Salary support during research residency

[9732doc]

Hi all,
I'm applying in a field where there is no dedicated research track, like ABIM short track, or Rad Onc's Holman Pathway. So I've been trying to create a pathway for myself. Programs have been responsive and are willing to give protected time. I've also selected places where I have strong relationships with research mentors who would give me a lab home while in residency. It's the final hour now and I'm thinking about additional things I might want to address before committing. One thing some people have suggested is enhanced salary support, above the normal PGY-x salary. I've noticed that at dedicated PSTPs and similar type research-residency programs, almost all of them provide some kind of enhanced salary during training, and then significantly more in the PGY3+ years. I'm hesitant to bring this up but it's something not without precedent, since many programs do this. The extra funds would help for things like conferences, computer, society fees, and of course, the extra time we spend doing research. What do you think? Worth bringing up? Downside is that I come off as a showboat or ungrateful for what is already being offered. Thoughts?

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[Fencer]

Focus the conversation on pilot support for research and/or conferences, rather than salary. Indicate that this extra support increases your chances of success into a K award.

 

[9732doc]

Focus the conversation on pilot support for research and/or conferences, rather than salary. Indicate that this extra support increases your chances of success into a K award.

@Fencer Thank you for your insight! So I take it you don't think this is an appropriate topic to bring up and not over-reaching? I'll frame the discussion in the way you suggest.

 

[Neuronix]

I've never heard of more salary for research track residents. Maybe I'm out of the loop. Can you link me to a source on this?

If someone brought up more salary as a resident in my specialty because they're doing research, they'd probably be laughed out of the office and dropped off of the rank list.

I agree with Fencer. Focus on things that will help you do and present research.

 

[9732doc]

I've never heard of more salary for research track residents. Maybe I'm out of the loop. Can you link me to a source on this?

If someone brought up more salary as a resident in my specialty because they're doing research, they'd probably be laughed out of the office and dropped off of the rank list.

I agree with Fencer. Focus on things that will help you do and present research.

@Neuronix I wouldn't have believed (nor thought of it) if I hadn't seen it in a number of places. Some schools are WUSTL, NW, Vanderbilt, UTSW, OSU, Duke, and others. We're not talking huge money, but several thousand per year extra, and some (IM programs) 15K+ more after PGY3.

Internal Medicine
- Support | Department of Medicine
- Physician-Scientist Training Program: Development and Alumni Relations: Feinberg School of Medicine: Northwestern University
- PSTPProgram
- Physician Scientist Training Program (PSTP)
- Physician Scientist Training Program | Ohio State Medical Center
- Internal Medicine Physician Scientist Training Program (PSTP)
- Physician-Scientist Development Program
- Physician Scientist Residency Program
- ABIM Research Track
- About the Pathway | Physician Scientist Training Pathway
- Frequently Asked Questions (Cedars-Sinai)
- Physician Scientist Training Program - U of U School of Medicine - | University of Utah

Anesthesiology

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*Some specific programs*
- Residency Research: Farm Program (Stanford)
- Residency Program - Duke Anesthesiology
- WU Scholars Program | Anesthesiology | Washington University in St. Louis
- Physician Scientist Training Program | Anesthesiology | Medical College of Wisconsin
- UW Anesthesiology & Pain Medicine: Bonica Scholars Program

Pediatrics
- PePSTP (MD/PhD)

Dermatology
- Physician Scientist Training Program (PSTP)

Pathology
- Physician Scientist Training Program | Department of Pathology & Immunology

Neurology
- Physician Scientist Training Program (PSTP): The Ken & Ruth Davee Department of Neurology: Feinberg School of Medicine: Northwestern University
- Neurology Physician-Scientist Training Program (Cedars-Sinai)

Psychiatry
- Research Track | Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences

 

[Neuronix]

Wow isn't that wild! Ok thanks for the many references. I would find someone you trust in the specialty you're talking about and run it by them. I'm in rad onc and I would not expect that to be offered and would not bring it up.

