Risks of a New Program - inaugural class

[EmergDoc2B]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Exactly...new schools don't have upper classmen obviously. Even the schools can't tell you how rotations will be because they are 2 years away. I guess you could have blind trust in how good the school feels when they are selling themselves to you during interviews. It's your career at the end of the day though.

Isnt that true of any school, any rotation site. An exceptional school could have a rotation site that has some turnover and the new preceptor isnt that good. The hypotheticals are endless.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Sure a bad rotation is possible anywhere, but inexperienced clinical sites with new schools are bound to have a greater likelihood of having poorer rotations. The new school can have it together and impress incoming students, but the key is that they can't do much about clinical education with affiliated hospitals when 3rd year rolls around. Especially, when hospitals are paying them as was mentioned earlier. This creates a conflict of interest IMO.

MU is actual holding an admitted student program this weekend. On the agenda is a panel of clinical preceptors/Indy physicians who will hold an information session/Q&A. There is no doubt that students will ask questions about rotations. St. Vincent (which was mentioned earlier and is MU-COM's main affiliate hospital ~800 bed) has ACGME/AOA residencies across several specialties..ie. it is a teaching hospital.

 

[felix2929]

Even MD schools have shotty rotations. Its the nature of thebeast. We can debate percentages and I would happen to agree that a newer school could / would likely have more clinical spots that weren't up to snuff. This is where the students interview is key. Ask the hard questions, your career depends on it.

The prevalence seems much higher in the DO world due to less state funded schools or schools with their own hospital. I didn't say a newer school would be anymore likely to have issues with their clinical education. I was trying to point out that even the oldest DO schools have issues with it because they send their students all over the place to different rotation sites, which can change from year to year. And like the poster above said, I asked about this at every interview and rarely got a straight answer. Also since most of the students are split up and go to different sites/different preceptors the experience of the upper classmen is likely to vary considerably.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Sorry kid, I just wrote what you thought in the back of your mind. You know you would prefer a more established, well-funded school that has the backing of an undergraduate program known across the country. Granted, I have heard of Marian because I had an old teammate play a sport there, but not many others have heard of the school. If you will notice, the state schools are the well-known schools - MSU, OSU, OU, UNT, and the exception of WVSOM and UMDNJ, but those have been well-established either by history or branch from a successful state allo school. Facts young padawan

You make it sounds as if I didn't have any big established school options when deciding which medical school to attend. This would be incorrect...get your facts straight son. I wish you could actual see what was going on in the back of my mind while I read your posts (on basically any thread you post in)...

Well-known is relative. I am not from the region of any schools you mentioned. Before I began researching schools for medical school, I had really never heard of any of them...be it MU or MSU, RVU or OSU etc. I knew of the Cali schools that had medical schools. Outside of Cali, I knew of a couple schools friends had gone to and names like Harvard etc.

The sense of noobishness that you bring to this forum belongs in pre-allo. Making blanket statements based off your childish pre-med ideas about things; having no experience in any of the areas you comment in is disturbing. You sir, should feel bad.

 

[HalfListic]

Having been there, the risks of a new school is that it takes time for the faculty and administration to figure out what works best. However, it also helps them avoid what I call the "PCOM syndrome", which is "that's how we've always done it and so we're not going to change."

So new programs have the ability to turn on a dime.


I can also tell you, at least for MarionCom, is that those people know exactly what they're doing. Most of the senior administration have been at or even started other DO programs.

COCA, the accrediting body for the COMs, is more rigorous these days. The days of "let's open a new DO school" with little oversight are now over.

An oldie but a goodie...just to get things back on track


ALSO, this doesn't matter much. No matter where you go, if you make it though like virtually everyone does, you'll become a doc. Prob get the specialty you are trying to match into, since by that time self selection will have taken its course. You'll have good and bad to say about your school, and then you'll go practice medicine.

Find somewhere you feel like you fit it.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

An oldie but a goodie...just to get things back on track


ALSO, this doesn't matter much. No matter where you go, if you make it though like virtually everyone does, you'll become a doc. Prob get the specialty you are trying to match into, since by that time self selection will have taken its course. You'll have good and bad to say about your school, and then you'll go practice medicine.

Find somewhere you feel like you fit it.

