will define your future, not the other way around; good luck!

 

[darklabel]

This is one of my favorite post from Mr. Kenobi.

 

[hallowmann]

Me and many of my future classmates at Marian University COM, were accepted to other more established schools as well. To make my decision, I narrowed down the schools by looking at things like hospital affiliations for rotations /faculty /facilities /curriculum/location/policies/general feel during the interview and with the interactions I had with the school throughout the app cycle. Once I had a manageable list of schools, I then created a pros and cons board and weighted each item I placed on the board (and I put everything I could think of on there) depending on its importance to me. So as you can see, I treated the schools the same based on the information I had available to me (ignoring SDN neuroticism)...and like Goro stated, MU really has their act together, so there was plenty of pertinent information available to us...which they are still providing to us via weekly/bi-weekly newsletter...

Thanks Mr. Kenobi. It definitely helps, I'm waiting on decisions, so we'll see if I will have to make a similar board for myself.

 

[NontradCA]

 

[GypsyHummus]

Me and many of my future classmates at Marian University COM, were accepted to other more established schools as well. To make my decision, I narrowed down the schools by looking at things like hospital affiliations for rotations /faculty /facilities /curriculum/location/policies/general feel during the interview and with the interactions I had with the school throughout the app cycle. Once I had a manageable list of schools, I then created a pros and cons board and weighted each item I placed on the board (and I put everything I could think of on there) depending on its importance to me. So as you can see, I treated the schools the same based on the information I had available to me (ignoring SDN neuroticism)...and like Goro stated, MU really has their act together, so there was plenty of pertinent information available to us...which they are still providing to us via weekly/bi-weekly newsletters.

I was accepted to one of the other new schools as well (declined my interview to the third solely because it was too rural for me). There was a notable difference between the two new schools that I was accepted to in regards to organization and general smoothness of how things operated. On one hand there was MU-COM who was honestly more efficient through the app process than most of the established schools I was accepted to (so it might not be fair to compare the two)...and on the other hand, new school #2 just seemed to take longer to get information out/get things up and running--wasn't too bad, but just incomparable to MU's swagger.

Regarding residencies and rotation, I can't speak for some of the schools that are a year or two in, but the three new programs seem to have great opportunities for rotations and networking. MU-COM is the second medical school in IN, so there is tremendous support and backing for the school. The cooperation with huge/excellent health networks and research affiliates (in Indianapolis to boot!) is outstanding. These affiliate hospitals like St. Vincent Health have multiple residency programs. One of the other large health networks actually has an osteopathic hospital (also in the city), which I liked. Also, the only other med school (IU) seems to be very DO friendly across many residency specialties. Looks like we may be sharing some faculty with with IU SoM as well. I could go on and on about MU-COM...every correspondence I have with them reassures me that I made the right decision.

So as I can't tell you about my experience because the class hasn't started yet, I can tell you that I honestly believe that (just like deciding between any other school) it comes down to a personal choice based on what you experienced with each program. Not what US news says, or the gunners on SDN. I am sure that some people have awful experiences being in an inaugural class...sucks, but there are people that have poor experiences at established schools as well. I may end up regretting my decision in the future...but that could probably be said if I was to attend any other school too. Like you mentioned, there are many positives aspects to being part of an inaugural class. Where you end up after med school is ultimately up to you...although I am confident that MU-COM will do everything they can to help get us there.

I really hate to be "that guy", and you know I love your witty star wars banter, but I dont think that the force is with this one.

I have a very good friend who was recently accepted to IU's medical school. From what he was explaining to me, Indiana in general does not seem to be very "DO" friendly. I have a feeling that graduates from Marian are going to be viewed as people who couldn't get into IU med (which for the most part seems to be true from what I have observed). Now, if you are out of state or not planning to practice in Indiana, then I doubt that it will matter.

Furthermore, I have a feeling that the more competitive residencies at IU med will be reserved for the IU students. What I dont understand is why if the mission of the school (Marian) is to provide doctors to indiana, why they just dont become an in state school?

 

[GUH]

What I dont understand is why if the mission of the school is to provide doctors to indiana, why they just dont become an in state school?

What do you even mean by that? It's not like a school can just say, "we have medical school now give us taxpayer moneys plz"

 

[Mosonik]

I really hate to be "that guy", and you know I love your witty star wars banter, but I dont think that the force is with this one.

I have a very good friend who was recently accepted to IU's medical school. From what he was explaining to me, Indiana in general does not seem to be very "DO" friendly. I have a feeling that graduates from Marian are going to be viewed as people who couldn't get into IU med (which for the most part seems to be true from what I have observed). Now, if you are out of state or not planning to practice in Indiana, then I doubt that it will matter.

Furthermore, I have a feeling that the more competitive residencies at IU med will be reserved for the IU students. What I dont understand is why if the mission of the school (Marian) is to provide doctors to indiana, why they just dont become an in state school?

Your thoughts are all over the place in this post, I have trouble seeing what you are getting at.
I have to disagree though, I don't speak with any more authority, only as one speaking with familiarity to Indiana and IU, Indiana is quite DO friendly. It helps that it borders Michigan and Ohio which are two of the most DO friendly in the entire nation.

