Sea World Death

[jpeterman13]

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But I believe a whale watching tour and seeing these animals in their natural environment does just as good.

Of course, it would be just as good (if not better) to see the animal in their natural habitat. But unfortunately, I don't have enough money to spend on whale watching tours (which, from what I hear, are basically boat rides because you don't see whales every time) and African safaris. I'd love to go, but I just can't.

 

[rileyroo]

If the human race wasn't idiotic, we wouldn't need to save the whales in the first place! We're causing them to go extinct. If we weren't ruining their habitat, we wouldn't have to stick them in kiddie pools and breed. It's going to catch up to them one way or another... they won't be able to breed enough to keep up with the ones that we're killing, and voila, extinction. We think we're doing them a favor, but it's a lose/lose situation.

I hate humanity. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

I watched a PBS documentry on how humans are causing the next mass extinction so I'm still a little bitter.

wow...

 

[168135]

Of course, it would be just as good (if not better) to see the animal in their natural habitat. But unfortunately, I don't have enough money to spend on whale watching tours (which, from what I hear, are basically boat rides because you don't see whales every time) and African safaris. I'd love to go, but I just can't.

There are whale watching tours in my area that guarantee pilot whales. I went on one in another area and we saw humpbacks, dolphins, porpoises (can't remember the species, I was 13 at the time), and it was totally affordable... $50.... we got it cheaper because we went with a group.

 

[DVMDream]

Of course, it would be just as good (if not better) to see the animal in their natural habitat. But unfortunately, I don't have enough money to spend on whale watching tours (which, from what I hear, are basically boat rides because you don't see whales every time) and African safaris. I'd love to go, but I just can't.

Ya I went on one when I was 9. (Discovered I get sea sick easily). But we almost did not see any whales. At the very end there were maybe 2-3 humpback whales that came up to get some air and splash around a little but definitely not a whole lot. We only saw them for maybe 15-20 minutes before they decided to leave. It was neat but not the best experience ever or anything. And you are not guaranteed to see them on a whale watching tour.

The coolest thing I saw were the bottlenose dolphins and the common dolphins that were swimming off of Catalina Island when I was on a boat there. They were using the boat as an "aid" to help them swim and they were really cool. Splashing out of the water just having fun and playing around. They seem to care less about people being around than do whales. I would definitely go do that again, but again I just happened to be on the "lucky" boat. We were there with the school and there were two separate groups on two separate boats....our boat saw dolphins, the other one didn't.

 

[168135]

Ooops... double posted somehow.

 

[Chapelle]

.

 

[Perfbird]

Oh yes, rugbychick16, I'm an unintelligent person who shouldn't even be posting because I DARED to post information that isn't peer reviewed...this isn't exactly a scientific symposium going on here. And because I dared to post biased information from the scary internet that means I'm a sucker and I believe everything The Onion tells me.

Obviously you have to take those articles with a grain of salt, their titles sort of give that away. All the age data was based off a study done in the 80s in Vancouver and another in Norway that tracked groups of individuals and tracked births, deaths, etc. Those are the only few studies done on Killer Whale lifespan as they live so long it's difficult to follow one Orca from birth to death. Those studies are the most reliable sources that people use today and are referenced in many, many scientific articles on Orcas today. Just look it up in ISI. And it is commonly accepted among the scientific "Orca people" that yes, 50 and 30 are the best estimates of average Orca lifespans. So I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass, there is research and articles to back it up - just not readily available at my fingertips.

I don't have access to the full article, but here is the abstract:
http://apps.isiknowledge.com/full_r...ch&qid=6&SID=1D7l2bMFLKfPK5HoFDf&page=1&doc=1

Here's another that supports the idea of a 50 and 30 average scheme:
http://www.frontiersinzoology.com/content/6/1/4

 

[rileyroo]

There are whale watching tours in my area that guarantee pilot whales. I went on one in another area and we saw humpbacks, dolphins, porpoises (can't remember the species, I was 13 at the time), and it was totally affordable... $50.... we got it cheaper because we went with a group.

totally affordable b/c you live there...it's the traveling there that's expensive... 😀

 

[GSDgirl]

... means I'm a sucker and I believe everything The Onion tells me.

TOTALLY OT (sorry! don't get mad at me!) but this makes me think of something my dad told me the other day...

