Screwed up my life. Can I ever be a doctor?

[DeterminedDoc]

Completed 3 years of undergrad with a 2.71 GPA with a downward trend. It wasn't because of an illness or a family tragedy, but my own irresponsibility, weakness, and depression that has caused me to perform so poorly. I had no motivation to do well in school because I hated my life at the time for a lot of reasons.

I transferred to a new school to have a fresh start from everything, but still my depression hasn't really left me. I have been performing very poorly this semester more so than others and it really is showing as the semester ends near.

Its not that I have a lack of study skills because I am capable of performing well but just not consistently. My issues run deeper and I have tried counseling and medication multiple times with little success. I made a very stupid decision to resort to drugs to help my depression, namely marijuana but others as well. Though I did feel less depressed, it made me lazy and irresponsible with my work.

None of this is a valid explanation or excuse. It was my fault for failing to get good grades and it was my fault for mistakingly resorting to drugs to make me feel happy. I am once again slipping into depression.

I feel like a complete failure and idiot especially when I see my friends around me. I hate myself for screwing up hard this much. I haven't slept for the past couple days and have eaten little because all I keep thinking about is how much I screwed up my chances of being what I wanted to be. I have plenty of research, clinical, and volunteer work but none of that will matter without the numbers to back it up.

I can't take time off due to financial reasons (will lose my scholarship), I don't want to work in another industry for 10 years before this, I know I want to be a doctor. I just want to know that if there is any infinitesimal chance that I can still do this?

I just want to stop failing in my life.

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[flodhi1]

Never say never, you may have an opportunity to redeem yourself. Unfortunately, it is going to take a lot of time for damage control especially if you are determined on becoming a MD. I would suggest you look into Osteopathic medical schools (DO) and take advantage of their grade replacement policy. According to AACOMAS you can retake classes and the last grade will be considered.
However, before we talk about academics we need to talk about something more essential, your depression. Medical school is very tough, if you are facing depression in undergrad (relatively easy environment). Do you really think you will be ready to handle an academic institute which requires a lot more commitment, drive and positivity. You need to take care of those fundamental issues before you can really begin the healing process. 3 years of a 2.7 and continuous poor performance will require some time to heal. I would suggest that you perform extremely well > 3.7 GPA in at least a year to year and half of undergraduate and retake some classes for DO schools. If you can bring your GPA > 3.0 and closer to 3.3 then all you need is to work on your ECs and MCAT. You should score > 28 on the MCAT which just to give you a heads up will probably not be easy based on your current academic performance. If you're looking at MD then you need to add a SMP program (Special Masters) on top of the excellent undergrad performance (at least 3 semesters of GPA > 3.7). In the SMP program you will be taking first year medical school classes and it's essential you get a decent GPA >3.7 (3.6 is acceptable). For MD schools your MCAT score the closer to or greater than a 32 the better.
You still have a chance but you're going to have to redeem yourself in an exceptional way.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Never say never, you may have an opportunity to redeem yourself. Unfortunately, it is going to take a lot of time for damage control especially if you are determined on becoming a MD. I would suggest you look into Osteopathic medical schools (DO) and take advantage of their grade replacement policy. According to AACOMAS you can retake classes and the last grade will be considered.
However, before we talk about academics we need to talk about something more essential, your depression. Medical school is very tough, if you are facing depression in undergrad (relatively easy environment). Do you really think you will be ready to handle an academic institute which requires a lot more commitment, drive and positivity. You need to take care of those fundamental issues before you can really begin the healing process. 3 years of a 2.7 and continuous poor performance will require some time to heal. I would suggest that you perform extremely well > 3.7 GPA in at least a year to year and half of undergraduate and retake some classes for DO schools. If you can bring your GPA > 3.0 and closer to 3.3 then all you need is to work on your ECs and MCAT. You should score > 28 on the MCAT which just to give you a heads up will probably not be easy based on your current academic performance. If you're looking at MD then you need to add a SMP program (Special Masters) on top of the excellent undergrad performance (at least 3 semesters of GPA > 3.7). In the SMP program you will be taking first year medical school classes and it's essential you get a decent GPA >3.7 (3.6 is acceptable). For MD schools your MCAT score the closer to or greater than a 32 the better.
You still have a chance but you're going to have to redeem yourself in an exceptional way.

Thanks for the reply.

So have I basically killed my chances of MD (asking out of curiosity if its still an option, will apply DO too of course)? I mean I did obviously read your advice about it but Im wondering if things like these ever actually happen in the MD admissions process since it is much more selective?

I know three years of **** grades is going to really destroy my chances at any type of school, but in case anyone can advise if:

- by some miraculous chance I DO manage to show a strong upward

- Plan to get a masters degree

- Work for some medical non-profits and do some health related projects abroad for a year or two

- do REALLY well on the MCAT (again I know this list of hypotheticals is long by my best case scenario is pretty bad itself so I can't help but hope).

How much would all this offset my crap academic performance? Would doing a post-bac or SMP still be absolutely necessary?

I know there is no point thinking about all this right now because I need to focus on bringing my grades up. Im just trying to stay positive and to pull myself together but, its actually extremely difficult

 

[Catalystik]

There is a chance you can still become a physician, but only you can do what needs to be done to get there. It starts with getting the depression under control. Make an another appointment with your mental health clinician and keep working on this. Next comes consistent great grades, which might be easier at the start if you take the minimum possible courseload and ease off the ECs for awhile. MD is possible, but would probably take more time and financial resources than DO.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

There is a chance you can still become a physician, but only you can do what needs to be done to get there. It starts with getting the depression under control. Make an another appointment with your mental health clinician and keep working on this. Next comes consistent great grades, which might be easier at the start if you take the minimum possible courseload and ease off the ECs for awhile. MD is possible, but would probably take more time and financial resources than DO.

