Sad about med school v. babies

[QofQuimica]

Just doing my part.

On a related note, recently two of my cousins each had twins (not with each other). When my dad, an engineer of 20+ years, heard that there were 4 new additions to the family in two pregnancies, my dad said "Now THAT'S efficentcy!

A couple that I know recently had twins too; I am closer with the husband than with the wife, though I've met her several times. They have two older children who are in college. When I mentioned to a mutual acquaintance that this guy just had two more kids, the first question I got asked was, "with the same wife????"

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[efex101]

Sorry if this is not extremely coherent...but I am post call....

What I "glean" from Path1 posts is that some women in highly demanding careers that "initially" assume that they can manage a household, have two or more children, be a wife, be a friend, *and* work in any field that puts in many hours....may later realize that this is very very difficult. Once this happens some women will then "demand" from their coworkers certain leeway in hours worked, weekends on call, time off for X or Y with their children, etc. I myself have seen this happen both in the military and in the medical field. This is highly disruptive to other colleagues and should not be allowed. It was pretty frustrating when service women with children had most holidays off and those of us w/o kids had to spend our holidays pulling duties...it is also pretty frustrating when medical students/residents/physicians get to take less call, or leave early to take care of children while others that also may have kids have to pull regular hours/shifts. I do not think that her intention was to insinuate that ALL folks are made the same and everyone should have only one/two kids *but* that if you CHOOSE to have more children that you are cognizant that the rules may not be bent for your needs. What happens is that you will NOT know what you will need (time off, shifts off, etc) until you get there...so you "may" think that you can handle (and some do) three to four kids while working FT but then reality may sink in and then it is too late. Also, like you all know different specialties require different time commitments and radiology is great for a woman with a large family because the hours are very cush but something like IM is just not as forgiving. I hear a lot about part-time positions but these are just not that abundant and it may be a long time before you can find a position in your area that is part-time.

 

[Beau Geste]

Sorry if this is not extremely coherent...but I am post call....

What I "glean" from Path1 posts is that some women in highly demanding careers that "initially" assume that they can manage a household, have two or more children, be a wife, be a friend, *and* work in any field that puts in many hours....may later realize that this is very very difficult. Once this happens some women will then "demand" from their coworkers certain leeway in hours worked, weekends on call, time off for X or Y with their children, etc. I myself have seen this happen both in the military and in the medical field. This is highly disruptive to other colleagues and should not be allowed. It was pretty frustrating when service women with children had most holidays off and those of us w/o kids had to spend our holidays pulling duties...it is also pretty frustrating when medical students/residents/physicians get to take less call, or leave early to take care of children while others that also may have kids have to pull regular hours/shifts. I do not think that her intention was to insinuate that ALL folks are made the same and everyone should have only one/two kids *but* that if you CHOOSE to have more children that you are cognizant that the rules may not be bent for your needs. What happens is that you will NOT know what you will need (time off, shifts off, etc) until you get there...so you "may" think that you can handle (and some do) three to four kids while working FT but then reality may sink in and then it is too late. Also, like you all know different specialties require different time commitments and radiology is great for a woman with a large family because the hours are very cush but something like IM is just not as forgiving. I hear a lot about part-time positions but these are just not that abundant and it may be a long time before you can find a position in your area that is part-time.

Hi efex, good to hear from you! I don't think the issue is understanding what 1Path posted anymore. She's made it abundantly clear how she feels. We all got her point of view to the point of discussing it as a serious issue outside of SDN forums (the whole mother-career woman issue, not 1Path's issues).

She was not received well, however, because of her demeaning and insulting attitude. There are many ways to say how you feel. She could have said what you stated above (which is coherent, BTW) instead of feeling the need to belittle everyone who happened to disagree with her.

At any rate, what *else* can anyone add to this thread that hasn't been said already? THAT's what I want to read.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

At any rate, what *else* can anyone add to this thread that hasn't been said already? THAT's what I want to read.

We could talk about how this same prohibition exists for those of us men that actually want to have a very involved relationship with our kids...although possibly not to the same degree (another thread topic, maybe).


Personally, this fear is the major reason why I might go to FNP school after my accelerated BSN is done. I understand all the professional reasons why I should be a FP MD instead of a FNP. I also understand that attempting to put the possible needs of my family over the needs of the community I will eventually serve seems selfish from a utilitarian point of view [luckily, I no longer judge everything on the basis of utility]. But back to the topic.


Obviously a man can go to medical school and still be a good father. But it is possible that the age of the child / children heavily factors into this. If your kids are in school, then being gone all day probably isn't much more of a stress than having a job.

What about if your child is born while you are in school or residency? I'm sure it can be done if you have some family support, but how does it feel to miss those early moments?

 

[lilnoelle]

I have two kids (also without pain relief during my labor, although my labors were very short)... thought I'd have more after med school before I had the second... now I'm pretty sure I'm done. I will willingly place myself among those who claim to be to selfish to have children - I just didn't realize it until I had a second child. I love everything about my first child - and love everything about my second child, but am having a very hard time maintaining saintliness when I have them both at the same time.
I think part of the problem is that I don't have much outside help. My husband is a great helper, but we don't have family in town and don't really have a babysitter either.
Another problem is probably that I expect too much from myself, many recent discussion with other parents have made me realize that many mothers experience guilt about their parenting and also make a lot of the mistakes that I do. I had fantastic parents and perhaps expect more than is possible from myself.
Anyway, so I probably had one child too many - hate to call it a mistake, it wasn't, I'm glad that both of my children are a part of my life.... anyway, even if it was a mistake, it doesn't matter, I'm a mother to two children. I love them both. Theres nothing I can do about it except do the best that I can. (And probably avoid having more children).
Obviously making wise decisions (like for me avoiding a third child) is important, but the truth is, most people won't know what is too much until its too late.
So, perhaps the answer for me is to not go into medicine - well, as previously mentioned, I'm selfish. I'm not happy as a SAHM, in fact, I'm a worse mother as a SAHM than a working mother. So, I need a job, one I enjoy, that will afford us to have a stay at home parent, which will be, most likely, my husband, who is not nearly as motivated as I am (and a better parent).

