Save The Merger

[AnonymousD.O.]

I apologize for this really long post…….And i've put this in another couple threads…but just trying to spread the word here.

But the true facts on the ground play out like this…..basically we could do nothing and this merger will happen:

Essentially the ACGME forced the AOA's hand by saying they would lock us out of fellowships, then told the AOA that if they joined, basically we would get access to fellowships again….however with the caveat that essentially they would strip the AOA of most of its powers. This is the main reason it fell apart in the first place… Not out of spite but because the ACGME is worried about the GME crunch everyone knows is coming….

Here is what a lot of people don't know and don't understand……..there were some serious power brokers who brought them back to the table….and guess who it was?….The Feds. They basically told both sides that since THEY are the one's PAYING for it….they want a unified system…Period. Essentially some high-ups in the government told the ACGME and AOA to play nice, get along, and fix the problem….or they were going to do it for them and neither side would like the result. Hence why they sat back at the table and hammered out an agreement so quickly (the second time around). The federal government finally had enough of both sides acting like children (ironic in today's political climate) and strong armed them into an agreement….

Lol why they can do this but DO NOT RAISE GME FUNDING is beyond me….but a discussion for another day haha

The whole point overall is moot….the merger will happen…one way or another, since the feds control the purse strings. (and before someone tells me i don't know what i'm talking about…i have multiple family members and family friends very high up in HHS…so yes i got this information from the source….)

Fact is…ACGME didn't need to give us 28% of the governing board, nor anything else. I agree that there should be some protections in place in order to make sure COMPETENT PDs keep their jobs . While ACGME does have some stupid rules and standards, many of their requirements are for the better. On the AOA side residencies might as well be a free for all. Even if we lose 20% of the AOA residencies (which in some analyst circles is conservative…many think it will be closer to 30-35%) Then the ones left over we will be fairly sure are now solid.

And on a final note, even if we lose 20-30% residencies in the transition….keep in mind this won't happen over night. This will take place over 5 years from 2015/16 to 2020. HHS is acutely aware of this, and will help to fund new residency programs in order to compensate (since they will be getting the money back from the other residencies closing). The overall net result at the end of the transition will be roughly the same amount as before…… People over-react without knowing the whole story….

People do know this same post has basically been copied and pasted into multiple posts by multiple different people now. Which is fine because it is a good post, but we are belaboring this into the ground now. Look the ACGME and AOA aren't stupid *****s, they aren't going to come out and say they are merging unless it they were pretty sure it will happen. Is it possible that the minority of cronies who don't want this, cause it to plunge? sure. But it's unlikely. I'm sure both sides did their research beforehand, and as for the government getting involved, I would like to see some proof of that other than this same post that has been copied and pasted multiple times.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Kaputt]

Because now both MD and DO will own the residencies. Being AOA or Sigma Sigma Phi is about your grades. A degree at worst says you didn't do as well in undergrad or weren't lucky enough to live in a place like New Mexico where the bottom 10% MCAT is like a 22.

I get that you don't have a problem being discriminated. I do and am not alone in that. I also don't care what business or law does, and no matter what they do, it doesn't follow that medicine should too. Also please implying things I haven't said.

It's not discrimination, because you had control over the factors they're judging you on. Some programs simply aren't going to look at a DO's, a Caribbean grad's, or any other IMG/FMG's application. It takes time and money to process applications, so MGH internal medicine isn't going to waste time looking at a section of applications that they simply aren't going to interview. Would you rather they look at EVERY SINGLE application? They make automatic cuts because those people who get cut don't have a chance of getting in. Competitive places can do this and not be unfilled.

How is this any different than the med school admissions process? Did that process discriminate against me because I got waitlisted or rejected at several top-tier MD schools because I chose to go to a no-name undergrad? My MCAT at the time was the average for acceptees to Harvard but I got the axe at every "top 15" school I applied to. I don't think I was subject to discrimination. I get that institutions love nabbing up students from name-brand universities. Those students aren't getting in just because of their pedigree...they're also fantastic applicants.