Thanks, do you have any specific advise to add in addition to flodhi1's?

What do I need to add/remove from the list that I have planned?

 

[Catalystik]

A traditional masters isn't going to help you at most med schools (rampant grade inflation being typical), since most schools judge applicants by undergrad GPA. I suggest planning either an SMP or additional undergrad postbac work unless you are targeting schools you specifically know consider graduate level sGPAs.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

A traditional masters isn't going to help you at most med schools (rampant grade inflation being typical), since most schools judge applicants by undergrad GPA. I suggest planning either an SMP or additional undergrad postbac work unless you are targeting schools you specifically know consider graduate level sGPAs.

A traditional masters isn't going to help you at most med schools (rampant grade inflation being typical), since most schools judge applicants by undergrad GPA. I suggest planning either an SMP or additional undergrad postbac work unless you are targeting schools you specifically know consider graduate level sGPAs.

So they don't even consider the fact that you have a masters? Does that weigh in at all? If so how?

Well I guess I have no choice but to bite the bullet and go for an SMP or post bac at this point.

If there is a strong upward grade trend at the end of next year, would post bac still be necessary or could I go straight to an SMP (assuming my MCAT is pretty awesome)?

My friend who graduated with me in high school just got into med school in the last cycle. I am thrilled for his success and I know that he will be a great doctor. However, a part of me still regrets the fact that I screwed up so much and won't be in med school for a while. Not much else I can do though not beating up myself over my past is a challenge. Ah well, ill just try to enjoy life as best I can in the mean time.

 

[Catalystik]

1) So they don't even consider the fact that you have a masters? Does that weigh in at all? If so how?

2) If there is a strong upward grade trend at the end of next year, would post bac still be necessary or could I go straight to an SMP (assuming my MCAT is pretty awesome)?

1) A masters may help your application in that it may offer research and teaching opportunities, but you can get those other ways, too. If you have the masters before you apply, it is looked on as a nice EC. A few schools will consider the sGPA of a hard science masters and weigh it into their decisions. Having a masters is more helpful when it comes time to apply to residencies, but not worth acquiring prior to med school unless you yearn to master a certain field of knowledge for its own sake.

2) Most MD-affiliated SMPs won't consider you without a GPA of at least 3.0, unless you are a member of a special population, so do the math and see how long it would take to get to that point. Some evidence of potential for success in the SMP, like recent good grades in upper-level Bio and Biochem help make one more competitive for such programs. You can see a comprehensive list of SMPs in SDN's Postbaccalaureate Programs Forum (see Dr Midlife's sticky at the top).

A way to raise your GPAs faster would be to retake classes with really low grades (for the same credits or greater), as AACOMAS only counts the most recent grade when calculating your application GPAs.

If you apply to an SMP affiliated with a DO school, they may have a lower GPA cutoff (I haven't checked lately), so look into that. There is a good one at CCOM in Illinois (Midwestern). A factoid that isn't commonly appreciated is that with sterling performance, it's possible to gain an MD acceptance from a DO-affiliated program. While this has happened, I have no idea how common it is, so I wouldn't encourage you to expect it.

Regardless of your path, you can become a physician with determination, hard work, and some grit. When you apply, your academic record should look like you're a completely different person with consistent excellent grades. If you have another blip in your academic road, you have failed to show consistency and are less likely to be taken seriously by adcomms, who will worry that it might happen again in med school.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

I feel like a complete failure. I can't believe that after 3 years of repeatedly screwing myself I haven't learned a thing.

This is my first semester at a new university (transferred out of my old school) and is my worst semester ever. I did so poorly in my classes and may have even failed 2 courses (its an econ course which is an elective and a biostats class, but still). Im not sure exactly what my grades are yet but I have a hunch that this is the case.

Instead of working hard and trying to turn things around, the fact that I screwed up so much already has destroyed any hope of me becoming what I want too. I kept beating myself up for this and resorted to drugs like an idiot to cope. This was a terrible decision and I know that I'm going to regret this for a long time.

That said, given my situation I'm pretty sure that I'm screwed from every angle possible. Im not a URM, I'm ethnically south asian so I'm probably the only one with such crap grades since every other south asian pre med i know has like a 3.8 gpa. Even if I were to ace the MCAT I'm not sure what good it would do at this point.

I still want to become a doctor, but its hard to keep going when I keep screwing myself again and again for 3 f*cking years. Im just having a difficult time trying to accept myself as a failure.

 

[MedPR]

You're fine if you are willing to put in the work now and get your depression under control. As others have said, if you're depressed now, med school will probably destroy you.

Here's what you do:

1. Start by replacing all C's (obviously this pertains to AACOMAS only)
2. Shadow DOs (Shadowing MDs won't help as much with your DO application)
3. Get a job (paid or volunteer) in researching
4. Do as well as you possibly can on your MCAT.

I'm in a similar boat as you; I finished undergrad with less than a 3.0, though I did have a pretty severe upward trend. Maybe I'm lying to myself or being too optimistic, but here is how I look at my chances.

Applicants like us can show that we are willing to put in the work and have a genuine desire to become a physician by spending X number of semesters improving our awful undergrad GPA and picking up good ECs - shadowing, research, volunteering, etc. Lastly, we can dominate our MCAT (whether it's our first one or a retake) to show that we are intelligent enough to make it through med school and be a great physician.