Anyway, obviously the issue is a complicated one with different answers for different people. I congratulate those who have decided to not have children or to have only one child because its probably a smart decision. I also applaud those who have the patience and love and selflessness within them to raise many children. I wish I was more like you.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

I have two kids (also without pain relief during my labor, although my labors were very short)... thought I'd have more after med school before I had the second... now I'm pretty sure I'm done. I will willingly place myself among those who claim to be to selfish to have children - I just didn't realize it until I had a second child. I love everything about my first child - and love everything about my second child, but am having a very hard time maintaining saintliness when I have them both at the same time.
I think part of the problem is that I don't have much outside help. My husband is a great helper, but we don't have family in town and don't really have a babysitter either.
Another problem is probably that I expect too much from myself, many recent discussion with other parents have made me realize that many mothers experience guilt about their parenting and also make a lot of the mistakes that I do. I had fantastic parents and perhaps expect more than is possible from myself.
Anyway, so I probably had one child too many - hate to call it a mistake, it wasn't, I'm glad that both of my children are a part of my life.... anyway, even if it was a mistake, it doesn't matter, I'm a mother to two children. I love them both. Theres nothing I can do about it except do the best that I can. (And probably avoid having more children).
Obviously making wise decisions (like for me avoiding a third child) is important, but the truth is, most people won't know what is too much until its too late.
So, perhaps the answer for me is to not go into medicine - well, as previously mentioned, I'm selfish. I'm not happy as a SAHM, in fact, I'm a worse mother as a SAHM than a working mother. So, I need a job, one I enjoy, that will afford us to have a stay at home parent, which will be, most likely, my husband, who is not nearly as motivated as I am (and a better parent).

Anyway, obviously the issue is a complicated one with different answers for different people. I congratulate those who have decided to not have children or to have only one child because its probably a smart decision. I also applaud those who have the patience and love and selflessness within them to raise many children. I wish I was more like you.

yeah, two kids is a little insane. my second one is about to start walking and i keep thinking, "it's simply not possible for me to take care of two toddlers! how do women do it?" not a day goes by i don't lose it and snap at the kids. but at the same time, i want more. i'm not sure there's a rational way to explain it. my current theory is that if i wait 10 years, my current kids will be 11 and 12, so i'll be able to handle another couple of kids. i'm also: 1)choosing a family friendly specialty 2) husband (architect) will work part time 3)my mom and dad will be living with us and 4)we'll hire a nanny. i think it's a realistic plan. if my fertility doesn't hold out, we will adopt. also, if my son's special needs increase, we will cancel the additions to focus on him.

this thread has made me feel a lot better about the ten year wait. i'm exctied to welcome my next babies into a good situation where me and hubby have more money, room, and support than we do now. and i hope we (this generation of women doctors) can make medicine a more family-friendly place in the coming years.

thanks for all the replies that have cured my baby blues. you grrls (and guys) rock!

 

[ihavenoidea]

I have 2 as well. started med school with a 1 and 3 yr old. it's been a rough road so I have an IUD and have decided to wait abouy 6 or 7 yrs. I will be young...about 31 when residency is done and my kids will be 11 and 9. I think that is perfect and I will start fresh as well. I will look forward to it. I being an only child until 11 yrs of age...i want to give my kids plenty of playmates.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

I have 2 as well. started med school with a 1 and 3 yr old. it's been a rough road so I have an IUD and have decided to wait abouy 6 or 7 yrs. I will be young...about 31 when residency is done and my kids will be 11 and 9. I think that is perfect and I will start fresh as well. I will look forward to it. I being an only child until 11 yrs of age...i want to give my kids plenty of playmates.

i'm so happy to see someone with the same plan as me! makes me feel a little less weird. mine will also be 1 and 3 when I start. i'll be 36 when I finish residency but my grandmother got accidentally pregnant when she was 40. we're a pretty fertile family, so I'm optimistic.

good luck to you! i think the older kids will really like having little ones around based on experiences with friends.

 

[lilnoelle]

i'm so happy to see someone with the same plan as me! makes me feel a little less weird. mine will also be 1 and 3 when I start. i'll be 36 when I finish residency but my grandmother got accidentally pregnant when she was 40. we're a pretty fertile family, so I'm optimistic.

good luck to you! i think the older kids will really like having little ones around based on experiences with friends.

Mine are 1 and 3 too! I start next week.

 

[ihavenoidea]

noell and miesvan.....you both will be in for a long haul but it's been done before....I DID IT AND I SURVIVED....you both will as well. You will miss out on a lot of class get togethers and events but your fellow classmates will not discard you due to lack of socialism...rather they will look up to you and turn to you when things get rough for your advice because you will have your plate full. I wish you the best.