Hear, hear.
...though some people ONLY fit in at more established, well funded schools that have backing of undergraduate programs that are known across the country. 🙄

 

[GypsyHummus]

The capitalist in me likes seeing this privatization of osteopathic schooling, as I bet this will help out everyone in the long run with equilibrating medical education, but the potential student in me wishes that DO schools were affiliated with academic hospitals. I'm all for clinical medicine and primary care, but every one in a while it would be pretty cool to see what medicine is like at a huge academic hospital.

Another question I have, why are there no big name DO schools? Like Wash U, Vandy, Notre Dame, etc? Literally, the biggest academic name we have is MSUCOM, and that is a state school.

 

[hallowmann]

Exactly...new schools don't have upper classmen obviously. Even the schools can't tell you how rotations will be because they are 2 years away. I guess you could have blind trust in how good the school feels when they are selling themselves to you during interviews. It's your career at the end of the day though.

I don't think they were referring to just new schools, but rather most schools. At the interviews I've been to, most of the current students I've talked to were 1st or 2nd years, and had pretty much no idea how good the rotations were. I'd even bet that because of their variability and different people's approaches/tastes most of the admins would shy away from that question to begin with.

Well-known is relative. I am not from the region of any schools you mentioned. Before I began researching schools for medical school, I had really never heard of any of them...be it MU or MSU, RVU or OSU etc. I knew of the Cali schools that had medical schools. Outside of Cali, I knew of a couple schools friends had gone to and names like Harvard etc.

Yeah, this is completely true here. I am from the east, and honestly had never heard of MSUCOM or OSUCOM, let alone the many places out west. Prior to deciding where to apply, I knew of handfuls of schools, namely UMDNJ, WVSOM, LECOM, PCOM, NYIT (NYCOM), and I had heard of the Touros, because of their buying NYMC. I knew of those programs mainly because they were in my area, and I knew people there. Maybe if I grew up in the midwest things would be different, but they aren't.

Well-known is VERY relative. If I weren't applying to med schools, I wouldn't know about most of them.

 

[BuddyTheElf]

An oldie but a goodie...just to get things back on track


ALSO, this doesn't matter much. No matter where you go, if you make it though like virtually everyone does, you'll become a doc. Prob get the specialty you are trying to match into, since by that time self selection will have taken its course. You'll have good and bad to say about your school, and then you'll go practice medicine.

Find somewhere you feel like you fit it.

👍
Some of the best advice in this thread.

Hear, hear.
...though some people ONLY fit in at more established, well funded schools that have backing of undergraduate programs that are known across the country. 🙄

 

[Dr Dazzle]

I don't think they were referring to just new schools, but rather most schools. At the interviews I've been to, most of the current students I've talked to were 1st or 2nd years, and had pretty much no idea how good the rotations were. I'd even bet that because of their variability and different people's approaches/tastes most of the admins would shy away from that question to begin with.


I was talking about brand new schools who don't have 2-4th year students yet.

 

[BabyDoc86]

The capitalist in me likes seeing this privatization of osteopathic schooling, as I bet this will help out everyone in the long run with equilibrating medical education, but the potential student in me wishes that DO schools were affiliated with academic hospitals. I'm all for clinical medicine and primary care, but every one in a while it would be pretty cool to see what medicine is like at a huge academic hospital.

Another question I have, why are there no big name DO schools? Like Wash U, Vandy, Notre Dame, etc? Literally, the biggest academic name we have is MSUCOM, and that is a state school.

I'm not sure why you're still stuck on 'big-name' schools. DMU is has students round at the Mercy hospitals that have residency programs, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to get at with the 'academic hospital' stuff.

 

[HalfListic]

The capitalist in me likes seeing this privatization of osteopathic schooling, as I bet this will help out everyone in the long run with equilibrating medical education, but the potential student in me wishes that DO schools were affiliated with academic hospitals. I'm all for clinical medicine and primary care, but every one in a while it would be pretty cool to see what medicine is like at a huge academic hospital.

Another question I have, why are there no big name DO schools? Like Wash U, Vandy, Notre Dame, etc? Literally, the biggest academic name we have is MSUCOM, and that is a state school.

We have a massive shortage of clinicians.

We are ok with academic and bio-research.

Look at the mission of DO schools and see if what you are saying makes a ton of sense, or significantly less sense than a ton.

Osteopathic medicine is new, relatively speaking. It has a specific goal, which you are missing. It also has a different training model than traditional medicine has taken in the past. So, when you say big name...figure out what you are really asking. What are you worrying about, really?

