Sea World Death

[lyndaelyzoo]

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I just read that a trainer was killed by a killer whale at Sea World!!! Makes me feel sorry for those animals that are forced to perform unnatural acts exclusively for the purpose of frivolous entertainment. There also seems to be two conflicting stories about what actually transpired. One scenario involved the whale grabbing the trainer and trashing her around in the middle of a performance and another story says that a woman fell into the tank. Guess the truth will be revealed soon, but either way, it is a sad story both for the whale and the trainer.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/02/24/killer.whale.trainer.death/

 

[DVMDream]

Wow that is really sad. It seems as though that is not the first or even second time that same whale has killed someone. Very sad for both the trainer and the whale.

 

[Willowhand]

I agree, and I feel pretty sorry for the trainer and her family too. Being in a generation where animal welfare awareness is greater than those before us, I think we sometimes tend to forget that there are still people around who were raised to believe that exploiting animals to satisfy human whims is ok. Lack of education and experience contributes to the problem as well.

I am hoping that the Sea World incident helps bring the captive cetacean and other animal welfare issues to public attention. I also hope that the trainer's family receives support and sympathy during this tragic time in their lives.

 

[sumstorm]

I agree, and I feel pretty sorry for the trainer and her family too. Being in a generation where animal welfare awareness is greater than those before us, I think we sometimes tend to forget that there are still people around who were raised to believe that exploiting animals to satisfy human whims is ok. Lack of education and experience contributes to the problem as well.

I am hoping that the Sea World incident helps bring the captive cetacean and other animal welfare issues to public attention. I also hope that the trainer's family receives support and sympathy during this tragic time in their lives.

Are you willing to cease supporting the exploition of animals for your own benefit and personal whims? or do you also oppose keeping animals captive as pets and food sources?

This isn't a 'simple' situation, in terms of this tragedy or in terms of the uses of animals in captivity. While I don't agree with everything that goes on, I also don't delude myself into thinking I know the full perspective, including that a fair number of these animals that are held in captivity would be dead otherwise and/or that training animals in captivity actually reduces stereotypy and increases the health of the animals. I am confident that the trainer knew the potental risks, and while it is tragic, it was a career choice. Just as we, as vets, make a career choice to work with animals primarily in captivity.

 

[peachy3214]

Are you willing to cease supporting the exploition of animals for your own benefit and personal whims? or do you also oppose keeping animals captive as pets and food sources?

I think the point is that killer whales are not pets and we don't eat them. Therefore the only reason to have them in captivity is for entertainment purposes. Keeping an animal solely for our amusement is wrong. I don't agree with the argument that keeping cats and dogs etc. is the same thing. Domestic pets have been shown to receive the same emotional benefits living with us that we get from them. The whale does not benefit from being put in a tiny tank. No matter how you twist it there is a HUGE difference between putting healthy wild animals in captivity and keeping a dog or cat. The point is that the animal is WILD. Your pug or little bichon is not. Maybe it was thousands of years ago, in which case I would say you had no right to pick one off the street and lock it in your home, but thats not the case today. If tigers are some how domesticated tomorrow and will cuddle up in bed with you AWESOME! throw a collar on it and call it a day. But as it stands anyone removing an animal from its home and then expecting it to be "trained" and domesticated is a fool. This is a question of animal welfare and an animals RIGHT(ooooooo dirty word) to live in the environment they were intended to live in.

ps. this was not meant as an attack on you twelvetigers just that argument.🙂

 

[DVMDream]

I think the point is that killer whales are not pets and we don't eat them. Therefore the only reason to have them in captivity is for entertainment purposes. Keeping an animal solely for our amusement is wrong. I don't agree with the argument that keeping cats and dogs etc. is the same thing. Domestic pets have been shown to receive the same emotional benefits living with us that we get from them. The whale does not benefit from being put in a tiny tank. No matter how you twist it there is a HUGE difference between putting healthy wild animals in captivity and keeping a dog or cat. The point is that the animal is WILD. Your pug or little bichon is not. Maybe it was thousands of years ago, in which case I would say you had no right to pick one off the street and lock it in your home, but thats not the case today. If tigers are some how domesticated tomorrow and will cuddle up in bed with you AWESOME! throw a collar on it and call it a day. But as it stands anyone removing an animal from its home and then expecting it to be "trained" and domesticated is a fool. This is a question of animal welfare and an animals RIGHT(ooooooo dirty word) to live in the environment they were intended to live in.