 

[HalfListic]

Having been there, the risks of a new school is that it takes time for the faculty and administration to figure out what works best. However, it also helps them avoid what I call the "PCOM syndrome", which is "that's how we've always done it and so we're not going to change."

So new programs have the ability to turn on a dime.


I can also tell you, at least for MarionCom, is that those people know exactly what they're doing. Most of the senior administration have been at or even started other DO programs.

COCA, the accrediting body for the COMs, is more rigorous these days. The days of "let's open a new DO school" with little oversight are now over.

And there you have it. From an Adcom.

This has been the experience of everyone I've spoken with too who has had anything to do with MUCOM. They have hit the ground running, have a big and quality hospital network (check out St Vincents if you'd like...very nice).

The dean opened PCOM-ga, the faculty are seasoned/top notch, the didactic curriculum reflects the carnegie reform report and seems pretty dang solid...and the schedule? There is so much time for study, while still getting in all the class time needed.

And as far an Indy being DO friendly? Its not only DO friendly (it has a large DO hospital that you can throw a rock at from MUCOM...not that you should 😉 ), But its healthcare and bioscience friendly. You cant get a much better city for a med school, DO or MD. The school received funding, millions and millions, from hospitals and community businesses. Not MUCOM paying hospitals to train their students, Hospitals and local business giving MILLIONS to make sure MUCOM is an attractive place for top notch students. And then they are trying really hard to make sure to expand residency slots in Indy to entice them to stay.

MUCOM and Indy are going to be a great addition to the DO and healthcare world.

So, yeah, I guess I just echo Goro...make sure things feel in order, and not in chaos, and that you feel that you fit in to your school (if you have a choice). There will positives and negatives to any and all schools.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Your thoughts are all over the place in this post, I have trouble seeing what you are getting at.
I have to disagree though, I don't speak with any more authority, only as one speaking with familiarity to Indiana and IU, Indiana is quite DO friendly. It helps that it borders Michigan and Ohio which are two of the most DO friendly in the entire nation.

Sorry, I'll try to explain:

I understand why out of state students would go to MUCOM, its just like any other private school, but I dont understand why in state students would. Also, if Indiana has a physician shortage, wouldnt the medical school tied to the state deal with that issue? I would understand if MUCOM was a state supported school, then It would make sense, but if MUCOM is trying to ease the doctor shortage in IN, why not become a state school? I really dont know how it works in Indy, I dont live there.

And as far as not being very DO friendly, the only medical school in the state, as far as I am aware, is a MD school. My feeling is that it will harbor animosity between students in state and future coworkers. With state DO schools, it tends to be different:Ohio and MSUCOM have their own residencies, and in competitive specialties. With MUCOM, it seems like they will be trying to mooch off of IU spots. How would you feel if you were at Ohio state Med school and had to share all the residencies with Ohio University students? Or MSUCOM mooched off of University of Michigan's residencies?

So i dont think their cause is as noble as they claim. I dont see LECOM having a mission to provide more doctors in the state, or any of the other private schools. And why in the world would IU hospitals want to share with MUCOM students? IU hospitals has obligations to their students, do they not?

And lastly, why Marian for a new medical school? From what I understand there are a plethora of other choices. Notre Dame is in Indiana, so is Purdue; both are top ranked schools. How kickass would it be to have Purdue University College of Osteopathic Medicine (Family went to purdue lol, boiler up!). Idk, something doesnt seem right/fishy with all of this, I think $$$ had something to do with it.

 

[pre med 2014]

Do DO inaugural class students pay tuition or get any kind or reduced rate?

 

[113]

Do DO inaugural class students pay tuition or get any kind or reduced rate?

Not at MUCOM. $65K CoA.
http://www2.marian.edu/osteopathic-...ions/FinancialAid/Pages/TuitionandBudget.aspx

 

[HalfListic]

Sorry, I'll try to explain:

I understand why out of state students would go to MUCOM, its just like any other private school, but I dont understand why in state students would. Also, if Indiana has a physician shortage, wouldnt the medical school tied to the state deal with that issue? I would understand if MUCOM was a state supported school, then It would make sense, but if MUCOM is trying to ease the doctor shortage in IN, why not become a state school? I really dont know how it works in Indy, I dont live there.

Because you cant just become a state school. Also, not sure how that would help ease the shortage any more.

And as far as not being very DO friendly, the only medical school in the state, as far as I am aware, is a MD school. My feeling is that it will harbor animosity between students in state and future coworkers. With state DO schools, it tends to be different:Ohio and MSUCOM have their own residencies, and in competitive specialties. With MUCOM, it seems like they will be trying to mooch off of IU spots. How would you feel if you were at Ohio state Med school and had to share all the residencies with Ohio University students? Or MSUCOM mooched off of University of Michigan's residencies?