I have nothing against 21 year old M1s, but the older and non-traditional med students have much more perspective and probably want it a little more because of what they have gone through to get into med school. I think ADCOMs realize that and are willing to give non-trads a chance if they can prove that they are worth it.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

so to be clear then I've basically limited myself to DO. Not that I am uninterested in being a DO, but besides Carrib I can't become an MD right? Well thats just perfect. Im so proud of myself right now. ugh.

 

[FelixMD]

Your self-defeatist attitude seems to be your biggest barrier.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Your self-defeatist attitude seems to be your biggest barrier.

Yea I know, but given my track record so far I don't really have anything to be proud of.

So I'm just making sure then: Non-Carribean MD is pretty much gone at this point right? I mean if want to be a doctor its pretty much DO or Caribbean......

 

[FelixMD]

Waaaaaah! Woe is you! You live in one of the wealthiest nations on the planet, aren't starving, and aren't dead.

You should be ecstatic you are even in college, as most people never even get the opportunity.

Let me put it this way, you are still very young comparitively. Many people are way worse situations than you are, but do they complain?

You have your entire life to fix whatever mistakes you may have had. Sure it seems bleak right now, but you will see the world in an entirely different light when you're older, you'll see how immature you're sounding.

My advice: If this is what you truly want, make a plan, and make it happen. It's that simple. If 52 year old truckers can decide they want to go to med school, make a plan, and make it happen, why can't you, who has a nearly 30 year advantage?

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Waaaaaah! Woe is you! You live in one of the wealthiest nations on the planet, aren't starving, and aren't dead.

You should be ecstatic you are even in college, as most people never even get the opportunity.

I am thankful for what I have, but because I'm not starving or poor doesn't mean I can't be unhappy. Everyone has problems, some are bigger than others, true, but they are still problems nonetheless. What exactly am I supposed ecstatic about? Its not like I have a 3.8. Ive screwed up three years of school and am failing classes this semester. Im only entitled to be happy if I'm successful. Going to college and failing isn't a reason to be happy.

So what about my other question?


So I'm just making sure then: Non-Carribean MD is pretty much gone at this point right? I mean if want to be a doctor its pretty much DO or Caribbean......

 

[FelixMD]

You have your entire life ahead of you.

I honestly don't see why you can't do anything you want with the given amount of time you have.

Also, what's so bad about DO?

 

[411309]

I'm sorry but I don't feel bad for you. I'm at the lower end of the applicant pool for DO school (3.25 gpa). I made mistakes in my past, I didnt take classes seriously otherwise I know I could of easily had a 4.0 gpa if I had put in any effort at all. I could whine, I could give up, I could say the system is rigged but instead im putting all my effort into studying for the mcat to balance out my application and show that im intellecutally capable enough to handle medical school and that im just as smart as any 4.0 gpa applicant.

I know you have a lower gpa than me, but it's time to kill the apathetic attitude. It will destroy all your dreams. You need to understand that once you get into medical school you will face many setbacks but it's how you handle those setbacks that ultimately determines where you go. You failed in your past and you will inevitably fail in the future at some point but if you can't handle failure then I suggest you choose another route. Failure shows you your weaknesses, and all weaknesses can be corrected.

You make it sound like DO and carib are both awful routes...which couldn't be further from the truth. Many people go to schools like AUC and accomplish their dream of becoming a doctor. And DO is in no way inferior to MD school. If you want a "prestige" factor then walk around with a stupid smile on your face while wearing a sweatshirt that says "IM SO AWESOME".

At this point none of the SDN people know where you will go, only you do. It's time to either get off your butt and start working hard, or give up. For me the choice was pretty clear, the second option was no option.

 

[anthrovagabond]

Bro, a doctor is a doctor is a doctor, regardless of being a DO or MD. Why does it matter? If you can still accomplish your dream of being a physician, why does it matter what's after your last name? I'd stop worrying about MD vs DO, and start getting your depression under control and your life in order before you bum out on the loss of "prestige" of not having MD after your last name. If you want to help people and be a doc, WHO CARES whether it's Caribbean, DO, or American MD? I'm way lost...

 

[MedPR]

I'm sorry but I don't feel bad for you. I'm at the lower end of the applicant pool for DO school (3.25 gpa). I made mistakes in my past, I didnt take classes seriously otherwise I know I could of easily had a 4.0 gpa if I had put in any effort at all. I could whine, I could give up, I could say the system is rigged but instead im putting all my effort into studying for the mcat to balance out my application and show that im intellecutally capable enough to handle medical school and that im just as smart as any 4.0 gpa applicant.

Me too. It's hard knowing that I have no excuse for my GPA; it's low because I didn't go to class, I didn't study, and I just didn't care.

 

[411309]

I don't dwell on my past I plan for my future. I may have messed my gpa up some but I can counter it with a good mcat which I plan on doing.

 

[shaggybill]

Dude...chill out. You can come on here and whine and complain all you want, but you aren't the first person to screw up early on in college and then decide to get your act together. Stop being such a baby. Nobody wants to hear you complain about how terribly you've screwed up. The fact that pretty much every post you've made on this thread so far consists of you whining shows that you're not ready to start this process yet. When you get over yourself, fix your depression, and are ready to go, you have two choices here if you really want to become a doctor.

1. The Quicker Route (2+ years) - Go DO. First, take some time off to fix your depression. You will NEVER succeed in med school if your depression is keeping you from succeeding even in undergrad. It just isn't going to happen. After dealing with your depression, start replacing the classes you've screwed up in. Nothing will fix your GPA faster than taking advantage of AACOMAS grade replacement policy.

2. The Longer Route (4+ years) - "Try" for MD. Again, deal with your depression first. Then take a couple years off school, accumulate some killer ECs. Research, leadership, clinical involvement/exposure out the wazzoo, volunteering, etc. Do nothing but this. Get a new perspective on life, then go back to school and knock out science-heavy course loads.