Also, Alpha Omega Alpha isn't entirely based on grades. Only students in the top quartile of a graduating class can be nominated and only a maximum of 1/6 of a graduating class can be elected, but after that, it's entirely up to the school to decide how to give it out. It often emphasizes leadership, service, and other "non-tangibles" in the selection process.

Have you even matriculated yet? Because you're talking like you know everything about the process and your ignorance is leaking through.

Also, don't you think the DO programs involved in the merger will still preferentially take DO students, at least initially?

 

[Petypet]

Look the ACGME and AOA aren't stupid *****s, they aren't going to come out and say they are merging unless it they were pretty sure it will happen.

Do you read the crap they spam our emails with? I am not sure who elected the AOA officials but I wouldn't put them on my list of top 1000 smartest people.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Do you read the crap they spam our emails with? I am not sure who elected the AOA officials but I wouldn't put them on my list of top 1000 smartest people.

hahahah I had to laugh at that one, very true.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

It's not discrimination, because you had control over the factors they're judging you on. Some programs simply aren't going to look at a DO's, a Caribbean grad's, or any other IMG/FMG's application. It takes time and money to process applications, so MGH internal medicine isn't going to waste time looking at a section of applications that they simply aren't going to interview. Would you rather they look at EVERY SINGLE application? They make automatic cuts because those people who get cut don't have a chance of getting in. Competitive places can do this and not be unfilled.

How is this any different than the med school admissions process? Did that process discriminate against me because I got waitlisted or rejected at several top-tier MD schools because I chose to go to a no-name undergrad? My MCAT at the time was the average for acceptees to Harvard but I got the axe at every "top 15" school I applied to. I don't think I was subject to discrimination. I get that institutions love nabbing up students from name-brand universities. Those students aren't getting in just because of their pedigree...they're also fantastic applicants.

Also, Alpha Omega Alpha isn't entirely based on grades. Only students in the top quartile of a graduating class can be nominated and only a maximum of 1/6 of a graduating class can be elected, but after that, it's entirely up to the school to decide how to give it out. It often emphasizes leadership, service, and other "non-tangibles" in the selection process.

Have you even matriculated yet? Because you're talking like you know everything about the process and your ignorance is leaking through.

Also, don't you think the DO programs involved in the merger will still preferentially take DO students, at least initially?

You keep making arguments to things I haven't said. I've made myself clear on all points. You can stop being lazy and read the thread if you're interested, but I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore. Literally every point I have already answered.

 

[Kaputt]

You keep making arguments to things I haven't said. I've made myself clear on all points. You can stop being lazy and read the thread if you're interested, but I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore. Literally every point I have already answered.

Whatever, dude. Nowhere do you even mention what I just brought up as a parallel -- med school admissions. And nowhere did you correct your ignorance on what Alpha Omega Alpha is. So you're kinda just making up a bunch of BS right now.

This is your problem: you think residency directors are judging you based on your degree, which I disagree with. I say they're judging you based on your pedigree -- and they judge everybody on it. It just so happens that the pedigree of anybody that goes to a DO school is lower than those who go to any US MD schools. Any program has the right to pick any student without discriminating. I disagree that putting pedigree into the equation is discrimination. I brought up med school admissions because I didn't think putting pedigree into the equation then was discrimination either. Do you disagree there?

 

[ChrisGriffen]

You keep making arguments to things I haven't said. I've made myself clear on all points. You can stop being lazy and read the thread if you're interested, but I'm not going to waste my time with you anymore. Literally every point I have already answered.

This is the post of an oblivious pre-med.

 

[MrWonderful]

You guys worry too much. Do Well enjoy school and get a residency. Even if It's not Harvard you won't be held back from anything if you want it badly enough. Debating senseless bull**** only perpetuates the propaganda that shouldn't exist to begin with. We are here for patients, not prestige.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

You guys worry too much. Do Well enjoy school and get a residency. Even if It's not Harvard you won't be held back from anything if you want it badly enough. Debating senseless bullcrap only perpetuates the propaganda that shouldn't exist to begin with. We are here for patients, not prestige.

