Ross vs. D.O.

[studentdoctor2]

I am deciding between attending Touro-Mare Island and Ross. I know that once you start practicing medicine, no one asks where you went to med school, only what kind of doctor you are. At Ross I will get an MD but at Touro I will get a DO. Both schools cost virtually the same (in fact, Ross ends up being $74 cheaper a month). I read somewhere that the average Step 1 first-time passing rate for a D.O. student in 70%, whereas for a foreign medical student it is 67% (this makes it virtually the same). I guess my main concern is the chances of landing a good residency (I want to do anesthesiology--I dont care which hospital). I also realize that D.O.'s and foreign medical students have to do better on USMLE's than U.S. MD students for the same spot in residency. I was wondering if anyone else could help me decide whether to go to Touro or Ross, and if there are any other factors that I need to take into consideration.

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[Bevo]

do a search. this has been argued to death.

 

[rahulazcom]

I read somewhere that the average Step 1 first-time passing rate for a D.O. student in 70%, whereas for a foreign medical student it is 67% (this makes it virtually the same).

This is is a bit misleading. The reason the step I passage rate is still low for DO's is because we are trained to pass the COMLEX. Our COMLEX passage rates are over 90% at most schools and some schools have a 100% passage rate. Many DO's do not care about passing Step I because they only need to pass COMLEX I to graduate and get a residency since many allopathic programs will now accept the COMLEX. So you can see why many DO's fail Step I since it really doesn't matter to many of them. They take the COMLEX first and usually they burned out by the time they take the USMLE. The DO's who fail it are people who don't need to take Step I but take it anyway just to see how they would do. That's a lot different than an IMG who fails when that is his or her only exam to focus on.

The COMLEX emphasizes different subjects such as anatomy, OMM and pharm. The USMLE emphasizes pathology, micro and phys. This is why DO students who spend most of their time focusing on the emphasized subjects for the COMLEX will fail the USMLE because they didn't have the luxury of going into detail about pathology or physiology.

But the DO's who know they want to enter something competitive like anesthesiology, rads, surgery etc. do quite well on the USMLE. A student from AZCOM wrote the book "USMLE Secrets" because he crushed the exam.
I think you will be fine at Ross or Touro. I think Touro would give you the slight advantage. A lot of Ross grads match into anesthesiology too. Ross had 7 anesthesiology matches out of 230 graduates. To make the DO comparison, AZCOM had 12 anesthesiology matches out of 130 graduates last year.

 

[Leukocyte]

I think you will be fine at Ross or Touro. I think Touro would give you the slight advantage. A lot of Ross grads match into anesthesiology too. Ross had 7 anesthesiology matches out of 230 graduates. To make the DO comparison, AZCOM had 12 anesthesiology matches out of 130 graduates last year.

PLEASE note that Residency is not everything. If I have a USMLE of 260 on both step 1 and step 2, research publications, and "connections", I can match into ANYTHING I wanted coming from Ross, india, or whatever...

It is very simple really. A D.O, is a USA degree. A D.O. is an American Medical Degree. As a D.O. you are "Made in the USA". If you want to practice in the USA, that makes all the difference.

Good Luck!

 

[rahulazcom]

It is very simple really. A D.O, is a USA degree. A D.O. is an American Medical Degree. As a D.O. you are "Made in the USA". If you want to practice in the USA, that makes all the difference.

Good Luck!

I don't disagree with what you are saying. If you are comfortable with being a DO and the idea of having a different initials, I don't see why one would even consider the caribbean as an option.

At the same time, I think it's unfair of you to suggest the caribbean is not a worthwhile option. Several doctors from schools like SGU, Ross and AUC have done well for themselves. And if a student chooses to attend one of these schools, you shouldn't put them down or make them feel guilty for going. Some people are going to choose IMG over DO regardless of what anyone says. No one has a right to put those people down or make them feel guilty for their choice.

Ultimately, it comes down to hard work. One can go to the caribbean and work hard and succeed. I wish those students well.

 

[Leukocyte]

I never said do not go to the Caribbean. All I said is that one should go to the Caribbean as an educated consumer after asking all the questions. I am simply giving my personal "advice", which is derived from my personal experience, as a 4th year Caribbean student.....So take it with a grain of salt. I personally do not believe in giving out advice...no one takes it seriously anyway....I did not! (4 years ago). I believe in personal experience, and old-fashioned trial and error.

Hey, I have been brutally honest with my answers/advice...so take it or leave it, its up to you. Sometimes being "too honest" can be painful...But at least, in the eyes of God, I was not lying.

So from now on I will be no longer typing any additional posts about the Caribbean, and I will not be answering any private messages. I think my previous posts were complete and sufficient. There are other students here who went to my same school (and other Carib schools), so you can ask them for their point of view and advice. You should verify my previous posts/advice with other Ross students (4th year students, not basic science students). It is always good to get a second opinion anyway.

Good Luck.

 

[novacek88]

Have you met any DO graduate on this forum or in real life claim they wish they would have gone caribbean if given the choice? No, not one! The only person who comes close is a guy who admittedly failed out of DO school after his first year. But there have been many caribbean graduates at least imply they would have gone DO if given the choice.

