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Makati2008 said:
Not attacking my profession. We just need less Omm (mainly cranial) and more science/EBM.
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I think the issue is that you jumped to cranial (yeah...), when Guh was just talking about proper palpation skill. I can say that it took me a semester just to get halfway confident in my ability to palpate (and actually feel) anything in OPP.

But that said, a med school grad could probably knock it out in a summer, especially considering rotation/intern and resident hours.
 
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How do you undermine the credibility of an entire field that isn't well researched? Sounds like the AOA and DOs have done most of the undermining by not studying it objectively:
 
Makati2008 said:
Not attacking my profession. We just need less Omm (mainly cranial) and more science/EBM.
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Agreed.

We need evidence based medicine, not faith based evidence.

To me, these people are worst than doctors who believe in creationism or NP/PA trying to run the show on their own.

I am all for integrating new treatments that help patients, but they have to actually help the patients in some capacity.
 
GUH said:
Techniques, maybe. Palpatory skills sufficient for competency, absolutely not.
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With the inter-rater reliability of the osteopathic exam being what it is (non-existant), an MD's ability to randomly state "rotated left side bent right" or "decreased cranial motion" will put them on par with anyone else.

Fun experiment: Get 5 confident DO students and ask them to all blindly diagnose the same person's spine.
 
@GUH, can I please know who you are on WesternU via PM so that I never make the mistake of talking to you? I can only shake my head when someone can't admit that ADHD treatment with OMM is delusion.
 
AlbinoHawk DO said:
@GUH, can I please know who you are on WesternU via PM so that I never make the mistake of talking to you? I can only shake my head when someone can't admit that ADHD treatment with OMM is delusion.
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I never said ADHD can be successfully treated with OMM alone.

It is clear that many here would rather resort to ad hominem than to actually discuss the thread topic. If you want to make another thread on why you think OMM is completely bogus and palpatory skills are worthless then go ahead and do it. I'm not going to bother arguing with personal attacks like the one in the post above. +1 for the ignore list.
 
GUH said:
I never said ADHD can be successfully treated with OMM alone.

It is clear that many here would rather resort to ad hominem than to actually discuss the thread topic. If you want to make another thread on why you think OMM is completely bogus and palpatory skills are worthless then go ahead and do it. I'm not going to bother arguing with personal attacks like the one in the post above.
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Maybe I missed the post, but if you indeed said ADHD can be treated using OMM as a supplement, can you please elaborate on how you would go about this?
 
GUH said:
I never said ADHD can be successfully treated with OMM alone.

It is clear that many here would rather resort to ad hominem than to actually discuss the thread topic. If you want to make another thread on why you think OMM is completely bogus and palpatory skills are worthless then go ahead and do it. I'm not going to bother arguing with personal attacks like the one in the post above. +1 for the ignore list.
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Sounds like lawyer double talk when you add the last word.

I'm sincerely not trying to attack you. I just want to never make the mistake of talking to you IRL. Ignore button doesn't get that far.
 
hallowmann said:
I think the issue is that you jumped to cranial (yeah...), when Guh was just talking about proper palpation skill. I can say that it took me a semester just to get halfway confident in my ability to palpate (and actually feel) anything in OPP.

But that said, a med school grad could probably knock it out in a summer, especially considering rotation/intern and resident hours.
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This is an example of a very reasonable view and reflects an attitude that is more likely to move our profession towards more evidence-based practice.
 
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GUH, you still haven't answered clearly. Do you or do you not believe that OMM has a role in ADHD? And if you do, what role is that?
 
Dr. Zombie said:
That's what I figured lol. You did good in not entertaining that silly argument even though I'm not a strong supporter of OMM.
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Not a silly argument that came right from the mouth of some respected faculty in the field of cranial.

Or how about a teacher feeling the motion of the cranium through the hands of the person that's palpating? Or feeling the renal artery with blind palpation? Why not do some type of studies to back all these claims up and if they disprove my doubt I will be the first one to admit I am wrong.

It's frustrating to have our intelligence questioned due to some lacking areas in our curriculum (EM PD) or having to hear a PD say I'm glad your not one of those quackery believing DOs(that occurred at an acgme fm program).

So again let me say I am NOT attacking my profession I just want it become stronger by culling the areas that are not backed up by science.
 
Makati2008 said:
Not a silly argument that came right from the mouth of some respected faculty in the field of cranial.

Or how about a teacher feeling the motion of the cranium through the hands of the person that's palpating? Or feeling the renal artery with blind palpation? Why not do some type of studies to back all these claims up and if they disprove my doubt I will be the first one to admit I am wrong.

It's frustrating to have our intelligence questioned due to some lacking areas in our curriculum (EM PD) or having to hear a PD say I'm glad your not one of those quackery believing DOs(that occurred at an acgme fm program).

