Schools need to require more veterinary hours

[Pelagia]

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I personally don't feel like I 'took'' someone else's spot. I worked hard and I earned that spot. It was mine to do with what I wanted.

YES.

And also, like I said above, the person that Armymutt is talking about was my closest friend in vet school, my lab partner, my running buddy. I'm going to miss seeing her in school, but one of the first things I told her when she told me she was leaving was that I was happy for her, because she was doing the right thing for her, the thing that would make her happy. Her email to our class was brief, and didn't delineate all of her reasons for coming to her decision...nor did she need to do that, because she's not obligated to justify her very personal decision to the class.

 

[Bisbee]

You know, I totally agree with Flyhi...if you earn the spot, it's yours. You can quit if you want to. The vets schools know they will probably lose a few along the way. That's life...imperfect. People have things that come up and/or change their minds and/or see that it's different than they thought it would be. Those spots can be filled with people transferring from Ross or whatever.

 

[Armymutt25A]

It was mine to do with what I wanted.

This is where you are dead wrong, at least in NC. The tax payers of this state heavily subsidize our education, to include OOS. It's very short-sighted and selfish to think that you own that vet school slot. Maybe it's just my lack of an entitlement culture, but I feel responsible for doing my best to complete the program.

 

[Trilt]

So make tax payers pay an extra 2-3 years of schooling instead of dropping out and allowing a transfer to take their place? Someone who would probably be happier and a more productive vet (who hadn't forced their way through a program into a profession they weren't interested in any more)?

I think you've preemptively decided your position on this and are now justifying it in any way possible. Subtle jabs like "it's just my lack of an entitlement culture" are likely not appreciated by anyone.

 

[lostbunny]

So many people support you along the way and it is hard letting them down, but we are the only ones truly responsible for our own decisions. I personally don't feel like I 'took'' someone else's spot. I worked hard and I earned that spot. It was mine to do with what I wanted.

Nuff said.

This is where you are dead wrong, at least in NC. The tax payers of this state heavily subsidize our education, to include OOS. It's very short-sighted and selfish to think that you own that vet school slot. Maybe it's just my lack of an entitlement culture, but I feel responsible for doing my best to complete the program.

she said she EARNED it not owned it. She (and others) don't owe it to the f*cking country to complete the program. This isn't the military Armymutt, its VET SCHOOL. You should feel responsible for doing your best to complete the program for YOU. If not, then YOU are in it for the wrong reasons.

 

[kakurubird]

This is where you are dead wrong, at least in NC. The tax payers of this state heavily subsidize our education, to include OOS. It's very short-sighted and selfish to think that you own that vet school slot. Maybe it's just my lack of an entitlement culture, but I feel responsible for doing my best to complete the program.

What about the alternative of a student graduating, practicing for a few years, being unhappy and potentially negatively affecting clients/family/friends/others whose views of vets&vet med are affected by this person, and then choosing to move on and pursue something else?

 

[bunnity]

What about the alternative of a student graduating, practicing for a few years, being unhappy and potentially negatively affecting clients/family/friends/others whose views of vets&vet med are affected by this person, and then choosing to move on and pursue something else?

Or getting state subsidized tuition that you pay for with federally subsidized loans, and then move out of the country to practice? Isn't that screwing over your taxpayers a lot more than this girl that had them subsidize one semester?

 

[DickVetMan]

I have read this post up for awhile and I guess I will give my two cents. We have all gone through the pain staking trials of trying to get into vet school. We go into undergrad knowing what we must do and how to get there with so much pressure put upon us to get that high GPA, to achieve the desired hours each vet school wants whether it is a vet tech job, shadowing a vet, volunteering at your local shelter or farm, studying your butt off for the GRE to get that 1300 score ( I did not come close to that🙄) and then trying to write that perfect Personal Statement that will wow the selection committee. We send in our applications and we hope for the best that hopefully, this application cycle, one school will see "me" as something special, that we want "you" to be in our program and continue the proud traditions of veterinarians from "such" university. We go into the program, sometimes eyes wide open, and not necessarily prepared what is really in store. We may know vet school is hard, but may have underestimated the difficulty of such a course. Some individuals may have come from far away and find it difficult to be away from home. I live in Edinburgh, and I do not see my family for nine months. It is brutal to be away from them for that long, but I get through it because I find comfort in being with my classmates who treat me with kindness and respect. Some people may have personal issues and may have had a tragedy back home (losing a loved one) and that can affect a person's ability to cope during that moment while in vet school. The vet I shadowed went to NC State and knew of a classmate that was not ready to handle the pressure of vet school and dropped out. Well, three years later when she was in final year, that same person was back again. She kept in touch with that individual and that person managed to get their act together and graduate and became a fine vet. I lost a classmate last year due to tragedy that befell her family and could not cope anymore with school and decided to leave (it was a combination of that plus workload). She is actually doing fine and believe she in now doing a radiology program. We all earned to get into vet school because the selection committee saw that we had that potential to become vets. The selection committee does not have a crystal ball if we will make it through the program or not. As my parents like to say, **** happens. Plenty of good students are left out in the cold from the selection process and certainly have equal credentials as others who made it in and quite possibly could get through vet school. I don't know the schematics of how NC State subsidizes OOS and what is fair or not when a student leaves the program when another student could have had that spot. This is normal, students will drop out from vet school for various reasons whether it is in their control or not. I would assume most people would want to say you can control what you do, it is your life. Sometimes, life has a funny way of screwing you over and make things really hard to the point where you may not have that control anymore. I think we have all been there at some point in our lives. We earned our spots in vet school and it is out job to see it through and achieve our life long dreams to be a vet. It just happens that for some, not all the cards are in the deck. It is a shame, but it is the brutal reality for some.

