Sad about med school v. babies

[KeyLime]

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Um....(cowering, looking around..)

I just wanted to point out that whenever I talk with any of my good friends that have kids, and I mention that I only want to have one child, if at all--I get this huge guilt trip from them about how it is SELFISH on MY part to only have one child, because then the kid wouldn't have a sibling or whatever. What gives there? I mean, if my husband is a lawyer (he's taking the bar today, hee) and I'm in a career as a doctor, and we do have a child, I want to focus on quality, not quantity. (By saying this is I am not dissing those who have multiple children, but, rather, reflecting on my own potential parenting skills.)

Some of my friends who have two+ children sometimes get really hectic because between them and their spouse the ratio is 2 parents to 2 children, or 2 parents to 3-4 children. I don't see what's wrong about 2 parents to 1 child. That way you can run a "zone" defense as opposed to man-to-man. We could give our one child a lot more attention. I don't see how that is me being selfish. I'm trying to THINK OF the child in terms of how much time we're going to have to spend with it--and if we have two children, that individual one-on-one time is split into two.

Thoughts? Someone reassure me that I'm not being selfish? That being an only child isn't a death sentence?

(Now watch me get pregnant with twins someday... )

I hear you. Sometimes I think that my husband I might decide to only have one child. That child may be biological or adopted. People go crazy when I mention the idea of only having one child, and they try to talk me out of it. I worry about an only child being alone in the world if my husband and I die, but surely they will have friends and cousins to be there for them. We know for sure that we want to have a baby sometime, and we will probably decide just how many we will have after the first one arrives. People disagree with this reasoning, but I'm not an idiot, and I want to do what is right for my family.

 

[jackieMD2007]

I hear you. Sometimes I think that my husband I might decide to only have one child. That child may be biological or adopted. People go crazy when I mention the idea of only having one child, and they try to talk me out of it. I worry about an only child being alone in the world if my husband and I die, but surely they will have friends and cousins to be there for them. We know for sure that we want to have a baby sometime, and we will probably decide just how many we will have after the first one arrives. People disagree with this reasoning, but I'm not an idiot, and I want to do what is right for my family.

RIGHT! I KNOW! Like there is something inherently horrible about having one kid. Okay, so it isn't just happening to me. I was starting to think I was missing the mommy gene or something, like maybe I should steep myself in some La Leche League/Gymboree/Parents Magazine or something. J/K!!! 🙂

 

[1Path]

I hear you. Sometimes I think that my husband I might decide to only have one child. That child may be biological or adopted. People go crazy when I mention the idea of only having one child, and they try to talk me out of it. I worry about an only child being alone in the world if my husband and I die, but surely they will have friends and cousins to be there for them. We know for sure that we want to have a baby sometime, and we will probably decide just how many we will have after the first one arrives. People disagree with this reasoning, but I'm not an idiot, and I want to do what is right for my family.

I'm an only child and I think I turned out OK although I imagine some folks in this thread would disagree.

I can tell you that I was definitely lonely growing up but that was more because my Mom didn't socialize much after divorcing my Dad. Sleepoevrs or playdates just didn't hppen much. I can also tell you that when my father died it was hard because I felt that I was the ONLY person on the planet who felt the way I did. Fortunely, I have 2 cousins who are like a sister and brother to me, so I don't feel that emotionally I've missed very much.

I also have only one child and I haven't decided if I want to have another because on a certain level doing so while trying to earn an MD/PhD on most days doesn't make much sense to me (that and I'll be 40 this year). So we have however left open the option of adoption after I finish school and we are perfectly OK with that idea. Yes, my daughter asks about siblings at least once/week but I imagine that those kids with siblings ask their parents to "get rid" of the other one at least once a week too.

It's such a shame that the people playing the guilt trip about having fewer kids are women. More power to women who have decided that they can't do it all and will limit the kids they balance with a career in medicine!

 

[mshheaddoc]

I'm going to have to say it, I am probably one of "those" people that can't see one kid in a family. Probably because all my friends with the only child syndrome are way spoiled 😛 Well, not really my full reasoning but I do have to say I couldn't imagine growing up without a sibling to play with. It improved my bullying skills immensely 🙂

I do see the points of all and a few people I know have decided one childl for their own personal reasons. I love kids so I suppose I'm a bit biased but I accept their view, I just do not share it in my philosphy. I came from a small family and would love to have tons of family around me when I get older. 🙂 Hey any woman who wants to have a kid at all gets my props. After seeing some deliveries I don't know if I want to go through it

 

[jackieMD2007]

I'm going to have to say it, I am probably one of "those" people that can't see one kid in a family. Probably because all my friends with the only child syndrome are way spoiled 😛 Well, not really my full reasoning but I do have to say I couldn't imagine growing up without a sibling to play with. It improved my bullying skills immensely 🙂

I do see the points of all and a few people I know have decided one childl for their own personal reasons. I love kids so I suppose I'm a bit biased but I accept their view, I just do not share it in my philosphy. I came from a small family and would love to have tons of family around me when I get older. 🙂 Hey any woman who wants to have a kid at all gets my props. After seeing some deliveries I don't know if I want to go through it

Yeah, M, but I would bet that you aren't a big old beeyotch to your friends who have decided to have one or no children at all.

