But they did show dedication - they returned to school and did 2yrs of post bacc and maintained a 3.8 gpa.
Schools weeding out Asians?
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I am an Indian male, and I did not report my race on my AADSAS nor TMDSAS nor Predents (lol).
I get confused with being Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Biracial, and any other caramel toned race. My name also does not provide any clues as to what my ethnicity is.
The firstquestion I got asked by my interviewer at Midwestern AZ was what my race was.
I get confused with being Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Biracial, and any other caramel toned race. My name also does not provide any clues as to what my ethnicity is.
The firstquestion I got asked by my interviewer at Midwestern AZ was what my race was.
Which is an ILLEGAL question.
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Meh, I would rather someone that didn't slack off. But I'm not an adcom, just giving you a perspective. Are you going take pick someone who has been solid academically their entire school career, or someone that took 4 years off?
I understand your point. And it is right that he should be penalized for his undergrad GPA. Honestly, earning B- to B average from one of the hardest state schools are not easy. I know many of you have done and I am sure he could have done better. Personally, I do no think he slacked off. To compesate for his low performance that is why he is spending 2 or 3 years that other applicants . He earned 3.8 GPA for the past 2 years which is better than last 2 years of some other applicants. Still, ADCOM should not choose him when they are suspicious of his undergrad performance. It is up to them.
But let's look at from his point of view. He worked his butt off hoping to get into a dental school. He is getting old. He has no way of paying off his loans. Anxiously, he goes to predents.com and find that there are a few white applicants who get in with 3.0 GPA and 19 DAT. Some of them does not even have postbac works. I wonder how special they are. Then, he thinks about the ethnicity quota and feels bad that he is asian.
I mean the dental schools are getting very competitive every year but he has no interview with his current stats! I cannot think of any other reason. Btw, he has more ECs than I do.
I have done some calculations according to hekulease.
I added up all the percentages over 20 TS on page 37. Asians get 36.8%. So, 13125 * 0.275*0.368 give you 1332 Asians with 20 ts or higher. I have done the same for other ethnicity and they did not exceed over 30 other than whites having 13125 * 0.585 * 0.26 = 1996. Calculation above 21 TS is 940 Asians and 1344 Whites. According to DAT only, we can know among 3545 test takers over 20 TS, 1996/3545 = 56.3%
Whites, 1332/3545 = 37.6% Asians. Meanwhile, acceptance rate is 60% Whites, 25% Asian. I must think Asians do really bad in terms of GPA, ECs and interviews
. Maygyver! Can you still say his undergrade GPA is the only reason holding him off for an interview out of over 20 schools?
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I understand your point. And it is right that he should be penalized for his undergrad GPA. Honestly, earning B- to B average from one of the hardest state schools are not easy. I know many of you have done and I am sure he could have done better. Personally, I do no think he slacked off. To compesate for his low performance that is why he is spending 2 or 3 years that other applicants . He earned 3.8 GPA for the past 2 years which is better than last 2 years of some other applicants. Still, ADCOM should not choose him when they are suspicious of his undergrad performance. It is up to them.
But let's look at from his point of view. He worked his butt off hoping to get into a dental school. He is getting old. He has no way of paying off his loans. Anxiously, he goes to predents.com and find that there are a few white applicants who get in with 3.0 GPA and 19 DAT. Some of them does not even have postbac works. I wonder how special they are. Then, he thinks about the ethnicity quota and feels bad that he is asian.
I mean the dental schools are getting very competitive every year but he has no interview with his current stats! I cannot think of any other reason. Btw, he has more ECs than I do.
I have done some calculations according to hekulease.
I added up all the percentages over 20 TS on page 37. Asians get 36.8%. So, 13125 * 0.275*0.368 give you 1332 Asians with 20 ts or higher. I have done the same for other ethnicity and they did not exceed over 30 other than whites having 13125 * 0.585 * 0.26 = 1996. Calculation above 21 TS is 940 Asians and 1344 Whites. According to DAT only, we can know among 3545 test takers over 20 TS, 1996/3545 = 56.3%
Whites, 1332/3545 = 37.6% Asians. Meanwhile, acceptance rate is 60% Whites, 25% Asian. I must think Asians do really bad in terms of GPA, ECs and interviews
Maygyver! Can you still say his undergrade GPA is the only reason holding him off for an interview out of over 20 schools?
