Schools with BAD USMLE Step 1 pass rates

[Zut Alors]

I figure that this thread could serve to warn applicants about schools that you have found out about a school's pass rate. Most schools have good/great pass rates, but more importantly which one's don't? I feel that the quality of the education you receive obviously will have some influence on how you do on the boards. I also realize that your education largely depends on what you put into it--but there again, a bad pass rate would indicate that your fellow students maybe aren't qualified or motivated enough to be in medical school--a situation I don't want to find myself in.

The first school on the list:

The University of Utah

As I interviewed with an M4, he mentioned that 17% of his class failed step one! I think I probably let out an audible gasp. Of course my next question was if he felt it was a problem with the curriculum to which he answered no. Instead, he stated that it was just a problem with his class and that a number of his peers hadn't been up to snuff.

In any case, I found this alarming and an immediate turn-off about the school.

Anybody else know anything about schools with scary pass rates? How did the students/administration explain this? Are you more hesitant to attend?

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[tigress]

I'd be wary of student-reported scores, because they often aren't accurate. Most schools will NOT release data like that, understandably. I'm sure there are schools with less-than-great pass rates, but I'm not sure we have a way of knowing which they are. Also, it's entirely possible that one class could do poorly while another could do very well, and that some people in a class could fail while others do absolutely stellar.

So I don't know what to say about your experience at Utah, except to take it with a grain of salt. Most schools have a range of board scores anyway, and while curriculum certainly can help (this was debated in a very recent thread, but I believe it can), to a large part it's up to the individual to do well.

 

[Adcadet]

I think the degree to which a school tailors its classes to the boards makes a difference as well (both in material covered and test format). One schools that has students that might otherwise struggle can up their passing percentage by teaching to the boards were another will have a lower passing percentage because they don't sweat the boards as much.

But that said, I would be cautious about schools with a low pass rate, whatever "low" is.

 

[MoosePilot]

I think the degree to which a school tailors its classes to the boards makes a difference as well (both in material covered and test format). One schools that has students that might otherwise struggle can up their passing percentage by teaching to the boards were another will have a lower passing percentage because they don't sweat the boards as much.

But that said, I would be cautious about schools with a low pass rate, whatever "low" is.

I actually think this is significant. The pre-clinical years aren't generally seen as very relevant to the actual practice of medicine, so if those years do anything, I'd like them to prepare me for Step 1.

 

[Zut Alors]

bump

 

[BaylorGuy]

Kansas University medical school

They gave us data that showed that their school had some failure in the past years (<5 years ago), but it has recently been increasing and improving. The data was provided to the interviewees by the admissions office

 

[S@xplayer]

Kansas University medical school

They gave us data that showed that their school had some failure in the past years (<5 years ago), but it has recently been increasing and improving. The data was provided to the interviewees by the admissions office

Well, to defend KU (I'm more than likely not going there anyways) if you noticed the data, their worst year had like only 5 percent of the class not passing step 1. Every other year had been better since then. At least they care and are working proactively to fix it.

5 percent is not horrible, and I wager a good majority of that 5 percent would have failed anywhere else. It was proibably student related versus school related.

 

[okayplayer]

I would like to know why the data for pass rates on Step I/Step II, etc. is not released by the AAMC. This is relevant information that we should all have access to when deciding where to attend medical school.

 

[Elastase]

I was flipping through a FIRST-AID USMLE STEP 1 book at B and N, and noticed something interesting:

For Allopathic schools, the pass rate was on average 92-93% for each test. I was really impressed by this.

For Osteopathic schools, the pass rate was either high or low 60% (I can't remember, but I was shocked to see how low it was...I still think DO have great schools though).

The for those that re-take it, it was about a 50% passrate.

Then for foreigners taking it (there are about the same number of ppl compared to allopathic) it was 70%ish.

Can anyone confirm this? I am almost sure about all those numbers that I read...they seemed to have gotten from the actual board that runs the test.

Just wanted to add more info about step 1....

 

[Adcadet]

I was flipping through a FIRST-AID USMLE STEP 1 book at B and N, and noticed something interesting:

For Allopathic schools, the pass rate was on average 92-93% for each test. I was really impressed by this.

For Osteopathic schools, the pass rate was either high or low 60% (I can't remember, but I was shocked to see how low it was...I still think DO have great schools though).

The for those that re-take it, it was about a 50% passrate.

Then for foreigners taking it (there are about the same number of ppl compared to allopathic) it was 70%ish.

Can anyone confirm this? I am almost sure about all those numbers that I read...they seemed to have gotten from the actual board that runs the test.

Just wanted to add more info about step 1....

93-95% sounds about right from my copy of First Aid, although I sold mine so I can't look it up. I would interpret the DO school number with a large grain of salt - not all DO students take Step 1 (it's not part of their licensure) and thus it's mostly those thinking about MD residencies that take it. This could very well skew their pass rate if only those "gunning" for an MD residency take Step 1. On the other hand, their curricula is a little bit different and thus you could argue that they aren't as preped for Step 1 as their allopathic counterparts and shouldn't be expected to do as well.

 

[tkdusb]

I would interpret the DO school number with a large grain of salt - not all DO students take Step 1 (it's not part of their licensure) and thus it's mostly those thinking about MD residencies that take it. This could very well skew their pass rate if only those "gunning" for an MD residency take Step 1.