You are borderline trolling here.

 

[HalfListic]

The product, the physicians, is really all that matters. And there are amazing DOs in every single aspect of medicine.

Done

 

[hallowmann]

I was talking about brand new schools who don't have 2-4th year students yet.

I know that's what you were referring to, but I meant that gmcguitar4 (the guy you quoted) was referring to most schools, not just new programs.

 

[backsideattack1]

Hear, hear.
...though some people ONLY fit in at more established, well funded schools that have backing of undergraduate programs that are known across the country. 🙄

Well-known is well-known. It's not the most definitive description, but nonetheless the general population has heard of their undergraduate programs and schools with a good foundation will get more money, and at the end of the day, the better programs have the most money... or I guess, the schools with the most money have the better programs.
It's really just how it is. Plus, how many academic/top GME PDs are going to know about a place like MU in comparison to the well established schools? You can justify you point, but my point will always be just as important

 

[Mosonik]

Well-known is well-known. It's not the most definitive description, but nonetheless the general population has heard of their undergraduate programs and schools with a good foundation will get more money, and at the end of the day, the better programs have the most money... or I guess, the schools with the most money have the better programs.
It's really just how it is. Plus, how many academic/top GME PDs are going to know about a place like MU in comparison to the well established schools? You can justify you point, but my point will always be just as important

Name recognition is not equivalent to greater quality of program or frankly even reputation. So a PD has heard of Oklahoma State (just for example)... so what? One doesn't automatically assume its a great program just because of it being known by name.

It seems like a gross oversimplification to tie the quality of a program to their amount of money, it at least doesnt hold up to your ideas of good and weak program so far. Earlier you argued schools like CU and MU were laughable for getting programs yet MU has fundraised 3-4x times what was necessary to open and CU has one of the highest endowments of any private DO affiliated institution in the country (it is almost the equivalent of UNTHSC TCOM) and offers more generous scholarships than even some of the public schools.... so that argument kind of falls flat

 

[GypsyHummus]

We have a massive shortage of clinicians.

We are ok with academic and bio-research.

Look at the mission of DO schools and see if what you are saying makes a ton of sense, or significantly less sense than a ton.

Osteopathic medicine is new, relatively speaking. It has a specific goal, which you are missing. It also has a different training model than traditional medicine has taken in the past. So, when you say big name...figure out what you are really asking. What are you worrying about, really?

You are borderline trolling here.

I wouldnt say a massive shortage. I would say slight shortage with distribution issues.

As far as academic, in the book sense yes, curriculum as far as I have heard does not change significantly, but DO schools for the most part do not have teaching hospitals. Isnt it all the state ones and LECOM? (And kirksville's small hospital?)

Yes, Osteopathic medicine is relatively new. Its been around for like what, 100+ years? Point is, DOs need to think big. Yes, the mission of DO school is primary care, whole person, blah blah blah, but so are many MD schools.

Lol, for some reason everyone thinks that

 

[backsideattack1]

Name recognition is not equivalent to greater quality of program or frankly even reputation. So a PD has heard of Oklahoma State (just for example)... so what? One doesn't automatically assume its a great program just because of it being known by name.

It seems like a gross oversimplification to tie the quality of a program to their amount of money, it at least doesnt hold up to your ideas of good and weak program so far. Earlier you argued schools like CU and MU were laughable for getting programs yet MU has fundraised 3-4x times what was necessary to open and CU has one of the highest endowments of any private DO affiliated institution in the country (it is almost the equivalent of UNTHSC TCOM) and offers more generous scholarships than even some of the public schools.... so that argument kind of falls flat

So you're saying the name of your school and it's affiliation with PDs and other graduates does not matter...

 

[hallowmann]

So you're saying the name of your school and it's affiliation with PDs and other graduates does not matter...

I think what he was saying was that name recognition of the institution (referring to your statement that since a school like OSU is a big state school, it'll be more well known) does not correlate to positive opinions from PDs.

Good experiences with graduates of a program is probably one of the biggest factors associated with the match (after scores, rank, and LORs). PDs put a heavy weight on whether or not individuals from your institution have done well in their programs in the past. That being said, just knowing of the institution (e.g. OSU, MSU, etc) doesn't really mean very much, unless that knowledge is directly associated with interactions with graduates from those DO programs.