 

[rxlynn]

I have two kids (also without pain relief during my labor, although my labors were very short)... thought I'd have more after med school before I had the second... now I'm pretty sure I'm done. I will willingly place myself among those who claim to be to selfish to have children - I just didn't realize it until I had a second child. I love everything about my first child - and love everything about my second child, but am having a very hard time maintaining saintliness when I have them both at the same time.
I think part of the problem is that I don't have much outside help. My husband is a great helper, but we don't have family in town and don't really have a babysitter either.
Another problem is probably that I expect too much from myself, many recent discussion with other parents have made me realize that many mothers experience guilt about their parenting and also make a lot of the mistakes that I do. I had fantastic parents and perhaps expect more than is possible from myself.
Anyway, so I probably had one child too many - hate to call it a mistake, it wasn't, I'm glad that both of my children are a part of my life.... anyway, even if it was a mistake, it doesn't matter, I'm a mother to two children. I love them both. Theres nothing I can do about it except do the best that I can. (And probably avoid having more children).
Obviously making wise decisions (like for me avoiding a third child) is important, but the truth is, most people won't know what is too much until its too late.
So, perhaps the answer for me is to not go into medicine - well, as previously mentioned, I'm selfish. I'm not happy as a SAHM, in fact, I'm a worse mother as a SAHM than a working mother. So, I need a job, one I enjoy, that will afford us to have a stay at home parent, which will be, most likely, my husband, who is not nearly as motivated as I am (and a better parent).

Anyway, obviously the issue is a complicated one with different answers for different people. I congratulate those who have decided to not have children or to have only one child because its probably a smart decision. I also applaud those who have the patience and love and selflessness within them to raise many children. I wish I was more like you.

Hi - I was just visiting from the pre-pharm boards (I'm starting this fall in pharmacy school), and I had to respond to your post. I also have two children (3 years apart) and I have to say that I found the transition from 1 to 2 children to be much, much harder than from 0 to 1. I could have written your post myself - no family in town, very little babysitting help, difficulty dealing with both children at the same time, lousy SAHM - I'm right there with you!

I think I saw in another post that yours are ages 1 and 3. I think that was really the low point with me - I was working only very part-time that year, and I was really depressed. Everything at home started working better when I went back to work.

I just want to encourage you - don't be too hard on yourself. I don't have any easy answers for how to manage 2 at once, but please know that it will get easier than it is right now!! Mine are 4 and 7 now. Although they are still little girls, they have so much more capacity to do things for themselves, and to amuse themselves without me for a bit. Hang in there - I know it seems like time is dragging now, but very soon your kids will both be old enough for school and you will no longer be parenting toddlers or babies

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

noell and miesvan.....you both will be in for a long haul but it's been done before....I DID IT AND I SURVIVED....you both will as well. You will miss out on a lot of class get togethers and events but your fellow classmates will not discard you due to lack of socialism...rather they will look up to you and turn to you when things get rough for your advice because you will have your plate full. I wish you the best.

thanks for the encouragement i do worry about the social end of it. but i'm pretty lacking in the social skills area, so maybe me waiting to go to school until i have two kids was for the best

noell: we need to start a med students mom of 1 and 3 year olds honor society

 

[lilnoelle]

Hi - I was just visiting from the pre-pharm boards (I'm starting this fall in pharmacy school), and I had to respond to your post. I also have two children (3 years apart) and I have to say that I found the transition from 1 to 2 children to be much, much harder than from 0 to 1. I could have written your post myself - no family in town, very little babysitting help, difficulty dealing with both children at the same time, lousy SAHM - I'm right there with you!

I think I saw in another post that yours are ages 1 and 3. I think that was really the low point with me - I was working only very part-time that year, and I was really depressed. Everything at home started working better when I went back to work.

I just want to encourage you - don't be too hard on yourself. I don't have any easy answers for how to manage 2 at once, but please know that it will get easier than it is right now!! Mine are 4 and 7 now. Although they are still little girls, they have so much more capacity to do things for themselves, and to amuse themselves without me for a bit. Hang in there - I know it seems like time is dragging now, but very soon your kids will both be old enough for school and you will no longer be parenting toddlers or babies

Thanks for the encouragement, I know it'll get easier. My daughter has actually been pretty sweet lately (the older one) and its my son who's frustrating. Its sort of a relief to be able to feel gushy feelings towards my daughter again instead of the frustration I've experienced for the last year. For so long it was so easy to adore my son and much harder to feel the same way for my daughter, now the tables are turning a little bit. I'm happy about that because 1) my daughter is really the one that needs the extra attention/parenting/encouragement and 2) I know that my feelings towards my children is just a stage, much like feelings towards a spouse change when circumstances change, feelings towards my children will too. I just have to do what I can with what I have.
It really helps to know that other parents feel the same way. I was talking to my sister in law last week and pretty much spilling a lot of my frustrations i.e. wondering if I love my son more than my daughter, thinking I'm a bad mother, etc. She basically said that so many of the same things I've experienced she has also. Its just taboo to talk about it because of the guilt and the feelings that its abnormal to be this way. It doesn't help that when an individual is a new parent (especially a young one as I am) most other individuals my age don't have children and don't understand what its like to have children.
Theres been quite a few times that I've gotten frustrated with my daughter in a semi public place i.e. a restroom, walked out of the restroom, saw people around, and thought - did they hear me? what did I say? how loud did I talk to her? they think I'm a bad parent... maybe I am a bad parent... etc.

 

[ihavenoidea]

It is a phase based on the situation. When my daughter was little she was as sweet as can be and she got lots of love and attention but when that little demon child turned 3 it was hell on earth. I could not stand her to say the least.....the daycare centers were calling me around the clock and I would have to go get her...she even got kicked out. So naturally I felt closer to my son because he was 1 and was not getting into anything. The key thing though is to force yourself to love and pay attention to your child even though you may not feel like it because kids can sense it. The favoritism is hard as well I try not to kiss my son first all the time and things like that to mix it up. The baby seems to get away with murder and the older kids will resent it as we all have i'm sure... As far as lashing out at them in public areas....I let them both have it and then look at everyone else like " you want some?"...

