Scared about debt

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CoffeeDDS

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Hi all,

I've been trolling SDN for a couple years but feel the need to post on this topic.

First off, I'm scared ****less about my debt. I'm a D3 at a large university in NYC, I'll be one of the graduates with over 400K in debt. I've read a lot of negative posts about debt and people saying it is not worth going to school for. Now I'm not going to say I went into dentistry because of money but I sure didn't do it to take home less than 50k after taxes and loan repayment until I'm 50.

Can any recent grads from expensive dental schools give me some hope?

Also, I know this has been touched on before but does anyone have any suggestions n how to make a passive income in dental school without any money to invest?

Thanks.
Coffee
 
CoffeeDDS said:
Hi all,

I've been trolling SDN for a couple years but feel the need to post on this topic.

First off, I'm scared ****less about my debt. I'm a D3 at a large university in NYC, I'll be one of the graduates with over 400K in debt. I've read a lot of negative posts about debt and people saying it is not worth going to school for. Now I'm not going to say I went into dentistry because of money but I sure didn't do it to take home less than 50k after taxes and loan repayment until I'm 50.

Can any recent grads from expensive dental schools give me some hope?

Also, I know this has been touched on before but does anyone have any suggestions n how to make a passive income in dental school without any money to invest?

Thanks.
Coffee
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Predent mode: ACTIVATED
 
You could teach for a length of 120 payments at 10% of your income and have the rest of your loan forgiven tax free
 
You will be repaying your loans until 50. You shouldn't be taking home $50k after taxes unless you're doing something very wrong. It's good to be worried about your loans, it will keep your head level... on the other hand you shouldn't be worried about them on a daily basis, they're not going away anytime soon and it's basically a second mortgage (meaning it is manageable).
 
You might consider public health repayment options.

I think the biggest thing is to live below your means. Live in a smaller house than needed, drive an older car than needed, don't eat out as much, etc. If you live below your means and practice financial discipline, you will pay your loans of faster and have more money to invest long term.
 
That's a nauseating amount of debt. Look into a debt repayment program...

BUT

Don't forget that you could also move to an area that might be more profitable than a large city and be able to do very well for yourself and pay them off faster than if you did a loan forgiveness program. Often times the "after school" plans aren't great because they cover some of it but pay you poorly to the point where it almost doesn't matter.

Public service may be an option but don't give up on starting your own practice and just working your ass off. Heck, this may be a blessing in disguise if it makes you an insanely profitable dentist much more quickly. You could pound this debt away in 7 or 8 years and be making a ton. Don't give up and start begging for help just yet. Get immersed in the business side ASAP.
 
BoomerSooner10 said:
That's a nauseating amount of debt. Look into a debt repayment program...

BUT

Don't forget that you could also move to an area that might be more profitable than a large city and be able to do very well for yourself and pay them off faster than if you did a loan forgiveness program. Often times the "after school" plans aren't great because they cover some of it but pay you poorly to the point where it almost doesn't matter.

Public service may be an option but don't give up on starting your own practice and just working your ass off. Heck, this may be a blessing in disguise if it makes you an insanely profitable dentist much more quickly. You could pound this debt away in 7 or 8 years and be making a ton. Don't give up and start begging for help just yet. Get immersed in the business side ASAP.
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I do love the city but right now I feel like I'd move anywhere/do anything/work 50+ hr weeks to hopefully start "living like a doctor" earlier in life.

Also, the business side and entrepreneurial aspect of being a small business owner is what really interests me. I look at it like a big puzzle to solve. On this note, how hard do you guys think it would be to start some sort of artisan all-natural tooth paste company while in school and sell it to all the hipster that flood NYC & Brooklyn? What troubles do you think I may run into?
 
CoffeeDDS said:
I do love the city but right now I feel like I'd move anywhere/do anything/work 50+ hr weeks to hopefully start "living like a doctor" earlier in life.