The fact is, its very DO friendly. Its how it is...there are plenty of DOs in practice and there are DO hospitals. Your feelings are one thing, but the reality is quite opposite. Also, their students can apply to residency spots all over the country...like any other school. But, MUCOM will have some new in house residencies and other Indy hospitals are expanding as well. Indy is boomin (relatively speaking) 😉

So i dont think their cause is as noble as they claim. I dont see LECOM having a mission to provide more doctors in the state, or any of the other private schools. And why in the world would IU hospitals want to share with MUCOM students? IU hospitals has obligations to their students, do they not?

and? Also, MUCOM students wont go to IU hospitals. Please research before you comment again...not insilting you, but you dont have a clue about the program from what it seems. Look up its hopital network and then develop an opinion. Its awesome. St Vincents is nationally ranked in 5 specialties and has like 700-800+ beds. Thats MUCOMs main teaching hospital. And it even has more, including Community. Look them up

And lastly, why Marian for a new medical school? From what I understand there are a plethora of other choices. Notre Dame is in Indiana, so is Purdue; both are top ranked schools. How kickass would it be to have Purdue University College of Osteopathic Medicine (Family went to purdue lol, boiler up!). Idk, something doesnt seem right/fishy with all of this, I think $$$ had something to do with it

Yes, you should look into it and find the answer to why Marian. Indy is a HUGE city to only have one med school. It could handle even another. Look at Dallas TX. It has UT Southwestern and Baylor. Huge schools...they barely know each other are there. Indy will be the same..

I hope the above comments dont sound like Im hating on you...but its aparant that you are just guessing here. Do some research and then come on back.

MUCOM is set up very very nicely and was the school of choice OVER the other schools you mentioned. There are some great reasons for that...they even list some on their website.

Still got love for the gypsy 😉

 

[Instatewaiter]

Sorry, I'll try to explain:

if Indiana has a physician shortage, wouldnt the medical school tied to the state deal with that issue? I would understand if MUCOM was a state supported school, then It would make sense, but if MUCOM is trying to ease the doctor shortage in IN, why not become a state school? I really dont know how it works in Indy, I dont live there.

To be a state school, the state has to have enough money to support the school. You need the legislature to OK funds. Without the state's tax support, you can't have a state school. In this economy, few states have extra money lying around. This is not Indiana specific.

With MUCOM, it seems like they will be trying to mooch off of IU spots. How would you feel if you were at Ohio state Med school and had to share all the residencies with Ohio University students? Or MSUCOM mooched off of University of Michigan's residencies?

A given residency will try to get the most compeiitive applicants it can, no matter the state or school they come from. It is not mooching. For instance, my hospital has residents from literally all over the country. The University of Maryland students aren't up in arms because someone from California matched to my hospital.

And lastly, why Marian for a new medical school? From what I understand there are a plethora of other choices. Notre Dame is in Indiana, so is Purdue; both are top ranked schools. How kickass would it be to have Purdue University College of Osteopathic Medicine (Family went to purdue lol, boiler up!). Idk, something doesnt seem right/fishy with all of this, I think $$$ had something to do with it.

Just like the state supporting a "state school." Purdue and Notre Dame have to be on board. Who knows if they were asked. Perhaps they were and said no.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I hope the above comments dont sound like Im hating on you...but its aparant that you are just guessing here. Do some research and then come on back.

MUCOM is set up very very nicely and was the school of choice OVER the other schools you mentioned. There are some great reasons for that...they even list some on their website.

Still got love for the gypsy 😉

Haha, no hate taken! I was just giving my observations and insight on what my friend who got to IU says. He prolly knows better than I do.

 

[ergophys]

Halflistic made some excellent comments. I'll try to add to them.

Sorry, I'll try to explain:

I understand why out of state students would go to MUCOM, its just like any other private school, but I dont understand why in state students would. Also, if Indiana has a physician shortage, wouldnt the medical school tied to the state deal with that issue? I would understand if MUCOM was a state supported school, then It would make sense, but if MUCOM is trying to ease the doctor shortage in IN, why not become a state school? I really dont know how it works in Indy, I dont live there.

Marian University is an established private Catholic school. Suggesting it should become a State institution is like saying why doesn't an apple become an orange. The key word is that it is an established university that has started a new college of osteopathic medicine.

And as far as not being very DO friendly, the only medical school in the state, as far as I am aware, is a MD school. My feeling is that it will harbor animosity between students in state and future coworkers. With state DO schools, it tends to be different:Ohio and MSUCOM have their own residencies, and in competitive specialties. With MUCOM, it seems like they will be trying to mooch off of IU spots. How would you feel if you were at Ohio state Med school and had to share all the residencies with Ohio University students? Or MSUCOM mooched off of University of Michigan's residencies?

Yes, IUSM is an allopathic school. 1) There will be MUCOM students that out perform IUSM students, and vice versa. There will be DO's that fill good residency spots. There will be MD's that take a second choice, as well as DO's. 2) There are a number of other networks, with residency positions, within the State.

So i dont think their cause is as noble as they claim. I dont see LECOM having a mission to provide more doctors in the state, or any of the other private schools. And why in the world would IU hospitals want to share with MUCOM students? IU hospitals has obligations to their students, do they not?

MU is the first Catholic school to have a college of osteopathic medicine. Franciscan tradition has a strong history in healthcare. It stands to reason that their stated mission would have a community oriented basis. Also, one of the benefactors wanted to help fund the school, in part, so that it may serve the State.

And lastly, why Marian for a new medical school? From what I understand there are a plethora of other choices. Notre Dame is in Indiana, so is Purdue; both are top ranked schools. How kickass would it be to have Purdue University College of Osteopathic Medicine (Family went to purdue lol, boiler up!). Idk, something doesnt seem right/fishy with all of this, I think $$$ had something to do with it.