Actually there are many who would prefer prestige more than patients. Pre-meds are one of the most ego-dependent populations out there.

 

[docnotsopc]

DO students against the merger? *****s

Oh wait, the only people against the merger are pre-meds, old timer DOs who live in la-la land with their OMM, or obnoxious DO students who literally chug the koolaid thinking OMM( and DOs in general) are some gift on gods green earth

This merger is NOTHING but good

 

[MUSCULOSKELETAL23]

I have perused this saveOGME website. It was funny to note that the CEOs of LECOM(will not say their family name loud in this forum) have been proactive to "Save OGME". well I guess The CEOs of LECOM must be afraid to lose their legacy after the merger(Remember how gevitz assume LCME will take over COCA and do blah blah blah?)

 

[Xenoblade]

DO students against the merger? *****s

Oh wait, the only people against the merger are pre-meds, old timer DOs who live in la-la land with their OMM, or obnoxious DO students who literally chug the koolaid thinking OMM( and DOs in general) are some gift on gods green earth

This merger is NOTHING but good

Not if you are a do student who wants to do ortho, plastics, or derm. Those protected spots will either be closed down or become open season for MD's.

Quick lesson for you. NOTHING in life is 100% good or 100% bad

 

[Petypet]

Not if you are a do student who wants to do ortho, plastics, or derm. Those protected spots will either be closed down or become open season for MD's.

Quick lesson for you. NOTHING in life is 100% good or 100% bad

You mean the 10 DO students that enter derm or plastic every year. Thats hardly something to get upset over. And DOs are now starting to penetrate AGCME ortho already, so its only fair that MDs get a shot at DO residencies. Its not like traditional DO programs are going to take 100% MDs overnight, if MDs even apply at all. There will still be some reverse discrimination for years to come.

 

[DrEnderW]

Not if you are a do student who wants to do ortho, plastics, or derm. Those protected spots will either be closed down or become open season for MD's.

From my conversations, it is those students that are the most excited and actually have the most to gain.

DO ortho, for example, is insanely competitive as well and is amplified by the fact that there aren't that many spots (and not that many spots in the best locations). The majority of students taking these places have very competitive USMLE scores and approach COMLEX and the USMLE the same way. The MD students who would be applying to AOA ortho residencies would be looking at community hospitals, programs with minimal research emphasis, and an OMM requirement. This doesn't even consider the fact that merging accreditation has yet to mention anything about a combined match to date. These would be bottom of the barrel MD applicants applying to DO ran programs who have been taking DOs for years. The top DO students with high USMLE scores and competitive CVs would not have to gamble skipping the AOA match for the ACGME (when one match eventually happens) and could apply to and rank ACGME programs. The influx of a higher number of apps and the fact that it would be the most competitive applicants applying, makes it likely that an increased number of DOs would match at at least lower tier ACGME programs.

Furthermore, currently AOA surg subspecialty programs essentially require an away rotation to be competitive. These new MD applicants couldn't shotgun apply to AOA programs, they would have to take the time to rotate there first. If the DO PDs think that those students are truly better than their top DO students, then sure, they deserve to match. I haven't heard from any competitive DO students that are worried about this.

You're absolutely right, however, if a ton of these programs close down. That would be less spots for already limited specialties.

AOA derm needs to be completely reevaluated from what I understand anyways. It sounds like many of those programs should close.

 

[SurgeDO]

Not if you are a do student who wants to do ortho, plastics, or derm. Those protected spots will either be closed down or become open season for MD's.