 

[PendantWorld]

I didn't have a crazy huge number of veterinary hours when I applied (just over 500). However, I had started out in a completely different field (chemical engineering), and had pursued a great deal of experiences in that field (multiple summers of research, internships, research during the semester). It wasn't for me. I did a lot of looking at the next career path I took, and when I committed to vet med, I spent every second I could learning about the profession (even if I couldn't always put down those hours on the VMCAS). Because I had learned what WASN'T for me, I was able to tell that vet med WAS the right path. You don't always need thousands of hours to know that it's the path for you, and the places that I applied appreciated the diversity of my experience and learning how I finally selected vet med... I'm sorry that people dropping out has frustrated you, but there's a lot more that goes into that decision that number of hours put into the field. I'm not saying hours aren't important (they are!) but requiring more would put up additional barriers for people like me who didn't settle on a field until later in their education.

 

[Armymutt25A]

I think you've preemptively decided your position on this and are now justifying it in any way possible.

You obviously haven't paid attention to anything I've said. Every opinion I offer is carefully considered and calculated.

The satire of my original post appears to have been missed - I would have hoped someone would have caught the later Jonathan Swift reference. My point is that if you aren't willing to sacrifice everything to achieve a goal, then don't start off on it, which denies that opportunity to someone else. Quitting because you no longer want to be a vet implies that you didn't do your homework. The reality is more likely that you thought you wanted to be a vet, but didn't do a good assessment of yourself and your resources. Just because you are qualified on one level to do something doesn't mean that you are fully qualified to complete the task. There's no shame in holding off for a few years if you aren't fully prepared to sacrifice it all to finish school. The key is, by the time you are ready to go, you should have all your ducks in a row and there won't really be a need to sacrifice it all.

Lostbuny, your ethical code may allow you to be so self centered, but mine doesn't. If someone does something for me, I feel an obligation to repay that favor.

 

[lostbunny]

Lostbuny, your ethical code may allow you to be so self centered, but mine doesn't. If someone does something for me, I feel an obligation to repay that favor.

Who did something for you? Tax payers? You feel obligated to repay the favor to taxpayers?

People doing favors for others doesn't necessarily mean they want a favor in return, in fact a having the mindset of constantly returning favors basically over throws the purpose of favors in the first place. Sometimes people just like to do nice things for others, with no expectation of something in return. And to my knowledge, I don't think tax payers necessarily WANT to pay tax to help Armymutt through vet school.

And yes, I do agree with you that I am self centered, and being a 25 year old who hasn't even experienced half the life experience you have, I am surprised that someone with your wealth of knowledge can be so narrow minded and judgemental about the original topic, even going to the extent of crying about a past fellow classmate and colleague on the internet. Well done.

 

[Alhazred]

The satire of my original post appears to have been missed - I would have hoped someone would have caught the later Jonathan Swift reference. My point is that if you aren't willing to sacrifice everything to achieve a goal, then don't start off on it, which denies that opportunity to someone else.

I kind of have to pee, but I'm not willing to sacrifice everything to make it to my bathroom.

I guess I will just sit here and comb your posts for literary references.

 

[shortnsweet]

So what you are really saying is that vets should be fortune tellers too, so we all know exactly what life is going to throw at us from the time of our acceptance until we are well established in our career?? I don't think you are listening to us when we say more often than not, vet school drop outs are not people who simply say "I don't want to be a vet, i'm done."---there is usually something more. If they didn't do their homework, they wouldn't have gotten in. Do all the homework you want, but you can't always predict what will happen to you, or some of the sacrifices you WILL have to make.

And I will stand by flyhi until the cows come home. She earned her spot, just as you did when the time was right. She didn't take it from anyone.

 

[cowgirla]

-My point is that if you aren't willing to sacrifice everything to achieve a goal, then don't start off on it,

Not all sacrifices are things that can be "planned" ahead of time. For all you know, this girl was diagnosed with cancer or a fatal illness and given less than a month to live. I certainly wouldn't be going around telling all my classmates that. Nope, if I had to say anything, I'd probably say something like "I decided being a vet isnt for me anymore." It's not a lie- some things in life happen that change your priorities. And if that's never happened to you- Well, consider yourself lucky.