It's pretty sad that some people would choose to go to a school based on two initials when every other factor overwhelmingly favors DO students.

 

[GuP]

Have you met any DO graduate on this forum or in real life claim they wish they would have gone caribbean if given the choice? No, not one! The only person who comes close is a guy who admittedly failed out of DO school after his first year. But there have been many caribbean graduates at least imply they would have gone DO if given the choice.

It's pretty sad that some people would choose to go to a school based on two initials when every other factor overwhelmingly favors DO students.

i see what you are saying but "THOSE" two letters stay with you till forever...even when you are dead!

 

[skypilot]

i see what you are saying but "THOSE" two letters stay with you till forever...even when you are dead!

Wear them with pride. They mean doctor, trained in the U.S.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Ross had 7 anesthesiology matches out of 230 graduates. To make the DO comparison, AZCOM had 12 anesthesiology matches out of 130 graduates last year.

Those are only voluntarily reported stats. You dont know about other people plus the people who pre-matched into Anesthiology.

I personally know people who got in, and there hospital stats are not on the website.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

It is very simple really. A D.O, is a USA degree. A D.O. is an American Medical Degree. As a D.O. you are "Made in the USA". If you want to practice in the USA, that makes all the difference.

Good Luck!

Although a DO is an American degree....some states/hospitals/cities in AMERICA do not RECOGNIZE DOs!

 

[Taus]

Although a DO is an American degree....some states/hospitals/cities in AMERICA do not RECOGNIZE DOs!

I'm not sure where you are getting that from....DO's are 100% recognized in every city/state/hospital. There are no exceptions in the USA. Are there the rare few hospitals who prefer MD's?...sure. But they are few and far between in this day and age. Any difference in actual policy (and not just personal preference) regarding MD's and DO's is grounds for a lawsuit.

 

[rahulazcom]

Those are only voluntarily reported stats. You dont know about other people plus the people who pre-matched into Anesthiology.

I personally know people who got in, and there hospital stats are not on the website.

I wasn't aware you could pre-match? How does that work? Are only IMG's allowed to do this?

At the same time, it means it's likely more than 230 students graduated in a given class. So even if say 12 Ross students matched anasthesiology, it's also likely it was out of over 300 + students since it's safe to assume other fields like FP and IM failed to disclose their information. The larger the class, the more competition you will deal with. It's much easier competing in a class of 130 students than over 300 students.

Although a DO is an American degree....some states/hospitals/cities in AMERICA do not RECOGNIZE DOs!

Not to be rude, but your information is quite wrong. All states, hospitals and cities in the United States recognize DO's. Furthermore, they are required by law to do so. DO's are licensed and recognized in every state. They don't suffer from licensing issues that some IMG's face in states like California and Texas. Of course, there are personal biases and discrimination, however, those biases are not legally permissible and openly disclosable. According to the law, DO and M.D. are considered separate but equal in the United States.

 

[rahulazcom]

i see what you are saying but "THOSE" two letters stay with you till forever...even when you are dead!

This is of course assuming you had the opportunity to match in your field of choice. But what if you were denied a particular residency that you might have matched in as a DO? DO's have access to both allopathic and osteopathic residencies so they have improved odds of matching into selective fields. IMG's can only access allopathic residencies.

Your initials may stay with you but so does your choice of field and income levels. If you aspired to be a radiologist, would you prefer to be a DO radiologist earning an income between 300-500 per year, or an IMG M.D. and earning 120-200K a year in a primary care field.

I understand your point of view. Reputation is important and having the M.D. can make one's life easier in some respects. But there are many factors to consider besides reputation. You have to look at issues such as location. Will you be able to do clinicals in the location of your choosing. Will you be able to acquire a residency in the state/city of your choosing. Will you be able to get into the type of program you are seeking irregardless of specialty. I would encourage any applicant to research these issues before making a decision. Don't make a decision based on unsubstantiated hearsay or gossip. And yes this applies to caribbean schools as well. Maybe caribbean schools are getting a bad rap. Research and investigate that too. Don't just go to a DO school without researching caribbean schools.

 

[skypilot]

Although a DO is an American degree....some states/hospitals/cities in AMERICA do not RECOGNIZE DOs!

Name them. Even Harvard and Hopkins have DOs.

 

[GuP]

This is of course assuming you had the opportunity to match in your field of choice. But what if you were denied a particular residency that you might have matched in as a DO? DO's have access to both allopathic and osteopathic residencies so they have improved odds of matching into selective fields. IMG's can only access allopathic residencies.

even though DO's have access to MD residencies, they have a helluva hard time matching to competitive fields like ortho...just because you have access, doesn't mean you are granted a spot...IMG's accessing only allo residencies is comparative to the american md grad...so you are saying that an american grad should also go into DO b/c he/she can have access to both?

Your initials may stay with you but so does your choice of field and income levels. If you aspired to be a radiologist, would you prefer to be a DO radiologist earning an income between 300-500 per year, or an IMG M.D. and earning 120-200K a year in a primary care field.

i swear people think that as an IMG you only get primary care or IM...If I aspired to be a radiologist (which I may), i would never settle for anything less than being a radiologist...i would give it 150% and do ANYTHING it takes to get that...you seem to think that b/c you are an IMG you should only shoot for primary care...wake up...