Quick lesson for you. NOTHING in life is 100% good or 100% bad

i will be extremely surprised if a single residency spot in the specialties you mentioned goes to an MD. here is why:

as it stands right now, DO ortho, derm, and plastics (the PCOM pseudo-integrated program) are extremely, extremely competitive amongst DO students. for comparisons sake, landing an ortho position at Doctors as a DO is similar to landing an ortho spot at MGH as an MD. the CV of a DO who lands one of these ortho spots is extremely competitive.

non-competitive MD students who realize that they do not have a chance at landing an ACGME ortho position will make up the majority--if not all--of the MD applications to these AOA residencies. why would a 260+ MD bother applying to any of these AOA residencies? i would be willing to bet these sub-230 MD applicants would not be in the same ballpark of competitiveness of these monster DOs who have been dreaming of arthroplasties since day 1 of medical school.

some other things to consider:

-previously AOA residencies turned ACGME residencies will undoubtedly come with a stigma in the MD world. only the MDs with a flexible ego and non-competitive scores will be applying to them.
-DO PDs are foaming at the mouth to dish out some old school discrimination that they had to deal with back in the day. fair? no. understandable? maybe.
-audition rotations. the MD world does not understand how valuable the audition rotation is in the DO world. how many MDs will be willing to spend their entire 4th year rotating through DO programs?
-there may be an OMM requirement MD students must meet before applying to DO residencies.

i am as scared of MD applicants gobbling up all (any) of the competitive AOA residencies as MDs are scared of DOs taking control of MGH. it just ain't gonna happen.

 

[SurgeDO]

From my conversations, it is those students that are the most excited and actually have the most to gain.

DO ortho, for example, is insanely competitive as well and is amplified by the fact that there aren't that many spots (and not that many spots in the best locations). The majority of students taking these places have very competitive USMLE scores and approach COMLEX and the USMLE the same way. The MD students who would be applying to AOA ortho residencies would be looking at community hospitals, programs with minimal research emphasis, and an OMM requirement. This doesn't even consider the fact that merging accreditation has yet to mention anything about a combined match to date. These would be bottom of the barrel MD applicants applying to DO ran programs who have been taking DOs for years. The top DO students with high USMLE scores and competitive CVs would not have to gamble skipping the AOA match for the ACGME (when one match eventually happens) and could apply to and rank ACGME programs. The influx of a higher number of apps and the fact that it would be the most competitive applicants applying, makes it likely that an increased number of DOs would match at at least lower tier ACGME programs.

Furthermore, currently AOA surg subspecialty programs essentially require an away rotation to be competitive. These new MD applicants couldn't shotgun apply to AOA programs, they would have to take the time to rotate there first. If the DO PDs think that those students are truly better than their top DO students, then sure, they deserve to match. I haven't heard from any competitive DO students that are worried about this.

You're absolutely right, however, if a ton of these programs close down. That would be less spots for already limited specialties.

AOA derm needs to be completely reevaluated from what I understand anyways. It sounds like many of those programs should close.

wrote my above response before reading this. well said.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I agree with DrEnderW and SurgeDO.

These competitive AOA residencies will be very hard to get for your average MD applicant. These spots have historically been going to the cream of the crop DO students, the ones who would have, arguably, been able to match ACGME positions had they risked skipping the NMS match and went all in for the NRMP match. Also, let's face it, competitive MD's won't bother applying to them anyways. Why should they care for the 100 Ortho, 16 Neurosurg, 20 ENT, and 20 Uro AOA when they have nor restriction from shooting for the 700, 200, 300, 250 ACGME spots, respectively?

 

[Tommyguns89]

Not if you are a do student who wants to do ortho, plastics, or derm. Those protected spots will either be closed down or become open season for MD's.

Quick lesson for you. NOTHING in life is 100% good or 100% bad

I admittedly have no idea what I am talking about(hence the question) but if MD directors still show a preference for MD candidates, why would DO directors not at least keep a preference for DO candidates? I feel like there would be this attitude of "we'll consider your guys when you consider ours". Again I am not basing that off of anything other than my understanding of human nature.

 

[rjgennarelli]

-DO PDs are foaming at the mouth to dish out some old school discrimination that they had to deal with back in the day. fair? no. understandable? maybe.

This made me lol

 

[Siggy]

People use the word "discriminate" like being a DO is a race or gender.

I have dose of reality for you.

PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO JUDGE YOU FOR BEING A DO. It isnt illegal and it isnt immoral.