 

[medanthgirl]

Just doing my part.

On a related note, recently two of my cousins each had twins (not with each other). When my dad, an engineer of 20+ years, heard that there were 4 new additions to the family in two pregnancies, my dad said "Now THAT'S efficentcy!

haha, good post, that is funny on multiple levels..!

 

[oxeye]

I have two kids (also without pain relief during my labor, although my labors were very short)... thought I'd have more after med school before I had the second... now I'm pretty sure I'm done. I will willingly place myself among those who claim to be to selfish to have children - I just didn't realize it until I had a second child. I love everything about my first child - and love everything about my second child, but am having a very hard time maintaining saintliness when I have them both at the same time.
I think part of the problem is that I don't have much outside help. My husband is a great helper, but we don't have family in town and don't really have a babysitter either.
Another problem is probably that I expect too much from myself, many recent discussion with other parents have made me realize that many mothers experience guilt about their parenting and also make a lot of the mistakes that I do. I had fantastic parents and perhaps expect more than is possible from myself.
Anyway, so I probably had one child too many - hate to call it a mistake, it wasn't, I'm glad that both of my children are a part of my life.... anyway, even if it was a mistake, it doesn't matter, I'm a mother to two children. I love them both. Theres nothing I can do about it except do the best that I can. (And probably avoid having more children).
Obviously making wise decisions (like for me avoiding a third child) is important, but the truth is, most people won't know what is too much until its too late.
So, perhaps the answer for me is to not go into medicine - well, as previously mentioned, I'm selfish. I'm not happy as a SAHM, in fact, I'm a worse mother as a SAHM than a working mother. So, I need a job, one I enjoy, that will afford us to have a stay at home parent, which will be, most likely, my husband, who is not nearly as motivated as I am (and a better parent).

Anyway, obviously the issue is a complicated one with different answers for different people. I congratulate those who have decided to not have children or to have only one child because its probably a smart decision. I also applaud those who have the patience and love and selflessness within them to raise many children. I wish I was more like you.

I could have written this post (minus the natural childbirth - I loved my epidural both times!!). I adore each of my children - but put them together and I feel like I could lose my mind sometimes.

I'm not cut out to be a SAHM, butI actually don't think I'm being selfish by choosing to go to medical school. It really is the best option for my family and the one that will make *everyone* the happiest. My mom had a cute little plaque on our wall growing up that said "If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." And it is so true. I will be a better wife and mother if I am doing what I am happiest doing - and my husband and children will benefit. I think my children will grow up better adjusted seeing a happy mom for less amount of time than a frustrated one all the time. At least this is how I hope it will work.

 

[supercut]

my mom was a full time SAHM and she felt guilty about not bringing in income and was always (still does) putting herself down and saying she was not very smart. it's no-win!

i also think, in reference to path's comments, if women are quitting over the conflict of family/work the problem might be the workplace, not the women. Half of medical students are now women. We want families, so why can't we change the way residencies are run? I shadowed a surgery resident who told me he only saw his kids twice a month. Why is this acceptable? The working world is designed in a way that punishes women for taking time out in their fertile years to stay home with small kids. why? most women are working outside the home these days and it's time for society to make some changes.

i really appreciate the stories of those of you raised by doctor moms it makes me feel better.

ETA: I understand path's point is for women RIGHT NOW to be realistic, but I wanted to raise the above point anyway

Amen, sister!

I am single, childless, 45 year old surgery resident. I'd like to not be single, not sure about kids...though the idea of adoption is becoming increasingly appealing (there's something about giving someone a chance at a life they wouldn't otherwise have...)

Anyway, I've been struggling a lot about whether to continue in surgery lately. Not because I don't like it, fundamentally, it fits me best. I just don't like all operations, and I don't like having no control of my life. Part of this frustration is that I'm in the midst of a rotation in which unexpectedly staying til 8 or 9 pm is routine. Call is minimal, and our hours are very compliant with the 80 hour limit. Still, I find it much more exhausting to put in 5 very long days in a row...I do much better with in house call every 4th night, and going home the next day. I resent not being able to make plans for any weeknight because it's impossible to know what time I can leave the hosptial. And the further along I progress in residency, the more I will enounter this type of schedule. Plus I have to spend more time on longer operations and more time doing operations I don't like.


Residencies are going to have to change to accomodate lifestyles, as is practice as an attening. Otherwise, we won't have enough doctors of any type. I think they will, but I think it will take a very long time (at least generation or two). And it will only happpen by people like us changing it from the inside.


As far as the child issue goes...we had at our program a married couple, both surgeons (they recently moved on to better job offers). They had 3 kids, all born while she was a resident. She specializes in breast surgery so is pretty lifestyle friendly.Most of the kid stuff fell to her. A lot of her stress, I think, was self-imposed....due to all of her kids being involved in multiple after school sports/activites. Her life outside the hospital consisted primarily of running all her kids to various activities. Competitive parenting, as I call it, affects parents these days in all walks of life, and affects working vs stay at home moms equally. I think part of successfully balancing a career and kids is to try to ignore the pressure from other parents to have your kids involved in all these things.

 

[1Path]

I don't think the issue is understanding what 1Path posted anymore. She's made it abundantly clear how she feels. We all got her point of view to the point of discussing it as a serious issue outside of SDN forums (the whole mother-career woman issue, not 1Path's issues).