I too admire those who have been through childbirth. Yeesh! 😱

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

1) my hubby is an only child as is my best friend. they both loved it. i come from a big family and love it but I have to admit: when we got to visit my husband's parents there is a certain closeness we experience we can't get at my chaotic household. I myself am aiming for as many kids as I can handle, but I think having an only child is a great option. And for what it's worth: when I tell people I want four kids, they try to talk me out of it too! people suck.

2) childbirth is fine. i'd rather give birth than watch one any day. I had to coach my sister through natural child birth and it was definately harder than doing it myself. you'll all do great! (should you decide to have a biological baby, which is completely up to you and I have no judgemental feelings one way or another 😉 )

 

[NonTradMed]

I think the talk about having number of kids while tending to a medical career just shows you how different women reacts to the same job. It's not bad to have one kid, two kids, three kids etc while juggling a busy career, but that means sacrifices are made in other areas for every kid you bring in.

Yes, in an extreme case where the world famous cardiac-thoracic surgeon is married to a renowned neurosurgeon with six kids something will suffer (family life, marriage, personal attention to kids etc), but most people find balance somewhere. They hire outside help, they cut back on the job, etc. I don't think the definition of 'having it all' means to be ultra successful with a gazillion kids. It means having a career which is both financially and emotionally rewarding while having a viable family life with kids and husband. Some people do believe that goal for women is unfeasible, but that's just because they haven't made it work, doesn't mean others don't live that life (such as my mom or some of her friends). Others are way more successful than my mom and manage to raise three or four wonderful kids while juggling a far more demanding job. This doesn't mean anything. Different family models works for different people. My mother's life doesn't negate the life of a SAHM mom, nor does the more successful mom negate my mother's life. Everyone juggles home and job in their own way and to say so what's unfeasible for one mom may be perfectly fine for another. Some kids require the SAHM full attention, I did not. My mom didn't stay home with me, I was fine. There was no trauma from not having my mom home to tend to me. Other kids may need that reaffirmation. Well, that's them, doesn't make their mom better than mine, doesn't make my mom a superior woman than their mom.

As to the one-child thing, the societal stigma for deliberately limiting your family to one kid is something I'm well aware of as an only child growing up. Even among the Chinese families who have only childs, my parents are asked why they didn't try for a second one once they came to this country. Well, my parents were not well off financially and my mom felt it would strain her to the breaking point if she had to balance two kids and a career (my dad disagreed but he couldn't exactly have a second kid without my mom's cooperation LOL).

However, that doesn't mean that other busy working families can't handle three kids or four. Some families have more energies, their kids are easier to manage, and/or they have outside help, or maybe they are more organized than mine was. I had a friend whose parents both ran their own successful businesses. They had three kids who were all academic stars and attended elite colleges.

I don't begrudge people who seem to have more on their plate than what I think I could handle unless their kids are suffering as a result. I guess some people would say that kids in busy two career households suffer because their jobs get in the way of parenting, but the same could be said of one career households and multiple kids since multiple kids get in the way of personal attention 😀.

The bottom line is, there have been many different family models, and many families found ways to work for them. If you want to have three or four or five kids as a female doctor, more power to you. That will most likely put a crimp on your career unless you have a very helpful spouse. But who knows? Maybe the spouse is helpful. Or maybe the women will have to put brakes on their career. Or maybe outside help is hired. I think we should admire people who seem to juggle more than what we consider feasible instead of shaking our heads and accusing them of neglecting their kids/career/being poor wife/etc.

 

[Beau Geste]

I don't jump down peoples throat when they make comments that don't apply to me. Doing so, makes one a megab*tch.

I have no use for you or your *opinions* if you're going to call me a bitch. Or an ass. Apparently there's only one way = your way, huh.

 

[Beau Geste]

1Path, CHILL. You tend to get overhyped and very passionate about your threads. She was making a valid point about people who judge single mothers. I'm sure you know the people who she is talking about. I can envision them and I'm sure you can too. She didn't say she was judging you but you are assuming she was judging you. Everyone gets judged in this world, sad but true. I'm sure it wasn't meant as a personal attack on you.

You keep arguing the same points which is great but its not bringing much to this thread. Hence why most people have stopped responding to your posts. We get what you are saying, some of us just disagree with your thought process.


So back to the topic at hand, anyone else have any thoughts they'd like to share on this non-threatening thread? 😀

Yeah, I *soooooo* want to keep debating something with people who call me names because they disagree with me 🙄

Lord forbid we actually have our own opinoins, mushy.

 

[1Path]

I think we should admire people who seem to juggle more than what we consider feasible instead of shaking our heads and accusing them of neglecting their kids/career/being poor wife/etc.

Admiration is FINE until the person who overextended herself begins to ask to be treated differently than other women who made better family/work decisions. Then she doesn't have my admiration AT ALL. And I've heard EVERYTHING from overextended Moms who venture into demanding medical careers from doing a surgical residency part-time, to "demanding" that single residents/doctors pick up THEIR slack. The one surgical resident I know with 3 kids has a stay at home husband (and he has a PhD). Perfectly logical, so lets' NOT get confused about what I'm criticizing here. I take specific issue with the woman who has far more kids than her medical speciality and family can tolerate, gets pissed off and blames the "medical profession" when she can't balance it all, THEN proceeds to discourage other women from going to med school. In these situatuins, sure women have the right NOT to work and in these cases which can proven not to be extenuating, perhaps she should reinburse the gov't the amount of money spent on her residency training if she chooses to "be there for her family".