He's eating his lunch, and a co-worker says, "Have you heard of this paper? Called the O-ny-un? [spelled phonetically so you know how he said it.] I can't believe this story..." blah, blah, blah.

Besides the fact that he didn't think "onion," which is a common-enough word, he thought it was real. 🤣

Ok, back to arguing about whales and such.

 

[cowgirla]

totally affordable b/c you live there...it's the traveling there that's expensive... 😀

You can stay with me 🙂
I think $50 is pricey compared to the ones around here, but it was a couple years ago when I went.

And if you DONT see any whales, you get a coupon for a free trip 🙂

 

[rileyroo]

You can stay with me 🙂
I think $50 is pricey compared to the ones around here, but it was a couple years ago when I went.

And if you DONT see any whales, you get a coupon for a free trip 🙂

what?! i better make my way to NY before you move to Kansas, Mississippi, or wherever you decide to go for vet school!

 

[Tobysgirl81]

Ya I went on one when I was 9. (Discovered I get sea sick easily). But we almost did not see any whales. At the very end there were maybe 2-3 humpback whales that came up to get some air and splash around a little but definitely not a whole lot. We only saw them for maybe 15-20 minutes before they decided to leave. It was neat but not the best experience ever or anything. And you are not guaranteed to see them on a whale watching tour.

The coolest thing I saw were the bottlenose dolphins and the common dolphins that were swimming off of Catalina Island when I was on a boat there. They were using the boat as an "aid" to help them swim and they were really cool. Splashing out of the water just having fun and playing around. They seem to care less about people being around than do whales. I would definitely go do that again, but again I just happened to be on the "lucky" boat. We were there with the school and there were two separate groups on two separate boats....our boat saw dolphins, the other one didn't.

Wow... I grew up where you could go out whale watching during the right seasons and seeing two or three humpbacks on a whale watching tour is actually quite the find! The first whale watching trip I went on was when I was about 7 or 8. We saw I think one gray whale from a distance on my boat, but it was just a few puffs out of the water. And then we saw a ton of dolphins and porpoises (they're pretty common). I went once more in my teens where we saw nothing but dolphins, and then several times when I was in college as I was taking an ecology of the gray whale course. It was hit or miss - sometimes we saw whales, sometimes we didn't.

There are a few things to keep in mind. First, a whale watching boat is not allowed to approach a whale any closer than 600 feet. If the whale comes closer to you, that's fine. But they are not allowed to pursue the whales any closer. They are considered under protection.

Second, there are concerns that whales are starting to change their migratory and swimming habits. They aren't staying as close to the shoreline as they used to, possibly because of whale watching and boating habits. The last trip I went on out of San Fran said that they used to see Blue Whales at least a few times a season, but hadn't seen ANY in the last 5 or so years (I was still keeping my fingers crossed).

Unfortunately, wild animals can't be counted on to be there when you want them. Whale watching is a TON of fun, but its not a guarantee you'll find anything other than a couple birds and maybe some dolphins. I suggest everyone go at least once, just be realistic about what you're going to see!

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

Ok, so what should we do about whale conservation then? Considering someone mentioned earlier that whales are only taken out of the wild if they need to be rehabilitated and they are only kept in captivity if they are deemed (by the government) to be unfit to be released. And it seems that you are against breeding them in captivity as well. So do we just let them go extinct and stop all conservation efforts of marine mammals just because we can not give them a "really close to natural" environment in captivity? Do we basically say that marine animals are SOL when it comes to conservation?

There are other conservation strategies that do not involve captivity. I just feel that some species should be excluded from captive breeding programs if they cannot be maintained in artificial settings without causing excessive stress to the animals. I was wondering if anyone knew of any research being done on the cortisol levels of captive vs wild whales? I would imagine that the level of stress hormones would be much higher in the captive population, but would like to see some scientific data.

 

[DVMDream]

Wow... I grew up where you could go out whale watching during the right seasons and seeing two or three humpbacks on a whale watching tour is actually quite the find! The first whale watching trip I went on was when I was about 7 or 8. We saw I think one gray whale from a distance on my boat, but it was just a few puffs out of the water. And then we saw a ton of dolphins and porpoises (they're pretty common). I went once more in my teens where we saw nothing but dolphins, and then several times when I was in college as I was taking an ecology of the gray whale course. It was hit or miss - sometimes we saw whales, sometimes we didn't.