Of course, if you don't do well on the MCAT, neither of these plans will work. In your case, you'll need a 27+ for DO, and a 32+ for MD to prove your ready.

 

[MedPR]

Of course, if you don't do well on the MCAT, neither of these plans will work. In your case, you'll need a 27+ for DO, and a 32+ for MD to prove your ready.

I disagree. 27 for DO and 32 for MD are for people with at least an average GPA. Lots of people with 3.5/32 don't get into MD, likewise for 3.5/27 and DO.

I'd say someone with a 3.0-3.2 would have to be somewhere around 34 to have a shot at DO, even higher for MD obviously.

Edit: For the record, I'm one of those people with ~3.0 GPA and I know I need to destroy the MCAT in a few months to even get looked at by DO ADCOMS.

 

[411309]

I disagree. 27 for DO and 32 for MD are for people with at least an average GPA. Lots of people with 3.5/32 don't get into MD, likewise for 3.5/27 and DO.

I'd say someone with a 3.0-3.2 would have to be somewhere around 34 to have a shot at DO, even higher for MD obviously.

Edit: For the record, I'm one of those people with ~3.0 GPA and I know I need to destroy the MCAT in a few months to even get looked at by DO ADCOMS.

I completely disagree, you need a 34 mcat with a 3.2 gpa? You should take a look at the underdog threads.. Im thinking high 20s to 30 with a 3.2. I doubt many people that get a 34 on the MCAT end up going to DO school, most people seem to prefer MD over DO. Dr. Willy got several interviews with a 3.0 gpa (actually I think it was a bit lower) and 33 mcat. So I would think with a 3.2 gpa you could prob get around a 30 + or -2 to have a decent shot at DO. But Dr. Willy is a baller, and sadly we can't all be ballers.

 

[shaggybill]

A 27 is completely reasonable for DO admissions with a GPA of 3.1 - 3.3. Take a look at my MDapps profile. If someone has the right ECs and has taken the necessary steps to show med schools they have turned their life around, they will get some love from somebody.

I only applied to one school, my top choice of ANY school based on how well they fit me and how well I fit them, and I had no problem scoring an interview, despite having a 2.1 GPA from my first go-round at college. After deciding on medicine, I've spent the last 4 years getting huge amounts of clinical experience, volunteering, etc. I got my GPA back up to a 3.33 and scored an MCAT of 27. My interviewers didn't even bring up my old grades, except one who very quickly moved on after clarifying that those grades were from many years ago.

If the OP wants to become a doc, he/she still can. They just need to quit their boo-hooing and get their butt in gear.

As for the 32 MCAT and MD school, that's only if the OP puts in a 2-3 years worth of good grades and gets some really great ECs.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

Completed 3 years of undergrad with a 2.71 GPA with a downward trend. It wasn't because of an illness or a family tragedy, but my own irresponsibility, weakness, and depression that has caused me to perform so poorly. I had no motivation to do well in school because I hated my life at the time for a lot of reasons.

I transferred to a new school to have a fresh start from everything, but still my depression hasn't really left me. I have been performing very poorly this semester more so than others and it really is showing as the semester ends near.

Its not that I have a lack of study skills because I am capable of performing well but just not consistently. My issues run deeper and I have tried counseling and medication multiple times with little success. I made a very stupid decision to resort to drugs to help my depression, namely marijuana but others as well. Though I did feel less depressed, it made me lazy and irresponsible with my work.

None of this is a valid explanation or excuse. It was my fault for failing to get good grades and it was my fault for mistakingly resorting to drugs to make me feel happy. I am once again slipping into depression.

I feel like a complete failure and idiot especially when I see my friends around me. I hate myself for screwing up hard this much. I haven't slept for the past couple days and have eaten little because all I keep thinking about is how much I screwed up my chances of being what I wanted to be. I have plenty of research, clinical, and volunteer work but none of that will matter without the numbers to back it up.

I can't take time off due to financial reasons (will lose my scholarship), I don't want to work in another industry for 10 years before this, I know I want to be a doctor. I just want to know that if there is any infinitesimal chance that I can still do this?

I just want to stop failing in my life.

First, get your depression under control. This is the single most important thing to do. I know at least one recent med school grad (in Canada) who had depression (it is generally harder to get in med. school in Canada, so becoming a Dr. after depression is possible). Do not take recreational drugs. Occasional MJ use may be OK, but no more than once a week. Next, reevaluate your life. Depression is a big monster but is generally treatable. SNRIs can help in most cases, but you need the meds that work for you. If your depression has a cyclical component, mood stabilisers / anti-seizures, such as lamotrigine may help. Then, get the book "Feeling Good" by Dr. David Burns and stick with its program. Also, stop indulging in self-pitty, give yourself a good kick in the arse and start the recovery process. The process will not be easy, but it is necessary.
Then comes the hard work. You may want to switch programs so you can be in undergad for three more years. Many schools put a lot of weight on your last 3 full-time years, some will even consider just the last 3; find out which ones. During those 3 years, take all the pre-reqs needed for your school(s) of choice. Ace everything from now on. If you feel any of the early Sxs of depression, run to your Family Doc. These are usually Sxs you had before your emotions become affected, such as extreme tiredeness, sleep disturbances/non restful sleep, difficulty concentrating, irritability, avolition, etc. This is a good time to avoid all other drugs, even MJ. Lots of sacrifices coming your way. Treat school like it is a full-time profession and put a lot of time and effort. You also need to make time to study for the MCAT.
Keep a social life but don't overdo it. Limit your intake of TV to less than 10hrs a week. TV can be a serious time waster for depressives. Exercise. You need both aerobic and anaerobic exercises if you want to have any chance to overcome your depression and survive through school. You probably guessed the last one: eat a proper diet.
Your case is not hopeless, but it will take a few extra years. You will come out of it wiser and will realise 2 - 3 extra years is not that long if you finally reach your goal, especially if you live those extra years without illnesses, are productive and maintain a good relationship with your friends and loved ones.