 

[rahulazcom]

even though DO's have access to MD residencies, they have a helluva hard time matching to competitive fields like ortho...just because you have access, doesn't mean you are granted a spot...IMG's accessing only allo residencies is comparative to the american md grad...so you are saying that an american grad should also go into DO b/c he/she can have access to both?

You can't make that comparison because IMG's have the same if not less access to competitive allopathic residencies than DO's. The difference is DO's also have access to osteopathic residencies

i swear people think that as an IMG you only get primary care or IM...If I aspired to be a radiologist (which I may), i would never settle for anything less than being a radiologist...i would give it 150% and do ANYTHING it takes to get that...you seem to think that b/c you are an IMG you should only shoot for primary care...wake up...

You face greater odds than DO's in acquiring competitive residencies. It's very possible you could deny yourself a particular field if you chose to go IMG over DO. I really hope those initials were worth it if you aspired to do something other than primary care because you will be stuck doing that the rest of your life.

 

[GuP]

You can't make that comparison because IMG's have the same if not less access to competitive allopathic residencies than DO's. The difference is DO's also have access to osteopathic residencies



You face greater odds than DO's in acquiring competitive residencies. It's very possible you could deny yourself a particular field if you chose to go IMG over DO. I really hope those initials were worth it if you aspired to do something other than primary care because you will be stuck doing that the rest of your life.

i am not gonna debate this point further as it has been beaten to death. look both ways and pick what you think is best.

that last line of yours really shows that you are still living in fairyland.

 

[rahulazcom]

i am not gonna debate this point further as it has been beaten to death. look both ways and pick what you think is best.

that last line of yours really shows that you are still living in fairyland.

There is no need to be condescending. I'm just trying to present a fair argument. I have defended IMG's on this thread. If you are going to make a shallow comment about "one's initials remaining with them the rest of their life", I think it's also important that you realize that being an IMG has its own drawbacks. And the key drawback to being an IMG is that you will face more obstacles than U.S. grads (both M.D. and D.O.) in regards to matching in competitive residencies.

There is nothing wrong with primary care. I myself am leaning toward a primary care field. But I know that if I was intent on specializing, my odds are much better coming out of a DO school than a foreign school like Ross. This is not saying IMG's are limited to primary care but they do face much greater odds.

Now if you care to express yourself intelligently with more than one sentence, I will be more than happy to listen to your opinion.

I think discussion like this is positive. Applicants need to stop looking at this issue from a black and white stance. There are a lot of issues to consider when making a decision. I don't know if you have started school yet but best of luck to you.

 

[GuP]

There is no need to be condescending. I'm just trying to present a fair argument. I have defended IMG's on this thread. If you are going to make a shallow comment about "one's initials remaining with them the rest of their life", I think it's also important that you realize that being an IMG has its own drawbacks. And the key drawback to being an IMG is that you will face more obstacles than U.S. grads (both M.D. and D.O.) in regards to matching in competitive residencies.

Sure, we all like to pretend we have all our ducks in a row and that you will score 260 on Step I and be ranked in the top 10% of your class. But if you aren't then issues like where you attended school come into play.

And there is nothing wrong with primary care. I myself am leaning toward a primary care field. But I know that if I was intent on specializing, my odds are much better coming out of a DO school than a foreign school like Ross.

Now if you care to express yourself intelligently with more than one sentence, I will be more than happy to listen to your opinion.

I wasn't being condenscending. I just stated the fact that those initials stay with you forever.

intelligently? you clearly stated in your earlier post that "because you will be stuck doing that(primary care) the rest of your life." that is not an intelligent statement. it's rather misleading. i just wanted to make it clear that obviously you don't know all the facts.

anyways, to anyone deciding between MD IMG and DO, just look at each and decide. if you go into any of the two, just work hard, be focused, be resourceful and you can get any residency you want. that is a fact. good luck.

 

[rahulazcom]

intelligently? you clearly stated in your earlier post that "because you will be stuck doing that(primary care) the rest of your life." that is not an intelligent statement. it's rather misleading. i just wanted to make it clear that obviously you don't know all the facts.

That is my fault because I didn't express myself very well. I was bringing up a hypothetical situation. What if you did want to do radiology and you were on the border grades-wise. As a DO, it's possible you could still match into an osteopathic radiology residency. However, as an IMG in this particular case, you would have to settle for something less competitive such as a primary care field. If this were to happen, would you be happy being a primary care physician that is an M.D. or D.O and a radiologist? I hope you have the type of scores necessary to match into radiology outright but worse things can happen.

anyways, to anyone deciding between MD IMG and DO, just look at each and decide. if you go into any of the two, just work hard, be focused, be resourceful and you can get any residency you want. that is a fact. good luck.

Well stated, and I would agree with this. Good Luck to you as well whatever field you choose.