So again let me say I am NOT attacking my profession I just want it become stronger by culling the areas that are not backed up by science.
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You make a sensible and reasonable argument. But you needed be specific on who made the claim that OMM can assist ADHD.

If GUH never made that claim, he shouldn't be held responsible to defend that stance about ADHD.
 
Dr. Zombie said:
You make a sensible and reasonable argument. But you needed be specific on who made the claim that OMM can assist ADHD.

If GUH never made that claim, he shouldn't be held responsible to defend that stance about ADHD.
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Doesn't matter if he didn't make the claim. I'm asking him right now if he holds that belief.
 
Dr. Zombie said:
You make a sensible and reasonable argument. But you needed be specific on who made the claim that OMM can assist ADHD.

If GUH never made that claim, he shouldn't be held responsible to defend that stance about ADHD.
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I only quote faculty since they are teaching us Omm. Residents or Students I wouldn't quote although I know one guy(resident) big in the cranial academy that makes me smh.

If it seems like I was saying GUH was saying the comments about ADHD then let me just say it wasn't him.
 
Bludgeoning - beating something with a club until it's fixed.

Maybe ADHD can be fixed with a little manual bludgeoning medicine?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I legitimately believe that 100% of OMM can be learned in a weekend. I do agree that the nuance of palpatory skill would take practice, but it would be incredibly easy to fake your way through one competency exam if thats all it took.
 
Makati2008 said:
Not a silly argument that came right from the mouth of some respected faculty in the field of cranial.

Or how about a teacher feeling the motion of the cranium through the hands of the person that's palpating? Or feeling the renal artery with blind palpation? Why not do some type of studies to back all these claims up and if they disprove my doubt I will be the first one to admit I am wrong.

It's frustrating to have our intelligence questioned due to some lacking areas in our curriculum (EM PD) or having to hear a PD say I'm glad your not one of those quackery believing DOs(that occurred at an acgme fm program).

So again let me say I am NOT attacking my profession I just want it become stronger by culling the areas that are not backed up by science.
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agreed. this makes me seriously question the 40ish aoa psychiatry spots.
 
Makati2008 said:
Ok again when someone tells me you can treat ADHD with an Omm technique you lose almost all cred with me. If Omm is so good why don't many of us use it? Where are the studies to back it up?
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J Am Osteopath Assoc May 1, 2014 vol. 114 no. 5 374-381
Effect of Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy in the Attentive Performance of Children With Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder
For Italian children, they found a statistical significance in some areas of improvement using n=28, but unfortunately they didn't utilize sham treatments so the placebo effect could be active in this one in addition to the relatively small sample size.
 
SnowDoggy44 said:
J Am Osteopath Assoc May 1, 2014 vol. 114 no. 5 374-381
Effect of Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy in the Attentive Performance of Children With Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder
For Italian children, they found a statistical significance in some areas of improvement using n=28, but unfortunately they didn't utilize sham treatments so the placebo effect could be active in this one in addition to the relatively small sample size.
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http://www.researchgate.net/journal/0098-6151_The_Journal_of_the_American_Osteopathic_Association

Impact factor 0.
 
SnowDoggy44 said:
The impact factor is used to compare the relative importance of journals within fields of research based on frequency of citations of other articles. What does the impact factor have to do with the findings of a single study?
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That anyone can publish anything in this journal and call it a study. From my knowledge this journal isn't 100% peer reviewed which demonstrates that any study published in here needs to be taken with a grain of salt. This journal goes back to the 1960's and has an impact factor of 0, means that no one trusts a study published here.
 
Petypet said:
That anyone can publish anything in this journal and call it a study. From my knowledge this journal isn't 100% peer reviewed which demonstrates that any study published in here needs to be taken with a grain of salt. This journal goes back to the 1960's and has an impact factor of 0, means that no one trusts a study published here.
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Rofl. My abstracts published in it are still going on my CV though!!! Yeah!
 
Petypet said:
Well of course! lol. But investigators need to publish in better journals and try and advance the field, not contribute to a stack of papers they call a journal
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So true. There is very high quality research in OMM going on out there, but if it gets published in the JAOA, they might as well have thrown it in the trash.
 
This just in! So apparently DO discrimination is a lot like racial discrimation! Look at this residency review I just read on scutwork.com

" Out of the 14 interns, only 3 of them went to American M.D. schools. The rest of them, which is 11, went to D.O., Caribbean, or a traditional black med school (Howard, etc). Not to say that those schools are not equally as great, but let's be honest, most programs are not going to accept that number of non American non MD candidates."

People can be such A--holes.
 
NurWollen said:
This just in! So apparently DO discrimination is a lot like racial discrimation! Look at this residency review I just read on scutwork.com

" Out of the 14 interns, only 3 of them went to American M.D. schools. The rest of them, which is 11, went to D.O., Caribbean, or a traditional black med school (Howard, etc). Not to say that those schools are not equally as great, but let's be honest, most programs are not going to accept that number of non American non MD candidates."