ps. this was not meant as an attack on you twelvetigers just that argument.🙂

I do not think sumstrom's point was in grabbing a wild orca out of the ocean and throwing it into a tank and then expecting to train it. Most of these animals have been raised in captivity (or were rehabilitated and became too attached/used to humans) and it would be bad to attempt to the put them back into the wild because they would more than likely not survive and it would be better for the animal's welfare to actually keep it in captivity. And part of the way they keep these animals (dolphins and whales and other performance animals) sane is by stimulating them. Believe it or not quite a few of the "tricks" you see these animals do are things they would do for fun, exercise, or even to obtain food in the wild. (Example: dolphins will occasionaly beach themselves to catch fish.) Also it sounds like from this article that this particular whale did not have a trainer because he was deemed dangerous and the fact that the trainer was in the water was probably already a bad idea (still undetermined if the trainer fell in or was already in).

 

[lmscout]

If you think about it, in the news I do hear occasional reports of dogs killing babies (and humans) - there was one in the news recently where a herd of dogs attacked and killed an elderly woman out on a walk, and then her husband later on.

One of the oldest horsepeople around - Connie Whatever her last name who was in her nineties fell off her horse and died.

I hear accounts occasionally of people dying from accidents involving horses.

IT HAPPENS. This is a very rare and sad event, but we all die one way or another...some people die from stupid freak accidents that in retrospect shouldn't have happened. (People not wearing helmets, not paying attention, etc.) I think the best we can do is to try to learn from their mistakes to avoid more accidental deaths.

This whale incident was a very rare one. There are other deaths caused by animals that happen more frequently...this is just a big deal because it is a whale...

STRICTLY my opinion...

 

[Willowhand]

Are you willing to cease supporting the exploition of animals for your own benefit and personal whims? or do you also oppose keeping animals captive as pets and food sources?

This isn't a 'simple' situation, in terms of this tragedy or in terms of the uses of animals in captivity. While I don't agree with everything that goes on, I also don't delude myself into thinking I know the full perspective, including that a fair number of these animals that are held in captivity would be dead otherwise and/or that training animals in captivity actually reduces stereotypy and increases the health of the animals. I am confident that the trainer knew the potental risks, and while it is tragic, it was a career choice. Just as we, as vets, make a career choice to work with animals primarily in captivity.

Sumstorm, I never meant to present it as a simple situation. The ethical side of human interactions with animals (well, with most of the rest of the planet too) is rarely simple, and many decisions that are ethical by one perspective are not by another. With regards to this particular situation, I personally oppose holding killer whales and other cetaceans in captivity because we are not able to provide an adequate environment for them to live in. I have come to this conclusion based on my own studies of cetacean biology and through discussions with experienced marine mammal biologists and naturalists.

We have certainly made progress by ceasing to capture wild killer whale calves and sell them to aquariums, and I think the next logical step is to discontinue captive breeding programs used to propagate aquarium dolphins. Since reintroduction seems unlikely to be successful, I think keeping animals currently in aquariums is acceptable. I also think training and interacting with them is appropriate since it facilitates veterinary care, safety procedures, etc. and is a form of enrichment in a comparatively spartan habitat. And provided the trainers have reason to believe that performing for an audience does not put unreasonable stress on the animals, I think the potential for public education outweighs the negatives. Observation and research opportunities are other positives to interacting with the animals in captivity. And when the current generation of captive killer whales dies, we would no longer be in the position of struggling to care for dolphins whose needs are beyond our capacity to meet.

This is a short summary of how I feel about the issue of captive killer whales. I chose to discuss them because of the subject at hand, but I think any animal welfare issue really needs more time and a more fluent communication medium to do them justice 🙂 The matters surrounding the human use of animals vary greatly from situation to situation with each deserving its own consideration. My opinions about the use of laboratory animals, pets, livestock, etc. are not addressed in the above paragraphs.

 

[stephi08]

The trainer was not already in the water. She either fell or he pulled her in. Tilikum was deemed to violent for trainer interaction so trainers were not allowed in the water with him. He is a large male and things like this unfortunately just happen when you work with large animals.

For those that may think otherwise, in the US, marine mammals are never caught and placed in captivity (thanks to the Marine mammal protection act). The ones in captivity were either caught before the act, bred in captivity or rescued, rehabilitated and then the government NOT Seaworld deemed the marine mammal unreleasable. It is important to have them in captivity in order to educate the public. They also act as a sentinel species in order to get the public interested in protecting our oceans and thus all marine life.