 

[novacek88]

i swear people think that as an IMG you only get primary care or IM...If I aspired to be a radiologist (which I may), i would never settle for anything less than being a radiologist...i would give it 150% and do ANYTHING it takes to get that...you seem to think that b/c you are an IMG you should only shoot for primary care...wake up...

You must be living in the Matrix because anyone living in the real world would not be bragging to the forum that an FMG can match anywhere. Obviously you can't make the distinction between the terms probability and. possibility. Please, you can give 150% but that's not going to mean jack when your IMG status will get you banned from several programs. Yeah, maybe 4 Ross grads out of 400 grads will match in radiology somewhere so for all intents and purposes, you practically have no shot. Listen, if you are dumb enough to choose Ross over a DO school then be prepared to live with the consequences aka primary care. And we have heard it all before. Yeah, you will be different. You will crush the boards, as if it's so easy. Yes, give some more brilliant advice. Tell everyone to gamble by going to Ross so that you can be the one guy out of 400 students that got orthopedic surgery.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

You must be living in the Matrix because anyone living in the real world would not be bragging to the forum that an FMG can match anywhere. Obviously you can't make the distinction between the terms probability and. possibility. Please, you can give 150% but that's not going to mean jack when your IMG status will get you banned from several programs. Yeah, maybe 4 Ross grads out of 400 grads will match in radiology somewhere so for all intents and purposes, you practically have no shot. Listen, if you are dumb enough to choose Ross over a DO school then be prepared to live with the consequences aka primary care. And we have heard it all before. Yeah, you will be different. You will crush the boards, as if it's so easy. Yes, give some more brilliant advice. Tell everyone to gamble by going to Ross so that you can be the one guy out of 400 students that got orthopedic surgery.

I went to Ross instead of DO school (was accepted), I plan to specialize...we will see if I make it......

 

[novacek88]

i see what you are saying but "THOSE" two letters stay with you till forever...even when you are dead!

AND? Is that supposed to be bad? Who cares what my initials are. I just matched into a very competitive fellowship. That's more than I can say for 90% of the Ross grads that will be making a 1/3 of my salary in some thankless primary care job in New Jersey.

 

[Ortsac]

Stop degrading one another!! Top Carib students will match into good/competitive residencies and top DO students will too. This is a pointless discussion and it's gotten to the point where the attack is personal. Go wherever you see best and be happy. Stop looking down on other people. Just focus on doing your best. Stop degrading the medical profession by this stupid arguments......please!

 

[Ortsac]

Stop degrading one another!! Top Carib students will match into good/competitive residencies and top DO students will too. This is a pointless discussion and it's gotten to the point where the attack is personal. Go wherever you see best and be happy. Stop looking down on other people. Just focus on doing your best. Stop degrading the medical profession by these stupid arguments......please!

 

[Leukocyte]

I am sorry, but I had to make one last post regarding the Caribbean.

Exaggerating and making false/baseless assumptions (to make yourself feel better) might seem harmless. But there are really confused pre-meds out there reading these posts (I was one of them 4 years ago). Yes, this is a free county and everyone has the right to free speech, but please remember that there are pre-meds out there who might take your exaggerated/false claim as truth. After all there is a God out there, and we are accountable for the information/advice we give.

So please try to be honest. False claims can harm others. It is not fair to the clueless pre-meds.

And please, if you give out information please state your level of experience (pre-med, ms-1, ms-2.....). I would personally put more weight on an advice that came from a MS-4 (who is about to graduate and enter the match).

 

[bulletproof]

My dogs penis is bigger than your dogs penis. There....I said it, and if you don't understand how my saying it makes it so, then you are obviously anything other than a US MD student who must come to this forum to grovel from the scraps from the overlords table. For the final time the answer to the OPs question is " take the advice of complete strangers, then come back here any chance you get and insult all those who chose the option you did not. Rationalisation is a dish best relished cold.


Non-sarcastic part: Do some Phucking research!!!!!!!!! This debacle has been debated ad nauseum. Everyone and their F cuking mother has the 'lowdown' on the 'best' option. Newsflash! It doesn't exist! What exists friends is ' the best option for you ' , and thats it. Research the DO vs. FMG thing, and make your decision. Sorry, but these threads get old...fast. Oh, and for those who take issue with my liberal use of french, "haha" ( ala Nelson Munsz ).

 

[Lindyhopper]

. . Sorry, but these threads get old...fast. . .

No one forces you to read them.

 

[bulletproof]

No one forces you to read them.

the thing is, inspite of the fact that my current screen name has only been in existence since Jan. 05, I have been on these forums in one way or another for going on 5 years now. This particular topic has been discussed well over 100 times and massive amounts of accurate, informative information exists detailing the pros and cons of the DO vs. FMG 'dilemma'. I do get bothered by threads such as this. Why you ask? Because they clutter the forums with their nonsensical bumblings about how one school tops another. They usually degenenerate into pissing contests, and end up being locked by the mods. As for being forced to read them, you're right ...nobody is forced to read them. It does not mean I cannot have an opinion on their utility, or lack thereof given the benefit of the "search" button. BTW, thanks for YOUR opinion.

 

[novacek88]

It doesn't exist! What exists friends is ' the best option for you ' , and thats it.