Not entirely true. Health care facilities and insurances in California are prohibited from discriminating against DOs by Business and Professions code 2453. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=bpc&group=02001-03000&file=2450-2459.7

 

[NurWollen]

So, going back to the original purpose of this thread, it looks like Dr. John Ferretti of LECOM is leading the charge against GME unification. He's the author of a lot of the posts on the saveogme.com site. They have a list of organizations that have signed on in opposition to the merger. Not surprisingly, they consist mostly of various osteopathic specialty colleges and a handful state-level osteopathic medical societies. They claim that they are trying to gain support prior to a AOA House of Delegates have a vote next month. Anyone think they have a chance?

Edit: The website also mentions that some of the specialty colleges are preparing to file lawsuits against the AOA. This could really be dragged out for a long time.

 

[Xenoblade]

And DOs are now starting to penetrate AGCME ortho already, so its only fair that MDs get a shot at DO residencies. .

http://www.siumed.edu/oec/Year4/References/NRMP PDSurvey 2012.pdf

on page 105, 70% (or a super majority) of acgme ortho programs do not interview and rank do applicants. And only 6 do's got an ortho acgme spot in 2013. So the evidence points directly against what you have claimed.

As for those 20 optho and 10 plastic/derm spots, I don't think it is fair to shaft the minority for the greater good. that is just a personal philosophical thing.

"landing an ortho position at Doctors as a DO is similar to landing an ortho spot at MGH as an MD."

I have no idea, but this doesn't sound right. Got no proof here, but this just don't pass the sniff test.

And it is ortho. Some MD's will jump through any hoops to get that ortho spot, even if it means wasting time on omm.

auditions for ortho have always been important, regardless of md/do. For md's, 70% of mds land an ortho residency at a place where they rotated or at their home school. So, this is not unique to do's.

 

[GlowInTheDark]

So, going back to the original purpose of this thread, it looks like Dr. John Ferretti of LECOM is leading the charge against GME unification. He's the author of a lot of the posts on the saveogme.com site. They have a list of organizations that have signed on in opposition to the merger. Not surprisingly, they consist mostly of various osteopathic specialty colleges and a handful state-level osteopathic medical societies. They claim that they are trying to gain support prior to a AOA House of Delegates have a vote next month. Anyone think they have a chance?

Edit: The website also mentions that some of the specialty colleges are preparing to file lawsuits against the AOA. This could really be dragged out for a long time.

I wonder if student organizations can come out publicly in favor of the merger. It'd be a pity to see them steam-rolled by administrators.

The Save OGME twitter account is going on about organizing a class action lawsuit. There is also a petition circulating and they have a rather forced slogan of OSTEO1st.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/save-osteopathic-graduate-medical-education

IMO, "somebody" hired a mediocre PR firm to run the Save OGME. It's a heavily scare-tactic driven campaign and it's honestly driven me to further resolve my support of the merger.

 

[GUH]

I wonder if student organizations can come out publicly in favor of the merger. It'd be a pity to see them steam-rolled by administrators.

The Save OGME twitter account is going on about organizing a class action lawsuit. There is also a petition circulating and they have a rather forced slogan of OSTEO1st.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/save-osteopathic-graduate-medical-education

IMO, "somebody" hired a mediocre PR firm to run the Save OGME. It's a heavily scare-tactic driven campaign and it's honestly driven me to further resolve my support of the merger.

SOMA has come out in favor of the merger (over a chunk of its membership's objections).
And while some of the "save ogme" talk may be based on fear, a lot of the pro-merger rhetoric is based on speculation. But that's been discussed in other threads.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

SOMA has come out in favor of the merger (over a chunk of its membership's objections).
And while some of the "save ogme" talk may be based on fear, a lot of the pro-merger rhetoric is based on speculation. But that's been discussed in other threads.

Subsequently a lot of the anti-merger rhetoric is based on speculation and fear. So lets not play that card because you're using baseless comments derived from essentially opinion and an old businessman with a history degree. So by all means, if you're going to represent pro views as baseless, admit that you yourself are in the baseless camp as well.