 

[Bisbee]

Armymutt - I don't think a person needs to (or even should) be willing to sacrifice "everything" to become a vet (or become anything). Although we may choose a career as a veterinarian, we also have other things going on in our lives: kids, spouses, friends, homes, parents, siblings. As much as I want to be a vet, I certainly wouldn't sacrifice ANY of these things to do so. In fact, if someone feels that way it seems overly desperate and enormously insensitive to the people and other responsibilities in his/her life. No one should have to give up everything they are and have to pursue this dream. We each have a life and must continually make both incremental and life-changing decisions based on new experiences as to how we will go forward. When we know better we do better. If something isn't working for us, we do something else. To keep doing the same thing and expect different results is insanity (I think Einstein said that one). Certainly there are sacrifices of time and money involved in vet school, but each person needs to decide how much of that they are willing to give as they individually come to understand the implications. Sometimes people don't realize until they see how much they are giving up that it just isn't worth it to them.

 

[Trilt]

You obviously haven't paid attention to anything I've said. Every opinion I offer is carefully considered and calculated.

Respond to some of the valid points, then? Not just repeating that you've considered everything, feel less entitled, "think of the tax payers!," whatever. People have pointed out that getting more vet experience doesn't necessarily prepare someone to get through school. Asking lots of questions doesn't necessarily prepare for the enormous workload. There are students who will transfer in to take the spots of students who leave (assuming they're within the first two years). They've stated that **** happens in life, and you don't know the whole story. But you're just always right.

You posted this last year, after you were accepted. I would hope you had the same sympathy for others as you were glad the veterinary program had for you:

Maybe I will add "Poster boy for the continuation of unpopular programs" to my sig. The fact is that people change. Some us us with a Y chromosome mature slower. There is no way in hell I was ready for this program 10 years ago.

 

[sunnex3]

I kind of have to pee, but I'm not willing to sacrifice everything to make it to my bathroom.

I guess I will just sit here and comb your posts for literary references.

👍

and now back to your regular scheduled programming

 

[missymayhem]

Longtime lurker, first time posting. I haven't ever felt inclined to post until now. I guess I feel strongly about this topic because, as I finish up my prereqs, I am weighing whether or not I am willing to make such huge sacrifices to pursue something that has been my dream since I was a child. If I do decide to go to vet school, but later decided it wasn't for me, I would be really hurt and angry if one of my classmates (people who should be the most understanding) did this to me.

My point is that if you aren't willing to sacrifice everything to achieve a goal, then don't start off on it

Frankly, I don't think anyone should be willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING to go to vet school and they shouldn't have to. What if I were in vet school, but my parents suddenly died and I was the only one in my family who could care for my 12-year old brother? Should I just say, "Put him in foster care! I gotta finish vet school!"? I have a good job - one that could easily support myself and my brother very comfortably and I have no debt. Obviously, I would drop out of vet school. And I wouldn't email everyone about it either.

People on here have already told you that you don't know the reasons she decided to leave. Maybe she said, "I don't want to be a vet anymore," because she didn't want to tell everyone "I don't want to be a vet anymore because my father has liver cancer because he drank too much and my mother is disabled so she can't care for him. Oh and my little sister got a DUI and needs a ride to community service everyday. I would love to be a vet but there are other careers I can choose and still be with my family because they really need me right now." For all you know, that is exactly what happened. Do you really think she should have to come out and say this to you? This girl doesn't owe you or the the tax payers of NC anything - not an explanation, not 3.5 more years in vet school. Nothing.

If doing right by the taxpayers of NC is that important to you, that's wonderful. You just worry about you and your education and your future career and your debt to the taxpayers. Let everyone else worry about their lives and stop criticizing others' highly personal life choices.

 

[lailanni]

An article by the RCVS in 2006 reported that only 53 percent of UK veterinary surgeons would still opt for the veterinary profession if they could start their career again. 20 percent would NOT, and the remaining percent were unsure. The apparent disenchantment of a substantial proportion of veterinarians is concerning.

The suicide rate for veterinarians has been found to be nearly 4x the general population in the UK and 2x the general population in the USA. There are several papers on this (it's my senior paper topic too).

I applaud anyone who walks away and says "This is not for me." It takes a strong person to walk away from something they may want, but recognize isn't good for them.

Our suicide rate is the highest among the medical professions. Only 53% of vets would do it again. Is it really worth it to stick with something and be miserable? No. It's not.

You can't understand what vet school is like until you're in it. It changes you. I'm a different person now than when I started 4 years ago. Circumstances change. People change. Life changes you. Sometimes the path you were on is no longer right.