I can't say why he hasn't gotten any interviews, but I can say if I had a 2.9 undergrad GPA I wouldn't blame not getting in on my race. If he had a 3.5 undergrad GPA and was getting rejected, then maybe it would be a little fishy. However, in my opinion, I would always give the student who consistently worked hard the opportunity, no matter of race.
You mentioned it yourself, getting into dental school is getting competitive, and just getting a B average doesn't entitle someone to get into school. It's one thing to have a bad first year, but it's a completely different thing to year after year, do badly. Stop making excuses for your friends poor performance. Sometimes you can't just erase the past, you have to live with your mistakes, and sometimes your mistakes mean you can't do everything you want. Yeah, maybe it isn't fair that he decided to start working hard and do some post-bacc work, but that's life and when the applicants are getting this competitive, some people that didn't give it their all aren't going to make it.
As far as getting a 2.9 at a tough state university, yeah, it might be tough, but other people do it, and they are the ones who deserve the spots. I would suggest your friend work on a masters degree in the sciences and retake the DAT to show his new level of competence.
Ah, I guess I cannot twist your arm! Yea, currently, he is in Master's program and studying for DAT.
One thing I want to know is that if there exists qouta which now I stongly believe there is after looking at DAT percentages and predents.com. I wish ADCOM or ADEA release average GPA and DAT of applicant and enrollees for each ethnicity and gender. I am well aware of the fact life is not fair. If it is really high for average Asian, Asian applicants would know they have to work harder or even give up beforehand so they do not have to waste more time. Or is it going to be that controversial if they realese the information? It is true if a person does his/her best and gets great stats like yourself, of course he/she should be given a spot. But, there are so many others with lower stats getting in. When I clearly see a person with sub 3.0 GPA and average DAT gets into a dental school, I cannot say to the others with similar stats that they should give up.
I have another friend. He is international though. Now, he is in a dental school in another country. He earned his BS in US with 3.4. He had 20 DAT. While earning his Masters here in US, he only had 1 interview from about 15 schools he applied to. I guess internationl students are reviewed very different but just letting you know this quota thing can really hurt even for someone who has done a decent job. Can you please explain to me why even Asian favoring(having lots of Asian in their class schools) like NYU, USC, Columbia and etc have about 80% Asian interviewees but Asian compotision for incoming class would not exceed over 50%? Some other schools, I have been they actually had only 10% or 20% Asians. And their incoming classes would only have about 5% Asians. If I am wrong about the statistics, please correct me if any dental students can. I really wish to know now.
Well, this ethnicity quota should not have been a problem 5 to 10 years back. But the applicant number has increased by one third past few years. Rather than receiving all the application money, ADEA should release the more detailed information so that it can discourage some people not to apply. Or is predents.com giving applicants false hope?
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I feel like there are two groups: URM and non URM. Asian would be in the non-URM. I'm not sure where you got your number of 80% asian interviews at Columbia (my interview was mainly whites, so I guess I should start complaining too).
Your other friend probably didn't get in because it's very competitive as an international so a 3.4 and 20DAT isn't really that good.
Yeah, maybe it isn't fair for a URM to get in over a non-URM with identical stats, but that's how it is. It isn't just asians that get the shaft. My advice is to not worry about it and just make sure you do well enough that schools can't say no. Stop thinking the whole world is against you because a few of your friends with subpar stats didn't get in. Just work diligently and don't worry.
Your other friend probably didn't get in because it's very competitive as an international so a 3.4 and 20DAT isn't really that good.