As stated above, many behaviors seen in shows stimulate the animal's mind. These shows keep the animal enriched and these behaviors are what you would see in the wild. Veterinarians constantly observe the animals and deem whether they are fit for performance. The animals are never forced to perform. You cannot force an animal that size to something it does not want to do. The animals are also fed even if they do not want to perform that day. These animals are better cared for than most pets around the world. Unfortunately, animal rights activists try to make the public believe otherwise. (By the way, most vet schools do not want to accept students that support animal rights...vet students should support animal welfare and make sure they have all the facts before they pick a side over an issue such as this!)

This is a very sad situation but trainers know the risks when the take on the job. They love what they do and all the animals with which they get to work. I will be praying for the trainer's friends and family.

 

[DVMDream]

The trainer was not already in the water. She either fell or he pulled her in. Tilikum was deemed to violent for trainer interaction so trainers were not allowed in the water with him. He is a large male and things like this unfortunately just happen when you work with large animals.

Yeah they have updated the article and included a video now. At first the article was very unclear as to where the trainer was, but it now seems that she was most likely pulled into the water. It is unfortunate but I agree that it is a risk you take when working with large animals, but still very sad and my thoughts are with the SeaWorld staff (who lost a friend) and the trainer's family.

 

[jpeterman13]

...this is just a big deal because it is a whale...

I agree 100%. and stephi08, great post! It is unfortunate for both the whale and, obviously, the trainer (and her family). A complete abolition of captive animals is a mistake I think. They serve to educate people and to inspire them to make a difference in the lives of animals of all types.

...if this thread mutates into another animal rights/animal welfare debate, I'll scream.

 

[168135]

...if this thread mutates into another animal rights/animal welfare debate, I'll scream.

Lol, you'd have a hard time becoming a vet if you screamed everytime you've heard animal rights/welfare debate.

I have a friend who is fascinated with sharks and she's been keeping me up to date on the recent great white attacks. If you decide to swim in an area where sharks are spotted, there is a risk you'll get attacked. Deal with it 😛

Dogs and cats have been domesticated for thousands of years. You can't just capture a whale and expect it's offspring to be domesticated... just doesn't work that way.

Has anyone here gone whale watching or swam with the dolphins? IMO, it's so much cooler and more educational then sticking them in tanks and watching them jump through hoops.

 

[racccjlm]

Has anyone here gone whale watching or swam with the dolphins? IMO, it's so much cooler and more educational then sticking them in tanks and watching them jump through hoops.

I was involved in a baleen whale abundance cruise last summer...SO much cooler than seeing them in "kiddie pools." IMO it's almost a crime to keep such large, intelligent, and migratory animals in captivity. No amount of "enrichment" is going to be stimulating enough.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

On the Sea World website, it states that it can collect some of the animals from the wild with specific government permits. Although most of them are captive-bred, apparently they are still collecting some of them from the wild.😱 I understand the need for stimulation to avoid stereotypies in captive animals, but just seeing those whales in those unstimulating environments really bothers me. I do think that some of these animals need to be more naturally exhibited for public education, not the contrived, artificial entertainment that exists in these shows. This type of entertainment seems more like a circus than an educational zoological institution. To me, this type of show sends the wrong message to the public; that the purpose of these animals is for human entertainment. I definitely feel that zoos are important in education, research, and conservation. They have evolved from animal menageries and barred cages into conservation centers. It seems that maybe aquariums are behind in this evolutionary process. But man, just seeing that whale in the tank....

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

I was involved in a baleen whale abundance cruise last summer...SO much cooler than seeing them in "kiddie pools." IMO it's almost a crime to keep such large, intelligent, and migratory animals in captivity. No amount of "enrichment" is going to be stimulating enough.

I agree....that pool needs to be surrounded with crime scene tape! Maybe this will be the "poster whale" for raising awareness about the problems with keeping these wild animals as captive circus performers.🙁

 

[stephi08]

On the Sea World website, it states that it can collect some of the animals from the wild with specific government permits. Although most of them are captive-bred, apparently they are still collecting some of them from the wild.😱 I understand the need for stimulation to avoid stereotypies in captive animals, but just seeing those whales in those unstimulating environments really bothers me. I do think that some of these animals need to be more naturally exhibited for public education, not the contrived, artificial entertainment that exists in these shows. This type of entertainment seems more like a circus than an educational zoological institution. To me, this type of show sends the wrong message to the public; that the purpose of these animals is for human entertainment. I definitely feel that zoos are important in education, research, and conservation. They have evolved from animal menageries and barred cages into conservation centers. It seems that maybe aquariums are behind in this evolutionary process. But man, just seeing that whale in the tank....