 

[vetme]

What I take from armymutt is that every decision that you make does NOT just affect YOU. It has consequences for everyone. He is simply saying that a considerate person would ask themselves to think about all possible outcomes of a situation BEFORE entering into it. This way no one misses out on a possible opportunity. So, if you are interested in vet school and don't consider all of these, then you are not doing ALL your homework. And yes I think if you are going to do something you should give it your all and everything, which means sacrificing everything.....

 

[jradjsb]

Wow some people take vet med WAY too seriously. I want to be a vet, it's my dream, but its just a job. Just like any other job. I am willing to make sacrifices to attain this dream, but not give up everything. I am married and have a child, if accepted to school this cycle I will move 2 states away. If my wife decides she isn't willing to move with me and wants to keep my son here, then I will give up my position in vet school to stay. As stated before vets have a high rate of suicide. I know people who aren't stressed to the max that are depressed and suicidal. For all we know the stress couold have gotten to this girl and she was starting to have these feelings, in which I would't tell everyone. I hope that's not the case, but if so I applaud here for removing herself from the situation and trying to recover. As stated before she could have been diagnosed with a serious disease and knows that she can't continue school successfully while getting treatment, yet plans to return once healed. Either way like it has been said I's sure it was a very difficult decision that I am sure she cryed over, so I don't think we are doing here any good by bashing her on here.

 

[Armymutt25A]

What I take from armymutt is that every decision that you make does NOT just affect YOU. It has consequences for everyone. He is simply saying that a considerate person would ask themselves to think about all possible outcomes of a situation BEFORE entering into it. This way no one misses out on a possible opportunity. So, if you are interested in vet school and don't consider all of these, then you are not doing ALL your homework. And yes I think if you are going to do something you should give it your all and everything, which means sacrificing everything.....

Thank you. Finally someone sees through the satire. Does anyone dropping out of school affect me personally? Only those in my class, because they are a part of the family. If I was to expand this outlook, why would I bother donating old clothes to Good Will (besides the tax credit) or giving money to charities? Starving children on the streets isn't really going to change my life, especially if they are in another country. If I can dissuade someone who isn't fully committed from accepting a slot in vet school, then I've done what I intended.

I do believe there are far too many people who got the vet school idea in their head at a young age, looked at the career through rosy glasses, and never sat down with several vets and asked for the straight dope on school. I used to want to be a Special Forces soldier. Awesome job. But I looked into the training, noted that I was 28 and that most of my joints hurt after a simple 13 mile walk. I could have made it through the selection process, but completing the course wouldn't have happened, so I didn't take a slot. When I said people change, I meant people mature - people do not mature in 3 weeks or even 4 months. I realize stuff happens. I'm not talking about catastrophic losses here. I'm talking about things like my boyfriend is moving away if I don't quit school or my wife isn't supporting my vet school anymore. These are issues that generally have been building long before you walk into your first class. I sat down with my wife in 2009 and laid out everything I knew. We discussed the long hours school will require, the lack of income, curtailing spending, living apart, etc. She said she was fine with it all, and so I proceeded. If your relationship with your SO lacks the kind of openness and honesty needed to weather a small blip like vet school, it's not going to last bigger hardships.

I still don't understand how an adult can feel that they don't need to fulfill their obligations to society. Some of these are probably the same people who would be aghast if I was to pour used motor oil into a sump in my yard. I realize that most people don't have a clue that their taxes subsidize our education. It doesn't matter to me. Somewhere a grandmother is working at Walmart, paying whatever little amount in taxes from her check the government collect. I owe it to her to make sure that I maximize the return on her investment. I've always felt this way. I had a budget of $500K that I could have spent on equipment I didn't need. That money isn't mine, even though I "earned" it by achieving my position. I'd rather not use the money so that someone else could get something that they would use for their job. I'm an anomaly among government workers - sorry.

And Alhazred, I know you've sacrificed peeing. I've been hot on your heals for the bathroom after an extended lecture. 🙂

ETA: I have never focused on one individual. Citing someone as an example is much different than attacking the decision of that individual.

 

[Emiloo4]

Maybe it's just my lack of an entitlement culture, but I feel responsible for doing my best to complete the program.

I also think this is a common military trait that I completely understand and have lived with for 4 years. 👍 But not everyone does, hence this thread. Everyone is coming from a different place in their life and I think Armymutt may be a little misunderstood. Just to play devil's advocate for a second 😉. And I know I am late to this thread, but I wanted to point that out. Everyone should realize we all look at things differently and every one of us is entitled to our opinion... as well as the opportunity to "drop out" of vet school I suppose 😕

 

[Emiloo4]

Wow some people take vet med WAY too seriously. I want to be a vet, it's my dream, but its just a job. Just like any other job.

This is actually rather offensive to those of us who don't look at it as just a job... which is most of us... to those of us who ARE willing to sacrifice a lot. If you aren't willing, that's your decision, but please don't come on here acting like we are all crazy for pursuing our goals at any cost necessary.