There was another school in the running at one point, but they didn't have the funding available to make it happen, as well as other reasons. Purdue and Notre Dame both have satellite IUSM campuses. They are already involved in medical education with IU. Purdue had a medical school up until around 1910. IU merged it into their program.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Why cant DO schools be affiliated with big name universities though/have nice things? Notre Dame would have been a great catholic school if that was the aim and really would have put Osteopathic medicine. ND is a top 20 school. Purdue is like top 2 in engineering. Butler has an amazing PA program. What big name DO schools are there? MSUCOM, TCOM, and maybe Ohio.

What is Marian known for besides having the 2nd medical school in the state?

It would be interesting to see which school was in the running for the new medical school.

Edit: Osteopathic Medicine would progress at a much faster rate if more state association was present/if big named schools supported an osteopathic medical school.

 

[ergophys]

Why cant DO schools be affiliated with big name universities though/have nice things? Notre Dame would have been a great catholic school if that was the aim and really would have put Osteopathic medicine. ND is a top 20 school. Purdue is like top 2 in engineering. Butler has an amazing PA program. What big name DO schools are there? MSUCOM, TCOM, and maybe Ohio.

What is Marian known for besides having the 2nd medical school in the state?

It would be interesting to see which school was in the running for the new medical school.

Edit: Osteopathic Medicine would progress at a much faster rate if more state association was present/if big named schools supported an osteopathic medical school.

Since ND and Purdue already have satellite IU School of Medicine campuses they are seen as involved in medical education.

The other school was Indiana Wesleyan. I don't mean to be rude in any way, and respect what you're trying to convey, but you seem attached to the idea of a big name, State, DO school. Though your point is understood, it probably isn't going to happen.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Since ND and Purdue already have satellite IU School of Medicine campuses they are seen as involved in medical education.

The other school was Indiana Wesleyan. I don't mean to be rude in any way, and respect what you're trying to convey, but you seem attached to the idea of a big name, State, DO school.

I think that it (State DO schools) help provide an understanding of what osteopathic medicine is. I also think that having strong state supported schools make for better education in the short term and long term. I know there are good private DO schools, like CCOM, but MSUCOM, TUCOM, and Ohio are always considered "the best" DO schools on this forum and offer the most residencies of DO schools, and in competitive specialties, and they have been around a lot less than the other "good" private DO schools.

There is not one state DO school that is weak in clinical training. This influx of private standalone schools and even a for profit one dont speak highly of the profession. Seems like a cash grab to me.

With ALL that being said, if one of these private DO schools offered me an acceptance and no other place did, I'd take it in a heartbeat. I'm incredulous, not idiotic.

Edit: also, MSU has an MD and DO school. There is no reason why Purdue couldnt do that.

 

[HalfListic]

Since ND and Purdue already have satellite IU School of Medicine campuses they are seen as involved in medical education.

The other school was Indiana Wesleyan. I don't mean to be rude in any way, and respect what you're trying to convey, but you seem attached to the idea of a big name, State, DO school. Though your point is understood, it probably isn't going to happen.

👍

I think that it (State DO schools) help provide an understanding of what osteopathic medicine is. I also think that having strong state supported schools make for better education in the short term and long term. I know there are good private DO schools, like CCOM, but MSUCOM, TUCOM, and Ohio are always considered "the best" DO schools on this forum and offer the most residencies of DO schools, and in competitive specialties, and they have been around a lot less than the other "good" private DO schools.

There is not one state DO school that is weak in clinical training. This influx of private standalone schools and even a for profit one dont speak highly of the profession. Seems like a cash grab to me.

With ALL that being said, if one of these private DO schools offered me an acceptance and no other place did, I'd take it in a heartbeat. I'm incredulous, not idiotic.

I think you may not appreciate what it takes to get increased state funding. And also, I think you are giving the idea too much credit.

The federal/state money, now, needs to go to GME, and not new medical schools.

 

[GypsyHummus]

👍



I think you may not appreciate what it takes to get increased state funding. And also, I think you are giving the idea too much credit.

The federal/state money, now, needs to go to GME, and not new medical schools.

Michigan Recently got a new in state school, its MD (Central Michigan). All I have to say is look at MSUCOM, Ohio, and TCOM. THESE states are the places DOs are respected the most, and, oh look, btw they all have state DO schools. Coincidence? Maybe, but like I said the best DO schools commonly sited on SDN are the state schools.

Look at the residencies! MSUCOM had like HALF of all DO residencies, some in ENT, derm, and other competative specialties. Ohio does too, but to a much lesser degree. What does a school like DMU have, that had been around for 100+ years? Like 2 general surgery spots? The proof is in the pudding.