Also, the business side and entrepreneurial aspect of being a small business owner is what really interests me. I look at it like a big puzzle to solve. On this note, how hard do you guys think it would be to start some sort of artisan all-natural tooth paste company while in school and sell it to all the hipster that flood NYC & Brooklyn? What troubles do you think I may run into?
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Hey Coffee,

Are you familiar with Bill Dorfman? http://www.billdorfmandds.com/

He's a famous dental entrepreneur in CA. I'd check out his career history to get a sense of what is possible.
 
CoffeeDDS said:
I do love the city but right now I feel like I'd move anywhere/do anything/work 50+ hr weeks to hopefully start "living like a doctor" earlier in life.

Also, the business side and entrepreneurial aspect of being a small business owner is what really interests me. I look at it like a big puzzle to solve. On this note, how hard do you guys think it would be to start some sort of artisan all-natural tooth paste company while in school and sell it to all the hipster that flood NYC & Brooklyn? What troubles do you think I may run into?
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How will you document that your toothpaste is artisan and all-natural? Are you prepared to pay for chemistry testing to formulate this artisan toothpaste? Or are you planning to make it in your kitchen using ingredients bought at Whole Foods and a recipe from the internet? Both options require significant $$$.

Not a profitable idea. Try again.
 
CoffeeDDS said:
I do love the city but right now I feel like I'd move anywhere/do anything/work 50+ hr weeks to hopefully start "living like a doctor" earlier in life.

Also, the business side and entrepreneurial aspect of being a small business owner is what really interests me. I look at it like a big puzzle to solve. On this note, how hard do you guys think it would be to start some sort of artisan all-natural tooth paste company while in school and sell it to all the hipster that flood NYC & Brooklyn? What troubles do you think I may run into?
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Is fluoride considered natural?

Also, when I started doing research on the prospect of opening up in a "rural" or "semi-rural" area (according to the rural/urban continuum codes the Department of agriculture uses) I had difficulty finding any evidence of these practices reliably having higher returns than those in "suburban" or "urban" areas. If anyone has found something I have yet to discover, I would like to see it. The only thing I could see of statistical significance was the (fairly obvious) observation that it would be a bad idea to set up a practice in an area with a population density below 120 ppl/sqmi (unless the per capita income was above a - projected- $60,000/yr).

I did find a study that made it quite clear that it was useful to be an owner, and experienced. The study suggested these two would add roughly $45K and $11K respectively to your yearly gross income, while living semirural was pegged at an additional $3,400 per year. Being in an isolated rural setting actually resulted in a loss of $24,000 per year.

I don't really doubt that the competition is less extreme, but I am wondering why it is so hard to find non-anecdotal evidence of these practices having higher returns, considering the amount of data we collect on that sort of thing. Anyone have something useful? The databases I have access to are not really set up for this type of research.
 
CoffeeDDS said:
Also, I know this has been touched on before but does anyone have any suggestions n how to make a passive income in dental school without any money to invest
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A passive income without any money to invest? How about renting half of your room to another person? Just go around and ask your NYU dental classmates or schoolmates, who have similar concern about student loans like you, to share a room with you. That’s what I did. When I started my first years, I had 2 classmates who shared the apartment with me. Two years later, I had 4 classmates. Since you are a dental student, you probably spend most of your time at school anyway. An apartment is just a place to sleep
 
charlestweed said:
A passive income without any money to invest? How about renting half of your room to another person? Just go around and ask your NYU dental classmates or schoolmates, who have similar concern about student loans like you, to share a room with you. That’s what I did. When I started my first years, I had 2 classmates who shared the apartment with me. Two years later, I had 4 classmates. Since you are a dental student, you probably spend most of your time at school anyway. An apartment is just a place to sleep
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Well, if you do have a social life and want to have some private space with dating and bringing your GF home, I'd say that could be a problem. Subleasing may generate some income but it comes down to the trade off of personal space vs. some money. I personally valued having some privacy and most apartments aren't that spacious to have 2 roommates, much less 4.
 