Yeah, maybe it isn't fair for a URM to get in over a non-URM with identical stats, but that's how it is. It isn't just asians that get the shaft. My advice is to not worry about it and just make sure you do well enough that schools can't say no. Stop thinking the whole world is against you because a few of your friends with subpar stats didn't get in. Just work diligently and don't worry.
The last thing we need on here is a conspiracy theorist. It's all about the facts. The ADCOM doesn't have time to talk about what you marked on an application; they only have time to discuss what makes you a good/bad applicant.
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I feel like there are two groups: URM and non URM. Asian would be in the non-URM. I'm not sure where you got your number of 80% asian interviews at Columbia (my interview was mainly whites, so I guess I should start complaining too).
Your other friend probably didn't get in because it's very competitive as an international so a 3.4 and 20DAT isn't really that good.
Yeah, maybe it isn't fair for a URM to get in over a non-URM with identical stats, but that's how it is. It isn't just asians that get the shaft. My advice is to not worry about it and just make sure you do well enough that schools can't say no. Stop thinking the whole world is against you because a few of your friends with subpar stats didn't get in. Just work diligently and don't worry.
It isn't fair because URM takes spots from non-URM quota only. They should take spots from all applicants and not only from minorities. Statistically speaking, I only have DAT scores to back me up but as I stated before about 38% of 20 TS and higher are Asians, and about 58% are Whites. Incoming classes represent about 27% Asians and 58% Whites. I am not quite sure if those white applicants fall under disadvante category. But, they get in with 3.0 GPA and 19 DAT. Meanwhile, no asians ever got an interview with those stats. This is very suspicious for me. From the only data avalilble to me, this is what I can come up with.
BTW, I do not think the whole world is against me. I do not think I sound bitter in my tone either. I am trying to make myself clear with supporting facts. I am very happy that I have 3 chances of getting in at December 1st. But, I do not think it is a bad thing to let something I feel is wrong simply pass by. I am a minority and I need to fight for my own rights in my professions at least. I really do not want to(not much a politicain). Still, I am not gonna wait for society or others to simply give it to me. I am in a very bad position right now though. I really need to be in ADCOM to see what is really going on.
Compared to other careers such as business, such professions like dentistry are non-subjective and very fair because dentists are usually evaluated on their skills.(Patient relations are subjective but it is up to the dentist after they open their own pratices). Being fair is one of the reasons why I liked dentistry. I guess getting into a dental school is a bit more subjective.
Not surprised.
Not only are you exaggerating the plight of your people, but you are also naive and ignorant. Many things are factored into the decision of ADCOM members. The 3.0 GPA and 19 DAT of today don't have much of a chance anymore unless you have good ties to the school or you're a returning student (with a previously low GPA) that has an upward trend. Whether you're Chinese, French, Italian, German, etc - it means DIDDLY SQUAT to the ADCOM. If you're a bad applicant on both paper and interview, you're not worthy of a spot in dental school. PERIOD.
By the way...I'm a minority myself.
I'm not blind to know that there may be individual ADCOM members that are racist, but the process of choosing a applicants is such a strenuous and intricate process that race becomes almost obsolete (unless you're in the URM category). Schools these days have a criteria you need to meet (that have nothing to do with a quota - WTF? Get out of here with that garbage), and if you don't meet them then too bad...
It depends. If the applicant that worked hard the whole four years, as indicated by a good gpa had around a 3.5 and that was consistant - I would pick the guy who got a 3.8 in harder material for two years. My reasoning is that in simular difficulty the 3.8 guy out performed him - in other easier material the first applicant did better but again, first two years are easy classes so that doesnt really show much.
I think I have some bias though - because i'm the 3.8 guy. I see these jokers at my school getting an A for every B taking easier loads than me and I am pretty much 4.0 more difficult loads yet I know their cum GPA will be greater than mine when we apply to dental school. Did I slack early on? yeah, but I'm a better student than they ever were now - have been for 2.5 yrs. How does adcom account for that?