There are a few things to keep in mind. First, a whale watching boat is not allowed to approach a whale any closer than 600 feet. If the whale comes closer to you, that's fine. But they are not allowed to pursue the whales any closer. They are considered under protection.

Second, there are concerns that whales are starting to change their migratory and swimming habits. They aren't staying as close to the shoreline as they used to, possibly because of whale watching and boating habits. The last trip I went on out of San Fran said that they used to see Blue Whales at least a few times a season, but hadn't seen ANY in the last 5 or so years (I was still keeping my fingers crossed).

Unfortunately, wild animals can't be counted on to be there when you want them. Whale watching is a TON of fun, but its not a guarantee you'll find anything other than a couple birds and maybe some dolphins. I suggest everyone go at least once, just be realistic about what you're going to see!

Yeah I knew about the 600 feet thing and I was quite surprised with how close some of the whales did get. I have pictures...somewhere, but most of what I saw where just puffs of air, the back of the whale, and the tail heading back down into the water. And then they left. But, it was definitely cool...I could have down without the seagulls and sea sickness but I still enjoyed it and would go again. I think dolphins are much more interesting though..and they have the same rule about dolphins...must stay a certain distance away, but if they come closer than it is ok..which they did. They rode the waves right next to the boat...that was AMAZING!! But, I would agree if you can go whale watching or snorkeling or anything like that to do it because it is a really neat experience. I really enjoyed snorkeling off of Catalina Island in the middle of October..it was nice and cold, but those wet suits keep you warm.

 

[Tobysgirl81]

There are other conservation strategies that do not involve captivity. I just feel that some species should be excluded from captive breeding programs if they cannot be maintained in artificial settings without causing excessive stress to the animals. I was wondering if anyone knew of any research being done on the cortisol levels of captive vs wild whales? I would imagine that the level of stress hormones would be much higher in the captive population, but would like to see some scientific data.

I wonder also if there's a difference between captive bred whales and wild whales that that were brought into captivity. I'd imagine those that were captive bred would have lower cortisol levels than those that were caught, though likely still higher than those who live in their natural habitat.

My other concern would be for the whales that they try and release (if they did try and release them). Didn't they have troubles with Keiko (the whale Free Willy was based on) when they released him?

 

[DVMDream]

There are other conservation strategies that do not involve captivity. I just feel that some species should be excluded from captive breeding programs if they cannot be maintained in artificial settings without causing excessive stress to the animals. I was wondering if anyone knew of any research being done on the cortisol levels of captive vs wild whales? I would imagine that the level of stress hormones would be much higher in the captive population, but would like to see some scientific data.

That would be an interesting study. I just wonder how you would get accurate data on wild whales without inducing stress and therefore nullifying the results?

 

[Tobysgirl81]

DVM- snorkeling off Catalina is so much fun! I went during the summer and close to the shore the water was nice and warm, but as soon as you got over that shelf...DAYUM it was cold water! I really wanted to try and go down a little deeper, but it was just too cold in my swimsuit. I went snorkeling off of Hawaii too, which was fun...But the fish were a little more intimidating. They were more of the "GIVE ME MY FOOD HUMAN!" mindset. Not that they were going to eat us, just that it was a little more questionable 😛

I remember the instructor for our ecology class was talking about how whales have natural parasites (louses, and tick like parasites). He showed us a jar full of these HUGE tick looking things, and said they were normal parasites on whales and they sort of cascade off of them in the water...Those people taking pictures under the whales? Yeah. They're getting a body full of big ass ticks. Ever since then, I've been a little less eager to go "swimming with the whales" *full body shudders*

 

[DVMDream]

DVM- snorkeling off Catalina is so much fun! I went during the summer and close to the shore the water was nice and warm, but as soon as you got over that shelf...DAYUM it was cold water! I really wanted to try and go down a little deeper, but it was just too cold in my swimsuit. I went snorkeling off of Hawaii too, which was fun...But the fish were a little more intimidating. They were more of the "GIVE ME MY FOOD HUMAN!" mindset. Not that they were going to eat us, just that it was a little more questionable 😛

I remember the instructor for our ecology class was talking about how whales have natural parasites (louses, and tick like parasites). He showed us a jar full of these HUGE tick looking things, and said they were normal parasites on whales and they sort of cascade off of them in the water...Those people taking pictures under the whales? Yeah. They're getting a body full of big ass ticks. Ever since then, I've been a little less eager to go "swimming with the whales" *full body shudders*

I have never been to Hawaii... 🙁, but I bet it is really cool. We discussed those massive ticks in my parastiology class...those things are really, really creepy. Yeah...I am not too sure about swimming under/behind a whale with those things floating at you.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

That would be an interesting study. I just wonder how you would get accurate data on wild whales without inducing stress and therefore nullifying the results?