 

[9732doc]

Thanks @Neuronix for the advice. You're right. I've been leaning on people I trust to try to guide me. I'm conflicted to bring it up, since it could go well or not-so-well. Also, didn't mean to bludgeon you with all the links but I figured it might be a useful resource for future visitors wondering about this.

 

[Neuronix]

I bludgeon people with links all the time. It's the first time I've been bludgeoned back

 

[gbwillner]

I was at one of the programs you mention for a PSTP, but my department was not formally part of the program, so I had to create it. It became a formal program within 3 years of my initiation of it. That all being said, I did not get the salary bump, nor the minimal additional resources for computers or travel. My point here is that if I couldn't get that within one of these institutions, it is very doubtful you could do it where such a program doesn't even exist.

It may sound weird, but once you know how departmental budgets work you will see why what you ask is likely impossible. I also agree that asking for more cash isn't going to make you look like a dedicated clinical scientist, and you should focus on just getting protected time and mentorship.

 

[9732doc]

I was at one of the programs you mention for a PSTP, but my department was not formally part of the program, so I had to create it. It became a formal program within 3 years of my initiation of it. That all being said, I did not get the salary bump, nor the minimal additional resources for computers or travel. My point here is that if I couldn't get that within one of these institutions, it is very doubtful you could do it where such a program doesn't even exist.

It may sound weird, but once you know how departmental budgets work you will see why what you ask is likely impossible. I also agree that asking for more cash isn't going to make you look like a dedicated clinical scientist, and you should focus on just getting protected time and mentorship.

@gbwillner Thanks for the insights. Congrats on making your own way and setting a foundation for a PSTP.

To clarify, all of the institutions under consideration have one or more PSTPs. It is the particular field (and thus, department) I'm applying into that doesn't. Regardless, point taken. I believe that departmental budgets are probably messy in ways I don't comprehend yet. The salary stuff is not even the most important consideration. Mentorship and time, as you say, are. But it was a topic that I got mixed advice on and wanted to bring up for discussion here.

 

[kchan99]

I wasn't in a formal PSTP program. I negotiated protected time for research once I had a viable research project. I front loaded my schedule so that I could have continuous months of research time or light electives. I also found my own mentor. Funding for meeting travel wasn't an issue at my program.

 

[dl2dp2]

It may sound weird, but once you know how departmental budgets work you will see why what you ask is likely impossible. I also agree that asking for more cash isn't going to make you look like a dedicated clinical scientist, and you should focus on just getting protected time and mentorship.

You can ask, and I don't think it'll hurt you. You'll never get anything if you don't ask, but especially if you make up a good reason (family is usually a good reason in a HCOL), there's a slim chance that you might get a pay bump for working on something extra. Also, w.r.t. research funds, IMO and experience "protected time" and "mentorship" are essentially worthless unless you can back it up at the same time with money. Mentorship in particular is not useful if the said mentor has no access to resources. Institutions may sing a tune that they are interested in specific topical development, but unless they actually back it up with real resources, it's all talk. On the other hand, if you HAVE resources, both mentorship and "protected time" can be bought as "consultant time" and is very clearly a commodity. Don't fall into the trap that I have fallen into before where you believe the charms of a senior faculty and volunteer your time and enthusiasm for some exploratory pie-in-the-sky idea with 0 institutional support.

I would say salary supplement for residents/research track fellows is becoming more of a trend, as the salary disparity between clinical and research jobs increases, more departments are offering slight pay bumps in attempt to prevent attrition during the "blackout years" of the pipeline. Competition ensues. Nevertheless, the real moneymakers in these pipelines have always been and will always be from private efforts unrelated to federally sponsored research. And these efforts vary greatly depending on your specialty and institution.