That's at least my assessment. Obviously people with more knowledge in this area can provide more input, as I have only talked to a couple PDs about this.

 

[NurWollen]

Name recognition is not equivalent to greater quality of program or frankly even reputation. So a PD has heard of Oklahoma State (just for example)... so what? One doesn't automatically assume its a great program just because of it being known by name.

It seems like a gross oversimplification to tie the quality of a program to their amount of money, it at least doesnt hold up to your ideas of good and weak program so far. Earlier you argued schools like CU and MU were laughable for getting programs yet MU has fundraised 3-4x times what was necessary to open and CU has one of the highest endowments of any private DO affiliated institution in the country (it is almost the equivalent of UNTHSC TCOM) and offers more generous scholarships than even some of the public schools.... so that argument kind of falls flat

Actually, it's all about football. People have heard of MSU and OSU because they have big, storied Division I athletics programs. People conclude that a good football team = good med school. This is, at least partially, a false assumption.

 

[backsideattack1]

Actually, it's all about football. People have heard of MSU and OSU because they have big, storied Division I athletics programs. People conclude that a good football team = good med school. This is, at least partially, a false assumption.

I know my original point managed to lead to this joke, but to stay on the right line of thinking, why wouldn't the affiliation with a strong undergraduate university NOT enhance the brand of a medical school? How are my thoughts so wrong? What else makes a school or hospital better than another other than the money? You can qualify things all you like, but the amount of money will allow for better equipment and facilities, and ultimately a better name. I know the US news rankings are somewhat silly, but what else does the general public, this includes donors, see besides the name of a place?

 

[Mosonik]

I think what he was saying was that name recognition of the institution (referring to your statement that since a school like OSU is a big state school, it'll be more well known) does not correlate to positive opinions from PDs.

Good experiences with graduates of a program is probably one of the biggest factors associated with the match (after scores, rank, and LORs). PDs put a heavy weight on whether or not individuals from your institution have done well in their programs in the past. That being said, just knowing of the institution (e.g. OSU, MSU, etc) doesn't really mean very much, unless that knowledge is directly associated with interactions with graduates from those DO programs.

That's at least my assessment. Obviously people with more knowledge in this area can provide more input, as I have only talked to a couple PDs about this.

This. My wording was a little funky, but that is the main point I am getting to.
As was stated though, we can go back and forth. This is the facts....
www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

Notice, the combined specialty section states that just about 50% of all allopathic residency programs that reported "highly regarded US medical school" had ANY factor as to how their applicants were chosen/ranked.
It would be dumb for me to state you don't have any point but unlike SDN rumors, my point is just that since only half of programs even care at all this really doesn't seem to a major player in the grand scheme of things. Not to mention, perception cannot be controlled. One PD feels one way for justified or unjustified reasons and another completely different. This is good news for those who by hard work and dedication write their own success in medicine by working hard not by the unknown or recognized school they attended.

You have valid points but I just wanted to show the data in regard to the rumor of "school name"

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Actually, it's all about football. People have heard of MSU and OSU because they have big, storied Division I athletics programs. People conclude that a good football team = good med school. This is, at least partially, a false assumption.

I know my original point managed to lead to this joke, but to stay on the right line of thinking, why wouldn't the affiliation with a strong undergraduate university NOT enhance the brand of a medical school? How are my thoughts so wrong? What else makes a school or hospital better than another other than the money? You can qualify things all you like, but the amount of money will allow for better equipment and facilities, and ultimately a better name. I know the US news rankings are somewhat silly, but what else does the general public, this includes donors, see besides the name of a place?

The bolded is just plain wrong...and another example of your uninformed blanket statements. I have spent time in the UCSD medical school building...it pales in comparison to MU-COMs facilities.

 

[GypsyHummus]

The bolded is just plain wrong...and another example of your uninformed blanket statements. I have spent time in the UCSD medical school building...it pales in comparison to MU-COMs facilities.

I'm sure the facilities are very nice, it just got finished like what, last month?

 

[hallowmann]

You have valid points but I just wanted to show the data in regard to the rumor of "school name"

Completely agree with the variability of this. Its not really something you can control or particularly measure. How/why PDs justify how they feel could be completely random.

Obviously the biggest factors will be grades, rank, board scores, LORs, and interviews, but like I said, for at least the PDs I've talked to, they tend to like people from programs they are familiar with in the sense that other graduates have been through their program before. Like you said, its a pretty small sample size, and as you have shown most PDs don't even report it as a factor.