Yes, that would definitely be a problem. Tranquilizing would be stress-inducing, so not sure how it would be done.

 

[nyanko]

I thought that these two links were interesting.
1. Shows the differences in educational information provided to visitors at animal parks vs the scientific research and the high correlation between captivity and early deaths for orcas held in animal parks. https://orcanetwork.org/nathist/biennial.pdf

The second one is "in prep" and who knows for how long. All of the references are from the 90's so I'm going to assume it's gone without peer review/been rejected by the peer review process for quite some time. In addition this source has one author from the HSUS (animal rights), and the references they hinge their argument on are from personal communications, HSUS meeting proceedings, WDCS (a biased source), unpublished data, magazines, review papers (secondary sources) and books. It is written in a very biased and accusatory manner.

Seriously.

edit: I'm not really educated enough on marine mammal species to have a pre-existing opinion on the topic of longevity in captivity vs the wild, but I'm just saying that none of the sources that have been presented would really do much to convince me, as a scientist in a different field. There doesn't seem to be enough data to say one way or the other, and to then make the leap that the conditions of captivity are the causative agent for any discrepancy that does exist without more data is irresponsible at best.

 

[168135]

totally affordable b/c you live there...it's the traveling there that's expensive... 😀

Well, most of the people who go to Seaworld travel from afar 😛

 

[KiaKia]

...Tranquilizing would be stress-inducing, so not sure how it would be done.

Not to mention nearly fatal, since they do have to consciously swim to the surface to breathe.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

Not to mention nearly fatal, since they do have to consciously swim to the surface to breathe.

Yes, they would have to make sure that they administered the proper dosage otherwise it would be deadly. I know that they have tranquilized whales in the past in efforts to release them from fishing nets, so apparently it can be done with the right dose.

 

[philomycus]

Why can't the big parks push conservation and education without having to use live animals in shows?

You want people to pay $70.00 each take their 8 year old kid to look at pictures of animals? That would work. Sure.

 

[CatVet2Be]

Didn't they have troubles with Keiko (the whale Free Willy was based on) when they released him?

Yup. Keiko was never able to hunt properly, kept returning to humans and following boats, and never found a pod that would take him in. He died of pneumonia in 2003. Once you tame animals and they become dependent on humans for survival you can't release them and expect them to survive on their own again without some major problems.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiko_(orca)

 

[Castaway12]

I actually spent a summer training and researching dolphins down in the Florida Keys (tough summer I know) and wanted to do a research project measuring the cortisol levels of the dolphins from "normal" swim time and that of the dolphin after completing a session interacting with customers. The project was unable to be completed for one simple reason: no one know the "normal" levels of a dolphin, for any blood chemistry or cbc data. There is no published or known data (trust me, I worked for marine mammal vets and their vast knowledge combined with literature searches came up with nothing but random samples)

You can estimate levels, and find some literature, but not complete. We sent samples to Cornell and a human diagnostic center, but in the end the data meant essentially nothing.

Also, you have to train the animals to allow you to draw blood, and in many cases it can be stressful for them.

Animal education👍 Also- Our enclosure was on a natural waterway, so it was not an enclosed tank but the beautiful Florida waterways!

 

[Castaway12]

Also, fun little note-

We used to have "Dolphin Day"- a day out of the weeks that we would open up the enclosures and the dolphins could swim freely up and down the Florida Key's canals. At the end of the day, the Dolphins would come home on their own. (Florida law no longer allows this)

Though dolphins and killer whales are vastly different, who wants to try and "free willy" now?

 

[racccjlm]

I know it's completely and totally off topic - but I love your avatar castaway! That's all! Back on topic.

 

[KiaKia]

Yes, they would have to make sure that they administered the proper dosage otherwise it would be deadly. I know that they have tranquilized whales in the past in efforts to release them from fishing nets, so apparently it can be done with the right dose.