 

[TheFuture_22]

The funding issue is a problem for state schools, but I think private schools are doing a fantastic job of establishing these new schools. I agree that the state schools give the DO profession more visibility to the public, but that is not that important to me. I couldn't be prouder to be a future DO, and I visited all three new schools for interviews. I was very impressed with all three because they seem to have a clear plan laid out for you to see, and the administration at all three has vast experience starting new schools. I ultimately chose CUSOM because it was the perfect fit for me, but I could have seen myself at any of the other two. I am truly excited about the direction our profession is headed, and I have no doubt that these schools will be top notch in the future! That being said there are disadvantages to attending any new school. Most new schools have required attendance, longer class hours, no name recognition when applying for residencies, and a learning curve when it comes to shaping curriculum, etc. However, these issues should not make you avoid these schools because there are many advantages as well. Any medical school in the US is going to provide you with a great education. I would take into account which school you feel fits your personality best, and ultimately where you want to live for at least the next few years and maybe longer. If you have any questions feel free to message me. I am but a lowly premed, but I have interviewed at all three new schools so I may be able to offer at least some info.

 

[HalfListic]

Michigan Recently got a new in state school, its MD (Central Michigan). All I have to say is look at MSUCOM, Ohio, and TCOM. THESE states are the places DOs are respected the most, and, oh look, btw they all have state DO schools. Coincidence? Maybe, but like I said the best DO schools commonly sited on SDN are the state schools.

Look at the residencies! MSUCOM had like HALF of all DO residencies, some in ENT, derm, and other competative specialties. Ohio does too, but to a much lesser degree. What does a school like DMU have, that had been around for 100+ years? Like 2 general surgery spots? The proof is in the pudding.

Im sorry to point out that you are just guessing again. I live pretty close to TCOM now. Ive lived in CO, TX, OK, UT, OR, Europe...there are no places where DOs are respected most. No studies that I've seen. For example, right here, next to one of the leading DO schools, people still dont know what DOs are. They assume doctors are MDs, and after you explain what a DO is, most are like, cool, so gimme ma pills doc. ie the gen public dont care.

MSUCOM is an anomaly. It also doesn't exist for me since its $80K/ year OOS.

DMU has a plenty of GME spots. Nova has tons. TouroNV even has some great ones and they run out of a warehouse basically, and are an amazing school, with great faculty and killer board scores/matches year after year.

We're not seeing the same pudding. 😉

.

 

[TheFuture_22]

Im sorry to point out that you are just guessing again. I live pretty close to TCOM now. Ive lived in CO, TX, OK, UT, OR, Europe...there are no places where DOs are respected most. No studies that I've seen. For example, right here, next to one of the leading DO schools, people still dont know what DOs are. They assume doctors are MDs, and after you explain what a DO is, most are like, cool, so gimme ma pills doc. ie the gen public dont care.

MSUCOM is an anomaly. It also doesn't exist for me since its $80K/ year OOS.

DMU has a plenty of GME spots. Nova has tons. TouroNV even has some great ones and they run out of a warehouse basically, and are an amazing school, with great faculty and killer board scores/matches year after year.

We're not seeing the same pudding. 😉

.

Nicely put.

 

[hallowmann]

And there you have it. From an Adcom.

This has been the experience of everyone I've spoken with too who has had anything to do with MUCOM. They have hit the ground running, have a big and quality hospital network (check out St Vincents if you'd like...very nice).

The dean opened PCOM-ga, the faculty are seasoned/top notch, the didactic curriculum reflects the carnegie reform report and seems pretty dang solid...and the schedule? There is so much time for study, while still getting in all the class time needed.

And as far an Indy being DO friendly? Its not only DO friendly (it has a large DO hospital that you can throw a rock at from MUCOM...not that you should 😉 ), But its healthcare and bioscience friendly. You cant get a much better city for a med school, DO or MD. The school received funding, millions and millions, from hospitals and community businesses. Not MUCOM paying hospitals to train their students, Hospitals and local business giving MILLIONS to make sure MUCOM is an attractive place for top notch students. And then they are trying really hard to make sure to expand residency slots in Indy to entice them to stay.

MUCOM and Indy are going to be a great addition to the DO and healthcare world.

So, yeah, I guess I just echo Goro...make sure things feel in order, and not in chaos, and that you feel that you fit in to your school (if you have a choice). There will positives and negatives to any and all schools.

Gotta agree with everything you said here. Its impressive.

Sorry, I'll try to explain:

I understand why out of state students would go to MUCOM, its just like any other private school, but I dont understand why in state students would. Also, if Indiana has a physician shortage, wouldnt the medical school tied to the state deal with that issue? I would understand if MUCOM was a state supported school, then It would make sense, but if MUCOM is trying to ease the doctor shortage in IN, why not become a state school? I really dont know how it works in Indy, I dont live there.

And as far as not being very DO friendly, the only medical school in the state, as far as I am aware, is a MD school. My feeling is that it will harbor animosity between students in state and future coworkers. With state DO schools, it tends to be different:Ohio and MSUCOM have their own residencies, and in competitive specialties. With MUCOM, it seems like they will be trying to mooch off of IU spots. How would you feel if you were at Ohio state Med school and had to share all the residencies with Ohio University students? Or MSUCOM mooched off of University of Michigan's residencies?

So i dont think their cause is as noble as they claim. I dont see LECOM having a mission to provide more doctors in the state, or any of the other private schools. And why in the world would IU hospitals want to share with MUCOM students? IU hospitals has obligations to their students, do they not?