People can be such A--holes.
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:corny: Can you link? :corny:
 
NurWollen said:
This just in! So apparently DO discrimination is a lot like racial discrimation! Look at this residency review I just read on scutwork.com

" Out of the 14 interns, only 3 of them went to American M.D. schools. The rest of them, which is 11, went to D.O., Caribbean, or a traditional black med school (Howard, etc). Not to say that those schools are not equally as great, but let's be honest, most programs are not going to accept that number of non American non MD candidates."

People can be such A--holes.
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What the...? Now don't get me wrong, I expect discrimination against DOs and Carib students, but what the hell is that about traditional black MD schools not being "American MD schools"? Way to completely devalue some quite clearly good schools. I mean he basically grouped all the new and unheard of schools with "American MD" and excluded schools with longer histories and probably better matches. What a piece of work...
 
I wonder if graduates from Florida International University (MD) whose first graduating class was in 2013 or Florida Atlantic University (MD) whose first graduating class was this year C/O 2014, face the same degree of discrimination as DO's from well established and respected school like PCOM, MSU, UMDNJ, KCUMB, etc.
 
^ No.

Absolutely not to the same degree. Your coat and app will have MD. There's instant lack of respect at many academic centers by many physicians for DOs and DO students. Who knows what dinguses on the internet say - their opinion doesn't matter anyways.
 
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It would be interesting to hear what the AOA leadership would say if enough students/residents/recents grads came together in a sizable number and spoke with a common voice to essentially say that in 2014, the DO degree alone, irregardless of metrics such as USMLE scores, is single-handedly holding us back.
 
NeuroSpeed said:
Yup. Some people were ranking VTC higher than VCOM before they even had any students on clinical rotations.

Edit: Nothing against my VTC brethren of course. Just thought it was strange.
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I always wondered why VCOM never pursued a deeper affiliation with VT, while the MD school that later opened was able to use its name.
 
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At this point, it seems the merger is only happening in one direction. Still haven't seen what it will take for MD students to enter the DO match published.
 
Personally wish they'd just call it "Virginia Tech College of Osteopathic Medicine"..... I know it'll probably never happen but a guy can dream right? I figured the reason they didn't fully commit was probably money. So annoying
 
Gatorman177 said:
Personally wish they'd just call it "Virginia Tech College of Osteopathic Medicine"..... I know it'll probably never happen but a guy can dream right? I figured the reason they didn't fully commit was probably money. So annoying
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MSU has that - the DO and MD school. I have wished for the same thing. That kind of affiliation is not only good for students there but just carries weight to the name, which is good for the profession.
 
user3 said:
I always wondered why VCOM never pursued a deeper affiliation with VT, while the MD school that later opened was able to use its name.
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AlbinoHawk DO said:
$$$$$
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Gatorman177 said:
Personally wish they'd just call it "Virginia Tech College of Osteopathic Medicine"..... I know it'll probably never happen but a guy can dream right? I figured the reason they didn't fully commit was probably money. So annoying
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VCOM is a private school with no state funding, so I doubt that even if VCOM wanted to rename, it couldn't without taking on state interest. Also, as I understand it, the vast majority of the money to found the school came from charities and trusts set up by the late Marion Bradley Via, and was overseen by her son, Edward Via.

Carilion split the cost with VT to found their school, and the state budgeted $59 million to help build it. So they got the name.

Edit: Also, for all intensive purposes, VCOM students are treated identical to VT students. The collaboration is very developed, except for the name.
 
NeuroSpeed said:
VCOM is a private school with no state funding, so I doubt that even if VCOM wanted to rename, it couldn't without taking on state interest. Also, as I understand it, the vast majority of the money to found the school came from charities and trusts set up by the late Marion Bradley Via, and was overseen by her son, Edward Via.

Carilion split the cost with VT to found their school, and the state budgeted $59 million to help build it. So they got the name.
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But VTC is also private, correct? It is pretty clear that VCOM is out to make money given their two recent expansions in sc and auburn

Did virginia tech ever reach out to VCOM and attempt to strengthen ties?

Edit: nvm I kind of see what you're saying
 
Gatorman177 said:
But VTC is also private, correct? It is pretty clear that VCOM is out to make money given their two recent expansions in sc and auburn

Did virginia tech ever reach out to VCOM and attempt to strengthen ties?
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No, VTC is a public-private institution. VCOM is also non-profit, and from what I understand, the SC campus was VCOM's idea, and they weren't interested in opening a 3rd campus until Auburn approached VCOM about it.

http://www.vcom.edu/aboutvcom/history.html
 
Gotcha. That kind of clears it up. So the outlook for name change in the future is not so good haha
 
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