Regardless, the merger will happen. Our camps will grow closer. Res 42 will go away. A whole bunch of paper work will go away. And hopefully if we're lucky COMLEX will become an OMM exam and DO schools will teach for the USMLE.

 

[GlowInTheDark]

SOMA has come out in favor of the merger (over a chunk of its membership's objections).
And while some of the "save ogme" talk may be based on fear, a lot of the pro-merger rhetoric is based on speculation. But that's been discussed in other threads.

That would put the anti-merger argument as speculation based on speculation, therefore, pro-merger wins for being the least speculative.



As an aside, after starting med school the word "speculation" brings visualizations that I do not like.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Subsequently a lot of the anti-merger rhetoric is based on speculation and fear. So lets not play that card because you're using baseless comments derived from essentially opinion and an old businessman with a history degree. So by all means, if you're going to represent pro views as baseless, admit that you yourself are in the baseless camp as well.

Regardless, the merger will happen. Our camps will grow closer. Res 42 will go away. A whole bunch of paper work will go away. And hopefully if we're lucky COMLEX will become an OMM exam and DO schools will teach for the USMLE.

Bashing someone's speculation, followed promptly by a speculative prediction...all in the same post.

 

[NurWollen]

I heart speculation.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

Also...I cant find this post right now, but whoever cited that law above-

that is exacty what I claimed to not exist .... well played, sir. I was very wrong.

 

[Xenoblade]

Bashing someone's speculation, followed promptly by a speculative prediction...all in the same post.

+1000

On a related note, do you do students who are actually aware of osteopathic medicine (not just accepted medical students) actually think that the divide is beneficial? Or is it mostly a hindrance?

From what I have seen, the divide doesn't really affect md's in my area.

 

[studocplsignore]

As long as my chances for residency are not affected, and my ability to practice as a physician and be compensated is not affected, I could really care less.

 

[Xenoblade]

As long as my chances for residency are not affected, and my ability to practice as a physician and be compensated is not affected, I could really care less.

What specialty are you interested in?

 

[studocplsignore]

What specialty are you interested in?

EM. Interested in psychiatry mainly because I find the actual field interesting.

 

[Xenoblade]

EM. Interested in psychiatry mainly because I find the actual field interesting.

Then you are good with do or md. I want ortho, so md is a much safer path. plus it was cheaper to md for me.

 

[AnonymousD.O.]

Subsequently a lot of the anti-merger rhetoric is based on speculation and fear. So lets not play that card because you're using baseless comments derived from essentially opinion and an old businessman with a history degree. So by all means, if you're going to represent pro views as baseless, admit that you yourself are in the baseless camp as well.

Regardless, the merger will happen. Our camps will grow closer. Res 42 will go away. A whole bunch of paper work will go away. And hopefully if we're lucky COMLEX will become an OMM exam and DO schools will teach for the USMLE.

"Res 42 will go away" - I sure hope so. At least in regards to Pennsylvania, I don't see it happening. I'm a resident of PA, and to get anybody in that state do do anything at all is like pulling teeth. PA has to change that rule, not the AOA, and unfortunately I don't see that happening, because nothing changes in PA, ever. Anybody from PA knows where I'm coming from

 

[GUH]

EM. Interested in psychiatry mainly because I find the actual field interesting.

Why is it that I always heard nobody wanted to do psych but during my OMS-1 year suddenly everyone wants to do it? I'm afraid that my secret desired specialty hiding place is going to be outed!

 

[OCDEMS]

+1000

On a related note, do you do students who are actually aware of osteopathic medicine (not just accepted medical students) actually think that the divide is beneficial? Or is it mostly a hindrance?

From what I have seen, the divide doesn't really affect md's in my area.