I think I have some bias though - because i'm the 3.8 guy. I see these jokers at my school getting an A for every B taking easier loads than me and I am pretty much 4.0 more difficult loads yet I know their cum GPA will be greater than mine when we apply to dental school. Did I slack early on? yeah, but I'm a better student than they ever were now - have been for 2.5 yrs. How does adcom account for that?
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I rarely see low post-bacc GPAs. It seems most people who do post-baccs get pretty easy A's. I messed up a little first quarter too, but I got my act together and fixed it. Anyway, best of luck, adcoms look at your application as a whole and I'm sure you have a good shot.
Last thing to Amalgam, Amped kind of said it: adcoms look at your application as a whole, you are more than just numbers. Worry about your own application and making yourself competitive and you shouldn't have to worry about other people getting in over you.
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I've seen some dumb posts before, but this one is right at the top.
You're trying to make excuses for pure laziness! Nothing else to say about that.
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Thank you Maygyver for the good luck. I wish you luck to as well. As for post bacc... this is actully my first degree - but I agree A's are earned well by those who have their mind set on dentistry.
Which brings me to my second point. I wasnt making any excuses - I admitted I could have done better. The # one thing I would suggest to anyone is if you're working alot drop the job if you can to do better in your studies. But to be honest dentistry was very far off the radar.
Speaking more broadly, my last post was that as undergrad continues it tends to get more difficult. Therefore, performing well in these courses is harder than previous years. For that I reason I was saying that the better, more capable student would perform better. Is this process about simply paying dues or is it about being the best predental candidate?
Which brings me to my second point. I wasnt making any excuses - I admitted I could have done better. The # one thing I would suggest to anyone is if you're working alot drop the job if you can to do better in your studies. But to be honest dentistry was very far off the radar.
Speaking more broadly, my last post was that as undergrad continues it tends to get more difficult. Therefore, performing well in these courses is harder than previous years. For that I reason I was saying that the better, more capable student would perform better. Is this process about simply paying dues or is it about being the best predental candidate?
I've seen some dumb posts before, but this one is right at the top.
Wow, such a hate. You can disagree with me but there is no reason to get mad. Did you even read what I wrote? I do not think there is nothing wrong being suspicious about a few whites with 3.0 GPA and 19 DAT getting in while asians with 3.2 GPA 21 DAT gets not even a single interivew. Just go to predents.com and do a search for the last cycle. I did not even care before this post. I just did some research and found out that among 3454 test takers with 20 TS. 38% are about asians and 58% are about whites but there are only 27 % asians getting in and about 58% whites getting in every cycle. Am i really that ignorant to make an argument based on these data?
BTW, i never called adcoms are racists. I personally think none of them are racists. They are the leaders of the community. Racisms tend to decrease because of these leaders. I want to know if quota really exists. Because the quota can be the main reason why asians with 3.2 GPA and 21 DAT would not get any interviews while white with 3.0 GPA with 19 DAT get in. Do you really think a guy with 2.9 undergrade GPA but overall 3.2 GPA by working his butt off for the past few years are less competitive than a guy with 3.0 GPA through out his whole undergrad?
We are not talking about super over qualified applicants here. Just because you have awesome scores, it does not mean lower stats people should just shut up in this forum. This forum should be for any predent students to share information, details and experiences to gain successful acceptances into and prepare for a dental school. It shouldn't exist only for over qualified students to praise each other.
You can call me dumb or ignorant. At least, I make my argument on the sources anyone can find while some of you just say out of your own thoughts. How do you really know if some individuals are racists? and how do you know race becomes obsolete because the process is complecated. These two statements you made simply makes you look biased.
I can say a lot more but I try to make my statements legit by basing it with the data and not talking out of anger.
Anger is not the word. Stupefied and appalled works better.