Newsflash, there is a best option. The only advantage the IMG option offers is the ability to conceal the fact you didn't go to a U.S. M.D. school. That's it.

Every other option overwhelmingly favors DO's. There is no debate. Program Directors of residencies and fellowships favor DO's over IMG's. And if you don't believe me, ask any U.S. M.D. graduate and he or she will confirm this. Yeah, notice I didn't say ask any DO. Ask someone who graduated from a U.S. allopathic school and they will even tell you DO >IMG. That is saying something.

If your father is an M.D. and will disown you for becoming a DO then go to Ross. Otherwise, there is no logical reason for going IMG over DO. And anyone who thinks so hasn't done the research.

And to any pre-meds reading this, think about the trends on these forums

A. U.S. M.D.'s say DO >IMG
B. No DO's say IMG >DO
C. Some IMG's say DO > IMG (Leukocyte is a prime example)
D. Notice how these questions are never asked in the DO forums. There is a reason for that. People are aware no DO will ever say IMG >DO or regret their decision so they don't bother asking the question there. These questions are always asked in the Caribbean forum because people know a few IMG's will reveal the truth and admit they would have gone DO if given a choice.

Also, DO admission stats are higher. Only the lower tiered DO schools have admission stats comparable to the top 3 IMG schools. That should tell you something too. Students with better numbers choose to go DO.

It just amazes me that some choose to even make this a debate when there is no debate. Sorry but I had to take this tone because it's ridiculous that some IMG's even choose to debate this.

 

[bulletproof]

Newsflash, there is a best option. The only advantage the IMG option offers is the ability to conceal the fact you didn't go to a U.S. M.D. school. That's it.

Every other option overwhelmingly favors DO's. There is no debate. Program Directors of residencies and fellowships favor DO's over IMG's. And if you don't believe me, ask any U.S. M.D. graduate and he or she will confirm this. Yeah, notice I didn't say ask any DO. Ask someone who graduated from a U.S. allopathic school and they will even tell you DO >IMG. That is saying something.

If your father is an M.D. and will disown you for becoming a DO then go to Ross. Otherwise, there is no logical reason for going IMG over DO. And anyone who thinks so hasn't done the research.

And to any pre-meds reading this, think about the trends on these forums

A. U.S. M.D.'s say DO >IMG
B. No DO's say IMG >DO
C. Some IMG's say DO > IMG (Leukocyte is a prime example)
D. Notice how these questions are never asked in the DO forums. There is a reason for that. People are aware no DO will ever say IMG >DO or regret their decision so they don't bother asking the question there. These questions are always asked in the Caribbean forum because people know a few IMG's will reveal the truth and admit they would have gone DO if given a choice.

Also, DO admission stats are higher. Only the lower tiered DO schools have admission stats comparable to the top 3 IMG schools. That should tell you something too. Students with better numbers choose to go DO.

It just amazes me that some choose to even make this a debate when there is no debate. Sorry but I had to take this tone because it's ridiculous that some IMG's even choose to debate this.

Do you enjoy looking like an idiot?
To clear up three of the inaccuracies you either alluded to or outright made in the above piece:
1. Yes, there have been similar threads in the DO forum. I know because I posted on them. Heres a thought I should not even have to make to a future physician: use the search button. BTW, opinions on the DO vs. FMG thing there are just as varied as they have been in this thread.
2. Yes there are advantages to being an IMG/FMG.An MD is more universally recognised than a DO degree. Google info. on it....I am currently on a hosp. floor and do not have the time to do the research for you. Here is one anecdotal piece of evidence however. IN MY HOME COUNTRY FOR INSTANCE THE DO DEGREE IS NOT EVEN RECOGNISED. This is not my comment on the utility or standard of excellence of the DO degree. It is simply THE WAY IT IS due to countrys being unfamiliar with the DO degree itself.
3. Finally, yes I have had US MD physicians straight out advocate the MD route ( anywhere ) over the DO degree. They stressed the time wasted with OMM and their level of satisfaction with the standard of excellence of grads from schools like Ross, SGU, and european countries.
A DO degree is a good option but don't be so naive or egotistical as to think it is the best option for everyone. I believe that was the qualifier in my original post in this thread. BTW I am not alone. I have PMs from quite a few other students who either plan to live abroad one day, or are uncertain as to their future living/travelling plans and weighed this aspect of the MD vs. DO debate very heavily in their considerations
I could go on..but I'm busy, and as I have stated there is a search button. Use it.

 

[rahulazcom]

Novacek

I think there are better ways to express yourself. You are being negative and disrespectful. These are your colleagues. You are going to be working alongside them. Learn to type with respect. My parents are IMG's so I find your post offensive. I don't think DO>IMG. I think DO was better for me. I have no interest in practicing outside the United States. And the hospitals and programs I'm interested have a lot of DO's. Location was another issue for me. I'm from the Phoenix metro so having the opportunity to study at home was great plus my wife works so moving out of the country was not an option for me. OMM wasn't something I considered a hindrance; rather I welcome the opportunity to learn something new. But I can certainly understand other people's reasons for choosing the IMG path. And if I have offended IMG's on this thread with my presence here, I do apologize and I will end my participation.