I wish you all the best.

Be brave.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

So if I want to apply MD thats going to take 3 years of coursework on top of the year and a half I have left at school?

I mean what if I was able to get my GPA around a 3-3.1 by the time I graduate or maybe take a few extra courses after to bring it up that high and do an SMP?

Even though I only have a year and a half left, would showing a strong upward trend and having a really good MCAT score matter or would that not be something thats really looked at?

I plan on doing a masters in cancer research before med school and I want to work for some medical non-profits abroad as well as do some research in public health.

That said its not about applying DO or not. I will apply DO but I just wanted to know at this point if all my hypothetical goals were achieved and I had the best application I could, would or would I not be able to be competitive for a US/Cdn MD (I am studying at UBC but am a US Citizen/Cdn PR)? But I think at this point its pretty clear that MD isn't going to happen so I will learn to accept it just as another one of my several screw ups in life and continue on. I mean to know that I could have had that option if I was a little less stupid in life frankly sucks. so onto DO:

So for the AACOMAS should I retake all classes that I have a C on? Cuz thats like an additional 2 years of coursework and I might as well try MD if I'm taking that much extra time being in school. Should I just retake classes that I have VERY bad grades in and maybe some of my pre-reqs (retaking classes is such a waste of time and money so I do want to limit how much of that I waste)? Could I just take a bunch of upper level bio and chem classes instead?

As for the MCAT Im now aiming for a 27 right?

So should I stop shadowing MDs and request to shadow DOs?

Any other ECs for DO that I should look into?

 

[shaggybill]

I wouldn't say that MD is impossible, but it's going to take several more years to overcome the damage already done than it will if you are willing to go DO.

DO is quicker because you can bring your GPA to a 3.1+ much faster by retaking classes. To bring it to that numer with AMCAS it will take you twice as long, if not longer. Play with a GPA calculator if you don't believe me. Trust me, grade replacement is your friend.

Secondly, don't look at retaking classes as a waste of time. If your goal is to become a doctor, then look at it as the fastest way to reach your goal. It's all about jumping through the hoops and going through the motions at this point. Nobody wants to do undergrad. The majority of the classes we take have nothing to do with medicine, but we all do it in order to become med students. Think of retaking classes in this light.

If you are ok with going DO, then yes, start shadowing DOs.That letter is important. During my interview last week, the Clinical Dean at that school was very impressed with my DO letter, saying the fact that I had such a glowing letter from such a prominent physician was something that carries a lot of weight. Don't take the DO letter lightly.

Volunteer. As much as you can, but not to the point where it gets in the way of schoolwork. Do things that show altruism. It doesn't have to be medically related. DO schools are all about giving back to the community. If you can demonstrate that you have an interest in doing this, it'll just be one more thing to help you stand out.

As for research, I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time on it unless it's something that you are really 100% interested in doing, as in something you want to do both during and after med school. DO schools like to produce doctors who go back out into their communities and practice medicine. Not to say research is frowned upon by any means, but it's generally not the top priority of any DO school. Don't do it just to have something to put on your application.

Yes, shoot for at least a 27 MCAT.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

It just sucks, like its literally painful so stay awake for the past few days. To know that I can't be an MD anymore just because I was a stupid irresponsible ****** in college who never learned after each failed semester is just sad and pathetic. Whatever, I'm used failure that its all I will learn to expect in my life from now on. Just like all my goals in life, I will have to accept the fact that I'm just too stupid to be an MD. I. Love. Myself. Right. Now.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

My family being South Asian, also has an inherent bias towards DOs since the majority of south asian docs are MDs. But beggars and failures can never be choosers so I have to bite the bullet and learn to accept my own failure since that is who I am. I wish I could reverse time but I have to deal with what life gives me.

And just to be sure Carribean is worse than DO right?

 

[DeterminedDoc]

I just want to make sure that I did a good job failing. Thats at least something I can still do, if I still have any MD options open let me know so that I can screw that up too and feel good about myself.

 

[shaggybill]

Sorry man, but now you're just trolling. Come back and ask for advice when you've grown up a little bit.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Sorry man, but now you're just trolling. Come back and ask for advice when you've grown up a little bit.

I didn't mean to make three posts, I tried to put all that into one but my comp wouldn't let me for some reason and I had to make multiple entries. Sorry about that, but I wasn't trying to troll. It is actually a pretty crappy feeling to have.

Oh yea and since I go to school at UBC in Canada, I forgot that the hospital I am going to be working at has no DOs since this is Canada and I forgot that the DO degree is pretty much limited to the States. So if I can't even shadow DOs I guess ill start packing up my bags for the good Caribbean weather and the crappy medical education. Isn't the future always so bright?

And retaking classes is a waste of time - learning the same material over again isn't going to help me be a better doctor. I would rather spend time taking higher level bio classes to boost up my GPA rather than having to do O-chem all over again. Its also comparatively less crippling for me internally since I wouldn't be doing kinematics problems while all my friends are busy studying for the USMLEs.

 

[dreamweaver1988]

Thanks for the reply.

So have I basically killed my chances of MD (asking out of curiosity if itsstill an option, will apply DO too of course)? I mean I did obviously read youradvice about it but Im wondering if things like these ever actually happen inthe MD admissions process since it is much more selective?