 

[McMD]

I have one friend that *hates* kids and WILL NEVER EVER have children. I don't look down on her or anything...but it's completely different than my perspective. I'd love to have a bazillion kids, but we've decided that 3 (or at least that's the lucky number right now, might get lower after the first one) is a tolerable amount. Many people have criticized our odd number saying that one child will get left out (ie. middle child), but I think if we give our kids equal attention/treatment....the middle child thing won't be something to worry about. We'll see.

 

[Tribeca]

People will always ask questions about your choices in life. Sometimes people ask out of curiosity, insensitivity, or simply for "small talk." I hate it and it sucks.

When you're single, it's "When are you getting married?"

When you're newlyweds, "When are you having kids?" --> (We're stuck in this phase right now)

After your firstborn, "When are you having another baby?"

After four kids, "Wow, why four kids?"

At six kids, people just start commenting how that's irresponsible (especially if the family belongs to a lower socioeconomic status)

If you choose the non-conventional route, then it's "Why don't you want to get married/have kids?"

If you're a stay-at-home mom, some people say you're not being a productive member of the society. If you're a working mom, some say that you value your job more than your kids.


It's damned if you do, damned if you don't in this society. 👎

 

[chopper]

Admiration is FINE until the person who overextended herself begins to ask to be treated differently than other women who made better family/work decisions. Then she doesn't have my admiration AT ALL. And I've heard EVERYTHING from overextended Moms who venture into demanding medical careers from doing a surgical residency part-time, to "demanding" that single residents/doctors pick up THEIR slack. The one surgical resident I know with 3 kids has a stay at home husband (and he has a PhD). Perfectly logical, so lets' NOT get confused about what I'm criticizing here. I take specific issue with the woman who has far more kids than her medical speciality and family can tolerate, gets pissed off and blames the "medical profession" when she can't balance it all, THEN proceeds to discourage other women from going to med school. In these situatuins, sure women have the right NOT to work and in these cases which can proven not to be extenuating, perhaps she should reinburse the gov't the amount of money spent on her residency training if she chooses to "be there for her family".

blah blah blah. We get it - you have issues with women having babies and working. ENOUGH ALREADY. Take your issues and a chill pill.

Funny thing is, trying to read through your rants, I think I agree with you in principle. If you take on responsibilities (whether that be children, a difficult career, whatever), you should be prepared to take that responsibility. You should try to tone it down a bit - you might get your point across better.

 

[1Path]

blah blah blah. We get it - you have issues with women having babies and working. ENOUGH ALREADY. Take your issues and a chill pill. You should try to tone it down a bit - you might get your point across better.

Blah, Blah, Blah are you thick of skull? Where did I say I had a problem with women and babies? And I'll just bet you're a women too! What, can't take a little strong point making language from a woman? Next time I'll put on my virtualy petticoat before I post! 😛

Man, I so get why men will ALWAYS run things!

Enough Already of people misreading my posts!

PS- References to the intelligence levels of others is purlyfor comical purposes only and should not be taken to represent any individual. But in usual SDN fashion, I'll probably get a warning about this post too despite my disclaimer. Thank ladies!!!(thankfully, guys don't get their drawers in a bunch over this petty stuff! 😉 )

 

[chopper]

Blah, Blah, Blah are you ******ed? Where did I say I had a problem with women and babies? And I'll just bet you're a women too! What, can't take a little strong point making language from a woman? Next time I'll put on my virtualy petticoat before I post! 😛

Man, I so get why men will ALWAYS run things!

Enough Already of people misreading my posts!

PS- References to the intelligence levels of others is purlyfor comical purposes only and should not be taken to represent any individual. But in usual SDN fashion, I'll probably get a warning about this post too despite my disclaimer. Thank ladies!!!(thankfully, guys don't get their drawers in a bunch over this petty stuff! 😉 )

No, not ******ed. I hope. 😳 Blah blah blah = you keep saying the same thing over again, hijacking the thread with long posts about the same thing. Over. and over. again. So it starts to look like, well - blah, blah, blah. I just wish you would stop posting your personal issues. again. and again. and again. (getting frustrating yet?)

Me? Not a woman. But I'm staying home with our 7 month old today, so maybe I am giving off a maternal vibe this morning. lol

I guess my point is, that while I think you have a valid point generally - that people need to take responsibility for their choices - I think you do yourself a disservice continuing to use a few extreme cases (She wanted to have 6 kinds AND a surgical career) to make it.

I didn't mis-read your posts. I got sick of reading them. And I DO feel you have a problem with working women and babies, at least to a certain degree. If not, you wouldn't have like 20 negative posts on this thread started by someone who is feeling a bit broody.

You, 1 Path, are a downer. Lighten up, you might find you feel better.

 

[TypeA]

Enough Already of people misreading my posts!

If so many people are "misreading" your posts...perhaps it is time to take a look at what you write.

 

[natsipoo]

Not sure what the point is and I'm to lazy to read all those posts in those links. Are you supporting my "don't have a bunch of kids and expect to balance that with a marriage to another Doctor, Lawyer, Indian Chief without tremendous sacrifice", usually on the kids or what?