And lastly, why Marian for a new medical school? From what I understand there are a plethora of other choices. Notre Dame is in Indiana, so is Purdue; both are top ranked schools. How kickass would it be to have Purdue University College of Osteopathic Medicine (Family went to purdue lol, boiler up!). Idk, something doesnt seem right/fishy with all of this, I think $$$ had something to do with it.

I know people have addressed this, but MU-COM has crazy support from Indiana. All the major hospital systems in Indianapolis are paying millions to have MU-COM students do rotations at their hospitals (alongside IU students). They also seemed pretty DO friendly to me, and most primary care residencies are looking forward to fill their spots with DOs as opposed to the FMGs that are currently filling a lot of the residencies in that state.

The reason the school isn't a state school is because the state in general doesn't have the money for it. Most states don't. That's why most of the new schools lately have been private. That doesn't take away from its goal to fill a gap in their respective states. Take PA for example, TCMC's primary goal is stated to be to fill a gap in primary care, particularly for NE PA. It's also private, which doesn't take away from its goals. Their goal is demonstrated by the fact that they accept ~70% of their students from PA.

LECOM on the other hand doesn't have the same goal. Their goal is more to train DOs in general so they are more prevalent and accepted. That's why its also the largest DO program in the country (sum of all students at their campuses). You can't really compare schools like that. TCMC and LECOM are very different (not because one is MD and the other is DO), but because their goals are completely different.

Also, why not Marian? There are always schools that are better. Most likely, they had the most interest in that type of expansion, while bigger schools, which weren't looking to branch out/expand, were more wary of such a drastic change.

 

[as1212559]

What big name DO schools are there? MSUCOM, TCOM, and maybe Ohio.

Osteopathic Medicine would progress at a much faster rate if more state association was present/if big named schools supported an osteopathic medical school.

If we're talking about progress in terms of the average person, then you are halfway right. But in the eyes of the non-aware average person, the only two name brand DO schools are MSUCOM and OSUCOM. MSU is a Big 10 school and OSU is a freaking religion.

Osteopathic medicine doesn't need to make gains with the average person. Patients don't care what you are if you fix them (obviously a generalization, but srs). Progress needs to come within the medical community, so the state school stuff is most relevant in terms of hospital affiliations.

 

[backsideattack1]

Michigan Recently got a new in state school, its MD (Central Michigan). All I have to say is look at MSUCOM, Ohio, and TCOM. THESE states are the places DOs are respected the most, and, oh look, btw they all have state DO schools. Coincidence? Maybe, but like I said the best DO schools commonly sited on SDN are the state schools.

Look at the residencies! MSUCOM had like HALF of all DO residencies, some in ENT, derm, and other competative specialties. Ohio does too, but to a much lesser degree. What does a school like DMU have, that had been around for 100+ years? Like 2 general surgery spots? The proof is in the pudding.

👍 100%👍

Im sorry to point out that you are just guessing again. I live pretty close to TCOM now. Ive lived in CO, TX, OK, UT, OR, Europe...there are no places where DOs are respected most. No studies that I've seen. For example, right here, next to one of the leading DO schools, people still dont know what DOs are. They assume doctors are MDs, and after you explain what a DO is, most are like, cool, so gimme ma pills doc. ie the gen public dont care.

MSUCOM is an anomaly. It also doesn't exist for me since its $80K/ year OOS.

DMU has a plenty of GME spots. Nova has tons. TouroNV even has some great ones and they run out of a warehouse basically, and are an amazing school, with great faculty and killer board scores/matches year after year.

We're not seeing the same pudding. 😉

.

Why do you think MSUCOM is so successful? Michigan has a great deal of osteopathic physicians. People here, from the great Univ of Michigan MS to the new CMU COM know that MSUCOM has a great program. Plenty of students choose MSUCOM over an instate MD program because of the respect and access as an MSUCOM graduate. To say that the general public does not care is also blind. With the new studies and sites that list the physicians and places of education, people are going to begin to learn about the medical educational system. If osteopathic education can be tied to a strong school, like MSU, then it will begin to grow quicker and gain more respect. These random little schools like RVU, MU, CU, KYCOM.. none of them hold respect in terms of an undergraduate education, so they will gain little funding and we all know that the ranking of schools to hospitals is almost fully dependent on the name and facilities, which all takes money.

 

[GUH]

👍 100%👍




Why do you think MSUCOM is so successful? Michigan has a great deal of osteopathic physicians. People here, from the great Univ of Michigan MS to the new CMU COM know that MSUCOM has a great program. Plenty of students choose MSUCOM over an instate MD program because of the respect and access as an MSUCOM graduate. To say that the general public does not care is also blind. With the new studies and sites that list the physicians and places of education, people are going to begin to learn about the medical educational system. If osteopathic education can be tied to a strong school, like MSU, then it will begin to grow quicker and gain more respect. These random little schools like RVU, MU, CU, KYCOM.. none of them hold respect in terms of an undergraduate education, so they will gain little funding and we all know that the ranking of schools to hospitals is almost fully dependent on the name and facilities, which all takes money.

MSUCOM can go take a hike with their $78k OOS tuition. With that kind of policy, nobody outside of Michigan or the DO world are ever going to hear about the program.