 

[bulletproof]

Novacek

I think there are better ways to express yourself. You are being negative and disrespectful. These are your colleagues. You are going to be working alongside them. Learn to type with respect. My parents are IMG's so I find your post offensive. I don't think DO>IMG. I think DO was better for me. I have no interest in practicing outside the United States. And the hospitals and programs I'm interested have a lot of DO's. Location was another issue for me. I'm from the Phoenix metro so having the opportunity to study at home was great plus my wife works so moving out of the country was not an option for me. OMM wasn't something I considered a hindrance; rather I welcome the opportunity to learn something new. But I can certainly understand other people's reasons for choosing the IMG path. And if I have offended IMG's on this thread with my presence here, I do apologize and I will end my participation.

I appreciate your presence here and your input. I can completely understand the reasoning you used in choosing the DO route. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the degree, and wish you good luck in your studies and career. Take care.

 

[novacek88]

Do you enjoy looking like an idiot?
To clear up three of the inaccuracies you either alluded to or outright made in the above piece:
1. Yes, there have been similar threads in the DO forum. I know because I posted on them. Heres a thought I should not even have to make to a future physician: use the search button. BTW, opinions on the DO vs. FMG thing there are just as varied as they have been in this thread.
2. Yes there are advantages to being an IMG/FMG.An MD is more universally recognised than a DO degree. Google info. on it....I am currently on a hosp. floor and do not have the time to do the research for you. Here is one anecdotal piece of evidence however. IN MY HOME COUNTRY FOR INSTANCE THE DO DEGREE IS NOT EVEN RECOGNISED. This is not my comment on the utility or standard of excellence of the DO degree. It is simply THE WAY IT IS due to countrys being unfamiliar with the DO degree itself.
3. Finally, yes I have had US MD physicians straight out advocate the MD route ( anywhere ) over the DO degree. They stressed the time wasted with OMM and their level of satisfaction with the standard of excellence of grads from schools like Ross, SGU, and european countries.
A DO degree is a good option but don't be so naive or egotistical as to think it is the best option for everyone. I believe that was the qualifier in my original post in this thread. BTW I am not alone. I have PMs from quite a few other students who either plan to live abroad one day, or are uncertain as to their future living/travelling plans and weighed this aspect of the MD vs. DO debate very heavily in their considerations
I could go on..but I'm busy, and as I have stated there is a search button. Use it.

Do you have any common sense? Why would I addres anyone other than a person who intends on practicing in the United States? Did it ever cross your mind that someone cosidering DO schools is a person who intends on living in the United States since it's well known the DO degree is not recognized internationally? And if this person is going to practice here, why would he or she care how their degree is perceived internationally?

This question has been asked in the osteopathic forums but it's asked in this forum far more often. As of now, there are no current DO/IMG threads in the osteopathic forums. Look how many there are in this forum? Why didn't the author post his question in the DO forum? People are intimidated to ask the DO/IMG question in the DO forums because of the overwhelming backlash and one-sided answers they will receive. You can ask that question in this forum without fear of retribution because so many IMG's are on the fence themselves. That's why people ask the DO/IMG question here because there are always a few IMG's who will admit they made a mistake.

I challenge you to find one DO on SDN who claims they wish they would have gone IMG. Give me a DO graduate or a current student not someone who dropped out or "transferred" to a foreign school. You won't find one. But there are a few IMG's who will admit the DO route is superior or wished they went DO like the SDN member "Leukocyte". Every M.D. I have met says it's better to study at a U.S. school regardless if it's a DO school. They mention the weak teaching, poor infrastructure, licensing issues, weak board passage rates and large class sizes associated with foreign schools. The IMG's at my program work really hard but all of them lack fundamentals that should have been taught to them during their pre-clinicals years. Most of you deficient in basic skills like intubation, taking an H/P and writing a soap note. I have to spend more time with the 3rd year IMG's going over basics that U.S. students get. I credit the IMG's for being willing to learn and having a great work ethic but your clinical skills are weak. And if you actually read these forums, you would note how most M.D.'s like NYSkindoc, a dermatologist, advocates DO >IMG.

I have given you two names (Leukocyte, NYSkinDoc) not phantom people I have "spoken to". If you can provide names of SDN members who made statements that support what you are saying, then I suggest you don't respond. Provide the names of DO's on SDN that claim IMG>DO. Provide the name of a U.S. M.D. on SDN that claims IMG>DO.

 

[McGillGrad]

Do you enjoy looking like an idiot?

he's just a troll with too much time on his hands. I would ignore him.

 

[novacek88]

Just when I thought you couldn't outdo your previous hypocrisy

 

[McGillGrad]

Just when I thought you couldn't outdo your previous hypocrisy

I told you about trying to 'think'. You will only hurt yourself again.

 

[novacek88]

In all seriousness, ignore the insults and read the messages that I and others are trying to convey. Guys like MacGill grad are just being defensive and are known to say anything to defend IMG's.

 

[McGillGrad]

yawn

Yawns are contagious.

Everybody now! YAWN

 

[McGillGrad]

In all seriousness, ignore the insults and read the messages that I and others are trying to convey. Guys like MacGill grad are just being defensive and are known to say anything to defend IMG's.