She was not received well, however, because of her demeaning and insulting attitude. There are many ways to say how you feel. She could have said what you stated above (which is coherent, BTW) instead of feeling the need to belittle everyone who happened to disagree with her..

I'm EXTREMELTY disappointed in your inability to save to slick attempts at insulting me for personal message. The fact is that to some I sound harsh to others just truthful, so lets try to do the mature thing, allow people to express themselves in what ever way THEY see fit, and let this go for once and for all.

 

[Beau Geste]

I'm EXTREMELTY disappointed in your inability to save to slick attempts at insulting me for personal message. The fact is that to some I sound harsh to others just truthful, so lets try to do the mature thing, allow people to express themselves in what ever way THEY see fit, and let this go for once and for all.

As long as you take your own advice.

 

[1Path]

Now about the breast surgeron that had 3 kids in residency, 2 years ago I had a similar type surgery by a resident that had also had kids while in residency. And to quote my previous surgeon who I had to see after she mucked me up with serious complications too boot (who incidentally had kids AFTER residency), she did a pretty *hitty job.

Now perhaps there's no relationship to her poor surgical skills and her decision to have many kids while training to be a surgeon. But as Mom I can certainly vouch for the fact that it's awfully hard to do motherhood with INFANTS and anything else very well, not to mention a surgical residency. Women don't like to talk/hear of this because they prefer to keep the illusion that they can do anything whenever THEY want and we live in "polictally correct" times!

 

[medanthgirl]

Now perhaps there's no relationship to her poor surgical skills and her decision to have many kids while training to be a surgeon. But as Mom I can certainly vouch for the fact that it's awfully hard to do motherhood with INFANTS and anything else very well, not to mention a surgical residency. :

oooffff....but the list of things that can make a doctor a crappy doctor are infinate!!! turns out the gp that missed my mom's kidney disease just got his liscence removed b/c of dui's and dabbing in prescription drug use....doctors just like everyone have to face a multitude of challenges....and i think parenting is only one aspect

a host of things that could drive one into a really stressful or tense situation:
taking care of parents/parents illness
getting slammed w/ a lawsuit or accusations of misconduct
personal illness and/or trauma
divorce
departmental drama and backstabbing
hx of depression
deep debt
and on and on and on.....


we can't go writing off practicioners just because they had a behbee...are you ready to assume that doctor w/o kids is better than a female doctor with kids? again,
i agree that there is a spectrum of women that handle these duties (including children) poorly and those that handle it incredibly well due to certain factors in their lives...but are you lumping all women into one category? i don't think that's fair..

 

[Severus]

Hmm.. I always kind of wanted to adopt sometime during my potential mud-phud or residency, but I'm beginning to think that being a single mother academic surgeon is simply not a realistic goal. I seriously need a time turner.

 

[1Path]

oooffff....but the list of things that can make a doctor a crappy doctor are infinate!!! fair..

Do you agree that stating the obvious is a bit redundant?

but are you lumping all women into one category? i don't think that's fair..

No I'm not but YOU are but making the inference that that's what I'm doing. I spoke of MY EXPERIENCE and I think my command of the english language has sufficietly progressed to the point that if I was TRYING to make statements NOT inferences about breast surgeons, MY statement would have "read" differently.

Look, it's pretty clear that WHATEVER I write in this thread is going to be misconstrued so what waste time asking rhetorical questions?

 

[Beau Geste]

Now about the breast surgeron that had 3 kids in residency, 2 years ago I had a similar type surgery by a resident that had also had kids while in residency. And to quote my previous surgeon who I had to see after she mucked me up with serious complications too boot (who incidentally had kids AFTER residency), she did a pretty *hitty job.

Now perhaps there's no relationship to her poor surgical skills and her decision to have many kids while training to be a surgeon. But as Mom I can certainly vouch for the fact that it's awfully hard to do motherhood with INFANTS and anything else very well, not to mention a surgical residency. Women don't like to talk/hear of this because they prefer to keep the illusion that they can do anything whenever THEY want and we live in "polictally correct" times!

You're entitled to your opinion, but when you write things like this and *roll eyes* it's going to get construed as a generality toward all women from your example.

Chill out.

 

[1Path]

Hmm.. I always kind of wanted to adopt sometime during my potential mud-phud or residency, but I'm beginning to think that being a single mother academic surgeon is simply not a realistic goal. I seriously need a time turner.

As a Mom, I'd say it depends. If you become one of those Moms that wants to breast feed round the clock for 3 years as a resident, then I'd say that's an unrealistic goal. If you want to be a Mom that wants to see the first steps, hear the first words, while a resident or academic physician, then I'd say it that's an unrealistic goal. If you HAVE to attend every PTA meeting and soccer match, that I'd say is an unrealistic goal.

OTOH, if you're OK with with ideals like using daycare, housekeepers, and buying cookies at Whole Foods instead of baking them from scratch, then I'd say that you've got a decent shot at "having it all"!!!! Just don't let anyone "judge" you for your single parent choices!!!!

 

[Beau Geste]

My mom baked cookies from scratch for me when she was in med school. She also helped with my homework. She also sewed my grade school graduation dress. During residency she made my prom dress.

She knew how to manage her time.

You see, for every bad example of a mother that's a doctor you show, someone can show a good example. It pretty much depends on the person.

Daycare, housekeepers, and Sam's Club are not bad things.