The bolded is just plain wrong...and another example of your uninformed blanket statements. I have spent time in the UCSD medical school building...it pales in comparison to MU-COMs facilities.

Hey, Mr. Kenobi, are you heading back to CA after school? If so, what do you think your opportunities for doing rotations/electives there will be? I know they are still expanding rotation sites. Hopefully you MU-COM folk will be able to tell us more about how the 3rd and 4th year look after the 9th.

 

[NurWollen]

The bolded is just plain wrong...and another example of your uninformed blanket statements. I have spent time in the UCSD medical school building...it pales in comparison to MU-COMs facilities.

University of Washington is another highly respected public MD school with crappy facilities on the campus itself.

 

[backsideattack1]

I'm sure the facilities are very nice, it just got finished like what, last month?

👍 I am sure UCSD is larger as well

Completely agree with the variability of this. Its not really something you can control or particularly measure. How/why PDs justify how they feel could be completely random.

Obviously the biggest factors will be grades, rank, board scores, LORs, and interviews, but like I said, for at least the PDs I've talked to, they tend to like people from programs they are familiar with in the sense that other graduates have been through their program before. Like you said, its a pretty small sample size, and as you have shown most PDs don't even report it as a factor.

It says greater than 50% cite the school as a factor, which means that more than half still care about where you go. These are just PDs, not to mention the general population that can really only understand the difference in the name of your institution or the hospital where you train. Padawan... naive you sound... think you must... correct, I still am.

 

[hallowmann]

It says greater than 50% cite the school as a factor, which means that more than half still care about where you go. These are just PDs, not to mention the general population that can really only understand the difference in the name of your institution or the hospital where you train. Padawan... naive you sound... think you must... correct, I still am.

54% makes it an issue, but certainly not the issue, if approximately half the PDs don't consider it.

What do you mean by general population? I'm not really sure when that comes into play. Most people in the non-premed/medical population don't know much if anything about medical school reputations, save the standard prestige of the Ivy's and Johns Hopkins. I doubt a random person in the general population would hear OSUCOM and think was any better or well known than say another DO program like LECOM, DMU, etc. Besides, as I said earlier, name recognition is highly variable based on location.

Also, I'm not Mr. Kenobi 🙂.

 

[backsideattack1]

54% makes it an issue, but certainly not the issue, if approximately half the PDs don't consider it.

What do you mean by general population? I'm not really sure when that comes into play. Most people in the non-premed/medical population don't know much if anything about medical school reputations, save the standard prestige of the Ivy's and Johns Hopkins. I doubt a random person in the general population would hear OSUCOM and think was any better or well known than say another DO program like LECOM, DMU, etc. Besides, as I said earlier, name recognition is highly variable based on location.

Also, I'm not Mr. Kenobi 🙂.

Haha I know Kenobi replied before this so I felt like taking a quick jab. 54% is large enough to become a problem. I said general population because there are new government and online resources that will begin to categorize physicians by experience, hospital, specialty, education, etc. I can only imagine this working against osteopathic physicians down the road. I know we all have grand plans to get into a great specialty at some great hospital, but not everyone will end up doing that. I am speaking toward the brand of osteopathic medicine and what would be best for it. Gaining affiliations with big name schools will help elevate that brand and potentially increase competition and equalize that gap between allo and osteo.

 

[Mosonik]

Haha I know Kenobi replied before this so I felt like taking a quick jab. 54% is large enough to become a problem. I said general population because there are new government and online resources that will begin to categorize physicians by experience, hospital, specialty, education, etc. I can only imagine this working against osteopathic physicians down the road. I know we all have grand plans to get into a great specialty at some great hospital, but not everyone will end up doing that. I am speaking toward the brand of osteopathic medicine and what would be best for it. Gaining affiliations with big name schools will help elevate that brand and potentially increase competition and equalize that gap between allo and osteo.

It's true but still, it's only one factor of many. Even if there are new categorizations of physicians these are based off of numerous factors as you mentioned, just like PDs. Sure, 54% may care somewhat but at the end of the day they also care about 50 other things to consider too so is this going to be the deal breaker? Doubt it. Think big picture here!