They CANNOT and DO NOT collect marine mammals from the wild. Look up the Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972. I believe they can collect various fish and sharks from the wild. No dolphins, whales, sea lions, seals, manatees or polar bears have been collected from they wild. The only reason wild animals have been placed in captivity is if they were injured or sick. The chosen park then rehabs the animal (however less than 10% of stranded bottlenose survive and statistics are less for other species). If the animal survives rehab, the government comes in and decides if the animal is able to be released. There are very strick rules on how this is to be done.

Although aquariums may not seem stimulating these parks work very hard to keep the animals stimulated. During shows, they cannot give the animals toys because they can throw them out of the pool (liability if they hit someone). Also, if you have ever been to these shows, they focus on educating the audience about the animals while entertaining them at the same time. If there was not entertainment, most people would not pay the $50+ per person to go see the animals. Also, there are many reasons most aquariums do not look more natural but mainly is due to a money issue.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

Glad to know that they cannot collect mammals from the wild. The website just said "animals". I have been to one of those shows and don't want to go to another one!! At least in zoos, they don't have elephants rolling over on command and people still pay money to go visit zoos.

 

[turnandburn]

^ So does that mean your issue is with the tricks they are "forced" to perform rather than the fact they are in captivity?

 

[jpeterman13]

Lol, you'd have a hard time becoming a vet if you screamed everytime you've heard animal rights/welfare debate.

thanks for the tip. the reason that i said that is because with one search, I could find at least 5 different threads regarding the topic. 😉

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

I guess what bothers me is that the wild animals are exploited for frivolous entertainment purposes, confined to small and unstimulating tanks, and trained as circus performers. It just seems like the Ringling Bros on water and don't think that the audience gets much of a conservation message from the circus.

 

[Chapelle]

.

 

[dyachei]

No one has brought up the education side of this, either. Whales and dolphins kept in captivity allow the public to interact with them (at least by seeing them) which brings them to the forefront of their minds when talking about whaling, etc. It makes people act as if they have some stake in laws concerning whales instead of abusing them as resources. it's easy to say save the whales now, but it makes it more personal if you saw killer whales in captivity (this is more true with whale-watching trips, but that's another story). I guess I'm trying to say that they are more accesible to the public when they are kept in captivity. Also, most places that keep animals like this attempt to teach the public something about them, either by plaques, signs, etc or with their shows.

 

[nyanko]

No one has brought up the education side of this, either. Whales and dolphins kept in captivity allow the public to interact with them (at least by seeing them) which brings them to the forefront of their minds when talking about whaling, etc.

This is exactly the point that I was going to make. It isn't solely "frivolous entertainment purposes" that these animals and those in zoos are kept and bred for. Zoos and aquariums like this also stress education of the general population. We in the animal care field can understand the issues surrounding the problems some of these animals have in the wild, due to our educations and general awareness. However, the large majority of the public is not going to understand or care without being able to feel like they have personally "connected" with the animals.

edit: I have volunteered at the Orlando Sea World with the orcas before and feel awful for the trainers and for the community. Tilikum has been an issue before, and as mentioned nobody was actually allowed in the water with him. However the other time he killed someone it was a member of the general public who had snuck in after hours, IIRC.

 

[ckgilabert]

i agree with the later posts about how we are learning from these animals and in my opinion, i think zoos, aquariums, wildlife parks are beneficial. not just about teaching us about animals, but that they also help with keeping species alive. I went on a tour at the san diego wild animal park, and that place is just amazing. they try to keep everything as natural as possible and they're involved in reproduction. the saddest part of the tour....is seeing one of the last white rhinos in the world. there's only 3 left, they're old and they cant reproduce.

i know people have issues with 'living museums' and that these animals aren't living naturally....but some of these zoos (some, NOT all) are doing the right thing.


I feel bad that the trainer died....thats just horrible. and i think we have to acknowledge that it's these animal trainers that have led us to learn more about animals. i just saw a gorilla give birth on animal planet....she would push her pregnant belly against the cage so that the doctors could do an ultrasound!