 

[medanthgirl]

As a Mom, I'd say it depends. If you become one of those Moms that wants to breast feed round the clock for 3 years as a resident, then I'd say that's an unrealistic goal. If you want to be a Mom that wants to see the first steps, hear the first words, while a resident or academic physician, then I'd say it that's an unrealistic goal. If you HAVE to attend every PTA meeting and soccer match, that I'd say is an unrealistic goal.

OTOH, if you're OK with with ideals like using daycare, housekeepers, and buying cookies at Whole Foods instead of baking them from scratch, then I'd say that you've got a decent shot at "having it all"!!!! Just don't let anyone "judge" you for your single parent choices!!!!

definately agree...your medical practice can't be comprimised by motherhood, however, the ability you are able to be and see things with your child will be. but i've learned from the docs i work with to try to max out your away from hospital time w/ your kids.

and people are going to judge us for other things other than just being moms, i think it's just one item of a portfolio that family members, friends, colleagues, nurses, whatever will choose to comment on/have opinions about.

 

[Beau Geste]

definately agree...your medical practice can't be comprimised by motherhood, however, the ability you are able to be and see things with your child will be. but i've learned from the docs i work with to try to max out your away from hospital time w/ your kids.

and people are going to judge us for other things other than just being moms, i think it's just one item of a portfolio that family members, friends, colleagues, nurses, whatever will choose to comment on/have opinions about.

Yeah, I've noticed that the people who are hardest on career moms are other women. We are so catty.

 

[Tribeca]

It seems like whenever we (as in we=women contemplating having children in the future along with a medical career) decide to have kids, there's always going to be a compromise. So when's the "best" time to compromise? When will we be "less" busy - before med school, during med school, while in residency, or after residency? (Although after residency seems too long of a wait. ) I do see myself as the the type of mom who's gonna want to breast-feed and be there for the first words and first steps. When's the "best" time to have kids so that I'll be able to do that? Any opinions?

 

[EUA]

Yes, I *am* a woman who is irritated with career moms who think that they can do it all without shortchanging any aspect of their lives. They shortchange their employers and coworkers, their kids, their husbands, and themselves. Yes, I'm generalizing so please keep the screeching yowls of protest to yourself.

I don't think that society and the field of medicine should change to accommodate women who want families. Is getting your medical education supposed to be a piece of cake? Should it get dumbed down for people who don't want to commit all their time? Hey, if a woman who loves kids also loves medicine, we have nursing and physician assisting -- perfect.

I am sick and tired of the mothers in my program taking advantage of the system. I am tired of picking up their slack. I'm tired of watching them leave early to do some kid-related activity while I work late. I'm tired of having to work holidays because it's assumed that they must mean nothing to me, being childless. I'm tired of society for allowing this kind of behavior and expecting that everyone else bend over backwards to accommodate these people. We all do the same job and we all owe it the same amount of dedication and commitment. Hey, just because I don't have kids doesn't mean I don't have plenty of stuff going on in my personal life.

I understand not all working moms are this way; however, there are enough of you to have garnered the reputation you collectively have. I'm sorry you feel like you are not respected, but respect is earned. Work hard, be smart, show your dedication, and maybe the respect will come.

 

[Severus]

As a Mom, I'd say it depends. If you become one of those Moms that wants to breast feed round the clock for 3 years as a resident, then I'd say that's an unrealistic goal. If you want to be a Mom that wants to see the first steps, hear the first words, while a resident or academic physician, then I'd say it that's an unrealistic goal. If you HAVE to attend every PTA meeting and soccer match, that I'd say is an unrealistic goal.

OTOH, if you're OK with with ideals like using daycare, housekeepers, and buying cookies at Whole Foods instead of baking them from scratch, then I'd say that you've got a decent shot at "having it all"!!!! Just don't let anyone "judge" you for your single parent choices!!!!

Well then maybe. I wouldn't touch PTA meetings with a 10-foot pole even if I had the time

 

[medanthgirl]

It seems like whenever we (as in we=women contemplating having children in the future along with a medical career) decide to have kids, there's always going to be a compromise. So when's the "best" time to compromise? When will we be "less" busy - before med school, during med school, while in residency, or after residency? (Although after residency seems too long of a wait. ) I do see myself as the the type of mom who's gonna want to breast-feed and be there for the first words and first steps. When's the "best" time to have kids so that I'll be able to do that? Any opinions?

i think you just have to get over the sentiment of that and realize that you'll be there for other moments. short of being a stay at home mom i don't think there's any other way you can guarantee 'first words and steps'. women that work a normal 40 hours a week miss that stuff too....
so ironic, we never hear men boo-hooing this stuff, sigh...

 

[oxeye]

It seems like whenever we (as in we=women contemplating having children in the future along with a medical career) decide to have kids, there's always going to be a compromise. So when's the "best" time to compromise? When will we be "less" busy - before med school, during med school, while in residency, or after residency? (Although after residency seems too long of a wait. ) I do see myself as the the type of mom who's gonna want to breast-feed and be there for the first words and first steps. When's the "best" time to have kids so that I'll be able to do that? Any opinions?

I chose to have my kids before medical school for this reason. I was fortunate in that I found my partner when I was young. We married when I was 22, and had our first baby when I was 23. I was fairly certain I wanted to pursue medicine but also knew that I would want to breastfeed and be home when my kids were little. I feel less strongly about needing to be with them 24/7 as they get older so I think this was a good decision for me.

My girls will be 2 and 4 when I start medical school (assuming all goes well with applying this year!!). They'll be in daycare at the beginning, but at their ages it's more like extended preschool hours. In a few years, they will both be in school most of the day. My husband works from home and they will be able to be at home with him after school when they are older.