If not, I can name all types of Holly Jolly on line stoires of women who clamied to have achieved tenure, and had 6 kids before 32, while married to an Inverstment Banker and ended up smilign on the cover of Happy Family magazine. 🙄 But what I don't see women talking about too much is how much the decision to have lots of kids and balance that with a demanding career has affected their family dynamics or career choices.

Like it or not, the burden of raising children falls on the Mom whether she's a waitress or dentist. All I'm suggesting is that women stop complaining about how the men in their lives don't for example, help them change diapers and stop "creating" more diapers to change. 😉

Sheesh!! calm down.
I was simply offering an example of a current SAHD whose daughter was born during his wife's first year of residency.
While it may be of no use to you others may want to see and evaluate for themselves the merits/struggles that this couple has experienced in the past 3 years, rather than simply being told that it's doable (or not) they can actually see daily accounts of how it's been done by someone else if they choose to do so.

 

[Beau Geste]

I know I am lucky to have two wonderful babies already, but I can't help feeling sad that I am going to have to wait 10 years to have any more. We really can't afford to have any more until I'm through residency and the thought of that long wait bums me out. Intellectually I accept it but emotionally, I'm still in denial. I think once med school starts I'll be so busy time will fly. But for now... I've got the baby blues. Anyone else? 🙁

Wow, I've been so busy on this thread trying to make sense of rantings and ravings that I forgot to respond to your initial post! Sorry MVDM!

Anyway, I think I get where you're coming from. If all goes well, I'll be out of med school at 35 which isn't that old yet, and my husband and I have agreed to put off starting a family until then. At the same time, my job has me working with kids 0-3 every day, and the good ones make me want one of my own. So yeah, I hear you!

 

[mshheaddoc]

I have one friend that *hates* kids and WILL NEVER EVER have children. I don't look down on her or anything...but it's completely different than my perspective. I'd love to have a bazillion kids, but we've decided that 3 (or at least that's the lucky number right now, might get lower after the first one) is a tolerable amount. Many people have criticized our odd number saying that one child will get left out (ie. middle child), but I think if we give our kids equal attention/treatment....the middle child thing won't be something to worry about. We'll see.

middle child syndrome is something that I also wonder about myself. But I come from a family of 3. I think we all were treated the same, except I really was the golden child. Grades, responsibilities, never did anything wrong. 😉 But I had disagreements with my parents just like any child. But at least then my parents had 2 others to "pretend" to favor. My parents were very fair with money spent on toys, clothing, christmas time, easter, etc.

 

[jackieMD2007]

People will always ask questions about your choices in life. Sometimes people ask out of curiosity, insensitivity, or simply for "small talk." I hate it and it sucks.

When you're single, it's "When are you getting married?"

When you're newlyweds, "When are you having kids?" --> (We're stuck in this phase right now)

After your firstborn, "When are you having another baby?" "You don't want little Bobby to be an only child! Don't be Selfish!"

After four kids, "Wow, why four kids?"

At six kids, people just start commenting how that's irresponsible (especially if the family belongs to a lower socioeconomic status)

If you choose the non-conventional route, then it's "Why don't you want to get married/have kids?"

If you're a stay-at-home mom, some people say you're not being a productive member of the society. If you're a working mom, some say that you value your job more than your kids.


It's damned if you do, damned if you don't in this society. 👎

Great Post. I think you summed up what I was trying to say very well. The only thing I would add is above.

 

[mich79]

If you dont mind me asking, what is a SMP program?

Agreed, what's wrong with you woman?! 😉

We've got 1 (2 yrs old) and my wife wants another. I'm a reapplicant this year at an SMP program so obviously time and money is a problem. I think if we have another one it'll be no sooner than middle/end of 4th year. My wife's a little bummed, but she also wants to go back to school and/or work and with me finishing med school/starting residency I don't know how she thinks either of us is going to have time at that point. I think she also expects a 50/50 responsibility shouldering, which I would love but not bloody likely for at least 7 years...

Anyway you'll be able to provide a lot more for your 3rd child financially, but more importantly quality time, when all the craziness is finished. That help any??

 

[mshheaddoc]

Special Masters Program. A type of post-bacc for those who want to strengthen their application for medical school. Often you take classes similar in nature to med school or even with medical students.

 

[tenaciousmd]

People will always ask questions about your choices in life. Sometimes people ask out of curiosity, insensitivity, or simply for "small talk." I hate it and it sucks.

When you're single, it's "When are you getting married?"

When you're newlyweds, "When are you having kids?" --> (We're stuck in this phase right now)

After your firstborn, "When are you having another baby?"

After four kids, "Wow, why four kids?"

At six kids, people just start commenting how that's irresponsible (especially if the family belongs to a lower socioeconomic status)

If you choose the non-conventional route, then it's "Why don't you want to get married/have kids?"

If you're a stay-at-home mom, some people say you're not being a productive member of the society. If you're a working mom, some say that you value your job more than your kids.


It's damned if you do, damned if you don't in this society. 👎[/QUO

As long as the Adcoms don't question me about my personal choices regarding family, why , when;I will be okay. They do ,however, ask that question on the AMCAS about dependents in a round about sort of way. It makes me wonder whether dependents will be considered in an indirect sort of way. Anyway, I'm proud of the order in which my life has unfolded, first having kids and then BIG career! I actually do want one more, probably during residency.