Having to do that would give me nightmares...imagine miscalculating the dosage (they are huge and wild and stressed out) and having to watch a such a heavy animal start sinking and drowning...eek.

 

[Castaway12]

I know it's completely and totally off topic - but I love your avatar castaway! That's all! Back on topic.

Thanks! That's one of the sea lions we had- it's his special smile...i know..it looks like he's in pain😀

 

[Perfbird]

@ GSDgirl - that's too funny! They do make a pretty good show of it, I'm sure there's tons of people out there who take it seriously. I think my life would be much more humorous if it was.

You want people to pay $70.00 each take their 8 year old kid to look at pictures of animals? That would work. Sure.

Philomycus, where did I ever say anything about charging people $70.00 to look at pictures? Did I even suggest anything remotely like that? Please don't put words in my mouth or try to say what you thought I meant. I didn't even make a suggestion, and that's a really stupid idea for anyone to suggest - of course people won't pay for that, and I never indicated that that was the alternative. 🙄

At the Zoo I work at we have a whole education center, with interactive exhibits with skeletons of large animals and plastic animal models kiddos can climb on and neat videos for them to watch, games to play, etc. And guess what - they don't have to pay! They can do a little scavenger hunt and get stamps and get a prize at the end for going to all of the Discovery Stations and learning about endangered species and how they can help, and there's a donation box if they'd like to give. People can pay to have a private tour in a golf cart, and if they like they can pay to have a "Interactive Session" where keepers bring out the domestic animals - rabbits, ferrets, hedgehogs, snakes, parrots, etc, and the kids can pet them and ask questions. The keepers educate the kids about those animals as pets and also talk about their relatives in the wild.

At the San Diego Zoo's wild animal park they have a really innovative way of pushing conservation without compromising the animals' well being. As many people know the SD Zoo's WAP is one of the most natural "parks" in the world - they have 900 acres where they house their animals, and their animals have minimal contact with people and live in social groups and even live with other species that they'd be found with in the wild. It's about as "wild" as you can get in a urban setting. They make big bucks by charging people $75.00 for a 2 hour tour around the outskirts of the park and into some of the night houses. There is no interaction with the animals (and the animals don't do tricks), just watching, and the tour guide teaches you about how they're working to conserve species - it's supposed to mimic a safari.

 

[badcats]

There is no interaction with the animals (and the animals don't do tricks), just watching, and the tour guide teaches you about how they're working to conserve species - it's supposed to mimic a safari.

This isn't exactly, true. They do let you feed giraffes and rhinos on those expensive trips into the areas, but you can ride for free around the perimeter.
Plus at the other park (San Diego Zoo) they have several shows and one of my favorites is the conservation show with the California sea lions
http://www.sandiegozoo.org/zoo/plan_your_trip/shows

That is all I have, and am staying out of the rest of this😎

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

Having to do that would give me nightmares...imagine miscalculating the dosage (they are huge and wild and stressed out) and having to watch a such a heavy animal start sinking and drowning...eek.

I would never be able to administer that dose...

 

[Perfbird]

Ooh, thanks for correcting me badcats. On my tour we didn't get to feed anything, but then again we didn't do the one where you actually went into the big open exhibit, we were in a small group in a tram. I'm jealous you live in SD, it's such a nice place!

I still stand behind my reasoning, lol.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

I actually spent a summer training and researching dolphins down in the Florida Keys (tough summer I know) and wanted to do a research project measuring the cortisol levels of the dolphins from "normal" swim time and that of the dolphin after completing a session interacting with customers. The project was unable to be completed for one simple reason: no one know the "normal" levels of a dolphin, for any blood chemistry or cbc data. There is no published or known data

You can estimate levels, and find some literature, but not complete. We sent samples to Cornell and a human diagnostic center, but in the end the data meant essentially nothing.

Also, you have to train the animals to allow you to draw blood, and in many cases it can be stressful for them.