I'll make this short for you because you're obviously looking at the overall statistics. If you really want to prove your case, look at the demographics of each state and its respective dental school; then look at the racial background columns of EACH school in the ADEA guide. Might as well spill the beans but...the Asian population in the midwest isn't very large and several people (predominately white) actually get into dental school with below average statistics, such as Mississippi (off the top). You've also got to factor in how many schools one applies (No racist but Asians tend to want to stay close to home to be near family - but it can also be anybody) and where one applies to (e.g. Harvard, UPenn, Columbia versus "lower-tier" schools that accept lower stats). I can go tit-fot-tat with you about this, but dude or dudette you're so wrong! You've got to look at it on an individual level first before going on a forum to proudly proclaim the gap you find in a couple of statistics listed in the first couple of pages of the ADEA guide (that are most likely confounded).
How am I biased? You're making up all these crazy conspiracy theories by using statistics you don't even know how to explain. To even suggest or predict that a quota is in place for people of a particular racial background is insensitive on your behalf (and quite irrational).
Gah! I would hate to know someone like you in dental school...
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Exactly. That is what I want to know. On top of that, I want to know average GPA and DAT of enrollees according to races and gender. I keep specifying that I do not have enough resources. I ask for more information if anyone can give me so that I know whether I am right or wrong.
Anyways, I checked where those 3.2 GPA 21 DAT white applicants got in last cycle. It includes UNLV, Tufts, Michigan, Midwestern, NYU, UoP, Maryland and UDM. Some interviews include Buffallo, USC, and Creighton. Other than Creighton, I think these schools get tons of Asian applicants. Again, no Asian male got an interivew. However, there were two asian females who got in.
Okay, so, my other friend who is going a dental school in another country had a chance to talk to one of the dean at US dental school. As you said, the dean mentioned of demographic factors. His school will select applicants according to ethnicity compositions of the respective population. I did not believe what my friend told me. I thought he was just being just bitter. If what he told me is true, wouldn't it explain qouta exsit?
BTW, do you think Asians with low stats would apply to Harvard? They choose low-tier schools (simply based on stats and reputation I believe) that is why they apply more than 20 schools. From what I know, my friend did his postbac in another state for 2 years. Currently, he is in another state earning his masters. I am not sure where you are coming from by saying Asians want to stay near home. My asian friends from high school are all over the states. Well, it is mainly either NY, Boston or LA though.
I will make this last post. I do not have the data I want and I will not look for them as it will never be availible to me. My argument does me no good. Whether I am right or not, nothing will change in this forum anyways. Also, I do not like being hated. It would really be funny if we attend same school next year. One of us will really hate it. Off to chruch in a few hrs, I will be nice.
OP got his answers and will not check the box! I am not coming back here. You scare me.
BYE
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Hey bud, using a small sample size of non-verified test scores doesn't really make your theory that sound. As I said before, stop worrying what other races get in and start putting that effort into school. If you spent as much time studying as you do theorycrafting on this boards on how race is keeping you out of school, your grades would skyrocket.
Posting on these boards about whether there is a quota or not is going to get you nowhere. If you are really that concerned with why your application is lacking and why nobody is giving you interviews, call the schools or meet with a dean. In general, yes there are differing % of applicants/students (X% of applicant pool is African American, while Y% is accepted) but schools try to at least somewhat match the ethnic/racial distribution of their state.
Stop being so uptight and worried about small things you can't control and don't even understand (nobody really knows how admissions works anyway). If you get this offended when people have legitimate disagreements with you (not hate, just logical disagreements), I hope you can handle the criticisms interviewers will give you if you get interviews.
Checking the box or not is your decision, but I don't think that's why you aren't getting interviews. However, I wish you luck with your application.
To Yappy: My bad, I thought you were a post-bacc. I think schools do notice if you manage to get your act together while at undergrad. I've heard a few schools mention that most people slip up early, and they are really interested in the trend of your grades. This makes sense since they are getting the current you, not the freshman you.
Posting on these boards about whether there is a quota or not is going to get you nowhere. If you are really that concerned with why your application is lacking and why nobody is giving you interviews, call the schools or meet with a dean. In general, yes there are differing % of applicants/students (X% of applicant pool is African American, while Y% is accepted) but schools try to at least somewhat match the ethnic/racial distribution of their state.