 

[168135]

i agree with the later posts about how we are learning from these animals and in my opinion, i think zoos, aquariums, wildlife parks are beneficial. not just about teaching us about animals, but that they also help with keeping species alive. I went on a tour at the san diego wild animal park, and that place is just amazing. they try to keep everything as natural as possible and they're involved in reproduction. the saddest part of the tour....is seeing one of the last white rhinos in the world. there's only 3 left, they're old and they cant reproduce.

What bothers me is that these tanks at Sea World are no where close to being "natural". Last time I went to a wildlife park, they had a cougar in a cage slightly bigger than the room I'm in, just pacing back and forth. Yes they give homes to injured wildlife who would otherwise die in the wild, and yes, it's cool and educational to see these guys up close, but darn, it was a sin to see it in such a tiny cage. If my money isn't going towards getting it a more natural habitat, then they're not getting my money ever again.

 

[TurtleLover]

I guess what bothers me is that the wild animals are exploited for frivolous entertainment purposes, confined to small and unstimulating tanks, and trained as circus performers. It just seems like the Ringling Bros on water and don't think that the audience gets much of a conservation message from the circus.

you have obviously never been to Sea World Orlando or opened your eyes when you are there. I am from Florida, have been there countless number of times, and my boyfriend works there and I can tell you that they have a HUGE education department. Yes, an ENTIRE DEPARTMENT dedicated to education. Every exhibit has an educator there to teach the public and answer any questions you may have, even at the Shamu show. And most of the exhibits do mimic natural environments

The dolphin cove, go look at the underwater viewing area, its very naturalistic. The Alligators, the flamingos, the turtles, the seals and sea lions, the new Manta exhibit with sting rays and sharks, the manatee exhibit, the penguins with SNOW in FL, etc.

Yea the big tank shows like the Clyde and Seamore show, the Shamu show, and the Dolphin show aren't naturalistic tanks because yes, they are used to entertainment....however before the Shamu show, they push conservation, if you paid attention to that.

But everytime I am walking around that park, I see and hear educators talking about the animals, videos playing, and people listening and learning. So don't go around saying its a circus at Sea World, because it is FAR from it

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

Wow,
Didn't expect that type of response. I live in Florida and have been to Sea World. No need to get defensive, I am just responding to my perception of the animal shows there. Wow...

 

[Electrophile]

you have obviously never been to Sea World Orlando or opened your eyes when you are there. I am from Florida, have been there countless number of times, and my boyfriend works there and I can tell you that they have a HUGE education department. Yes, an ENTIRE DEPARTMENT dedicated to education. Every exhibit has an educator there to teach the public and answer any questions you may have, even at the Shamu show. And most of the exhibits do mimic natural environments

The dolphin cove, go look at the underwater viewing area, its very naturalistic. The Alligators, the flamingos, the turtles, the seals and sea lions, the new Manta exhibit with sting rays and sharks, the manatee exhibit, the penguins with SNOW in FL, etc.

Yea the big tank shows like the Clyde and Seamore show, the Shamu show, and the Dolphin show aren't naturalistic tanks because yes, they are used to entertainment....however before the Shamu show, they push conservation, if you paid attention to that.

But everytime I am walking around that park, I see and hear educators talking about the animals, videos playing, and people listening and learning. So don't go around saying its a circus at Sea World, because it is FAR from it

I've only been to the San Diego and San Antonio Sea Worlds, but if it's not a circus...why the amusement park rides?

 

[stephi08]

The amusement park rides are just there to please a wider audience. That way they can keep more people entertained throughout a day's visit. Turtlelover is completely correct. SeaWorld is extremely dedicated to education and conservation. They may seem they are all about money but have you ever considered the salaries of the trainers and other workeres? They are minimal. The parks work hard to make lots of money because it takes an enormous amount to care for these animals. There are no shortcuts when it comes to their medical care. They get top quality everything! Even their food is restaurant quality.

SeaWorld is far from a circus. Those who think otherwise have never had the experience working in that field.

 

[TurtleLover]

I've only been to the San Diego and San Antonio Sea Worlds, but if it's not a circus...why the amusement park rides?

I don't recall amusement rides at any circus I've gone too, however, it helps to draw the people in of course. I'm not saying its not being used for entertainment, because it definitely is. However, its not solely a circus, there is education in there....unlike what you get at Barnum and Bailey. And only a few animals are putting on shows....most other animals in the park are there for educational purposes or they were rescued and rehabilitated and cannot be released, like many of their manatees, dolphins, turtles, etc.