 

[gbwillner]

You can ask, and I don't think it'll hurt you. You'll never get anything if you don't ask, but especially if you make up a good reason (family is usually a good reason in a HCOL), there's a slim chance that you might get a pay bump for working on something extra. Also, w.r.t. research funds, IMO and experience "protected time" and "mentorship" are essentially worthless unless you can back it up at the same time with money. Mentorship in particular is not useful if the said mentor has no access to resources. Institutions may sing a tune that they are interested in specific topical development, but unless they actually back it up with real resources, it's all talk. On the other hand, if you HAVE resources, both mentorship and "protected time" can be bought as "consultant time" and is very clearly a commodity. Don't fall into the trap that I have fallen into before where you believe the charms of a senior faculty and volunteer your time and enthusiasm for some exploratory pie-in-the-sky idea with 0 institutional support.

I would say salary supplement for residents/research track fellows is becoming more of a trend, as the salary disparity between clinical and research jobs increases, more departments are offering slight pay bumps in attempt to prevent attrition during the "blackout years" of the pipeline. Competition ensues. Nevertheless, the real moneymakers in these pipelines have always been and will always be from private efforts unrelated to federally sponsored research. And these efforts vary greatly depending on your specialty and institution.

It may be important to specify what you are getting in these programs and what is meant by salary "supplement". As I mentioned, I did not get a supplement, but that does not mean I didn't get anything. What I got was:

1. Spent 6 months of PGY3 doing 100% protected research time, effectively using all my clinical elective time for research, with no clinical responsibility. No Call.
2. Paid PGY level salary during post-doc without doing ANY clinical work. This is a big deal for the clinical department to give you and expect literally nothing in return
3. Instructor appointment, with virtually no clinical responsibility. This could be extended for up to 3 years.
4. Still have access to dept. travel policy, books, etc. So they paid me to attend whatever meetings I got accepted abstracts to. That was about 3x year. Didn't matter if I was doing research or clinical work.
5. Mentorship I agree is not really "worth" anything. What PI wouldn't take a free MD/PhD post-doc? I got my pick. The clinical faculty still met with me routinely.

What others in the "formal" program got that I did not:
1. extra "supplement" of $2500 for computers and other expenses
2. extra $15,000 supplement during the Post-Doc years (and maybe instructorship? I can't recall)

So I agree that if you don't ask you can't get it at all; and there is little to lose... but I suppose it depends on what leverage you have, as in any negotiation. I set this as a condition to matriculate at this program, so they were willing to do it to get me. Others I know with similar backgrounds started in the program but didn't ask for PSTP until they were already in. They basically got nothing guaranteed, certainly not the paid PGY salary by the clinical department.

 

[ganglia777]

I've never heard of more salary for research track residents. Maybe I'm out of the loop. Can you link me to a source on this?

If someone brought up more salary as a resident in my specialty because they're doing research, they'd probably be laughed out of the office and dropped off of the rank list.

I agree with Fencer. Focus on things that will help you do and present research.

Traditionally no, but Stanford pays around $80K for research track residents. That's a lot of money.
Also, there are some residents that work at companies or have their own startups, thus supplementing their income. One example is Vineeta Agarwala, who works at Google at the same time shes doing her research residency. GV / Vineeta Agarwala

Another example is Agnieszka Czechowicz, who worked at Third Rock Ventures when she was a resident. Meet the Fellows | Agnieszka Czechowicz

 

[Neuronix]

I can tell you that Stanford does not pay that for rad onc research track residents.

I personally consulted for a company as a resident. I was expressly forbidden by my home institution from making any more than my resident salary.

 

[9732doc]

An update. I asked. It wasn't a 'how dare you, get the hell out of here', as I initially feared. Details still being fleshed out, but the point is, it doesn't hurt to ask. Do it deferentially and with specific reasons. Citing the PSTPs doesn't hurt either. YMMV.

 

[ganglia777]

I can tell you that Stanford does not pay that for rad onc research track residents.

I personally consulted for a company as a resident. I was expressly forbidden by my home institution from making any more than my resident salary.

well, it looks like it's just for their ABIM. "For the research years, this ACGME salary is approximately $80K/year"

Maybe since IM subspecialties typically pay less than others. Physician Scientist Residency Program