I think the best time to have kids really depends on when you think it is most vital for them to be around their mom. I feel strongly that this is when they are very young and forming their first attachments. Others may feel differently - they could have kids during residency so that they are done with residency and hopefully in a specialty with a lot of flexibility so they can be around their kids a lot to supervise the high school age.

 

[medanthgirl]

I understand not all working moms are this way; however, there are enough of you to have garnered the reputation you collectively have. I'm sorry you feel like you are not respected, but respect is earned. Work hard, be smart, show your dedication, and maybe the respect will come.

yes, please let's not write each other off collectively....

 

[oxeye]

Well then maybe. I wouldn't touch PTA meetings with a 10-foot pole even if I had the time

Same here!!!!

 

[1Path]

............please keep the screeching yowls of protest to yourself..

Amen, sister, amen!!!!!

I don't think that society and the field of medicine should change to accommodate women who want families. .

What's interesting as a woman who'll be 40 this year, is that the HUGE difference between my Mom (in her 60's), me, and women today. Neither I nor my Mom "expected "society to bend over backwards trying to accomadate our familial needs. But working women these days, generally expect 'EVERYONE to accomadate them.Unfortunately, if women don't get it together soon, most if not all of the gains we've in the past 50 years will disappear.

I'm sorry you feel like you are not respected, but respect is earned. Work hard, be smart, show your dedication, and maybe the respect will come.

My question to women in academia is if YOU decide to take 5 years off to have 3 kids, why should you and I, all things being equal professionally AND I only took 12 weeks off to have 3 kids, get tenure at around the same time (with illness being excluded of course)? Folks want to talk about "fairness", but where's the fairness is this?

The ONLY exceptions I think should be made in the workforce are for illness and the reason is clear. We are ALL at some point or another, going to need someone to take care of us. I also think famly medical leave should be extended on a case by case basis.

 

[1Path]

Well then maybe. I wouldn't touch PTA meetings with a 10-foot pole even if I had the time

Can you say Mommy wars??? SAHM's versus working Moms! It's no wonder PTA meetings don't get much done for the kids!

 

[chopper]

Amen, sister, amen!!!!!

But working women these days, generally expect 'EVERYONE to accomadate them..

This is a trait not held exclusively by working women. I've noticed this attitude among a large cross section of the population. I was talking with my academic advisor about the age thing, and he said something to the effect that some felt that all the younger med students had this attitude.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

Why shouldn't medicine be more family-friendly? Why is it an absurd notion for mothers and fathers to get to spend time with their children? Why should being a doctor exclude having the family a person wants? I think it's a perfectly rational idea. Someone above suggested a person become a NP or nurse if they want time with their family. Well, a NP and nurse don't do the same kind of work as a doctor, so they're not interchangable. Why is it implicit to being a doctor to work insane hours? The whole idea of it being progress that women now are entering medicine in equal numbers is that we should CHANGE THINGS FOR THE BETTER. If they let us in and we just keep our mouths shut and perpetuate the Old Boys Club, what's the point?

I take my son to a lot of doctors and I'd like to think they get spend time with their families. I think most patients would like for their doctors to have a life outside medicine. There's no reason the system can't be changed and in al honesty I know it would make for better doctors and happier patients. Viva La Revolucion.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

Well then maybe. I wouldn't touch PTA meetings with a 10-foot pole even if I had the time

my mom was a SAHM and also hated PTA meetings

 

[1Path]

This is a trait not held exclusively by working women. I've noticed this attitude among a large cross section of the population. I was talking with my academic advisor about the age thing, and he said something to the effect that some felt that all the younger med students had this attitude.

Agreed!

 

[1Path]

Why is it implicit to being a doctor to work insane hours? .

Shorter hours may work for some medical specialties, but surgery or ob/gyn? Not gonna work!

Patient: Doctor, I think I'm about to deliver my baby!
Doctor: OK, but you at least wait until AFTER my son's T-ball game!!!

And if I needed a heart transplant, I'd prefer it get done with the SAME doc and in one take!

 

[Beau Geste]

Shorter hours may work for some medical specialties, but surgery or ob/gyn? Not gonna work!

Patient: Doctor, I think I'm about to deliver my baby!
Doctor: OK, but you at least wait until AFTER my son's T-ball game!!!

And if I needed a heart transplant, I'd prefer it get done with the SAME doc and in one take!

How about giving *most* women credit that they do know their limits. We're not all out to be neurosurgeons.

Sheesh!

 

[Beau Geste]

Why shouldn't medicine be more family-friendly? Why is it an absurd notion for mothers and fathers to get to spend time with their children? Why should being a doctor exclude having the family a person wants? I think it's a perfectly rational idea. Someone above suggested a person become a NP or nurse if they want time with their family. Well, a NP and nurse don't do the same kind of work as a doctor, so they're not interchangable. Why is it implicit to being a doctor to work insane hours? The whole idea of it being progress that women now are entering medicine in equal numbers is that we should CHANGE THINGS FOR THE BETTER. If they let us in and we just keep our mouths shut and perpetuate the Old Boys Club, what's the point?

I take my son to a lot of doctors and I'd like to think they get spend time with their families. I think most patients would like for their doctors to have a life outside medicine. There's no reason the system can't be changed and in al honesty I know it would make for better doctors and happier patients. Viva La Revolucion.

Don't worry about it - when you interview for a job - WHATEVER specialty you go into, you'll know what's right for you and your family.

Don't let someone you've never met make you feel insecure about your parenting skills.

You're doing great now and you'll do fine as a doctor, too.

 

[1Path]

How about giving *most* women credit that they do know their limits. We're not all out to be neurosurgeons.