 

[backsideattack1]

It's true but still, it's only one factor of many. Even if there are new categorizations of physicians these are based off of numerous factors as you mentioned, just like PDs. Sure, 54% may care somewhat but at the end of the day they also care about 50 other things to consider too so is this going to be the deal breaker? Doubt it. Think big picture here!

Right, right I know there are plenty of more important factors, but I am speaking toward the growth of osteopathic medicine. I still think that building osteopathic schools through established universities is the best way to close the gap between osteopathic and allopathic schools. It would create more competitive schools and I guarantee there would be more people willing to go to say -

Notre Dame COM
MIT COM
Princeton COM
Carnegie Mellon COM
Cal Poly COM
NC State COM
UGA-COM
U of Delaware COM
UC Santa Barbara COM
or U of Clemson COM

than even a place like DMU COM or CCOM or AT Stills, just because of the affiliation with the undergraduate school. Well, maybe not Delaware, but you get what I am trying to say. I went overboard on finding solid schools without medical schools, but I think this should be the goal for the future of osteopathy.

 

[hallowmann]

Right, right I know there are plenty of more important factors, but I am speaking toward the growth of osteopathic medicine. I still think that building osteopathic schools through established universities is the best way to close the gap between osteopathic and allopathic schools. It would create more competitive schools and I guarantee there would be more people willing to go to say -

Notre Dame COM
MIT COM
Princeton COM
Carnegie Mellon COM
Cal Poly COM
NC State COM
UGA-COM
U of Delaware COM
UC Santa Barbara COM
or U of Clemson COM

than even a place like DMU COM or CCOM or AT Stills, just because of the affiliation with the undergraduate school. Well, maybe not Delaware, but you get what I am trying to say. I went overboard on finding solid schools without medical schools, but I think this should be the goal for the future of osteopathy.

I'm just glad you included my alma mater! I wouldn't mind staying home for school, but that won't happen anytime soon.

 

[backsideattack1]

I'm just glad you included my alma mater! I wouldn't mind staying home for school, but that won't happen anytime soon.

I know, I wish it were easier. I am sure COCA would make some exceptions to push for it though 😉, but this would be the most effective way to make osteopathic schools more competitive. Even adding an osteopathic school to a university that already has an allopathic program like MSU

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Backside, are you applying this upcoming cycle?

I'm sure the facilities are very nice, it just got finished like what, last month?

Ya they are very nice and still a work in progress actually...the point was to show (again) that backside spats nonsense with no factual basis. The epitome of the dark side of SDN.

Hey, Mr. Kenobi, are you heading back to CA after school? If so, what do you think your opportunities for doing rotations/electives there will be? I know they are still expanding rotation sites. Hopefully you MU-COM folk will be able to tell us more about how the 3rd and 4th year look after the 9th.

Honestly, I have no idea what I am going to be doing in 4 years at the moment. I am really open to go anywhere depending on the opportunities available and where my interests end up lying in the future.

True they are adding to the the rotation opportunities, but with just St Vincent, they have enough spots for us. Add the Community Health network and (in Indy alone) the supply far exceeds the demand.

I am sure there will be excellent information coming out of this weekends event.

 

[backsideattack1]

Starting in the fall

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Backside, are you applying this upcoming cycle?




Ya they are very nice and still a work in progress actually...the point was to show (again) that backside spats nonsense with no factual basis. The epitome of the dark side of SDN.



Honestly, I have no idea what I am going to be doing in 4 years at the moment. I am really open to go anywhere depending on the opportunities available and where my interests end up lying in the future.

True they are adding to the the rotation opportunities, but with just St Vincent, they have enough spots for us. Add the Community Health network and (in Indy alone) the supply far exceeds the demand.

I am sure there will be excellent information coming out of this weekends event.

Are you talking about residencies or rotation sites? Will there be enough residencies for new grads in the state, that is a good question to ask.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Are you talking about residencies or rotation sites? Will there be enough residencies for new grads in the state, that is a good question to ask.

I was talking about the post I quoted which referred to year 3/4 rotations and electives. I don't know how many residency spots exist in the state of Indiana.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Right, right I know there are plenty of more important factors, but I am speaking toward the growth of osteopathic medicine. I still think that building osteopathic schools through established universities is the best way to close the gap between osteopathic and allopathic schools. It would create more competitive schools and I guarantee there would be more people willing to go to say -

Notre Dame COM
MIT COM
Princeton COM
Carnegie Mellon COM
Cal Poly COM
NC State COM
UGA-COM
U of Delaware COM
UC Santa Barbara COM
or U of Clemson COM

than even a place like DMU COM or CCOM or AT Stills, just because of the affiliation with the undergraduate school. Well, maybe not Delaware, but you get what I am trying to say. I went overboard on finding solid schools without medical schools, but I think this should be the goal for the future of osteopathy.