Wouldn't that only make the number higher than it would otherwise be? If only the "gunners" who actually prepared for the test took it and had a ~60% passing rate, then what would the passing rate have been if everyone had taken it, including the people who didn't care about the exam? I'm thinking it would be less, but I could just be messing up the math here. I'm pretty sure it would be less. Someone could probably figure out what I'm trying to say and figure out whether it would be less.

 

[humuhumu]

I figure that this thread could serve to warn applicants about schools that you have found out about a school's pass rate. Most schools have good/great pass rates, but more importantly which one's don't? I feel that the quality of the education you receive obviously will have some influence on how you do on the boards. I also realize that your education largely depends on what you put into it--but there again, a bad pass rate would indicate that your fellow students maybe aren't qualified or motivated enough to be in medical school--a situation I don't want to find myself in.

The first school on the list:

The University of Utah

As I interviewed with an M4, he mentioned that 17% of his class failed step one! I think I probably let out an audible gasp. Of course my next question was if he felt it was a problem with the curriculum to which he answered no. Instead, he stated that it was just a problem with his class and that a number of his peers hadn't been up to snuff.

In any case, I found this alarming and an immediate turn-off about the school.

Anybody else know anything about schools with scary pass rates? How did the students/administration explain this? Are you more hesitant to attend?

17% is hard to believe -- it would be nice to have independent confirmation. Still, if it is true, it's not a very informative number. What I'd really like to see are the basic stats like mean, median, SD, max, and min. Maybe that class just had a long tail on the low end of the distribution.

More importantly, check out Utah's match lists over the years (scroll down after opening the document): http://umed.med.utah.edu/residency/05matchresultbook.pdf

I imagine it doesn't compare to the top 10, but I see plenty of graduates getting into competitive specialties.

 

[sscooterguy]

I'd be wary of student-reported scores, because they often aren't accurate. Most schools will NOT release data like that, understandably. I'm sure there are schools with less-than-great pass rates, but I'm not sure we have a way of knowing which they are. Also, it's entirely possible that one class could do poorly while another could do very well, and that some people in a class could fail while others do absolutely stellar.

So I don't know what to say about your experience at Utah, except to take it with a grain of salt. Most schools have a range of board scores anyway, and while curriculum certainly can help (this was debated in a very recent thread, but I believe it can), to a large part it's up to the individual to do well.

I personally would take student reported scores as very accurate. My school definately does release pass/fail rates, at least to its students and faculty. Even if they didn't release that info, you could easily find out who didn't fail and calculate it yourself. I think this is an important number, but only students and faculty from those programs can really tell you what it means.

My year, only a couple failed, and it was because of personal/life issues for most, not meeting standards for one other person, and not much to do with the program, even though we just switched the cirriculum. The year after me, 10% failed, and after the school looked into it, they could only come to the conclusion that students were not prepared. After talking to others from the class, they said it wasn't the cirriculum, but the quality of students.

Ask around and see what people think about their program and pass/fail rates.

sscooterguy

 

[tigress]

I would like to know why the data for pass rates on Step I/Step II, etc. is not released by the AAMC. This is relevant information that we should all have access to when deciding where to attend medical school.

In another thread people were saying that this info isn't released because then the schools would start doing everything they could just to raise board scores whether or not it helped prepare students for doing well in their clinical training and then residency. I suppose that makes sense to me. Although I think it was more with regard to actual average scores, not pass rates. I would also love to know what schools' rates are.

I personally would take student reported scores as very accurate. My school definately does release pass/fail rates, at least to its students and faculty. Even if they didn't release that info, you could easily find out who didn't fail and calculate it yourself. I think this is an important number, but only students and faculty from those programs can really tell you what it means.

In the same thread I mentioned above at least one students was saying that his school does not release average scores, even to students. And I know students from a few other schools that do not either. So while yours may, certainly not all, possibly not even most or many, do. As far as calculating it yourself, that's what I sort of figured the student the OP mentioned did. But this may be a very bad method, depending on how big the class is. Because that student may not know everybody in his class, and certainly not everybody walks around talking about their board scores. So perhaps his friends or the people he knows did poorly.

I agree with sscooterguy that it's a good idea to talk to students about how they feel about their program and their preparation for the boards. I do think curriculum can make a difference, especially since I've known of schools that changed their curriculum after being disappointed with board scores and saw significant improvement. That's why I'm seriously considering going to a school that I know has an amazing curriculum, even though it doesn't have an amazing reputation (of course there are other reasons I like the school). But in the end it probably still comes down to the individual.

 

[ChaChaDocta]

In response to Adcadet's last post:

Here's the pass rates for year 2004 (First time takers only), and the link below to USMLE's site.

Allopathic: 93% for Step1, 96% for Step2
Osteopathic: 74% for Step1, 88% for Step2.

I think that the main reason for the disparity between Allo/Osteo pass rates is that many DO students don't have the same pressure to pass these boards. Many take both the COMLEX and the USMLE. So they don't put all their effort into the USMLE. While both tests are difficult, DO students aren't putting all their eggs in one basket if they are taking both exams, since they have the COMLEX to fall back on. Both will get them into residencies (with a few exceptions), and unless they want to practice medicine in Louisiana (the only state that doesn't accept COMLEX), they don't need the USMLE.

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2004perf.htm