 

[njbmd]

As long as the Adcoms don't question me about my personal choices regarding family, why , when;I will be okay. They do ,however, ask that question on the AMCAS about dependents in a round about sort of way. It makes me wonder whether dependents will be considered in an indirect sort of way. Anyway, I'm proud of the order in which my life has unfolded, first having kids and then BIG career! I actually do want one more, probably during residency.

Hi there,
As a member of two admissions committees, I assure you that your dependents do not make any difference one way or the other. Your family life is your own business. In no way have dependents or personal life (marital status, sexual orientation) been discussed in reference to any candidate. Even if you choose to discuss your family within the medical school admissions interview, these conversations are not discussed in the final admissions meeting.

Medical school is NOT incompatable with having children. Several of my female classmates gave birth during our four years and many or the SOs of my male classmates gave birth. Births happened during all four years as most people in medical school are of reproductive age.

Reproduction is a personal matter and should be managed as any personal matter during school, that is, up to the individuals involved. The bottom line: how you handle your personal life is up to you.

njbmd 🙂

 

[tenaciousmd]

Thanks for the info; although it is kind of weird to be asked on the AMCAS application.

 

[McMD]

middle child syndrome is something that I also wonder about myself. But I come from a family of 3. I think we all were treated the same, except I really was the golden child. Grades, responsibilities, never did anything wrong. 😉 But I had disagreements with my parents just like any child. But at least then my parents had 2 others to "pretend" to favor. My parents were very fair with money spent on toys, clothing, christmas time, easter, etc.

I am the youngest of 2 kids...usually the baby is favored...not in my family! I was the well-behaved, honor student...while my brother was the mis-behaved, D-student....every bit of attention was given to him. He even got tucked into bed, while I didn't (and our rooms were side-by-side). Geez! Anyways, I think "middle-child syndrome" can happen to any amount of kids you have...you just have to equally divide your attention-whether it be positive or negative attention (I was envious of even my brother's amount of negative attention). By the way, my mom admits to giving him a lot more attention-but she still doesn't see anything wrong with it since he was the "bad kid."

 

[1Path]

Me? Not a woman. But I'm staying home with our 7 month old today, so maybe I am giving off a maternal vibe this morning. lol.

Listen dude. You DON'T get a cookie for staying at home with the kid today, OK. You're the DAD and that's your job too! 👍

I guess my point is, that while I think you have a valid point generally - that people need to take responsibility for their choices - I think you do yourself a disservice continuing to use a few extreme cases (She wanted to have 6 kinds AND a surgical career) to make it. .

The female resident that wants her fellows residents to pick up her slack because she had kids she couldn't manage probably happens everyday. But like lot of issues I tend to raise, folks don't want to speak about it because 1) They or their spouses are guilty of it themslves or 2) They think it's OK or more than liklely 3) It's not politically correct to do so.

I didn't mis-read your posts. I got sick of reading them. And I DO feel you have a problem with working women and babies, at least to a certain degree. If not, you wouldn't have like 20 negative posts on this thread started by someone who is feeling a bit broody..

OK, Chops. If you're so sick then why repond? And are you sure it's my post and not those diapers you're changing today that's making you sick. I LOVE motherhood but the sight of a diaper sagging a little too low is enough to make me loose my lunch!

You, 1 Path, are a downer. Lighten up, you might find you feel better.

Now whose doing the name calling! I bet you won't get a warnign for that one either!!! And is that a downer as in an antihistamine or my all time favorite White Russian? 😛

 

[1Path]

As long as the Adcoms don't question me about my personal choices regarding family, why , when;I will be okay.

I WAS recently asked by an adcom member how I would manage kids while in med school. So yes, this kinda thing DOES happen. You may want to take a look at Mommd.com for more examples,

 

[RxnMan]

RIGHT! I KNOW! Like there is something inherently horrible about having one kid. Okay, so it isn't just happening to me. I was starting to think I was missing the mommy gene or something, like maybe I should steep myself in some La Leche League/Gymboree/Parents Magazine or something. J/K!!! 🙂

Two is a good number. You have to have an heir, and just in case, you need to have a back-up.

Besides, with more than two kids, the parents have to switch from man-to-man to zone defense, and I was never that good at team sports.

 

[medanthgirl]

I simply no longer buy the stories of women with multiple kids, and high powered positions in medicine, especially those married other docs.

I say get back to me when those kids become teenagers! In the mean time, don't believe the hype!

As much as I hate to say it, I think to have any more than 3 kids in a high profile/demanding 2 career family on purpose is just plain selfish. And if you're in OB/Gyn or Surgery anything more than one is simply insane!!

wow, somebody's a bit cynical. do you go into your med school interviews this angry and inferring people are a$$es and whatnot (i'm referring to another post on this thread) well if you refuse to believe it can happen/ or acknowledge when it has then you'll just never agree. but to each their own and luckily we get to live our own lives.
and fyi, the radiologist w/ lab and multiple positions in the som 3 of her 4 kids are now teenagers and they are good kids. i worked for this woman for three years and been around her teenagers multiple times and guess what they are smart, talented kids that love their mom. they're not sulky, they're not dressed like scuzzlebutt and they don't shrug you off and are all doing awesome in school. i consider myself lucky to have watched 5 female doctors in radiology, medical oncology, and one surgeon that all have anywhere from 2-4 kids each, each are married to spouses in medicine, and I was careful to take mental notes of what they do to make it work. and i NEVER EVER heard a single one whine. it takes grit to get to that level, and i felt honored to have worked with them for 3 years.
you are so convinced it can't work, i am convinced it can given the right circumstances.
can't we just agree that there's not ONE right answer, but a variety of experiences that may be right for some families and wrong for others? c'mon, we're future colleagues here! (hopefully)

 

[medanthgirl]

People will always ask questions about your choices in life. Sometimes people ask out of curiosity, insensitivity, or simply for "small talk." I hate it and it sucks.