 

[jradjsb]

I don't mean to be offensive. I know that vet med is a lifelong dream that I share with you all. Vet med is a life changing career and it consumes most of your life, but the fact is it's a proffesion. It's what you doing for income. To say that if we aren't willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING then we don't deserve vet med, sounds a bit harsh to me. I'm sure that if you really think about it there is something out there that would cause us all to give it up. Maybe it's just the non-traditional student coming out in me, but if you think that vet med is the only thing important in this world, then you need to get out more. I want to be a veterinarian as much as anyone else on here, but there are more important things in life.

 

[Emiloo4]

I don't mean to be offensive. I know that vet med is a lifelong dream that I share with you all. Vet med is a life changing career and it consumes most of your life, but the fact is it's a proffesion. It's what you doing for income. To say that if we aren't willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING then we don't deserve vet med, sounds a bit harsh to me. I'm sure that if you really think about it there is something out there that would cause us all to give it up. Maybe it's just the non-traditional student coming out in me, but if you think that vet med is the only thing important in this world, then you need to get out more. I want to be a veterinarian as much as anyone else on here, but there are more important things in life.

I am non-traditional as well, and I have seen many things to know that vet med isn't life, and I have "been out" plenty. If I were having this conversation with any person on the street, what you said previously would obviously not be considered offensive. But to say it on a pre-veterinary forum to people who -through these next few months of their lives- are ONLY thinking about their goal as a vet, is just a little inconsiderate. I totally agree that giving up "everything" is a personal decision, and not everyone is going to make it. I also agree that not everyone has to give up everything for vet school, and to them, I say bast*rds. 😉 Just keep in mind your audience here. I agree with your point, just maybe not the way you worded it to desperate vet school applicants . See... we're all just crazy right now!

 

[NittanyKitty]

Armymutt - I don't think a person needs to (or even should) be willing to sacrifice "everything" to become a vet (or become anything). Although we may choose a career as a veterinarian, we also have other things going on in our lives: kids, spouses, friends, homes, parents, siblings. As much as I want to be a vet, I certainly wouldn't sacrifice ANY of these things to do so.

👍 Ditto for me. This IS the field for me and I intend to see it through to the end. However, were one of my family members or boyfriend to become extremely ill or injured or if for some reason I needed to have kids NOW or never I would certainly leave school to tend to those things. There are some things that are more important than school, at least to some people, but I might not necessarily fill all of my classmates in on my reasons for leaving. Saying I simply had a change of heart might be easier and less painful/embarrassing/whatever than listing the real reasons.

I was actually asked in one of my interviews if I would ever consider leaving vet school if I was given a spot. I honestly answered yes and gave the reasons above. Still got an acceptance even though I didn't swear up and down that I would never quit, "no matter the cost". Clearly the schools themselves realize some attrition is going to happen no matter how they select their clases.

 

[Armymutt25A]

👍 Ditto for me. This IS the field for me and I intend to see it through to the end. However, were one of my family members or boyfriend to become extremely ill or injured or if for some reason I needed to have kids NOW or never I would certainly leave school to tend to those things. There are some things that are more important than school, at least to some people, but I might not necessarily fill all of my classmates in on my reasons for leaving. Saying I simply had a change of heart might be easier and less painful/embarrassing/whatever than listing the real reasons.

I was actually asked in one of my interviews if I would ever consider leaving vet school if I was given a spot. I honestly answered yes and gave the reasons above. Still got an acceptance even though I didn't swear up and down that I would never quit, "no matter the cost". Clearly the schools themselves realize some attrition is going to happen no matter how they select their clases.

You're talking about catastrophic issues. I'm referring to matters of convenience. There's a difference between euthanizing a dog because you are moving and doing it because his quality of life is in the toilet. Would you quit school if your boyfriend said he was breaking up if you didn't? If my wife said as much, I'd send her on her way. Chances are there are more factors than vet school involved and a separation in going to happen anyway. No point in being doubly miserable. Perhaps I'm too open, but if we're supposed to be a family, I don't see why one wouldn't share the actual reason you are withdrawing. It would be better not to offer any reason than to use one that makes you look indecisive or that you took on the program lightly. Even if my wife was sick, I wouldn't withdraw and say I no longer want to be a vet. I'd merely put school on hold, which is an option I know has been exercised at NCSU.

 

[goldnretrivrgrl]

👍 Ditto for me. This IS the field for me and I intend to see it through to the end. However, were one of my family members or boyfriend to become extremely ill or injured or if for some reason I needed to have kids NOW or never I would certainly leave school to tend to those things. There are some things that are more important than school, at least to some people, but I might not necessarily fill all of my classmates in on my reasons for leaving. Saying I simply had a change of heart might be easier and less painful/embarrassing/whatever than listing the real reasons.

I was actually asked in one of my interviews if I would ever consider leaving vet school if I was given a spot. I honestly answered yes and gave the reasons above. Still got an acceptance even though I didn't swear up and down that I would never quit, "no matter the cost". Clearly the schools themselves realize some attrition is going to happen no matter how they select their clases.