The derailment of this thread is ridiculous. The topic of this thread is--was about actually attending a new program and being part of an inaugural class; not your version of the future of osteopathy and how osteopathic schools should only be opened at schools with popular undergrad programs.

 

[abolt18]

For me, I chose not to apply to any of the newest schools. After considering many things I also strayed away from schools that hadn't been around more than 10 years. While many will succeed and will have a great opportunity to shape their schools the way they desire, I knew that dealing with the school trying to "figure things out" would drive me nuts. I would rather go to a school that has been around a long time and not have to worry about a school trying to work the kinks out of a brand new system. While that aspect is a non-issue for many, it was a real issue for me. If I'm paying 40+K a year for tuition, I'd rather spend my time focusing on my studies, and not on the annoying constant changes in policy and procedure. I don't like the idea of being the guinea pig.

 

[user3]

gypsyhummus and backside attack...👍

 

[Mr Kenobi]

gypsyhummus and backside attack...👍

Why'd you delete that long post? We need another good MD vs DO thread.

 

[hallowmann]

Are you talking about residencies or rotation sites? Will there be enough residencies for new grads in the state, that is a good question to ask.

I asked this at Marian, and they said there are almost enough (a dozen or so less) residency spots already in the area that can accommodate all graduates from IU and Marian. That being said, most of the primary care residencies are currently filled by FMGs, and directors have expressed interest in having AMGs fill those spots. Obviously they will never all be filled by IN graduates (many will want to go out of state), but that prospect seemed very promising.

For me, I chose not to apply to any of the newest schools. After considering many things I also strayed away from schools that hadn't been around more than 10 years. While many will succeed and will have a great opportunity to shape their schools the way they desire, I knew that dealing with the school trying to "figure things out" would drive me nuts. I would rather go to a school that has been around a long time and not have to worry about a school trying to work the kinks out of a brand new system. While that aspect is a non-issue for many, it was a real issue for me. If I'm paying 40+K a year for tuition, I'd rather spend my time focusing on my studies, and not on the annoying constant changes in policy and procedure. I don't like the idea of being the guinea pig.

Sometimes change is good, and change can also happen at an established school making you a guinea pig either way. I've actually heard of a fair amount of DO programs revamping their curriculum like that. Obviously though, I'm sure its more common at newer schools, like you said.

 

[BabyDoc86]

For me, I chose not to apply to any of the newest schools. After considering many things I also strayed away from schools that hadn't been around more than 10 years. While many will succeed and will have a great opportunity to shape their schools the way they desire, I knew that dealing with the school trying to "figure things out" would drive me nuts. I would rather go to a school that has been around a long time and not have to worry about a school trying to work the kinks out of a brand new system. While that aspect is a non-issue for many, it was a real issue for me. If I'm paying 40+K a year for tuition, I'd rather spend my time focusing on my studies, and not on the annoying constant changes in policy and procedure. I don't like the idea of being the guinea pig.

This was my train of thought too. School is going to be stressful enough without the extra worry of working out kinks in a new program. Throughout undergrad and grad school, I've never had a single semester where something didn't pop up for one reason or another, but I'd like to minimize these as much as possible, and for me that meant turning down a new school....but not just for that reason.

 

[cliquesh]

I was talking about the post I quoted which referred to year 3/4 rotations and electives. I don't know how many residency spots exist in the state of Indiana.

Around 360 residency spots in Indiana. IU has a class size of 325 or so. I interviewed at IndianaU for residency. They seemed DO friendly enough. They told me IU was expanding and trying to acquire more hospitals in the state, which could be a problem if they prohibit DO students from rotating at their newly acquired hospitals, but maybe they won't care or will work with Marian...who knows...Indianapolis is a cool city.