 

[Willowhand]

the saddest part of the tour....is seeing one of the last white rhinos in the world. there's only 3 left, they're old and they cant reproduce.

Hang on... I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I think there more than three white rhinos left in the world. Last I heard there were several thousand. Are you referring to a subspecies?

 

[Chapelle]

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[Electrophile]

The amusement park rides are just there to please a wider audience. That way they can keep more people entertained throughout a day's visit. Turtlelover is completely correct. SeaWorld is extremely dedicated to education and conservation. They may seem they are all about money but have you ever considered the salaries of the trainers and other workeres? They are minimal. The parks work hard to make lots of money because it takes an enormous amount to care for these animals. There are no shortcuts when it comes to their medical care. They get top quality everything! Even their food is restaurant quality.

SeaWorld is far from a circus. Those who think otherwise have never had the experience working in that field.

I do not doubt their care. But I have yet to see rollercoasters or water rides at the San Diego Zoo or the National Aquarium. My point being I don't doubt they budget money toward care and education. But why spend money on the maintenance for stuff that can be found at Six Flags? If you're going to be for education and conservation, be for education and conservation.

 

[stephi08]

Unlike most zoo animals, orcas live shorter lives in captivity than in the wild. That alone indicates that the captive environments that they are provided with at this point are inadequate. Are efforts being made to expand exhibits or provide a more suitable captive environment?

I think SeaWorld is like T.I.G.E.R.S. in a way. It's run by people who are probably passionate about conservation and education but I disagree with their approach because I think it compromises animal welfare too much in order to provide entertainment for crowds. In the process, I don't think people always get the right message.

And again, the whole dolphin procurement issue is pretty shady.

Unfortunately at most parks, efforts are not being made to provide larger and more suitable captive environments. It would just cost way too much money! However, most parks have far less than the number of animals than their habitat is said to be able to accomodate. The regulations for habitats will say that X number of dolphins can live in an enclosure but many believe this number to be too high and never fill the habitats to capacity.

As far as the the dolphin procurment issue...this is not shady. I'm not sure why you think so??? I have stated over and over above how this works in today's world. This is very strictly governed by NOAA and the USDA. Everything these parks do with their animals is goverened by these federal organizations and I can guarantee they will be looking into this issue. Unfortunately, the general public and veterinary community is gravely mis-informed of the workings of the marine mammal business in the U.S.

 

[Tiktaalik]

The amusement park rides are just there to please a wider audience. That way they can keep more people entertained throughout a day's visit. Turtlelover is completely correct. SeaWorld is extremely dedicated to education and conservation. They may seem they are all about money but have you ever considered the salaries of the trainers and other workeres? They are minimal. The parks work hard to make lots of money because it takes an enormous amount to care for these animals. There are no shortcuts when it comes to their medical care. They get top quality everything! Even their food is restaurant quality.

SeaWorld is far from a circus. Those who think otherwise have never had the experience working in that field.

Thank you for speaking up and saying what I wanted to say better than I could have said it. The "entertainment" portion of these parks is a frontend that helps fund research, education and conservation efforts, and the point of the shows is to raise the public's awareness of the animals and the problems they face. Some of this entertainment also serves the dual purpose of entertaining animals that cannot be released into the wild. Yes, some of it (like roller coasters) may seem frivolous, but the public's attention must be maintained somehow in order to get funding and transmit the message.

 

[Chapelle]

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[DVMDream]

Raise ticket prices.

In this economy? 😕 I bet they are already losing money because of the economy, raising ticket prices would only make it worse.

 

[Electrophile]

As far as the the dolphin procurment issue...this is not shady. I'm not sure why you think so??? I have stated over and over above how this works in today's world. This is very strictly governed by NOAA and the USDA. Everything these parks do with their animals is goverened by these federal organizations and I can guarantee they will be looking into this issue. Unfortunately, the general public and veterinary community is gravely mis-informed of the workings of the marine mammal business in the U.S.

What is your opinion on the documentary The Cove?

 

[Tiktaalik]

If animal welfare was a priority though, could they not redo their budget to allocate more money to improving exhibits? Raise ticket prices, hire more volunteers, get rid of a rollercoaster, etc. Responsible zoos first find the money to properly care for their animals and only then bring them in. Ringling has a center for elephant conservation too, that doesn't make them an educational/conservation organization with an entertainment front.