Stop being so uptight and worried about small things you can't control and don't even understand (nobody really knows how admissions works anyway). If you get this offended when people have legitimate disagreements with you (not hate, just logical disagreements), I hope you can handle the criticisms interviewers will give you if you get interviews.
Checking the box or not is your decision, but I don't think that's why you aren't getting interviews. However, I wish you luck with your application.
To Yappy: My bad, I thought you were a post-bacc. I think schools do notice if you manage to get your act together while at undergrad. I've heard a few schools mention that most people slip up early, and they are really interested in the trend of your grades. This makes sense since they are getting the current you, not the freshman you.
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To Maygyber
Umm. I wasn't gonna post here again. I wanted to clear things up. AmpedUp simply said he hates me also called me ignorant. I have nothing wrong with a person disagreeing with me. I felt no neccessity to talk to a person who would simply judge a person on a few paragraphs. He could've said my statement is stupid instead. But, he decided hating. How logical is this? Well, his second reply was better and I like it. He actually got me working again.
Also, you mentioned schools try to at least somewhat match the ethnic/racial distribution of their state. So, qouta exist. OP simply wants to know that so he could somehow get more interviews by not checking the box.
I only worked on my theory after reading this post. If I really tried researching, I would have tons of data. I researched on what herkulease provided and AmpedUp suggested. Actually, what herkulease provided is a verified DAT score released by ADA.
You started getting confused among OP, my friend and me. He's not the one posting. He's working his butt off right now whereas I simply had lots of free time during this weekend. I worked hard through out the semester. I can enjoy my thansgivng and hopefully Dec 1st if i get in anywhere before finals.
Ok. This will be the last! (hoepfully)
BYE
I don't hate you. In fact, no one hates you. You just seem misinformed about this issue. I apologize if my tone was a bit harsh, but you were being a little rash about all of this. Just leave it in this thread. You're not going to be judged by me.
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Honestly though, I'm not sure what they do with unmarked boxes. Maybe you (or whichever applicant we are talking about) would get put in a whole different pile with everyone else that didn't check it as well. Admissions is such a mystery because every school does it different (slightly) and a lot of it is subjective (it's hard to be completely objective on grading an interview). Maybe your GPA is on par with the average, but you did worse in your pre-req classes than someone with the same GPA. Maybe you have the same DAT score but your individual sections don't match up with what the school wants. There are a lot of factors that go into admission, so I think blaming failure to get accepted cannot solely be blamed on one variable (checking off your race). To be honest, I feel like the only way you would get an "advantage" would be to check a "URM minority" on the application, which would be lying in your case, so I think you need to deal with the cards you were dealt.
Check the box or don't check the box, but I don't think it will make a huge difference. Improving your application would probably make a bigger difference than leaving 1 box blank.
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asians can't be upset about not being a URM in dental school admissions because they are not under represented. nobody is "weeding" anybody out. if not getting special considerations for skin color is an attempt to weed out a group of people, then white applicants should be outraged.
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Bit of a logical fallacy here on your part. Columbia has a post-bacc pre dent program and I've met a few of the students who do research. It is very likely that people that who do poorly in their post-undergrad studies usually realized that they have shot themselves in the butt, lost their last chance, and hence do not end up applying because they realize their chances are extremely low.
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Since you seemed to have brought independent opinions together via piecemeal for your personal misunderstanding, let's dumb it down a bit. Most Asians aren't upset. Many (part) Asians and (part) Caucasians like myself just find URM status and the admissions process as an interesting social construct, that is meant to promote racial integration through a rather blatant racist policy.To simply point out the admissions standard differential between certain ethnic minorities, doesn't imply Asians as a whole, are upset.
there is one and only one U of T and that is the University of Toronto (St. George downtown campus), which you alluded to. i am talking about back in the days (2004-2005 year) and word of mouth had it that there was a 3.5 GPA rule at that time. maybe they are taking it easy on the kids now, since they are breaking up a lot of the full-year(Sept to June) life science courses into half year coruses now as well.
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