This lack of standards for comparison seems to be a universal problem in zoo medicine. Determining cortisol levels of captive animals would be useless if we don't know the "normal" cortisol levels of free-living animals. And then the problem of stressing the wild animals, in effect tampering with the results, as DVM dream stated. I don't know how you would non-invasively collect blood chemistry data on wild killer whales without stressing them out. What about some microchip that could detect hormone levels? Would that be possible? Of course, then you would have to implant the microchip...oh well

 

[DVMDream]

This lack of standards for comparison seems to be a universal problem in zoo medicine. Determining cortisol levels of captive animals would be useless if we don't know the "normal" cortisol levels of free-living animals. And then the problem of stressing the wild animals, in effect tampering with the results, as DVM dream stated. I don't know how you would non-invasively collect blood chemistry data on wild killer whales without stressing them out. What about some microchip that could detect hormone levels? Would that be possible? Of course, then you would have to implant the microchip...oh well

Hmm...but if the mircrochip were able to test hormones over time then the stress that animal has initially would go away and you could monitor the hormone levels for however long you desire. That would be one really neat microchip and it probably would not be entirely impossible to create.

 

[nyanko]

Scientists have been using fecal glucocorticoid levels to measure stress responses in wild animals for years.

I don't know how useful that is in marine mammals, but I don't think it's a universal problem to most species.

 

[Tobysgirl81]

I would imagine the best thing you could do is measure cortisol levels in captive whales over a period of time like a year to get an average baseline. From there you could determine after various activities whether they're more stressed or less...

But then there's always variables like, aren't WE all stressed at work even if we're used to it? So even if we measured a difference in cortisol levels after a whale performs, what is considered acceptable and what isn't? I guess someone has to do the research at some point if we want to get quantifiable data...its just going to be a long haul. Probably a good research project for a someone interested in zoo or aquatic medicine 😉

And, I don't know a whole lot about the whale involved in the incident(or honestly about the personality of captive whales in general), but considering he's been linked to three other injuries/deaths my guess is he has a personality issue that makes him inappropriate for further work with humans. What bothers me even MORE however is that they used him for breeding purposes. Yes, I know, its not like they can just go to a local breeder...but there's still the old debate of nature versus nurture and how much of dad's temperment is going to stick in his offspring? Even if it was questionable whether or not he was involved or if he was stressed, or whatever, I don't think I would risk that potential behavior or temperament on ANY animal that size. We should be looking for animals that have adjusted well to being in captivity if we want to breed, not just breeding for breeding's sake. Its a greater kindness to the animals involved as well as a safety issue for those people who have to handle them if they are more comfortable in their surroundings and less likely to have an unstable personality.

 

[KiaKia]

Scientists have been using fecal glucocorticoid levels to measure stress responses in wild animals for years.

I don't know how useful that is in marine mammals, but I don't think it's a universal problem to most species.

It's done:
http://depts.washington.edu/conserv/resident_orcas.html

Actually, taking biopsies from marine mammals is stressful, but not *that* stressful. You shoot them with a crossbow with a modified tip, which then bounces off and floats in the water for pickup.
The stressful part isn't getting stung by a dart, but that a boat is continually trying to get close to you to get a safe shot (no dart in the eye or mouth, for example).

The hard part about this sort of research is that you can't plan to get a biopsy once a week or once a month - the target will learn to avoid the nasty boat pretty quick, and it's not like the scientist can track the whale/dolphin and know where to look each day.

The poop research also involves getting annoyingly close to an animal (annoying to the animal) since you have to observe the animal poop to ID it then quickly pick it up before it disperses.

If anyone is particularly interested in this sort of work in primates, check out Dr. Robert Sapolskys' work. He's a great pop science writer as well as a great scientific writer.

[...finally, something I can talk knowledgeably about. I'm still getting used to being pre-vet. ]

 

[Castaway12]

Scientists have been using fecal glucocorticoid levels to measure stress responses in wild animals for years.

I don't know how useful that is in marine mammals, but I don't think it's a universal problem to most species.

Too bad for our dolphins there was no command for "poop"! I also was looking at studying crypto in dolphins and collecting samples, however you can't collect the fecal samples, at least we couldn't.

With that all said and done, Sea World is the top dog when it comes to marine mammal work, education, and conservation. They have the best of the best trainers, vets, and scientits. Everyone talks about how this whale killed all these people. The first case involved 3 whales, one of them (not Tilly) who killed someone on a different occasion, and the second time the man died of hypothermia and the bite marks were post-mortum. These are intelligent creatures, and when something new is in their tank they get excited and investigate it (they dont know it's a dead body, gew) The trainers know that working with these animals is a risk, which is why you have to be a trainer at Sea World for years before you are even allowed to touch a killer whale.