When you're single, it's "When are you getting married?"

When you're newlyweds, "When are you having kids?" --> (We're stuck in this phase right now)

After your firstborn, "When are you having another baby?"

After four kids, "Wow, why four kids?"

At six kids, people just start commenting how that's irresponsible (especially if the family belongs to a lower socioeconomic status)

If you choose the non-conventional route, then it's "Why don't you want to get married/have kids?"

If you're a stay-at-home mom, some people say you're not being a productive member of the society. If you're a working mom, some say that you value your job more than your kids.


It's damned if you do, damned if you don't in this society. 👎

excellent post - that is soooooo true. sometimes its not even mean spirited people just want to know more about you and they think that's the right way to go about it

 

[QofQuimica]

Two is a good number. You have to have an heir, and just in case, you need to have a back-up.

Besides, with more than two kids, the parents have to switch from man-to-man to zone defense, and I was never that good at team sports.

I think this is the best post in the whole thread. 👍

I'm one of two kids, and as far as I'm concerned, two kids is two too many. 😉 I actually like kids a lot....as long as they're someone else's. 😀

FYI, ladies, I went on a lot of interviews last year, and this subject NEVER came up, not even once. I think if it did, it would be appropriate for you to just say that right now your focus is on finishing your education, and let it go at that. I'm don't think that I'd tell an interviewer that I was planning to have a child in med school even if I was....it might not matter, but that info definitely won't do anything to help your case, either, and frankly, it's none of the interviewer's business.

BTW, to whomever said that having no kids was altruistic, negative on that one, in my case anyway. Actually, the opposite is true. I don't want to have kids because I am too SELFISH. I like being able to do whatever I want with my free time and my spare money, and I don't want to give that freedom up. It's as simple as that.

 

[1Path]

wow, somebody's a bit cynical. do you go into your med school interviews this angry and inferring people are a$$es )

Actually, I'm throughly pissed off at the sly a$$ comment made previously in this thread disparaging single mothers, so lets' be clear about what the real emotion is I'm feeling about THAT particular comment. Otherwise, it's all good! 😀

You know, maybe if more of you watched Cosby and less of "Tales from the Hood and BET Uncensored" you'd be able to see past the obvious stereotype that follows when someone like me expresses strong views, and view it as just that. HOW I EXPRESS MYSELF.

Here's the thing. There's PLENTY of examples of women making the multiple baby thing work and we can ALL come up with a few examples. But this is not what my posts are speaking to, so I'll leave you to either reread my posts or continue to ignore them or call me angry. Whatever blows your skirt up!

And for anyone else who wants to comment on my anger, please send me a PM as I'm sure folks are getting tired of reading about my anger issues!!

 

[1Path]

Two is a good number. You have to have an heir, and just in case, you need to have a back-up.

Another one would make 2 for me and I certainly think that's PLENTY too! The thing I'm worried about is that you think you're going for #2 and end up with #5, as in a multiple birth! 😱

 

[RxnMan]

I think this is the best post in the whole thread. 👍

At least SOMEONE benefitted from my attempt to lighten up this thread!

FYI, ladies, I went on a lot of interviews last year, and this subject NEVER came up, not even once. I think if it did, it would be appropriate for you to just say that right now your focus is on finishing your education, and let it go at that.

I believe it is illegal to ask about this in interviews. At least, I recall reading that it is illegal in residency interviews. If asked, feel free to say no, lie, or whatever. It is inappropriate for interviewers to be making judgements about your fitness as a medical student based upon how active your uterus will be.

 

[Beau Geste]

Actually, I'm throughly pissed off at the sly a$$ comment made previously in this thread disparaging single mothers, so lets' be clear about what the real emotion is I'm feeling about THAT particular comment. Otherwise, it's all good! 😀

Edited in order to let this die.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Here's the thing. There's PLENTY of examples of women making the multiple baby thing work and we can ALL come up with a few examples. But this is not what my posts are speaking to, so I'll leave you to either reread my posts or continue to ignore them

You want to redeem yourself? Give us 4 sentences or less of what your trying to get through to us because I am thoroughly LOST by all your comments. Between the bashing other posters and venting anger of how women have too many kids, what is your main point that you want to get through to us? I can (and have) re-read your rhetoric until I'm blue in the face but I'm not really getting at what you are fighting for on this thread.

If you are trying to raise "awareness" of women and how many children that they "should" have ... great! But you need to come across in a different manner to portray your point. That is really the only thing that I'm getting out of any of your posts.