Yes! It might seem ridiculous but I have other responsibilities outside of vet school. I have a family, a disabled brother, and a younger sister. If I had to choose between them and vet school I WILL ALWAYS PICK THEM. If that makes me self-centered so be it. I am not willing to sacrifice everything, and I'm still going to be a great vet

 

[Alhazred]

You're talking about catastrophic issues. I'm referring to matters of convenience. There's a difference between euthanizing a dog because you are moving and doing it because his quality of life is in the toilet.

That's what you're comparing her decision to? A convenience euthanasia?

 

[NittanyKitty]

You're talking about catastrophic issues. I'm referring to matters of convenience. There's a difference between euthanizing a dog because you are moving and doing it because his quality of life is in the toilet. Would you quit school if your boyfriend said he was breaking up if you didn't? If my wife said as much, I'd send her on her way. Chances are there are more factors than vet school involved and a separation in going to happen anyway. No point in being doubly miserable. Perhaps I'm too open, but if we're supposed to be a family, I don't see why one wouldn't share the actual reason you are withdrawing. It would be better not to offer any reason than to use one that makes you look indecisive or that you took on the program lightly. Even if my wife was sick, I wouldn't withdraw and say I no longer want to be a vet. I'd merely put school on hold, which is an option I know has been exercised at NCSU.

I am talking about catastrophic issues because that is what it would take for ME to leave school. But my priorities, needs, situations, and personal tolerances aren't the same as yours, your classmate, or anyone else on this forum. Everyone is an individual, and it is hardly my place to expect them all to conform to my sense of what I would do for this career. To me that's the same as a student saying, "If I have to study until 1 am every single night to succeed in school, everyone should be willing to do the same thing." Frankly, I wouldn't do that. If it came down to getting an A on an exam and getting a good night of sleep, I would choose the sleep every single time.

Granted, the decision to stay or withdraw from school is on a much larger scale but it is still the same principle. Just because I would do something a certain way doesn't mean everyone could, would, or should do the same. If someone else would rather devote themselves to salvaging a damaged marriage or relationship than to more schooling, I might not agree or do the same thing in their shoes, but it may very well be the best option for this individual (or so they believe). This would be a very boring place and profession if we all had the exact same sense of the world.

 

[Wycolo]

A majority of you are saying that given a large personal catastrophe or family emergency in vet school could possibly cause you to quit. Understandable.

What happens when you are in practice then. For example you plan to leave work at 5pm to make your son's basketball game. However, a client comes in with a sick ...(pick an animal). What do you do? In a large city it would be easy to send the client elsewhere but in a small town you might be the only vet. What happens then? You miss your son's game or abide by the Veterinarian's oath? Missing one game might not be that big of a deal but what happens if it happens once a week for 12 years. Are you going to constantly turn away clients with a sick animal?

 

[Armymutt25A]

That's what you're comparing her decision to? A convenience euthanasia?

No. As I've said repeatedly, my opinion is not focused on one person, but upon at least 4 that I know personally and the countless others out there.

 

[Velaineil]

No. As I've said repeatedly, my opinion is not focused on one person, but upon at least 4 that I know personally and the countless others out there.

The point is that nobody is going to sit you down personally and explain to you all of their personal reasons for leaving- so you don't know what's going on, and you can't judge. Ever.

 

[lostbunny]

A majority of you are saying that given a large personal catastrophe or family emergency in vet school could possibly cause you to quit. Understandable.

What happens when you are in practice then. For example you plan to leave work at 5pm to make your son's basketball game. However, a client comes in with a sick ...(pick an animal). What do you do? In a large city it would be easy to send the client elsewhere but in a small town you might be the only vet. What happens then? You miss your son's game or abide by the Veterinarian's oath? Missing one game might not be that big of a deal but what happens if it happens once a week for 12 years. Are you going to constantly turn away clients with a sick animal?

What does this have to do with dropping/deferring school, and getting more/less veterinary hours upon application to vet school?

 

[Bisbee]

Wycolo - I would think that, as a practicing vet, an emergency with a patient would take priority over a kid's game. I would also think if these emergencies are happening once a week, you'd need to get in a practice with enough other vets so you could take turns with emergencies so you aren't the one who does it every time.

 

[flyhi]

This is where you are dead wrong, at least in NC. The tax payers of this state heavily subsidize our education, to include OOS. It's very short-sighted and selfish to think that you own that vet school slot. Maybe it's just my lack of an entitlement culture, but I feel responsible for doing my best to complete the program.