And she finally blinks.

Yawn: 1

novaYAWN: 0

You can edit all you want, but you need to realize that a troll will always be a troll. So just give up and grow up.

 

[novacek88]

And she finally blinks.

Yawn: 1

novaYAWN: 0

You can edit all you want, but you need to realize that a troll will always be a troll. So just give up and grow up.

Are you not aware of how foolish you look accusing others of being trolls and then acting like one yourself? Do you really think calling others trolls and resorting to petty one-liners isn't trollish behavior in the slightest. You are in no position to ask anyone to grow up.

 

[McGillGrad]

Are you not aware of how foolish you look accusing others of being trolls and then acting like one yourself? Do you really think calling others trolls and resorting to petty one-liners isn't trollish behavior in the slightest. You are in no position to ask anyone to grow up.

It is pretty cool to have the power to force you to reply to every one of my posts by leaving just enough room for you to wiggle out a brain-fart of a response.

Now you may be asking yourself how to reply to refute this premise without making it obvious that it is a trap set for you to make my point for me. Good question, young padawan.

Now dance for me, my little marionette!

 

[novacek88]

It is pretty cool to have the power to force you to reply to every one of my posts by leaving just enough room for you to wiggle out a brain-fart of a response.

Now you may be asking yourself how to reply to refute this premise without making it obvious that it is a trap set for you to make my point for me. Good question, young padawan.

Now dance for me, my little marionette!

You're easy. You have to have the last word regardless of what I say which is why you have responded to every one of my threads.

 

[McGillGrad]

You're easy. You have to have the last word regardless of what I say which is why you have responded to every one of my threads.

That's sneaky, but very simplistic. Nevertheless, I guess mimicry is a compliment (then again, monkeys do it so at least we've confirmed that you are at least as able as a monkey).

 

[bulletproof]

he's just a troll with too much time on his hands. I would ignore him.

Clearly this is the case. Whats more the individual is a hypocrite who in one post states that there are no DO vs. IMG threads in the DO forum, and in another posts states ( rather weakly I might add ) that "oh, well, yes there are but there are so few, and who pays attention to them anyway?" ( paraphrasing admittedly).
Also friend, why on earth would you assume to represent all those who might express interest in obtaining info. on the DO degree? Do you know them all? Last time I checked, the US is a land comprised of immigrants, many of whom are well travelled, and many of whom might very well be interested in settling/practicing elsewhere someday. Irrespective of whether or not they know now for sure whether or not they would like to leave the USA, for many keeping their options open is seen as beneficial. I can appreciate you are not working with the full deck of cards, but I would assume that surely you can appreciate the liberty this affords the individual. Are we not as educated individuals obligated to represent the pros and cons as objectively as we can, even if we feel they do not apply?
Finally I find the following tidbit quite humorous....
"Most of you deficient in basic skills like intubation, taking an H/P and writing a soap note. I have to spend more time with the 3rd year IMG's going over basics that U.S. students get. I credit the IMG's for being willing to learn and having a great work ethic but your clinical skills are weak."
I am confident that you meant to write " Most of you are deficient" Sorry, how does it feel to get schooled by a Carib. student? Also I have had the pleasure of teaching 2nd year US MD students how to actually perform H & Ps at a clinical site in chicago. I am still in liason with one of the students helping them to prepare for their USMLE ( their choice bud ). Finally, as I have mentioned before, I have already prematched at an academic program in the chicago area ( not even sure if I will take it ), thanks to a very strong work ethic, better than average US med student step I score, and strong clinical skills. Although you did get me on the intubation. I was under the impression that that particular skill fell under the job description of lets say an anesthesiologist. Though now that you mention it we did have a DO student last week do the intubation on an ASA IV patient with angioedema. This cat was so cool he did not even use Sux. I dare you, venture over to the anesthesiology forum and tell those guys how its a basic skill of a MED. STUDENT and watch as your virtaul ass gets handed to you. While over there tell Jet, Mil and Noyac I send my regards.
Your posts are very telling of you insecurities, and what is even more shocking, your inadequacies. Are you really a third year student? And if so I fail to believe that you are representative of the general DO student population. I know a few DO students, and at the very least they seem bright. Good luck with the studies, though as an intubating 3rd year machine, you don't need luck.....maybe just a good lawyer.

 

[bulletproof]

Do you have any common sense? Why would I addres anyone other than a person who intends on practicing in the United States? Did it ever cross your mind that someone cosidering DO schools is a person who intends on living in the United States since it's well known the DO degree is not recognized internationally? And if this person is going to practice here, why would he or she care how their degree is perceived internationally?

This question has been asked in the osteopathic forums but it's asked in this forum far more often. As of now, there are no current DO/IMG threads in the osteopathic forums. Look how many there are in this forum? Why didn't the author post his question in the DO forum? People are intimidated to ask the DO/IMG question in the DO forums because of the overwhelming backlash and one-sided answers they will receive. You can ask that question in this forum without fear of retribution because so many IMG's are on the fence themselves. That's why people ask the DO/IMG question here because there are always a few IMG's who will admit they made a mistake.