You keep saying "examples" don't matter when they clearly do. There are people who can survive. Just because some can't hack it, there is no reason to say others can't. 😕

 

[medanthgirl]

cosby's one of my favorite shows and since i've been at home working on lit reviews i watch the old reruns on everyday at 1. i just saw the one where denise "got my li-cense, i got my li-cense!! (sung with a chacha tune)" that one is good.
seriously, i don't remember dr. huxtable saying people are bi+$ching left and right though.

btw, the huxtables have 4 kids and they worked out okay for a ob/gyn dad and a powerful mom lawyer!! 😀

in any case, i just don't think we should judge. one can find examples of stuff working and not working left and right. but ultimately you will follow the path you want, hopefully by watching and learning from those in similar situations around you. good luck everybody!!

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

BTW, to whomever said that having no kids was altruistic, negative on that one, in my case anyway. Actually, the opposite is true. I don't want to have kids because I am too SELFISH. I like being able to do whatever I want with my free time and my spare money, and I don't want to give that freedom up. It's as simple as that.

Q, as someone who has gone over to the "dark side" and had a child (with another one on the way) I can tell you that you can still be a great parent with that attitude. I am the most selfish person that I know, and I used to think those exact same thoughts, but eventually had my arm twisted, and love being a father and spending oodles of time with my son. Yet, somehow, I still think I am the most selfish person that I know, and still think I am selfish with my time all at the same time.

Kinda wierd, I know....

 

[1Path]

Let me tell you something, both of them happen to be the most down to earth people I've met in a long time and both did well in school and were adjusted with having 2 as you refer to them "high powered" parents.

The overwhelming MAJORITY of my comments weren't specific to "high powered" parents with 2 kids. FYI, with a IT President/Engineer husband and my own career as a Scientist, I AM that 2 career, "high powered" family. HOWEVER, BECAUSE I am part of a "high powered" couple, we will use COMMON SENSE and not try to have our own little basketball team sitting at the table for dinner everynight!!! That way I can become a Pathologist and he can give Bill Gates a run for his money one day!

 

[medanthgirl]

another 2 cents...people flourish under different conditions and want different things out of life. a woman that is smart enough to be a neurosurgeon is smart enough to figure out how many kids she can have and how to raise her family. plus if you *really* want four kids, chances are you are not going to have them all in one day (unless you've been taking clomid or jet fuel or something). you'll have one or two and then you will be in a different place in life and re-evaluate.

in most cases, this is not realistic to lay out your life plan too much because these concerns can go on forever...

what if i or my partner are infertile?
what if i want to adopt but don't have the money?
what if i have a special needs child or one with serious health issues?
what if my spouse leaves me?
what if i have an unexpected pregnancy?
what if i have triplets?
what if i need to take care of my parents too?
and so on and so on. life happens and you have to be able to accomadate, even if you are working 14 hour days. i'm with the buddhists on this one, you have to dedicate yourself to this moment, and be in this moment. desires and worries about the future probably not the best way to spend this very moment we have now. there are a few things i know to be true: i want to be a doctor, i want to be a mommy, being those at the same time isn't against the law, so i will work towards that but not stress my self out about it. esp. b/c isn't there a link b/n stress and infertility?.....

 

[RxnMan]

Q, as someone who has gone over to the "dark side" and had a child (with another one on the way) I can tell you that you can still be a great parent with that attitude. I am the most selfish person that I know, and I used to think those exact same thoughts, but eventually had my arm twisted, and love being a father and spending oodles of time with my son. Yet, somehow, I still think I am the most selfish person that I know, and still think I am selfish with my time all at the same time.

Kinda wierd, I know....

What's more selfish than inflicting another version of you, and an arguably immortal one, upon the world?

 

[medanthgirl]

What's more selfish than inflicting another version of you, and an arguably immortal one, upon the world?

haha that reminds me of the dr. phil show i watched yesterday where the mom would rather spend money on tummy tucks and a boob job than save for her kids' college education.

sigh...maybe i need to get out more, i'm watching waaaaay to much tv. i only have it on as background noise, i swear!!

 

[njbmd]

FYI, ladies, I went on a lot of interviews last year, and this subject NEVER came up, not even once. I think if it did, it would be appropriate for you to just say that right now your focus is on finishing your education, and let it go at that.

Hi there,
I went on a bunch (six) of interviews eight years ago and this subject NEVER came up, not even once. My interviewers discussed my research, my plans for medical practice,my very interesting life, my academics and MCAT scores. My interviewers were Ph.D scientists and MDs both male and female. One of my interviewers was 20 years younger than me which made for a fun discussion. 😀

One of my interviewers discussed my record on the tennis team. Another discussed my intercity lacrosse play.(I also play rugby). Another discussed my love of Heinlein and the Colonial New England Puritan writers. We both loved Winthrop. My UVa interview was the most interesting because we discussed my love of ice hockey (Capitols fan here) and baseball as a metaphor of medical practice.

njbmd 🙂

 

[1Path]

BTW: I agree with the others that it is not even so much what you say but the tone you use with others in any posts, mostly those related to career women and babies or black threads. If you were calmer and not sooooooo argumentative in your posts people might take you more seriously.

And I think it's rude when people fart in crowded elevators, so where exactly does that leave us? Off topic!