First of all, I don't live in NC, nor did I go to NCSU 😉 But, even if I did, I would have paid my taxes and therefore, would have more than subsidized myself. Heck, I may have even subsidized both of us 🙄. Second of all, I have paid taxes longer than some of these great guys and gals have been alive (obviously not SOV or you ). and I have no children. So, I have been subsidizing public education, after school programs, discounted (or free) lunches for the underprivileged, for years upon years for everyone else's kids, but not my own. Perhaps I deserve a refund? Thirdly, I went to vet school OUT OF THE COUNTRY and not only paid full fare while UK kids went for free (so no, I do not have a sense of entitlement), but also paid a 20% VAT to live and be educated in that country (which paid for their healthcare and their kids' education). Oh, and on top of that, I continued to pay Federal and State taxes in the US on earned income -still contributing to the public school system for our youth. And WIC, welfare, food stamps, unemployment and all the rest of the entitlement programs.

Yes, Armymutt, I EARNED that seat and it was mine to do with what I wanted. .

Face it, not everyone was trained in the military like you (thank you, btw) and vets are trained in the private sector. We are not given orders to go to a school (completely on taxpayer's dollars) with which we must complete as part of our career. The government did not offer to pick up my tab...I doled out the money personally with zero federal, state or other assistance and it was my right to decide not to do that anymore

@Missymahem - great first post and

 

[Megascops Asio]

Not everyone has the same value system,

Exactly. No amount of changing/raising requirements (whether it be minimum vet experience hours, GPA, ...whatever) is going to be a fail proof way to ensure people won't change their mind once they get in. If you change the requirements for school admittance there will always be people that will rise to the occasion and meet said requirements. But there will also be people who pass the requirements, get into school, and then change their mind for whatever reason.

While I can understand the frustrations of watching people drop out, its an empty and pointless feeling. Because there is absolutely nothing that can be done to ensure 100% retainment.

 

[gracietiger]

I believe one of the many luxuries that comes with living in this country is that a person has a right to choose whether or not a certain educational program or school is right for him/her. I do not find Armymutt's feelings of frustration in response to a person dropping out of a program to which he worked so hard to pursue unfounded, but like most others, agree that one can only respect a person's free decision to pursue whatever in life he/she finds most gratifying. Perhaps one can argue that it is a bit of entitlement, but what an awesome freedom we have.

The way I see it, the person who decided not to complete the program will either a) be happy with her decision or b) have to live with the regret of that decision for the rest of her life. In regards to outcome a), I think it's great if a person can find a path more rewarding. With the oftentimes sad state of current affairs, I believe that anything that increases a person's happiness and gratification can only result in a greater positive contribution to society. In regards to outcome b), I imagine the regret of a likely intractable decision is enough for a person to live with, so judgement from outsiders does not seem necessary or helpful. I understand Armymutt's reason for venting, but my heart does go out to this person who, if she reads this post, can clearly identify herself as the target of harsh criticism, when she may already be dealing with enough of it internally.

 

[Bisbee]

"We are not given orders to go to a school (completely on taxpayer's dollars) with which we must complete as part of our career. " flyhi

I'm sorry...I had to laugh out loud at this part about being given orders to go to school! You are so right, flyhi. We are fortunate to be able to make changes in our plans as we deem appropriate and shouldn't have to apologize for that.

 

[LetItSnow]

We are fortunate to be able to make changes in our plans as we deem appropriate and shouldn't have to apologize for that.

Eh. There are other holes in Armymutt's "I must fulfill my obligation to the taxpayer investment" argument as well.

For instance, the best way to maximize the taxpayer investment would be to put an age limit on vet students. After all, why spend $100,000 to train a 35-year-old vet who will practice for 30 years when you could spend $100,000 to train a 25-year-old vet who will practice for 40? If Armymutt really took the 'taxpayer investment' argument seriously, neither he nor I should be in school and those seats should go to younger people.

But I don't think that was really his point. His point was that he sees some people not thinking hard enough about what the field requires and what sacrifices it takes to make it through a med program and that the lack of investigation and foresight results in waste by keeping other people from the program and by spending public money that doesn't end up invested well. I get that. I don't think you can fix it, though, and I *really* don't think that his assertion that more vet hours prior to school will help. I think that if one really believed it to be a problem that required fixing (I don't, but I'm willing to grant that it might be), it would be better addressed in the interview process with some probing questions. You'll never get a 0% attrition rate, but you might be able to cut it down by digging in during the interview. Not sure.

Last comment, before I leave the thread and let people hammer on me ... this "sacrifice everything" hyperbole is hogwash. C'mon, people..... reality check, ok? Don't minimize the sacrifices of people who HAVE sacrificed everything for worthwhile causes by trying to claim vet school even begins to approach having that value.

 

[nyanko]

i'm going to quit school and become a full time hockey ref just to tick off armymutt now.

eat it cali taxpayers.

 

[breenie]

i'm going to quit school and become a full time hockey ref just to tick off armymutt now.

eat it cali taxpayers.

And then you'll continue to spank us on Fitocracy. Hmph.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Don't minimize the sacrifices of people who HAVE sacrificed everything for worthwhile causes by trying to claim vet school even begins to approach having that value.