Sheesh!

And to think I got a warning for jokingly calling you a mega*itch earlier in his thread. Well after your repeated "jabs" and despite my desperate attempt to ignore you, I'd say that I'm dam serious about that statement now boo!

 

[Beau Geste]

And to think I got a warning for jokingly calling you a mega*itch earlier in his thread. Well after your repeated "jabs" and despite my desperate attempt to ignore you, I'd say that I'm dam serious about that statement now boo!

That's not a jab. That's a direct reply to your comment. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

As I've said before, this is a forum, where people are allowed to discuss. There are a lot of people who read these forums and some actually have differing opinions.

Hey, you can call me anything you want. Just learn to take responsibility for it.

 

[1Path]

This may be a good time to start listing some medical specialities that Moms we know have been able to balance well without a SAHD or full-time nanny. Of course, the only caveat and this is simply being realistic, is that the family have no more than 3 kids:

1) Pathology
2) PM & R
3) Public Health Department OG/GYN, Pediatrician, Family Practitioner - Perhaps any clinic work would qualify as Mom friendly.

Anyone else care to add to the list?

 

[Beau Geste]

Anesthesiology
Dermatology
Radiology
Opthalmology
Gen. Surg.
Gastro
Rheumo
Uro

Let's also give the dads a little credit for being able to pick kids up after work, or even staying home, which is whay my husband will do.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Why shouldn't medicine be more family-friendly? Why is it an absurd notion for mothers and fathers to get to spend time with their children? Why should being a doctor exclude having the family a person wants? I think it's a perfectly rational idea. Someone above suggested a person become a NP or nurse if they want time with their family. Well, a NP and nurse don't do the same kind of work as a doctor, so they're not interchangable. Why is it implicit to being a doctor to work insane hours? The whole idea of it being progress that women now are entering medicine in equal numbers is that we should CHANGE THINGS FOR THE BETTER. If they let us in and we just keep our mouths shut and perpetuate the Old Boys Club, what's the point?

I take my son to a lot of doctors and I'd like to think they get spend time with their families. I think most patients would like for their doctors to have a life outside medicine. There's no reason the system can't be changed and in al honesty I know it would make for better doctors and happier patients. Viva La Revolucion.

I agree. I think with the changing dynamics in the United States work force over the past 50 years as well as our tendency for "workaholic" syndrome there needs to be a balance. I also think that many "families" are realizing this (or maybe that is too hopeful - at least I hope they are realizing). Families need time together for stability. For parents to be involved and mold their child's life as well as vice versa.

I was specifically looking at a specialties with a high call ratio and stress such as an intensivist. (Just happens to be part of the field I'm most interested in) You pretty much LIVE at the hospital. But as much as you live at the hospital and its a 6 year "residency/fellowship", with q4 call, the people who have families and love their jobs find their "balance". It seems everyone finds a balance. Some people rely on others for child care, which honestly I don't see how you can't. We plan on hiring help either in the house or if we found a "group" care in which a group of doctors paid for services, that would be WONDERFUL! Unless you have the luxury of having a spouse stay at home, which many families don't have these days, then balance and help is the way to go. Au-pair and nannies are the way to go.

 

[efex101]

Although it would be *nice* to think that yes we can indeed change the nature of the beast called medicine the reality is that medicine is FULL of type A workaholics. If change ever occurs it will be well beyond our practicing years. There have been some very good points made that everyone needs to really ponder about and take to heart. Just because a person (man or woman) choose to have children does not give them the right to then bring forth more work on their colleagues. We all need time to do things that have nothing to do with medicine but it seems that some folks with families take advantage of this fact and then *expect* to have certain days off, holidays off, go home after whatever time to pick up Johny or Annie, etc. This can cause a lot of problems for the REST of your colleagues. This is more true during residency when having Q4 call can become nightmarish if ONE person is not pulling their weight. We all think that we are superpeople and can handle anything...but Q4 is no joke! although it is nowhere near as bad as Q2-3 it is still not the best situation. So if you add to this one person having to be "off" or going home "early" it is much harder on all colleagues involved. I am not insinuating that folks should not have a "life" or a family but also consider what you are going to "want" from this life/family and how this will affect others. Sadly, medicine is just LONG hours period. If you want to do general surgery then do not even think of working cushy hours and being able to go to even HALF of your kids events. It will be very difficult indeed. If you want to be Suzie or Johny Homemaker then maybe medicine is not the best thing right now. Medicine is very consuming and it all looks great from the pre-med side of things when you still have NO clue of the time and effort you will need to put forth. Once you hit medical school and more specifically the wards *then* you start to take off the rose colored glasses. Residency will even bare the soul of medicine even more for you and by that time it may be too late....because your residency choice is made. I think that many folks are assuming (not here but just the vibe I get in general) that they WILL and CAN have the best of both worlds at the same time. Yes, this may be true for a SMALL MINORITY but for most mortals this being super mommy/daddy and a full time physician is just very difficult to achieve. Know that you will NOT be able to be the BEST at both worlds and *that* is okay. As long as YOU can live with being there sometimes for your kids, missing a lot of events, just being tired when you get home and not wanting to do much, etc...will take a lot of the pressure off. Also, a lot of these comparisons with folks that went through medicine many years ago just does not hold true for the practices that most physicians face today. There is way more litigation now than years ago, there is a larger fund of knowledge that we have to master now than years ago, medicine has changed a lot and it keeps changing...just keeping up is exhausting. So again, realize that there will be many sacrifices along the way and this may entail sacrificing time with the ones you love.