So,Can you please just let this go and stick to the topic??Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 👍

 

[QofQuimica]

Q, as someone who has gone over to the "dark side" and had a child (with another one on the way) I can tell you that you can still be a great parent with that attitude. I am the most selfish person that I know, and I used to think those exact same thoughts, but eventually had my arm twisted, and love being a father and spending oodles of time with my son. Yet, somehow, I still think I am the most selfish person that I know, and still think I am selfish with my time all at the same time.

Kinda wierd, I know....

No, I understand where you're coming from. And it's not like I'm anti-kid, not by any means. As I said before, I really like kids. I started babysitting twenty years ago when I was in middle school. I've worked as a camp counselor, a tutor, and at a kid's art museum. I volunteer with children, and I enjoy playing with my friends' kids. I've just never felt any desire to have one of my own, and I've known as long as I can remember that I wouldn't have any kids. It's just something that I'm not going to do, kind of like how I'm not ever going to have a sex-change operation. (I DO wish I had been born a guy, but not badly enough, evidently. ) The way I figure, this issue is going to stop mattering in another ten to fifteen years or so anyway. And since I am not currently married, nor imminently about to become so, there is not a terribly large amount of pressure on me to change my wayward views. 😉

 

[Beau Geste]

Hi there,
I went on a bunch (six) of interviews eight years ago and this subject NEVER came up, not even once. My interviewers discussed my research, my plans for medical practice,my very interesting life, my academics and MCAT scores. My interviewers were Ph.D scientists and MDs both male and female. One of my interviewers was 20 years younger than me which made for a fun discussion. 😀

One of my interviewers discussed my record on the tennis team. Another discussed my intercity lacrosse play.(I also play rugby). Another discussed my love of Heinlein and the Colonial New England Puritan writers. We both loved Winthrop. My UVa interview was the most interesting because we discussed my love of ice hockey (Capitols fan here) and baseball as a metaphor of medical practice.

njbmd 🙂

Hey! A fellow rugger!

 

[pingouin]

OK, summing up so far- here's what I think everyone has agreed on:

1. It is each family's choice as to how large their family will be. This may include no children, a few children, or so many children that you need fingers AND toes to count them.

2. If one or both members of a couple are in a profession which requires a heavy time commitment (including but certainly not limited to medicine), each couple will need to consider how to best balance family and career. What works for Couple A may be inappropriate for Couple B.

3. If the family does include children, it will require more work to balance the family and career. The more children in the family, the more difficult this is.

4. Finding a balance may mean making concessions.
At work in medicine, these might include:
a. Choosing a specialty which is not as demanding on a parent's time/schedule
b. Working part-time
c. Not working, whether just while the kids are young, or permanently

At home, these might include:
a. A nanny, maid, etc. to make sure the household runs smoothly
b. Moving to an area where there will be family or social support for the family

5. It is frustrating when any family to watch any family grow larger than what they can reasonably accomodate (could be financial, could be time, or something else entirely). This issue is certainly not exclusive to medicine or other professional areas.

6. If #5 happens, then the couple starts over at #2- time to figure out the new balancing act, as it is not reasonable to assume that special treatment will be given to them at work (although it could happen).

7. Single parents face additional obstacles as the brunt of responsibility falls on them. They may need extra family and social support to help them raise their families since there is no built-in partner in crime.

8. Post #79 was voted "best post in thread" by a landslide. Congrats, RxnMan. Strong work.

So I suggest that from here, we stick to the OP's intention- recognizing that we'll all be figuring out how we want to structure our families, that this process is difficult, our decisions need to be "right" for ourselves and no one else, and respect each others' decisions even if it wouldn't be our own choice.

I, for one, am with Q. Selfish as hell, and not particularly ashamed of it! (Although since it's a woman's prerogative to change her mind, I do reserve that right. 😛 )

 

[cfdavid]

Sure, people "find a way" and from reading the posts on Mommd, it usually involves: 1) giving up medicine completely or 2) convincing your husband to be a stay at home Dad.

I have yet to see a Mom who was Chief Trauma Surgeon at her insitution married to the Chairman of the Neurology dept with 4 kids, that managed to make every recital, graduation, bake cookies, ect. So that 2 high powered career thing hasn't worked from what I've observed in the 20 or so years I've been working in and around medicine. Of course, if you have a Nanny raise your kids and this is cool by you, then more power to you, but that's not even a slightest consideration outside of having a child with special needs for me.

I say take the easier way out and limit your excercising your womb, that way you won't potentially have to choose between family and career. In other words, be realistic! Superwoman should have been "retired" the day after we educated women created her!👍

Who ever said those posting wanted to be chiefs of anything? Surely, your examples are extreme. I agree that it's important to be realistic about the demands of medicine, and potential conflicts with child rearing. But, that doesn't mean that a lesser demanding specialty and any other helpful, extenuating circumstances (dad that already is making money, family help, spouse working part-time etc.) can't be a solution.

I do acknowledge that it's harder for women docs. And, it'll for sure be a juggle. But, if planned well (i.e. realistically), I think it would be feasible, yet admitedly tough.

 

[RxnMan]

...8. Post #79 was voted "best post in thread" by a landslide. Congrats, RxnMan. Strong work....

Just doing my part.

On a related note, recently two of my cousins each had twins (not with each other). When my dad, an engineer of 20+ years, heard that there were 4 new additions to the family in two pregnancies, my dad said "Now THAT'S efficentcy!