Being a DO is an advantage in Family Medicine. In fact, if you were a student who 100% knew they wanted to do family medicine, I think you'd be foolish to not seriously consider it. It is no secret that OMT = $$$ in the hands of the right practitioner. I've had several practicing DOs who say that once you learn how to work manipulation into your practice efficiently, that it is an excellent adjunct to a variety of complaints and makes patients happy. Based on what I've seen and heard in class, it seems like OMT is particularly good with patients who have otherwise been unsatisfied by other medical interventions. Patients with chronic low back pain or other musculoskeletal problems really flock to their DOs for their care. I'd imagine that not only does it create a predictable source of billings, but that it probably fosters good patient-physician relationships given the regularity that patients seek out the care. I know there are some DOs who make a good living with cash-only practices. In fact, I've been surprised to see that not all family practitioners have to live a spartan lifestyle. DO family medicine practices have really created a nice niche by offering all of the services of a regular PCP visit, but also being able to address people's mild musculoskeletal complaints. The clientele that want this are ok paying for it, as do most all insurance plans and Medicare, so it's good business. The other speciality where it seems to come in handy is PM&R and anyone who subspecializes in sports medicine, regardless of the pathway.

I have yet to see the big difference in the other specialities.

 

[NurWollen]

Why is it that I always heard nobody wanted to do psych but during my OMS-1 year suddenly everyone wants to do it? I'm afraid that my secret desired specialty hiding place is going to be outed!

I've noticed the same thing. Seems psych might be on the upswing as a specialty. I wouldn't worry though, I can't imagine it becoming so competitive so as to be a hard match in just a couple years. I think you'll be fine.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Why is it that I always heard nobody wanted to do psych but during my OMS-1 year suddenly everyone wants to do it? I'm afraid that my secret desired specialty hiding place is going to be outed!

It's a popular specialty that everyone will stop liking by 3rd or 4th year thankfully.

 

[TopTomato]

It's a popular specialty that everyone will stop liking by 3rd or 4th year thankfully.

I'm not so sure, usually the people who want to do psych have a genuine interest or passion for the field. After working in emergency medicine for a few years, there's no way in hell I could do psych. I couldn't care if psych paid me a million dollars a year I still wouldn't do it.

 

[MRSAful Fate]

I loved my psych rotation. It happened to be in a state institution for the criminally insane. I played with the idea of pursuing psych after that but realized that the other 99% of psych outside of what I experienced on that rotation would make me absolutely miserable if I had to deal with it on a daily basis.

 

[DocEspana]

Not if you are a do student who wants to do ortho, plastics, or derm. Those protected spots will either be closed down or become open season for MD's.

Quick lesson for you. NOTHING in life is 100% good or 100% bad

Lesson for you. I do not know about derm. But the bottom 10 AOA residents in ortho, urology, plastics, etc (highly competitive surgical fields) will be stronger candidates than the bottom 10 MDs in those same fields who got a position.

Why is that relevant?. Because if you open up the AOA spots, you don't have *better* candidates in the MD-and-looking pool. Does that mean there will be zero movement? No. Just non-significant changes. Especially immediately.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Lesson for you. I do not know about derm. But the bottom 10 AOA residents in ortho, urology, plastics, etc (highly competitive surgical fields) will be stronger candidates than the bottom 10 MDs in those same fields who got a position.

Why is that relevant?. Because if you open up the AOA spots, you don't have *better* candidates in the MD-and-looking pool. Does that mean there will be zero movement? No. Just non-significant changes. Especially immediately.

Can you elaborate the idea that bottom DO ortho, plastics guys are better candidates than their MD counterparts? I'm not sure I understand why.

 

[Makati2008]

Lesson for you. I do not know about derm. But the bottom 10 AOA residents in ortho, urology, plastics, etc (highly competitive surgical fields) will be stronger candidates than the bottom 10 MDs in those same fields who got a position.

Why is that relevant?. Because if you open up the AOA spots, you don't have *better* candidates in the MD-and-looking pool. Does that mean there will be zero movement? No. Just non-significant changes. Especially immediately.

I don't know about any of those except Ortho and I can tell you I know of one Ortho match that wouldn't have made the cut in any MD program number or research wise.

 

[Xenoblade]

I don't know about any of those except Ortho and I can tell you I know of one Ortho match that wouldn't have made the cut in any MD program number or research wise.