 

[backsideattack1]

MSUCOM can go take a hike with their $78k OOS tuition. With that kind of policy, nobody outside of Michigan or the DO world are ever going to hear about the program.

Little secret - they typically give out scholarships to bring it down or close to in state tuition. The instate tuition at MSUCOM is lower than most programs in the country, MD or DO, at around an avg of 32k per year

 

[BabyDoc86]

And lastly, why Marian for a new medical school? From what I understand there are a plethora of other choices. Notre Dame is in Indiana, so is Purdue; both are top ranked schools. How kickass would it be to have Purdue University College of Osteopathic Medicine (Family went to purdue lol, boiler up!). Idk, something doesnt seem right/fishy with all of this, I think $$$ had something to do with it.

As someone else said, Notre Dame and Purdue have satellite campuses of IUSM, as do the University of Southern Indiana, Indiana State, IU-Bloomington, Ball State U, etc. There are nine campuses total. Recently, those satellite campuses have started to expand so that all 4 years of med school can be hosted at one location. Prior to this, the satellite campuses were for the first two years only, then everyone was sent to Indy for the clinical years. IUSM is doing this to expand, but that's only going to get them so far (USI is even searching for a construction site for a brand new, stand-alone medical school building). Marian being located in Indy is a huge plus for them, and especially so since Community and St. V's will be taking students and not IU Health hospitals.

 

[NurWollen]

As someone else said, Notre Dame and Purdue have satellite campuses of IUSM, as do the University of Southern Indiana, Indiana State, IU-Bloomington, Ball State U, etc. There are nine campuses total. Recently, those satellite campuses have started to expand so that all 4 years of med school can be hosted at one location. Prior to this, the satellite campuses were for the first two years only, then everyone was sent to Indy for the clinical years. IUSM is doing this to expand, but that's only going to get them so far (USI is even searching for a construction site for a brand new, stand-alone medical school building). Marian being located in Indy is a huge plus for them, and especially so since Community and St. V's will be taking students and not IU Health hospitals.

How many students are at each of these satellite IU campuses? Why don't they each apply for independent LCME accreditation, similar to what is being does with U of A-Phoenix Med in Arizona?

 

[Mosonik]

How many students are at each of these satellite IU campuses? Why don't they each apply for independent LCME accreditation, similar to what is being does with U of A-Phoenix Med in Arizona?

U of A Phx was developed with the intention of being a completely separate functioning and run med school from the original in Tucson. IU as you said are just branch/ satellite campuses so that makes accreditation totally different I think

 

[Mr Kenobi]

I really hate to be "that guy", and you know I love your witty star wars banter, but I dont think that the force is with this one.

I have a very good friend who was recently accepted to IU's medical school. From what he was explaining to me, Indiana in general does not seem to be very "DO" friendly. I have a feeling that graduates from Marian are going to be viewed as people who couldn't get into IU med (which for the most part seems to be true from what I have observed). Now, if you are out of state or not planning to practice in Indiana, then I doubt that it will matter.

Furthermore, I have a feeling that the more competitive residencies at IU med will be reserved for the IU students. What I dont understand is why if the mission of the school (Marian) is to provide doctors to indiana, why they just dont become an in state school?

😉😀

Obviously I am late to this party. I was planning on writing a response to this when I had some time...looks like it was covered and evolved somewhat into a discussion about big name/State schools now anyways.

Anyhow, I am assuming that since the actual facts have been presented by other posters, it really isn't necessary for me to dive into to detail about how inaccurate this post and some of your subsequent posts are in this thread regarding Indy/MU-COM/IU. The place is set up to be quite successful. It's ok, not everyone has a high Midichlorian count.


Of course backsideattack chimes in with their typical input...garbage as usual.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

In my opinion a big concern about DO schools and new programs especially is the clinical education. How can you be so sure that the preceptors in community hospitals will provide a good learning experience? They are not academic hospitals, and are not geared towards teaching students. Over time, they may learn to train, but earlier classes have to be ready for potentially poor experiences with physicians who have not worked with students. These are big concerns, because students who get into a residency may not be ready to perform at the level required.

 

[EmergDoc2B]

In my opinion a big concern about DO schools and new programs especially is the clinical education. How can you be so sure that the preceptors in community hospitals will provide a good learning experience? They are not academic hospitals, and are not geared towards teaching students. Over time, they may learn to train, but earlier classes have to be ready for potentially poor experiences with physicians who have not worked with students. These are big concerns, because students who get into a residency may not be ready to perform at the level required.

This was my major concern as well. Thats why I chose ACOM over some other schools. They have the AMEC clinical training sites which have been around for almost a decade. I have heard mixed reviews on the sites but the good have outweighed the bad so far. I think it's also worth mentioning that you can have a bad rotation at a very established program as well. Food for thought.

 

[BabyDoc86]

How many students are at each of these satellite IU campuses? Why don't they each apply for independent LCME accreditation, similar to what is being does with U of A-Phoenix Med in Arizona?

# of students depends on the individual campus, due to space--hence why they are attempting to expand with new buildings. Politics mostly, for the other question. Since IU is the second largest medical school in the country, the AAMC (I believe? or whoever) mandated that they either split into satellite campuses, or split into two separate schools. The current Dean (who is retiring after this year), didn't want to split into two schools--the reasoning being it would create a higher tier/lower tier rivalry in the state competing for in-state students (similar to the UK/UofL rivalry in KY). That is at least the rumor that has been circulating around IU for years.