I also value privacy...besides that, I wouldn't save that much, I already live modestly.

Has anyone heard of d3s or d4s working part time in dental labs to earn a little extra cash?
 
The reality is you really don't want to work at this time in your life (not me anyway). You want to spend time with your GF in that apartment during your free time. Even if you somehow working a full shift in a lab making $15/hr for two years (60-70k or so) bringing your total debt down to $340k (amazing if you can work full time and go to school/get all your requirements) you would still have monthly payments close to $4000 versus $4500 if you didn't do anything. That amount is only a slight lifestyle change when you are a dentist--eat out a little less, don't buy a BMW, etc etc.You should still have enough to live off--your $50k.

Unfortunately, for a lot of people who go in to dentistry/medicine/etc they do not realize that this is the new norm. Its getting more expensive to attend. It's not as lucrative as it wads even ten years ago. But it is still a great education, top 10% income, stable job and income, fulfilling, charitable options. Better than working at a desk and clawing your way up some corporate ladder, in my opinion.

Ideally, you wouldn't have $400k in debt, but that seems to be the trend for some of the newer/private schools. There are always options though. 10 year programs mentioned above, military, under-served populations. Everyone I talk to usually say that you get ripped off if you go military or whatever. If you don't care about location, there are plenty of places that will pay over $150k and higher. Just fish for the right offer and make sure you have a lawyer go over your contract so you don't get ripped off. Alaska always wants more dentists 😉
 
JamesTKirk said:
The reality is you really don't want to work at this time in your life (not me anyway). You want to spend time with your GF in that apartment during your free time. Even if you somehow working a full shift in a lab making $15/hr for two years (60-70k or so) bringing your total debt down to $340k (amazing if you can work full time and go to school/get all your requirements) you would still have monthly payments close to $4000 versus $4500 if you didn't do anything. That amount is only a slight lifestyle change when you are a dentist--eat out a little less, don't buy a BMW, etc etc.You should still have enough to live off--your $50k.

Unfortunately, for a lot of people who go in to dentistry/medicine/etc they do not realize that this is the new norm. Its getting more expensive to attend. It's not as lucrative as it wads even ten years ago. But it is still a great education, top 10% income, stable job and income, fulfilling, charitable options. Better than working at a desk and clawing your way up some corporate ladder, in my opinion.

Ideally, you wouldn't have $400k in debt, but that seems to be the trend for some of the newer/private schools. There are always options though. 10 year programs mentioned above, military, under-served populations. Everyone I talk to usually say that you get ripped off if you go military or whatever. If you don't care about location, there are plenty of places that will pay over $150k and higher. Just fish for the right offer and make sure you have a lawyer go over your contract so you don't get ripped off. Alaska always wants more dentists 😉
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Interestingly, I heard that alaska's cost of living is very high. Don't know if its just the anchorage/Fairbanks region.
 
Shunwei said:
Interestingly, I heard that alaska's cost of living is very high. Don't know if its just the anchorage/Fairbanks region.
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It was just a joke, but I have heard of ~$200k gp offers up there. Maine I hear is good too. Not sure if there is any truth to it. In the end though, I think it comes down to being in the right place at the right time. You just need to find that dentist ready to retire that isn't going to screw you over. Tougher in this economy.
 
I wonder why people always forget to calculate tax into these 200k+ salaries that they are always quoting.Nobody EVER takes home that.
 
Zagaza said:
I wonder why people always forget to calculate tax into these 200k+ salaries that they are always quoting.Nobody EVER takes home that.
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I don't think people are forgetting to calculate tax. I rather think that its just that generally when reporting the pay for a job, the pre-tax pay is reported instead of the post-tax pay, as the post-tax is more variable and is more individually based.
 
johnho771 said:
I don't think people are forgetting to calculate tax. I rather think that its just that generally when reporting the pay for a job, the pre-tax pay is reported instead of the post-tax pay, as the post-tax is more variable and is more individually based.
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srs. who talks about salaries in terms of post-tax amounts?