I have no doubt regulations are in place to protect marine mammals in the US. Still, wild caught dolphins from drive fisheries are being imported for our aquariums and that is unacceptable.

The park has to attract visitors to stay open, or they won't have any animals at all. If it's a choice between habitats that follow the letter of regulation but are imperfect or no aquarium, the park is going to choose the former option.

 

[stephi08]

If animal welfare was a priority though, could they not redo their budget to allocate more money to improving exhibits? Raise ticket prices, hire more volunteers, get rid of a rollercoaster, etc. Responsible zoos first find the money to properly care for their animals and only then bring them in. Ringling has a center for elephant conservation too, that doesn't make them an educational/conservation organization with an entertainment front.

I have no doubt regulations are in place to protect marine mammals in the US. Still, wild caught dolphins from drive fisheries are being imported for our aquariums and that is unacceptable.

I agree with you Chapelle. They should find ways to allocate more money. But the federal government governs these animals and they say the enclosure are adequate. Right now, there is just not enough money to redo all the enclosures. Plus there is no where to put the animals during construction. Moving them would be way to dangerous and probably result in some deaths of the animals. If you think Seaworld has bad enclosures check out parks around the world.

And to clarify...Seaworld and the parks that are accredited in the US do not import marine mammals. This was something that some animal rights activists started saying but is not true. They used to do so and then the government changed things. All animals in captivity in the US now and for the future are either bred there or rescued and deemed non-releasable.

 

[Perfbird]

Why can't the big parks push conservation and education without having to use live animals in shows? I understand that it drives the "ooh" factor home, but really - the price the animals are paying is not worth what people are learning. I understand the Orcas that 'must' be in captivity because they have imprinted or have some severe medical issue that would prevent them from surviving in the wild, but what gets me is that these theme parks BREED their animals, which is unnecessary and not in the best interest of the animal's welfare.

These animals are not suited to live in captivity in any way, shape, or form. Studies done have estimated that female Orcas in the wild live an average of 50 years and can reach 80 and above. Males average about 30 and upwards of 50 and 60 are commonly seen.

The oldest whale in captivity right now is 43, many do not live past their teens, and most calves born die. The average lifespan for captive Orcas is 16 years. No one can sit here and tell me that Orcas benefit at all from living in captivity, and how can anyone justify keeping this species captive when it obviously suffers to an extreme?

No matter how good of veterinary care or how much enrichment they get it does not justify breeding these animals to live in captivity because their life would still be better if they were left in their natural, wild habitat. Sure, you may be saving a whale from parasites by keeping it in captivity, but if that animal's lifespan is compromised by 75% that's an awful tradeoff. While tricks and training for shows is nice and may keep an Orca mentally engaged to an extent, the natural behaviors are not encouraged/replicated and the lack of most natural emotional behaviors far outweighs the benefits of training.

In the wild they have natural water conditions instead of concrete pools, they swim about 100 miles per day (and not in circles), they eat live and diverse prey, and they have natural social bonds. In captivity, they are in tiny concrete tanks, have chlorinated/chemically treated artificial salt water, forced to live with Orcas they may not have chosen to live with in the wild, and are fed dead fish with little dietary variety.

To me it is unfair (from an animal welfare standpoint) to deliberately breed these animals with the intent of keeping them in captivity (and frankly they are bred for revenue and no other reason). As hard as people might try to give the captive Orcas a nice life, it seems the negatives really overpower any positives, and these animals are best left in the wild.

http://www.orcahome.de/lifeexpectancy.htm
http://www.orcanetwork.org/nathist/biennial.pdf (section 4)
http://www.wdcs.org/submissions_bin/orcareport.pdf

 

[Chapelle]

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[Chapelle]

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[stephi08]

What is your opinion on the documentary The Cove?

I still have not seen the Cove but will say it was made by animal rights extremists. I do not always agree with Ric O'barry and really do not know if I want to see the film. O'Barry used to train flipper back before animals in captivity were cared for as they are today. He definitely saw things that were unacceptable but are no longer practices of marine mammal training and husbandry today.

I do not like that Japan has the mass dolphin slaughters but that is part of their culture. People in the US used to do so also. Eating marine mammal meat was a way of life until the government decided they didn't think marine mammals should be killed anymore. Maybe Japan will change their ways some day. I personally do not agree with the dolphin slaughters but think when animal rights people get involved, people don't always want to listen to their message. Therefore, it is unlikely Japan will change simply because of "the cove."