I know three years of **** grades is going to really destroy my chances atany type of school, but in case anyone can advise if:

- by some miraculous chance I DO manage to show a strong upward

- Plan to get a masters degree

- Work for some medical non-profits and do some health related projectsabroad for a year or two

- do REALLY well on the MCAT (again I know this list of hypotheticals islong by my best case scenario is pretty bad itself so I can't help but hope).

How much would all this offset my crap academic performance? Would doing apost-bac or SMP still be absolutely necessary?

I know there is no point thinking about all this right now because I need tofocus on bringing my grades up. Im just trying to stay positive and to pullmyself together but, its actually extremely difficult

You would be amazed at what grade replacement can do for your GPA. Fortunately, I haven't had to take advantage of this policy (knock on wood) buthere's an example.

3 years undergraduate work (let's say 80 credit hours) @ 2.71 GPA [sound familiar?]

80 * 2.71 = ~217 (this is how many points you have; if you had 320, your GPAwould be 4.0)

Retake, for example, four classes (ideally science classes) like Chem I/II and Bio I/II (16 credit hours total) and get As instead of Cs. Even bumping from Bs to As will make a big difference (see below).

If you got Cs (2 points awarded per credit hour) the first time around in the aforementioned four classes: (16 credit hours) * (2 points per credit hour) = 32 points. After retaking for A credit, you have 16 * 4 = 64 points. Difference of 32 points, which you add to your existing 217 to end up with 249 points. You still have the same number of credit hours (well, not really, but for the purposes of AACOMAS GPA, yes). 249 / 80 = 3.11 GPA. That’s a HUGE improvement that could happen over just two semesters. This doesn’t even include additional courses you will be taking (or retaking) and presumably getting As in. Imagine what could happen when you retake four, five, even six classes. This can be accomplished over two semesters or even something like Spring 2012 and Summer 2012, so you could get back on track starting next fall.

For Bs the first time around, you go from (16 * 3 = 48 points) to (16 * 4 =64 points). Difference is 16 points, which you add to your 217 to get 233. 233/ 80 = 2.91. Still a big improvement, but obviously you have more important things to worry about then retaking classes to go from B credit to A credit.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Retake, for example, four classes (ideally science classes) like Chem I/II and Bio I/II (16 credit hours total) and get As instead of Cs. Even bumping from Bs to As will make a big difference (see below).

As much as I would LOVE nothing more than to go back to balancing chemical equations after 4 years of undergrad, I don't think I could financially. I don't have an income and my parents are paying for school. Taking extra classes isn't free and my parents aren't going to pay for me to go redo college at 21. I had my chance and I screwed it up.

So the only other option for me is to try and get as high a trend I can before I graduate and do as well as I can on the MCAT. As for extra classes, I may enter a year long post-bac somewhere to take some upper level science courses and apply for a masters after (or I may do this before idk) and work abroad for some medical non-profits for a year and do some other stuff I have planned.

Maybe if there is a God, and that God chooses to smile upon my fate, I may remotely be able to be an MD. However, im never that lucky and am done expecting good things to happen in my life. DO it will be I guess.

 

[Cornell08]

get yourself help for your depression....then get over yourself. Your anti-DO sentiments are communicating an obsession with vanity and are inane-- no one cares if you're a DO or an MD. They care that you're competent.

 

[dreamweaver1988]

get yourself help for your depression....then get over yourself. Your anti-DO sentiments are communicating an obsession with vanity and are inane-- no one cares if you're a DO or an MD. They care that you're competent.

For realz. You remind me of a friend I used to have. I dropped him like a bad habit when he started to ruin my positive vibes. Anyway...

Do you really want to be forced to established an epic upward trend (very, very difficult, as the classes only get harder)? Is that rational or wise?

It would be much wise to retake (like I said) a few classes and give yourself some breathing room. I don't like you enough to take the time to crunch the numbers (again) but trust me when I say that getting As from now on will not have as great an effect as will retaking Cs for As.

Nobody cares what classes you "should" be taking, or where you are relative to your peers. Most of my friends graduated college in May 2011, but I'm sticking around in college because I'm shooting for bigger and better things. I don't care that they're out in the real world working. So just do what you want.

Also, get over the whole MD/DO thing. Everyone knows the MD degree is slightly more prestigious, but you will be doing exactly the same thing and earning exactly the same, so who cares?

One last thing...you are either a troll of epic proportions or in need of some serious counseling/ pyschiatric assistance. Get yourself in order before you worry about your future.

 

[dreamweaver1988]

"DO it will be I guess."

I should add that with your current numbers you have a very small chance of being accepted into a DO school.

Example (KCUMB): average matriculant 3.55 cGPA, 3.51 sGPA, 26 MCAT

 

[DeterminedDoc]

"DO it will be I guess."

I should add that with your current numbers you have a very small chance of being accepted into a DO school.

Example (KCUMB): average matriculant 3.55 cGPA, 3.51 sGPA, 26 MCAT

Yea sorry about that, my intent wasn't to make it sound like it sucks. I know im way screwed for DO acceptance too, but ive just accepted that everything is going to be screwed up here on out anyway so its not like I need to panic anymore lol.

I wasn't trying to downplay DO vs MD at all, I didn't mention anything about DO or MD being better or worse. I know that there are good and bad DOs just like there are good and bad MDs and I don't really care the reason that other people choose DO or MD. For example, for someone who inherently prefers osteopathic medicine over allopathic medicine should go DO, someone who has a family to think about may choose DO if thats the best option in that case, someone who was inspired by a DO, etc. etc. There could be a million rational reasons for why people choose DO or MD.