 

[HalfListic]

For me, I chose not to apply to any of the newest schools. After considering many things I also strayed away from schools that hadn't been around more than 10 years. While many will succeed and will have a great opportunity to shape their schools the way they desire, I knew that dealing with the school trying to "figure things out" would drive me nuts. I would rather go to a school that has been around a long time and not have to worry about a school trying to work the kinks out of a brand new system. While that aspect is a non-issue for many, it was a real issue for me. If I'm paying 40+K a year for tuition, I'd rather spend my time focusing on my studies, and not on the annoying constant changes in policy and procedure. I don't like the idea of being the guinea pig.

ah, so you prefer the kinks of an old program? 😉



Each programs has issues. Of all the schools I've interviewed at and am considering, it was some of the newer ones that I had less worries about kinks. MUCOM in particular has their act together. I love Nova, but anyone there would tell you they have had trouble with the program, administration, etc. This is true of midwestern, KCOM, TCOM...etc. Even OSU, one of the very top programs out there, is changing their curriculum to systems, so it will be a "new" system. That shouldn't scare anyone though. It doesn't scare me in the least...I don't expect any school or university to run smoothly, because they don't. But they do seem to roll with the punches pretty well.


mountains and molehills here everyone...


just find a school and area you like. They are all great and its mostly up to you how you will do in the end.

 

[cliquesh]

ah, so you prefer the kinks of an old program? 😉



Each programs has issues. Of all the schools I've interviewed at and am considering, it was some of the newer ones that I had less worries about kinks. MUCOM in particular has their act together. I love Nova, but anyone there would tell you they have had trouble with the program, administration, etc. This is true of midwestern, KCOM, TCOM...etc. Even OSU, one of the very top programs out there, is changing their curriculum to systems, so it will be a "new" system. That shouldn't scare anyone though. It doesn't scare me in the least...I don't expect any school or university to run smoothly, because they don't. But they do seem to roll with the punches pretty well.


mountains and molehills here everyone...


just find a school and area you like. They are all great and its mostly up to you how you will do in the end.

The problem with new schools isn't the first two years. You can teach yourself that material anywhere. The problem with new schools is their 3rd and 4th year rotations. You will struggle during intership and not impress anyone during your audition rotations if your 3rd year experience is garbage.

DO schools do, in general, offer a lot of electives during your 4th year, so as long as youre not lazy and do not pick easy electives, then you can make up any shortcomings you may have by doing a few demanding rotations at big academic centers.

 

[as1212559]

Even OSU, one of the very top programs out there, is changing their curriculum to systems, so it will be a "new" system. That shouldn't scare anyone though.

It shouldn't scare anyone because I've seen it and it looks baller. It is modeled after the most successful pre-clinical curricula in the DO world, and OSU is still retaining it's best faculty through the change. There will be bumps but people at OSU are much more concerned about the funding status of the OSU Medical Center across the river, as it houses both rotations and a number of residencies. This is what cliquesh is saying, and this is where the issues are with newer programs. The preclinical stuff can be annoying if it is poorly done, but if the clinical years aren't up to snuff you may actually suffer signifcantly as an intern, on aways/auditions, etc.

 

[backsideattack1]

It shouldn't scare anyone because I've seen it and it looks baller. It is modeled after the most successful pre-clinical curricula in the DO world, and OSU is still retaining it's best faculty through the change. There will be bumps but people at OSU are much more concerned about the funding status of the OSU Medical Center across the river, as it houses both rotations and a number of residencies. This is what cliquesh is saying, and this is where the issues are with newer programs. The preclinical stuff can be annoying if it is poorly done, but if the clinical years aren't up to snuff you may actually suffer signifcantly as an intern, on aways/auditions, etc.

It is no different than MSU changing it's curriculum last year in an attempt to become more systems-based. It is in it's first year and I have been told that it is struggling, but the rotations have remained the same and with Munson Medical Center and St. John's becoming ranked, I am sure it's a bit better.

 

[HalfListic]

It is no different than MSU changing it's curriculum last year in an attempt to become more systems-based. It is in it's first year and I have been told that it is struggling, but the rotations have remained the same and with Munson Medical Center and St. John's becoming ranked, I am sure it's a bit better.

...which is exactly the point of the post.

Now I wonder what you are even fighting of you agree with me here.

??

 

[backsideattack1]

...which is exactly the point of the post.

Now I wonder what you are even fighting of you agree with me here.

??

Your post just says there are problems with all schools, but the more established schools will still be better because of their previous affiliations and will have had students go through their program to prove it. New schools just don't have much to show for it and that alone could be a problem.