I challenge you to find one DO on SDN who claims they wish they would have gone IMG. Give me a DO graduate or a current student not someone who dropped out or "transferred" to a foreign school. You won't find one. But there are a few IMG's who will admit the DO route is superior or wished they went DO like the SDN member "Leukocyte". Every M.D. I have met says it's better to study at a U.S. school regardless if it's a DO school. They mention the weak teaching, poor infrastructure, licensing issues, weak board passage rates and large class sizes associated with foreign schools. The IMG's at my program work really hard but all of them lack fundamentals that should have been taught to them during their pre-clinicals years. Most of you deficient in basic skills like intubation, taking an H/P and writing a soap note. I have to spend more time with the 3rd year IMG's going over basics that U.S. students get. I credit the IMG's for being willing to learn and having a great work ethic but your clinical skills are weak. And if you actually read these forums, you would note how most M.D.'s like NYSkindoc, a dermatologist, advocates DO >IMG.

I have given you two names (Leukocyte, NYSkinDoc) not phantom people I have "spoken to". If you can provide names of SDN members who made statements that support what you are saying, then I suggest you don't respond. Provide the names of DO's on SDN that claim IMG>DO. Provide the name of a U.S. M.D. on SDN that claims IMG>DO.

I am now going to school you for the second time in one night, and this time over the actual degree you claim to be pursueing. In the above piece you write, and I quote " Did it ever cross your mind that someone cosidering DO schools is a person who intends on living in the United States since it's well known the DO degree is not recognized internationally? " Spelling errors aside, that is simply false. The DO degree is recognised internationally, JUST NOT AS UNIVERSALLY AS THE MD DEGREE. Seriously though, you are in DO school right, not just one of those pathetic premed internet geeks claiming to be a current MD/DO student?
As for the rest of your weak diatribe I could toss you around all night like a cat does a ball of yarn. Why recently in the anesthesiology forum, a DO student was lamenting the fact that they had failed step I twice, and was seeking advice about how to proceed in obtaining an anesthesia residency. No disrespect to that student...but please ...refrain from the holier-than-thou attitude with respect to Board scores/ Passing rates and the like.
Oh, you did make a good point about NYskindoc. Your bantering skills are unparalled. Yep, if a dermatologist has an opinion...we should interpret it as THE TRUTH. C'mon...you're making this too easy.

 

[Taurus]

I'll add my 2 cents. I agree that DO's have more doors open to them than Caribbean MD's. For example, I'm currently doing an orthopaedic surgery rotation at the Cleveland Clinic, one of the best hospital systems in the US. The two residents who I have been working with are both...DO's. Don't believe that argument that an MD is an MD. It matters a lot where you get that MD.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Newsflash, there is a best option. The only advantage the IMG option offers is the ability to conceal the fact you didn't go to a U.S. M.D. school. That's it.

Every other option overwhelmingly favors DO's. There is no debate. Program Directors of residencies and fellowships favor DO's over IMG's. And if you don't believe me, ask any U.S. M.D. graduate and he or she will confirm this. Yeah, notice I didn't say ask any DO. Ask someone who graduated from a U.S. allopathic school and they will even tell you DO >IMG. That is saying something.

If your father is an M.D. and will disown you for becoming a DO then go to Ross. Otherwise, there is no logical reason for going IMG over DO. And anyone who thinks so hasn't done the research.

And to any pre-meds reading this, think about the trends on these forums

A. U.S. M.D.'s say DO >IMG
B. No DO's say IMG >DO
C. Some IMG's say DO > IMG (Leukocyte is a prime example)
D. Notice how these questions are never asked in the DO forums. There is a reason for that. People are aware no DO will ever say IMG >DO or regret their decision so they don't bother asking the question there. These questions are always asked in the Caribbean forum because people know a few IMG's will reveal the truth and admit they would have gone DO if given a choice.

Also, DO admission stats are higher. Only the lower tiered DO schools have admission stats comparable to the top 3 IMG schools. That should tell you something too. Students with better numbers choose to go DO.

It just amazes me that some choose to even make this a debate when there is no debate. Sorry but I had to take this tone because it's ridiculous that some IMG's even choose to debate this.

The following may help pre-meds decide--->

Below quote is from the president of the Association of American Medical Colleges.......this is in regards to caribbean grads (Ross and SGU)


"This group is likely to be the best prepared academically among those who began their medical education abroad, given that they completed the off-shore school's requirements for graduation, successfully cleared the ECFMG hurdles, and were accepted for residency training.

Given the inconvenience, expense, and uncertainty of success associated with attending an offshore medical school, students who choose this path to become a physician are likely to be deeply motivated."

Full article is here:

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/march06/word.htm

 

[bulletproof]

In all seriousness, ignore the insults and read the messages that I and others are trying to convey. Guys like MacGill grad are just being defensive and are known to say anything to defend IMG's.

Please click on the following link, to see just how vigorously MacGillgrad is pro IMG in all instances.God, he is a defensive, rationalising SOB...right NOVA? While there you may also read my objective posts regarding the IMG vs. DO debate.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=274799