All that matters to me is MY reason for doing what I want to do. If I had any of the above mentioned reasons, then I would be justified in going DO. However the only reason why im applying DO is because I just plain suck too much to be an MD anymore. Im not sure how im supposed to feel "good" about that?

Get yourself in order before you worry about your future.

Unfortunately its my future that is obviously messed up at this point which causes me to "not be ordered", hence its kind of a cyclical problem. But its ok, if there is one thing ive learned this semester its that once youve learned to accept the fact that you just suck, its easier on you when you inevitably fail.

It would be much wise to retake (like I said) a few classes and give yourself some breathing room. I don't like you enough to take the time to crunch the numbers (again) but trust me when I say that getting As from now on will not have as great an effect as will retaking Cs for As.

Don't really care if you like me or not. Also I will retake some classes but will try to do as well as I can with the coursework I have left and maybe in a post-bac further down the road. If I can pull my GPA to a 3.2-3.3 with a solid 30+ MCAT I may apply for an SMP at that point but im not sure yet.

 

[DocGodfather]

Before you make a post about how awful your life is,why not start acting like a mature adult? You need to decide if you want to be successful, or if you want to ditch classes and smoke marijuana with your buddies. Becoming a doctor is a privilege and not a right. If you are failing classes like econ and bio statistics, then you should reconsider what you want to do for a career. You should be grateful that you have the opportunity to attend a university in the United States.

How many doctors do know know fail classes and do drugs? It takes a lot of hard work and dedication. And I hate to break it to you, but you're not looking good for DO schools, which you'd be lucky to even apply to. Think about what you want to do with your life and man up. If you don't want to work hard in school, then let someone else take your seat in those classes, who would actually show up and do the work.

 

[MedPR]

I completely disagree, you need a 34 mcat with a 3.2 gpa? You should take a look at the underdog threads.. Im thinking high 20s to 30 with a 3.2. I doubt many people that get a 34 on the MCAT end up going to DO school, most people seem to prefer MD over DO. Dr. Willy got several interviews with a 3.0 gpa (actually I think it was a bit lower) and 33 mcat. So I would think with a 3.2 gpa you could prob get around a 30 + or -2 to have a decent shot at DO. But Dr. Willy is a baller, and sadly we can't all be ballers.

Yes, it's definitely possible to get into DO with 27 and a 3.2. Do you know why they are called underdogs? Because acceptance with a 3.2 and 27 isn't probable. I know someone who got into an MD with a 3.1 and a 31, yet we all tell SDN posters that those stats won't get them into MD.

As someone who is near the bottom of the DO applicant pool for next year, I don't want to dabble in possible, I want to do what I can to have a good chance of matriculating.

Edit: 3.1/31 got this person into a US MD straight out of undergrad. They weren't published, had no political connections, and also are not a URM.

 

[blue0rchid]

OP, I think you need to see a therapist, get your outlook in life straight and positive again.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

OP, I think you need to see a therapist, get your outlook in life straight and positive again.

Unless you have a magic wand that could wave away all my grades then I have no reason to be happy or positive. Tell me what exactly im supposed to be positive about? For skipping classes, doing drugs like an idiot, and ending up failing some? Your right, I should go sing in a meadow.

How many doctors do know know fail classes and do drugs? It takes a lot of hard work and dedication. And I hate to break it to you, but you're not looking good for DO schools, which you'd be lucky to even apply to. Think about what you want to do with your life and man up. If you don't want to work hard in school, then let someone else take your seat in those classes, who would actually show up and do the work.

I said it was my fault. Obviously I shouldn't have screwed up so much and I should have been more responsible.

And I also said that I knew I wasn't even competitive for DO schools and I never downplayed their legitimacy. Moreover, I don't go to school in the States, as I mentioned already, I go to school in Canada. This is a problem because the DO degree exists only in the States so there are no docs at my hospital who are DOs which means I can't really shadow any.

Its just that ive failed and I hate myself for letting it happen. I can't do anything about the past at this point. I was trying to stay positive in hopes that maybe I could still recover even after failing classes and having bad grades. However, its pretty evident that at this point, its pretty much hopeless.

Initially I wanted to be competitive enough for Columbia which used to be my dream school. Then after I screwed up I was shooting for mid-lower tier schools like BU, Stony Brook, Tulane, Drexel, etc. Now im struggling to get into DO schools. Whats the next level after this so that I can at least prepare myself? Caribbean? Nursing? Paramedic? McDs?

 

[DocGodfather]

Unless you have a magic wand that could wave away all my grades then I have no reason to be happy or positive. Tell me what exactly im supposed to be positive about? For skipping classes, doing drugs like an idiot, and ending up failing some? Your right, I should go sing in a meadow.

I said it was my fault. Obviously I shouldn't have screwed up so much and I should have been more responsible.

And I also said that I knew I wasn't even competitive for DO schools and I never downplayed their legitimacy. Moreover, I don't go to school in the States, as I mentioned already, I go to school in Canada. This is a problem because the DO degree exists only in the States so there are no docs at my hospital who are DOs which means I can't really shadow any.

Its just that ive failed and I hate myself for letting it happen. I can't do anything about the past at this point. I was trying to stay positive in hopes that maybe I could still recover even after failing classes and having bad grades. However, its pretty evident that at this point, its pretty much hopeless.

Initially I wanted to be competitive enough for Columbia which used to be my dream school. Then after I screwed up I was shooting for mid-lower tier schools like BU, Stony Brook, Tulane, Drexel, etc. Now im struggling to get into DO schools. Whats the next level after this so that I can at least prepare myself? Caribbean? Nursing? Paramedic? McDs?