It's implicit that taxes will be taken out of any gross salary figure.
 
Zagaza said:
I wonder why people always forget to calculate tax into these 200k+ salaries that they are always quoting.Nobody EVER takes home that.
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Plenty of general dentists take home over $200k after a couple decades in an established career. It's quite achievable, even in this day and age.
 
How rare is it for a dentist to hit 200k their first or second year out of school? Couldn't you opt to work like 55-60 hours and pull in around that much?
 
I've been out of dental school for 10 years now and I give honest answers about income for dentists. Too often dentists won't discuss anything associated with money: fees, income, overhead, loans, etc. What questions does everyone have?
 
Let me know what questions you have. I've been out of dental school for 10 years.
 
It can be done, but difficult. I've been out of dental school 10 years. What questions do you have?
 
DentalRealist said:
It can be done, but difficult. I've been out of dental school 10 years. What questions do you have?
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What would you say the avg salary of a new grad would be?
Would you recommend new grads to pay back the student loans ASAP or continue to save?
 
I am not in the dental world but I think anyone could answer your second question. Always live below your means. I have a saying at least I tell it to myself, if you don't have a passive income greater than what you will buy as gifts, toys, and home repairs don't do it just yet because if you are thinking at any point if you could afford it? the answer probably to yourself will be yea I can pay for it. But, at what cost!
I like the used Maserati for $70k which is affordable, but why `now?
I only have as debt a mortgage,and a car payment, I bought the home a year ago exactly, I still have 3 more years to pay it off completely. It was $250k when I bought it now I have left around $155k to me is debt none the less even at 3.8 % interest. Even though everyone have to pay rent any where they go, even financing at 3.8% and home repairs is a liability.
I would take that debt at $400k and try to pay it off as quick as possible, don't buy a doctor's car, doctor's house and don't take doctor vacations? is hard to do but you will save more than $400k from interest if you pay it within 8 years or so. After that you may want to save 2-4 more years and start your own practice. Even doing this for 10 years you will be better off than 95 % of Americans since most have to live with under $50k a year either way.
CoffeeDDS, if you don't pay it quick I am sure that you will be stuck not to 50 but 65 paying debt because after you get married you keep adding more to the shelves. Lets say you get out start making $200k which in reality is more like $150 or as low as $130k but lets keep it at $150k/ around 12k a month which is good ( I have no idea what percentage rate you have for the loan at 5% means that you will be paying at least $2400-3000 which is by no means a small number) lets say you buy a modest house ( where I live modest is around $250-$300k) that's another $2000 there. What can you afford with the $150k salary? easily a home worth $800k to 1 mill but that road will be a guaranteed 40 year slavery.
 
you seem eager to answer questions, why don't you answer the post and give them your take on debt, did you pay it off ? ( how long it took) or are you still paying it.. etc,,
 
andyO4you said:
I am not in the dental world but I think anyone could answer your second question. Always live below your means. I have a saying at least I tell it to myself, if you don't have a passive income greater than what you will buy as gifts, toys, and home repairs don't do it just yet because if you are thinking at any point if you could afford it? the answer probably to yourself will be yea I can pay for it. But, at what cost!
I like the used Maserati for $70k which is affordable, but why `now?
I only have as debt a mortgage,and a car payment, I bought the home a year ago exactly, I still have 3 more years to pay it off completely. It was $250k when I bought it now I have left around $155k to me is debt none the less even at 3.8 % interest. Even though everyone have to pay rent any where they go, even financing at 3.8% and home repairs is a liability.
I would take that debt at $400k and try to pay it off as quick as possible, don't buy a doctor's car, doctor's house and don't take doctor vacations? is hard to do but you will save more than $400k from interest if you pay it within 8 years or so. After that you may want to save 2-4 more years and start your own practice. Even doing this for 10 years you will be better off than 95 % of Americans since most have to live with under $50k a year either way.
CoffeeDDS, if you don't pay it quick I am sure that you will be stuck not to 50 but 65 paying debt because after you get married you keep adding more to the shelves. Lets say you get out start making $200k which in reality is more like $150 or as low as $130k but lets keep it at $150k/ around 12k a month which is good ( I have no idea what percentage rate you have for the loan at 5% means that you will be paying at least $2400-3000 which is by no means a small number) lets say you buy a modest house ( where I live modest is around $250-$300k) that's another $2000 there. What can you afford with the $150k salary? easily a home worth $800k to 1 mill but that road will be a guaranteed 40 year slavery.
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Thanks for the response. Wouldn't I be able to work like 60 hours for my first couple of years and earn upwards of $200k right out? Also I know that Aspen Dental probable has already been discussed, but according to their website a practice owner makes great money and you can become a practice owner in less than a year of being an associate...so why don't people choose to do that more? I know there is a bad stigma that goes with corporate dentistry, but I think people in the amount of debt like me would agree that we would do basically anything to get out of debt ASAP
 