 

[backsideattack1]

😉😀

Obviously I am late to this party. I was planning on writing a response to this when I had some time...looks like it was covered and evolved somewhat into a discussion about big name/State schools now anyways.

Anyhow, I am assuming that since the actual facts have been presented by other posters, it really isn't necessary for me to dive into to detail about how inaccurate this post and some of your subsequent posts are in this thread regarding Indy/MU-COM/IU. The place is set up to be quite successful. It's ok, not everyone has a high Midichlorian count.


Of course backsideattack chimes in with their typical input...garbage as usual.

Sorry kid, I just wrote what you thought in the back of your mind. You know you would prefer a more established, well-funded school that has the backing of an undergraduate program known across the country. Granted, I have heard of Marian because I had an old teammate play a sport there, but not many others have heard of the school. If you will notice, the state schools are the well-known schools - MSU, OSU, OU, UNT, and the exception of WVSOM and UMDNJ, but those have been well-established either by history or branch from a successful state allo school. Facts young padawan

 

[Dr Dazzle]

This was my major concern as well. Thats why I chose ACOM over some other schools. They have the AMEC clinical training sites which have been around for almost a decade. I have heard mixed reviews on the sites but the good have outweighed the bad so far. I think it's also worth mentioning that you can have a bad rotation at a very established program as well. Food for thought.

Sure a bad rotation is possible anywhere, but inexperienced clinical sites with new schools are bound to have a greater likelihood of having poorer rotations. The new school can have it together and impress incoming students, but the key is that they can't do much about clinical education with affiliated hospitals when 3rd year rolls around. Especially, when hospitals are paying them as was mentioned earlier. This creates a conflict of interest IMO.

 

[felix2929]

Sure a bad rotation is possible anywhere, but inexperienced clinical sites with new schools are bound to have a greater likelihood of having poorer rotations. The new school can have it together and impress incoming students, but the key is that they can't do much about clinical education with affiliated hospitals when 3rd year rolls around. Especially, when hospitals are paying them as was mentioned earlier. This creates a conflict of interest IMO.

From what i understand the problem of poor clinical education is not limited to new schools. It is more unknown but there are tons of threads about DO students complaining about their clinical education at the older private schools.

 

[EmergDoc2B]

From what i understand the problem of poor clinical education is not limited to new schools. It is more unknown but there are tons of threads about DO students complaining about their clinical education at the older private schools.

Even MD schools have shotty rotations. Its the nature of thebeast. We can debate percentages and I would happen to agree that a newer school could / would likely have more clinical spots that weren't up to snuff. This is where the students interview is key. Ask the hard questions, your career depends on it.

 

[gmcguitar4]

Even MD schools have shotty rotations. Its the nature of thebeast. We can debate percentages and I would happen to agree that a newer school could / would likely have more clinical spots that weren't up to snuff. This is where the students interview is key. Ask the hard questions, your career depends on it.

I have asked questions like this at my interviews. The administration beats around the bush and then say the medical students can answer any specific questions you have about their experience. Then a 1st year student who is 3-4 months into the program and knows absolutely nothing about the rotations takes you on a tour. Many of my questions were left unanswered at all of my interviews but I didn't want to interrogate them because I wanted to get accepted and not piss them off!

 

[NurWollen]

I have to take both sides on this one. Having more state-funded DO schools associated with well-known undergraduate schools would do a great amount of good for the osteopathic profession. A accounting major friend of mine during our last year of undergrad asked where I was applying to med school; when I listed a few, he remarked that he had never heard of them. I didn't apply to OSUCOM or MSUCOM, but if I had, I could have just said I was applying to Oklahoma State and Michigan State and he would have recognized the names right away. Then again, his opinion of my med school's reputation has zero bearing on the quality of my education, so on a personal level, I couldn't care less if he's never heard of AZCOM or Marian or Touro or any of the other schools I applied to.

Also, the fact that Marian isn't a household name doesn't mean it's not going to be an exceptional school right out of the gate. I had an ii there and would have gone to it if I didn't get in to a school much closer to home in the area I eventually want to settle down in first. MU-COM, by all accounts (ok, according to those on SDN who are familiar with the program, including Goro) is doing everything right. Students headed there should be nothing but proud.

I find it funny that some are saying "why Marian and not Notre Dame or Purdue?" Well, Marian decided they wanted a med school. ND and Purdue didn't. Simple as that. Marian should be applauded, it's not an insignificant task.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

I have asked questions like this at my interviews. The administration beats around the bush and then say the medical students can answer any specific questions you have about their experience. Then a 1st year student who is 3-4 months into the program and knows absolutely nothing about the rotations takes you on a tour. Many of my questions were left unanswered at all of my interviews but I didn't want to interrogate them because I wanted to get accepted and not piss them off!

Exactly...new schools don't have upper classmen obviously. Even the schools can't tell you how rotations will be because they are 2 years away. I guess you could have blind trust in how good the school feels when they are selling themselves to you during interviews. It's your career at the end of the day though.