I hate to break it to you, but there is no level right now, not even Caribbean schools, that will take you. Like I said before, you have to man up. Seriously dude, why are you so unmotivated? Do you hang out with people that just smoke and do nothing all day or something? It's a new year coming up, and a new semester/quarter. Again, be a man. Retake the classes you failed, and start repairing your records. I read a post about someone on here that had a GPA barely above a 2.0. Now, that person is in medical school because he aced all the classes he retook, and did great with all the med school prereqs.

The key is what you really want to do. If you don't want to sacrifice things that are hindering your lack of motivation, then you won't get anywhere in life. Retake some of those F's and turn them into A's now. Stop complaining and just do it. Report back on this thread after your winter quarter/spring semester is over.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

It just kills me to know that I actually failed classes. Whats the point anymore? My grades were crap to begin with and now I've actually FAILED classes. I am a true failure and I will never forgive myself for destroying my chances for MD schools and putting myself in such a weak position for med school in general. Med schools are going to look at my application and just be like "failure". Im not even sure if they will look at a transcript as bad as mine.

How the hell am I supposed to even get to a 3.0 now? I mean holy crap! I can't even get a freaking 3.0 GPA! Im not even sure how I got into college or why I deserve to be here. Im just a f*cking idiot.

I still can't believe that after 3 years of poor grades, I transfer to a new school to try and do better and end up failing. This feeling hurts me so much I feel like I'm going to explode. Ive just realized how big Ive screwed up.

Even if I were to turn EVERYTHING around now, its at the point where I'll be lucky to get a DO or Carib acceptance. I f*cking hate myself. Whatever, its pretty clear I'm not going to be a doctor at this point. If anyone wants to shoot me in the face to put me out of my misery, please go for it, I don't even care anymore, f*ck life.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

So if I want to apply MD thats going to take 3 years of coursework on top of the year and a half I have left at school?

I mean what if I was able to get my GPA around a 3-3.1 by the time I graduate or maybe take a few extra courses after to bring it up that high and do an SMP?

Even though I only have a year and a half left, would showing a strong upward trend and having a really good MCAT score matter or would that not be something thats really looked at?

I plan on doing a masters in cancer research before med school and I want to work for some medical non-profits abroad as well as do some research in public health.

That said its not about applying DO or not. I will apply DO but I just wanted to know at this point if all my hypothetical goals were achieved and I had the best application I could, would or would I not be able to be competitive for a US/Cdn MD (I am studying at UBC but am a US Citizen/Cdn PR)? But I think at this point its pretty clear that MD isn't going to happen so I will learn to accept it just as another one of my several screw ups in life and continue on. I mean to know that I could have had that option if I was a little less stupid in life frankly sucks. so onto DO:

So for the AACOMAS should I retake all classes that I have a C on? Cuz thats like an additional 2 years of coursework and I might as well try MD if I'm taking that much extra time being in school. Should I just retake classes that I have VERY bad grades in and maybe some of my pre-reqs (retaking classes is such a waste of time and money so I do want to limit how much of that I waste)? Could I just take a bunch of upper level bio and chem classes instead?

As for the MCAT Im now aiming for a 27 right?

So should I stop shadowing MDs and request to shadow DOs?

Any other ECs for DO that I should look into?

Don't finish your current program. Switch at the end of this semester and change your classes. Stay in undergrad a few more years. You may need to take a loan - welcome to the club - but it is an investment.

Make sure you can take all the med school pre-reqs (as a minor or whatever).
It usually doesn't matter what your program is. Adm. committees want a broad variety of matriculants. And for crissake, get some documentable life experience.
Stop thinking about "what ifs" and fantasising about some goddamn magical wand. In reality only hard work, self-denial, abstinence from recreational drugs will guide you to success.

Re-read Socalpremedguy's post date Dec. 11. Nobody here can erase your past, do the work for you, pull you out of your through or save you from youself. Whining will not help. Ask yourself: "Do I want to be a doctor?" and "am I willing to get better and do all the hard work?" Get the book I suggested. It is based on CBT and will teach you to put a damper on your negative emotions. Ruminating the negative, feeling sorry for yourself and whining will only make your condition worse. By indulging (yes, indulging) in self-pitty and sadness, you are forming neural pathways which will eventually become hard-wired into your brain, condemning you to a lifetime of mediocrity. Get some professional help. Until you "change your your brain", you will never be cut-out to be a physician and will not be able to move on.
I hope I made myself clear enough.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

Stop whining!

 

[Kadava Reviva]

Stop whining!!

 

[Kadava Reviva]

!!!!!Stop whining!!!!!

 

[tpwelie34]

Wow, I usually just read these threads and don't post but wow...

Every single one of your posts basically says the same thing over and over. You might as well copy and paste any one of your posts to respond to any of the advice that has been given to you.

You continue to just say that you have messed up your life and your dream of becoming a MD. Again, of course most people will consider MD's as being "better" than DO's. What is your goal? Do you just want to have the M.D. title next to your name or do you want to help people? Either DO's or MD's can help the same patient equally effectively.

Many people have told you that the DO path could very well be the path for you. The most efficient way to get into a DO school is to take advantage of their grade-replacement policy. You refute this by saying that it is a waste of time and money to retake classes that you have already taken before. If you received such poor grades in these classes that you should retake, did you not perhaps consider that you did not really master the class that well and it would in fact not be such a waste of time to actually learn the material right and boost up your GPA tremendously fast?

 

[TriagePreMed]

I came back from 4 years with a 2.7 to a 3.1 cGPA (3.6 sGPA) after taking 70 units of post-bacc work. It will not be easy, but it is definitely possible. You need to get your issues sorted out before you attempt to do this.