And with talks about breeding this "aggressive whale" you have to look at availablility. You don't know the situation, and I would leave the judgement and decision making up to the experts who have been studying these animals for years. Most males don't reach breading age until 21 (they can at 15). Seeing females don't reach sexual maturity until 15, have one calf every 5 years (if the calf survives, survival rates are very low), and have an average age in captivity of around 30 years, you can imagine how difficult succesful breeding is. I do see where you're coming from with the personality breeding debate, however for all we know this may not have been a "pre-mediated killer attack" and simply a misunderstaing on this orcas part.

In a related note, who else has raised cows/animals that didn't realize you wern't 500lbs like they were? I've worked with heifers who thought I was part of the gang, and didn't realize that I did not want to head butt them back!

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

Scientists have been using fecal glucocorticoid levels to measure stress responses in wild animals for years.

I don't know how useful that is in marine mammals, but I don't think it's a universal problem to most species.

I know they do a lot of that research using fecal samples in captive elephants to determine why they are having difficulty breeding in captivity and if that lack of breeding relates to their cortisol levels. Just don't know how they would use that fecal testing either in whales. I just meant that there is a general lack of comparison standards for any type of testing or procedures in zoo medicine as compared to that in domestic animals.

 

[lyndaelyzoo]

It's done:
http://depts.washington.edu/conserv/resident_orcas.html

Wow!! Thanks for the information and the link. Very interesting!! Whale Scat detection dogs!!! 😀

I agree with you Tobysgirl. If they are going to breed them, at least breed those that are more adjusted to captivity. But, who knows, maybe there are no other bachelors available!

 

[sumstorm]

I do not care for Seaworld or their "rescue" missions which I have seen consistantly remove animals with no intention of returning them. SO FREE THE WHALES! MEANING NEVER TAKE THEM INTO CAPTIVITY IN THE DAMN FIRST PLACE!!!!

And for all you Seaworld lovers, go rent The Cove or read up on how the HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES is asking people NOT TO GO TO THEIR DISCOVERY COVE.

HSUS doesn't impress me. People who don't understand what the organization they support represents just frustrates me.

The policy within NOAA & FWS for animals that multiple strand, cannot be genetically productive, or that interfere routinely with normal human operations is to euthanize. At least, that is what it was when I was working in the marine field; and that is what it still is in sea turtle strandings. I have mixed feelings on captivity, but I am not convinced that it is better to be dead than to be used in conservation programs. Of course, that is just my opinion, and I have worked in the best and worst circumstances in zoo and marine fields. Are you up to being the individual who euthanizing vs captive placement? There is a dolphin in Florida who lacks hearing/sonar…. I can’t imagine being the one to destroy her.

 

[DVMDream]

The first case involved 3 whales, one of them (not Tilly) who killed someone on a different occasion, and the second time the man died of hypothermia and the bite marks were post-mortum. These are intelligent creatures, and when something new is in their tank they get excited and investigate it (they dont know it's a dead body,

Honestly, the second time was not the whale's fault. Some idiot stayed in the park after hours (snuck past security) and climbed into the whale's tank. That is his own fault. You should know that the whale is going to be curious/interested or potentially dangerous. So stupidity killed the man. The whale probably thought he was just a toy/something to toss around and had no idea what he was doing.

 

[Castaway12]

There is a dolphin in Florida who lacks hearing/sonar…. I can’t imagine being the one to destroy her.

That's Castaway! I spent the summer working with her, she's so amazing. She beached herself 3 times, and all 3 times rescuers tried to release her. The 3rd time we realized she was deaf and was unable to use sonar to locate food/directions. After much rehab, a Dolphin interaction program was allowed to adopt her. Here, she went under more rehab, including rub downs that last 8 hours a day. She unable to hunt on her own, so was fed by a trainer. After a year, a program was adopted that allowed handicapped kids and people who couldn't swim to stand on a platform and interact with the dolphin (only when Castaway felt up to it, and once at day max). Kids who will never walk were able to float and have the power to interact with such an amazing creature. These experiences were unforgettable for both them and myself.

Castaway is a rare case, however it wern't for the support (finacially and emotionally) she would have died on the beach (which is why they beach themselves anyways). This is an example of a rehab dolphin that was given a better life in captivity.