how much is your soul?

CoffeeDDS said:
Thanks for the response. Wouldn't I be able to work like 60 hours for my first couple of years and earn upwards of $200k right out? Also I know that Aspen Dental probable has already been discussed, but according to their website a practice owner makes great money and you can become a practice owner in less than a year of being an associate...so why don't people choose to do that more? I know there is a bad stigma that goes with corporate dentistry, but I think people in the amount of debt like me would agree that we would do basically anything to get out of debt ASAP
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**** probably barely happens and if it does its for like 1% likelihood...bait/switch

Ive been thinking about this and if aspen would screw disadvantaged people why would they stop at screwing you?
 
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sgv said:
how much is your soul?



**** probably barely happens and if it does its for like 1% likelihood...bait/switch

Ive been thinking about this and if aspen would screw disadvantaged people why would they stop at screwing you?
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Agree. Why not work in an underserved clinic? Do quality care, get loan repayment, and NOT be a money hungry corp dentist. Corp dentistry seems very similar to our politicians who also sell their soul for money and walk all over the rest of us. This mentality is why America is being destroyed...stupid green pieces of paper.

Also, corporate dentistry will slowly phase out all private practices if we dentists let it. I think there are many great group practices, non profits, etc. but Aspen, Coast, and the like = trash.

If you don't want to work in an underserved clinic then fine but do anything other than join this mob.
 
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proxbox said:
Agree. Why not work in an underserved clinic? Do quality care, get loan repayment, and NOT be a money hungry corp dentist. Corp dentistry seems very similar to our politicians who also sell their soul for money and walk all over the rest of us. This mentality is why America is being destroyed...stupid green pieces of paper.

Also, corporate dentistry will slowly phase out all private practices if we dentists let it. I think there are many great group practices, non profits, etc. but Aspen, Coast, and the like = trash.

If you don't want to work in an underserved clinic then fine but do anything other than join this mob.
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Now, I'm not trying to defend corporate dentistry or the dentists who work for them. But I think it is possible to work there for the money and still have a genuine concern for your patients and do what's best for them.

We've all heard the stories of office managers telling the dentists what procedures to do, but ultimately wouldn't our license be in jeopardy if we were performing unnecessary procedures for extra cash?

Any dentists with past experience working at a corporate practice have any input?
 
CoffeeDDS said:
I know there is a bad stigma that goes with corporate dentistry, but I think people in the amount of debt like me would agree that we would do basically anything to get out of debt ASAP
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And this, my friends, is why corporate dentistry is going to kill private practice.



Dental school tuition is the biggest issue in dentistry today, and yet people are going into 400-500 thousand dollars worth of debt without even thinking twice about how they're going to pay it off (not singling out CoffeeDDS). It's a terrible combination that has the potential to really damage the way dentistry is practiced in the future.
 
NDPitch said:
And this, my friends, is why corporate dentistry is going to kill private practice.