 

[Tiktaalik]

I don't think that's a choice they have to make though. They are not a non-profit. They can take some of the profit they are making and use it to provide a proper environment which should have been put in place before they even bought a single animal.

This isn't really how you'd want to run a business, even a nonprofit. If the park has no attractions, nobody will go, there will be no ticket sales, and no revenue. Few attractions with perfect environments will also result in low ticket sales. The best balance is one struck between environments created according to legal guidelines for animal welfare and additional attractions that serve to sell more tickets.

Let me be clear - I'm not saying that parks are housing animals in exhibits that cannot support them just to put in a roller coaster. That would be illegal and the park would be shut down. What I am saying is that the park cannot justify expanding an animal's enclosure much beyond their legal guidelines at the expense of other revenue generators without some confidence that these changes will result in increased ticket sales. Otherwise, the final result will be a net reduction of animal welfare, because the park's funding will decrease and they will lose the ability to maintain exhibits at or above the minimum legal standards.

 

[stephi08]

As I said before, it is still legal to import marine mammals if you have a permit according to this: (http://www.cnie.org/nle/crsreports/b...y/biodv-11.cfm)

"For the taking and importing of marine mammals for public display, permits will be issued only when [1] the effect of the take or importation on wild populations is considered, [2] the method of the taking is humane, [3] an institution is registered or licensed under the Animal Welfare Act (AWA), [4] the institution offers an education or conservation program based upon professionally recognized standards of the public display community, and [5] the institution maintains facilities that are open to the public on a regularly scheduled basis."

Am I missing something? Has there been a later amendment that changed this?

I have had experience with several accredited parks and they do not import. Even if it is technically legal, there are strict guidelines and applications in order to import. Most parks do not want to import because of the way the animals are acquired. Sometimes animals are imported but from other parks. Importing from other parks and exporting some of the US born animals improves the genetics of the animals bred in captivity. The accredited parks take pride in their conservation efforts and do not want to import from places that wild catch (such as Japan).

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

I agree with you completely Perfbird. Just because we can keep these species in captivity does not mean that we should. Some species should not be kept in captivity due to the fact that their lifestyles cannot be simulated in any artificial setting (unless you are going to confine thousands of miles of the ocean and have the animal shows there). Showcasing these animals as entertainers in concrete chlorinated tanks is sending the wrong message to the general public:these animals are here for our selfish enjoyment without any regard to their welfare. I am not saying that the keepers do not care, I am just saying that you could have the best vets, trainers, tanks, toys, whatever, and it will never meet the needs of certain species. They don't even look healthy with dorsal fins collapsed and swimming in circles all day. It just doesn't seem right to have these animals exploited.
As a high school teacher, I actually take my students on field trips to the zoo because I feel that the students would gain more appreciation of different species by actually seeing the animals themselves. However, there were no elephants rolling over on command and most of the animals had minimal contact with humans in an effort to mimic their natural environment as much as possible. And yet my students were still entertained.
Wild animals that cannot be maintained in an environment that simulates their natural surroundings should not be kept in captivity if it is causing stress to the animals. A sure indication of stress in an animal is the reduced lifespan of captive animals. So, how about some virtual reality Shamu shows? Wouldn't that be just as educational as the real thing if the real thing is not possible without causing the animal to suffer?

 

[spyisis]

Probably should read the whole thread before I post, but I have to get back to physio.

I am a firm believer in bringing animals, wild or domestic, in contact with the public when possible. You can't appreciate what you don't know, and you aren't going to try to protect something you can't appreciate. That being said I think there are serious limitations on the quality of life we can provide orcas in captivity. This particular orca was kept away from the others and only interacted with trainers on a limited basis, I can't imagine that would be good for an otherwise social animal. I think lack of stimulation for captive, wild animals is probably the most detrimental factor to their well being. I just don't think that these facilities are in a place to provide orcas the kind of stimulation they need.

 

[Shanomong]

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[thereservoirdog]

Not commenting on the topic at hand at all (and not reading all 40something responses lol... I'm sure it's gotten pretty ugly by now), but we just heard a story in class about a veterinary behaviorist who was babysitting and his own dog killed the baby. Can you imagine? I sat there pretty shocked for a few minutes before I could pay attention to the lecture again...

Seriously? Nice job dude. 👎