Well said.

And requiring more clinical hours pre-admission isn't going to do crap. Vets work in many other areas besides clinics. Having a 500 hour, or what have you, minimum to apply to vet school would have done me absolutely no good - because I don't want to be, and never wanted to be, a clinical veterinarian. I actually had people tell me in school that I "took a spot away" from "someone who wanted to be a real vet" and that I should have done a PhD instead. I was almost driven to drop out in my third year because I hated so many of the classes/rotations, because they had basically no relevancy to me due to the heavy procedure-based approach. I don't care about how to unblock a cat, or spay a dog, or do a dental. I care about identifying viral inclusion bodies, differentiating tumors, doing proper immunostaining, etc. Does that make me less of a vet? More mind-numbing clinical hours, in all honesty, might have turned me off to the field because it is only one type of veterinary job /tangent rant

Working at a vet clinic is NOTHING like the first three years of veterinary school. You don't sit in a classroom for 8 hours a day having information funnelled into both ears with fire horses turned on full blast, and then have to go home and cram for multiple exams as a practicing vet.

I do see a part of your point, in that people will indeed get into the profession with perhaps a misguided understanding about what the profession is. But requiring more clinical hours is not the way to remedy this.

E
But I don't think that was really his point. His point was that he sees some people not thinking hard enough about what the field requires and what sacrifices it takes to make it through a med program and that the lack of investigation and foresight results in waste by keeping other people from the program and by spending public money that doesn't end up invested well. I get that. I don't think you can fix it, though, and I *really* don't think that his assertion that more vet hours prior to school will help. I think that if one really believed it to be a problem that required fixing (I don't, but I'm willing to grant that it might be), it would be better addressed in the interview process with some probing questions. You'll never get a 0% attrition rate, but you might be able to cut it down by digging in during the interview. Not sure.

👍

 

[Emiloo4]

Last comment, before I leave the thread and let people hammer on me ... this "sacrifice everything" hyperbole is hogwash. C'mon, people..... reality check, ok? Don't minimize the sacrifices of people who HAVE sacrificed everything for worthwhile causes by trying to claim vet school even begins to approach having that value.

Some people have to sacrifice much more than others, so you really have no way of determining what people consider "everything". Every situation is different and some people really sacrifice a LOT (maybe not EVERYTHING). I have sat through more than my share of Iraq deployments, and I know that HE is truly sacrificing "everything", so I understand your point. But some people really do have to give up a lot for vet school. I sure as hell know I do!

 

[rugbychick16]

Working at a vet clinic is NOTHING like the first three years of veterinary school. You don't sit in a classroom for 8 hours a day having information funnelled into both ears with fire horses turned on full blast, and then have to go home and cram for multiple exams as a practicing vet.

This. Times 20. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I just realized I said fire horses, rather than hoses. Fire horses on both ears is an interesting picture.

 

[LMMS]

And requiring more clinical hours pre-admission isn't going to do crap. Vets work in many other areas besides clinics. Having a 500 hour, or what have you, minimum to apply to vet school would have done me absolutely no good - because I don't want to be, and never wanted to be, a clinical veterinarian. I actually had people tell me in school that I "took a spot away" from "someone who wanted to be a real vet" and that I should have done a PhD instead. I was almost driven to drop out in my third year because I hated so many of the classes/rotations, because they had basically no relevancy to me due to the heavy procedure-based approach. I don't care about how to unblock a cat, or spay a dog, or do a dental. I care about identifying viral inclusion bodies, differentiating tumors, doing proper immunostaining, etc. Does that make me less of a vet? More mind-numbing clinical hours, in all honesty, might have turned me off to the field because it is only one type of veterinary job /tangent rant

👍👍👍 A-MEN! If I hear from one more person that I should simply go and finish my PhD rather than continue to beat the horse, I'm liable to beat them! Don't get me wrong, there is certainly a place for clinical medicine; and I believe that all applicants should spend some time in a clinic simply for the experience. Also, I feel that it's good to have a basic understanding of the clinical aspects simply because, well, you never know. But as someone who has no desire to go into the clinical world, the thought of taking on more hours makes me gag.

 

[lostbunny]

Yeah, and some of us want to be fire horse vets and the availability of them just isn't as much as GP and regular clinical vets. How am I supposed to get more veterinary hours in *my* field?

 

[finnerma]

👍👍👍 A-MEN! If I hear from one more person that I should simply go and finish my PhD rather than continue to beat the horse, I'm liable to beat them! Don't get me wrong, there is certainly a place for clinical medicine; and I believe that all applicants should spend some time in a clinic simply for the experience. Also, I feel that it's good to have a basic understanding of the clinical aspects simply because, well, you never know. But as someone who has no desire to go into the clinical world, the thought of taking on more hours makes me gag.

👍👍👍👍 YES! I am so there with you. I know they want me to have more clinical hours but it is very painful when you know its not what you want to do as a DVM.