Dental school tuition is the biggest issue in dentistry today, and yet people are going into 400-500 thousand dollars worth of debt without even thinking twice about how they're going to pay it off (not singling out CoffeeDDS). It's a terrible combination that has the potential to really damage the way dentistry is practiced in the future.
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power elite theory. those with exorbitant amount of wealth can exert more control over lower income bracket. you can choose to not work for these people but there's more and more pressure for you to be their underling and hang up whatever scruples you have left. everyone's scruples has a price and half a million dollars in debt is probably close to it for a lot of people. theres pressure from student loans due to expensive tuition, broke states, and high interest that almost force you to make a decision that you would otherwise have never considered had there not been this much debt. if you didn't have this much debt hanging over you, why would any professional want to give up their autonomy to business bias where your robber baron boss influences your healthcare decisions? who has the greatest influence over interest rates? use of state funding? it's definitely not us. end rant

CoffeeDDS said:
Thanks for the response. Wouldn't I be able to work like 60 hours for my first couple of years and earn upwards of $200k right out? Also I know that Aspen Dental probable has already been discussed, but according to their website a practice owner makes great money and you can become a practice owner in less than a year of being an associate...so why don't people choose to do that more? I know there is a bad stigma that goes with corporate dentistry, but I think people in the amount of debt like me would agree that we would do basically anything to get out of debt ASAP
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Did you notice how their only angle for recruiting dentists is with money? That probably says a lot about their real hidden mission statement that's only known to their investors. if this is how they advertise their job positions to dentists, it's pretty obvious what kind of dentist audience theyre looking for: desperate dentists with money as the number 1 thing on their mind. whatever mission statement they have on their website for everyone to see is a BS public relations campaign. Compare that to private practices owned by dentists who hire according to patient care philosophies, personalities, and your quality of care. No private practice dentist would hire a garbage associate with crummy personality and low standard of care.

Don't buy into their public relations BS and their false advertisements for dentists. Just look at their corporate structure and see how much of a sell out you'll be as a professional.

http://www.thewealthydentist.com/blog/4418/dental-practice-management-company-faces-lawsuit/

they physically separate your care delivery from patient's procedure planning. a non-dentist gets to pressure patients into procedures that are not the best "textbook" care that's in the best interest for the patient.

"Attorneys for 11 people in 11 states filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Albany, but are looking to receive class action status so that they can include thousands more patients in the lawsuit. The lawyers allege that Aspen Dental Management dental practices placed a premium on securing expensive dental treatments from dental patients by using aggressive sales techniques which ultimately resulted in "unlawful fee-splitting with non-dentists."

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/809762

http://www.ada.org/news/8850.aspx

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...ental-chain-for-fundamentally-deceptive-care/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...cracks-down-on-unnecessary-dental-treatments/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...ks-chain-misdiagnosed-for-money-dentists-say/

http://www.cdhp.org/system/files/CDHP Pediatric Dental Medicaid Performance Policy Brief.pdf

if they're this profit driven, i doubt they practice CAMBRA. your choosing to work for a company like this automatically implies you're okay with their low standard of care. it says a lot about you. other dentists will judge you...(youre associating yourself with the atrocities listed above)
 
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CoffeeDDS said:
But I think it is possible to work there for the money and still have a genuine concern for your patients and do what's best for them.
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You got yourself into this debt and now other people and their well-being have to pay for your poor financial decisions? Does that sound professional to you?

1810299_Copy.jpg
 
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sgv said:
if they're this profit driven, i doubt they practice CAMBRA. your choosing to work for a company like this automatically implies you're okay with their low standard of care. it says a lot about you. other dentists will judge you...(youre associating yourself with the atrocities listed above)
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I have a hard time agreeing with you on this. I think a dentist who wants the financial success that Aspen offers can still practice with a high standard of care. Ultimately, it is the dentist who decides what treatment the patient gets. Yea someone can write up the treatment plan...but the dentist must have to look at it before he/she starts working to make sure there aren't any red flags.


Also what is difference between a public dental chain and a private chain. Do you not think the dentist who owns the private chain has money somewhat on his mind when deciding to expand?