Agreed. From what i have heard, it is generally regarded that it is easier for a do to match aoa ortho than a md to match acgme ortho.

Had the merger not happened, I would have gladly taken my do acceptance because of those protected do ortho spots.

 

[DocEspana]

Agreed. From what i have heard, it is generally regarded that it is easier for a do to match aoa ortho than a md to match acgme ortho.

Had the merger not happened, I would have gladly taken my do acceptance because of those protected do ortho spots.

"Generally regarded" is wrong. It's harder for the DO to match into the AOA (not that the programs are better. But difficulty is a complex metric) despite those drinking the optimism kool aid here.

 

[GUH]

Lesson for you. I do not know about derm. But the bottom 10 AOA residents in ortho, urology, plastics, etc (highly competitive surgical fields) will be stronger candidates than the bottom 10 MDs in those same fields who got a position.

Why is that relevant?. Because if you open up the AOA spots, you don't have *better* candidates in the MD-and-looking pool. Does that mean there will be zero movement? No. Just non-significant changes. Especially immediately.

Interesting - this is a point I haven't heard before.

 

[DocEspana]

I don't know about any of those except Ortho and I can tell you I know of one Ortho match that wouldn't have made the cut in any MD program number or research wise.

Its why I say bottom 10. It equalizes out the few completely unqualified or nepotism spots that you'd find in any field on either accredited side.

But this holds true 100% for urology, ENT, and ophtho in the AOA world. I have to assume a bit for ortho since the large number of ortho spots (comparatively) means I don't know if e xeptions exist. But it holds true for the big name surgical fields. The worst DOs getting into a residency there are better than the worst MDs getting ACGME residency. Better in an absolutely objective sense. Boards, GPA, research, extracurriculars. Obviously name brand quality of the med school goes to the MD Every time.

What we are all tempted to do is say "but what about the best DO candidates?" But that's irrelevant. Theyre not as good as their MD counterparts, but it's not a relevant point. Same as the best MD candidates, they don't matter in reality. They have spots. Spots they won't lose. What we want to know is if everything opened right now to everyone would DOs be displaced? They would if the weakest DO could be replaced by a stronger, UNMATCHED, md candidate. stats collected by the AUA and AAO applicants are very unambiguous. The worst few DO candidate who gets in is stronger on paper (except degree) than the worst few matched MDs. And definitely stronger than the first few best unmatched MDs.

I only know the trend applies to ENT because of significant family ties to multiple programs in that field. They've backed up that DO applicants who they end up not taking because they go AOA are much better than some of the residents they end up with (not that they *would* have taken the DO due to degree preference, but our entire premise is "if everything opens up tomorrow")

 

[DocEspana]

Interesting - this is a point I haven't heard before.

Been saying it for months. It's a phenomenon well documented in urology and ophtho circles because the very small applicant pools (both degrees) allow for every applicants data to be de-identified and then charted, more or less, for science.

 

[DrEnderW]

Agreed. From what i have heard, it is generally regarded that it is easier for a do to match aoa ortho than a md to match acgme ortho.

Had the merger not happened, I would have gladly taken my do acceptance because of those protected do ortho spots.

I'm not so sure about that. There are far more applicants per AOA spot compared to ACGME. The match rates for all DO surg sub specialties are much lower with more applicants per seat. Also, the programs are a lot smaller - some with 2 residents/year.

You could do 3 away rotations and be aiming for something like 6-10 spots. The locations are so few and far between that if you're aiming for something like greater NY/tristate area/east coast, New England area there are 8 spots... The numbers just make it hyper competitive.

If you're considering school prestige/rank/degree the MD applicant will have a leg up. Arguing against that would be ridiculous. But comparing DO going AOA to MD going ACGME, I wouldn't necessarily say AOA is easier (although not saying it's necessarily harder either). The average pubs for ACGME ortho in 2011 was something like 4.3 versus 3.5 for AOA ortho (this is off cuff I haven't looked recently). I think people underestimate how competitive the top of AOA programs are.