I'm just trying to figure out how to adapt to the changing face of our career to set myself to have the life I envisioned. I think more people need to learn how to deal with this change.
 
CoffeeDDS said:
I have a hard time agreeing with you on this. I think a dentist who wants the financial success that Aspen offers can still practice with a high standard of care. Ultimately, it is the dentist who decides what treatment the patient gets. Yea someone can write up the treatment plan...but the dentist must have to look at it before he/she starts working to make sure there aren't any red flags.


Also what is difference between a public dental chain and a private chain. Do you not think the dentist who owns the private chain has money somewhat on his mind when deciding to expand?

I'm just trying to figure out how to adapt to the changing face of our career to set myself to have the life I envisioned. I think more people need to learn how to deal with this change.
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You won't work there for there if you hang onto your professional values.

"Church Street may be abusing patients, "grossly overcharging the United States government in Medicaid reimbursement claims," and focusing "more on achieving self- imposed quotas via assembly line service than proper patient care," U.S. Senators Charles Grassley and Max Baucus"

"Dentists may be pressured to meet quotas and perform more-expensive treatments "instead of focusing on what's best for patients," according to a website sponsored by the group."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-17/dental-abuse-seen-driven-by-private-equity-investments.html

We have multiple different treatment options. Any of them will fix the problem and all of which you approve of but ultimately it's the patient's decision and non-dentist will influence that decision once they get the patient into a secluded patient planning room, away from you. But some procedures are better for the patient and get lower reimbursement from Medicare/Medicaid. Corporations are all about profit and they'll push the non-dentists to get the patient to choose the ****ty steel crowns because they get the most reimbursement from Medicare/Medicaid.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2262927/Dentist-silver-crowns-little-girls-teeth.html

What's a public dental chain? A corporation has a CEO whose job is to please the investors/shareholders. If you don't please the shareholders, you're out of the job. Dental chain structure is entirely different from private practices owned entirely by dentists for reasons that I already listed.

http://www.finance.senate.gov/library/prints/
 
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sgv said:
You got yourself into this debt and now other people and their well-being have to pay for your poor financial decisions? Does that sound professional to you?

1810299_Copy.jpg
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As I already stated and will continue to back up...it has to be possible to practice at a place like Aspen and still provide a high standard of care. It's in your hands to decide, not the treatment planner.
 
If a dentist who worked there was being pushed to over-treat...shouldn't have the dentist spoken up instead of just quitting and find work elsewhere? Does that sound professional? If these places were so bad, they wouldn't be open.
 
CoffeeDDS said:
If a dentist who worked there was being pushed to over-treat...shouldn't have the dentist spoken up instead of just quitting and find work elsewhere? Does that sound professional? If these places were so bad, they wouldn't be open.
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Are you living under a rock? :laugh:

http://www.thedenaligroup.net/2012/...n-tx-some-opportunity-for-new-dental-offices/

http://www.wfaa.com/news/investigates/FBI-Raids-Dental-Chain-171418741.html

http://www.finance.senate.gov/library/prints/ (first link; senate is trying to outlaw corporate dentistry structure in Medicaid)
 
CoffeeDDS said:
As I already stated and will continue to back up...it has to be possible to practice at a place like Aspen and still provide a high standard of care. It's in your hands to decide, not the treatment planner.
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false. see post #40. Why is it not possible to hold onto your professionalism and still work for corporate dentistry you ask? Because you'll be fired soon enough if you don't meet their implicit quotas. seems like youre ignoring all the cases against corporate dentistry in an attempt to convince yourself that the f**ked up thing youre considering is professionally okay. The fact that these corporate chains create an environment conducive to screwing the patient and even encouraging it is reason enough to stay away from them like the plague and close them all down.

"Heather Haynes, who managed an Aspen Dental office in Joliet, Illinois, said that office managers who didn't hit their targets consistently were likely to be fired. She said that's in fact what happened to her. Haynes said dentists and hygienists, the office's revenue makers, faced the same pressures."

http://www.publicintegrity.org/2012...s-see-big-profits-adults-who-cant-afford-care
 
Last edited:
CoffeeDDS said:
Also what is difference between a public dental chain and a private chain.
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😕

http://www.thedentallibraryofmesa.com/private-practice-or-corporate-chain/

http://www.unionvilletimes.com/?p=10291

"Corporate dentistry, in the long run, is responsible to generate a profit for their stock owners. In fact, in a recently published story by the Center for Public Integrity, at least one patient of corporate dental chains had been pressured into accepting treatment choices they may not be able to easily afford and pressured into taking out long financing agreements.

Within a private dental practice, the dentist might make decisions that might not create a profit, nevertheless, will benefit their patients.

In corporate dentistry, if an employed dentist is simply not making adequate profit for for that corporation, they'll be fired. Although just about any company must make a profit, corporate chains have a track record of hiring dentists recently out of school who have plenty of education debt to pay off. The pressure to "sell" dental care can be overwhelming."
 
Instead of paying back the student loans as soon as possible, I think a new grad dentist should save as much money as possible from his associate income. To save more, he can live with the parents or roommates. Then he can use the money he saves to set up a dental office without having to borrow additional money from the bank. While he struggles to get his new office going, he can apply for forbearance….and not having make the payments on the student loans for up to 12 months. Hopefully after the initial 12 months, the practice generates enough income to allow him to pay back the student loans and have a comfortable lifestyle.

You can only apply for forbearance with the student loans. Can't do that with other (car, home, business) loans.
 
charlestweed said:
Instead of paying back the student loans as soon as possible, I think a new grad dentist should save as much money as possible from his associate income. To save more, he can live with the parents or roommates. Then he can use the money he saves to set up a dental office without having to borrow additional money from the bank. While he struggles to get his new office going, he can apply for forbearance….and not having make the payments on the student loans for up to 12 months. Hopefully after the initial 12 months, the practice generates enough income to allow him to pay back the student loans and have a comfortable lifestyle.

You can only apply for forbearance with the student loans. Can't do that with other (car, home, business) loans.
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Charles, that can certainly save you money, but at a cost of a good chunk of social life or privacy. I wouldn't advise it unless you are a 30 yr old comfortable still sharing an abode with parents or roommates. I certainly wouldn't do it myself.

I do agree with the saving money from associates salary part. This can be done by sticking to strict budgets, living below your means, and be frugal. Otherwise, doing the military is looking more and more like an attractive option. I was never personally interested in selling my time to the military and be its pawn, but if I were 500k down and looking for a quick, clean start, even I'd consider the Military. However, my feeling is that the military would eventually wise up to this and either cut back its terms of subsidy, or increase its time commitment.
 
What an ignorant statement.

Shunwei said:
Charles, that can certainly save you money, but at a cost of a good chunk of social life or privacy. I wouldn't advise it unless you are a 30 yr old comfortable still sharing an abode with parents or roommates. I certainly wouldn't do it myself.

I do agree with the saving money from associates salary part. This can be done by sticking to strict budgets, living below your means, and be frugal. Otherwise, doing the military is looking more and more like an attractive option. I was never personally interested in selling my time to the military and be its pawn, but if I were 500k down and looking for a quick, clean start, even I'd consider the Military. However, my feeling is that the military would eventually wise up to this and either cut back its terms of subsidy, or increase its time commitment.
Click to expand...
 
yappy said:
What an ignorant statement.
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To each his own, yappy. The military is not for everyone. You do owe a service commitment and if you are not the military type, it can be a drag placing yourself at the military's disposal and be sent wherever they need you. There have been many posts on here discussing its merits. Some have sworn by it, others have done analysis showing that its an economic drag in the long term. For me, it's the latter to take a large paycut from the private sector and to be obligated to do whatever they tell me. At my current debt level, I'd rather work to pay it off and enjoy my complete freedom.
 
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