Seeing 'patients' early

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Comrade

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  1. Pre-Medical
Some schools really advertise how their students 'see patients early' in their curriculums. What exactly is the benefit of that? Without having the educational foundation in place, what exactly can you do? We've all already shadowed physicians, and in clinical rotations there'll be plenty of patients to see. While being in the hospital is more fun than studying notes, does it really make a better physician to do that at the expense of studying human physiology as thoroughly?

At one interview I was told that I'd be seeing patients within the first few weeks. Turns out these 'patients' were actually standardized patient actors and not sick people. The purpose of this, ostensibly, to hone interviewing skills.

What's the big deal with seeing patients? I need to learn what can go wrong with them first!
 
I think it's nice to get in some clinical stuff early so you know what you're studying all that science for. I agree, though, that very early patient contact isn't necessarily helpful. I think it's the continued contact through first year (interviews) and second year (physicals) that makes a difference. For example, my husband (who's at Drexel), has done a lot of patient interviews and has started doing physicals. Now, in the second half of second year, he's started going to the hospital once a week to do histories and physicals, present patients, and write them up. This is great, and very important, because when you get to third year you want to have some clue as to what you're supposed to do.

I think most schools these days have fairly comparable patient/clinical exposure during the pre-clinical years, at least as far as I've seen. Some probably do more than others. What's most important, IMO, is having enough exposure before you get to third year to be somewhat comfortable with what is expected of you; not necessarily completly comfortable actually doing everything yourself or presenting patients to attendings incredibly well, but enough to get you started.
 
Comrade said:
What's the big deal with seeing patients? I need to learn what can go wrong with them first!

I think its mostly to gain experience and confidence in talking to patients. It's better to screw up a History when you're an M1 when it doesn't really matter rather than to be a bumbling M3 doing a clinical rotation whose grade may affect where you end up for your residency!
 
Comrade said:
Some schools really advertise how their students 'see patients early' in their curriculums. What exactly is the benefit of that? Without having the educational foundation in place, what exactly can you do? We've all already shadowed physicians, and in clinical rotations there'll be plenty of patients to see. While being in the hospital is more fun than studying notes, does it really make a better physician to do that at the expense of studying human physiology as thoroughly?

At one interview I was told that I'd be seeing patients within the first few weeks. Turns out these 'patients' were actually standardized patient actors and not sick people. The purpose of this, ostensibly, to hone interviewing skills.

What's the big deal with seeing patients? I need to learn what can go wrong with them first!

Schools do this because students in years past demanded it. This clinical exposure is in direct response to concerns expressed by med students over the years that they were learning a lot of science with no context. Med students wanted to know how these very dry classes correlated to things they could use. They also showed up to med school gung ho to "practice medicine" only to find that they weren't getting out of the classroom for two years. Schools thus started adding early clinical exposure into their programs to keep students excited about medicine, and give them a small taste of the profession they were so excited about when the first enrolled. It soon became something schools advertised, and competed with each other about. And it's not just standardized patients -- most programs now work in clinician discussions of cases, periodic shadowing, and med student interviewing/history taking of real live patients. It's part of the curriculum to keep folks interested, not because it's necessary or because you know anything useful.
 
You see patients early so that you'll be prepared for your 3rd and 4th years. My school has had plenty of disappointments when students from other universities come here to do a rotation and can't do the simplest procedures.
 
deuist said:
You see patients early so that you'll be prepared for your 3rd and 4th years. My school has had plenty of disappointments when students from other universities come here to do a rotation and can't do the simplest procedures.

What do you mean by procedures?
 
Law2Doc said:
This clinical exposure is in direct response to concerns expressed by med students over the years that they were learning a lot of science with no context. Med students wanted to know how these very dry classes correlated to things they could use.

Another reason I like PBL -- the underlying science being taught is reinforced through clinical problems from the beginning.
 
deuist said:
You see patients early so that you'll be prepared for your 3rd and 4th years. My school has had plenty of disappointments when students from other universities come here to do a rotation and can't do the simplest procedures.

Well, that would certainly justify seeing patients before the end of 2d year, when you actually know a bit more. But most schools these days already have you getting minor patient contact in the first couple of months. That is clearly done to stimulate interest and give you context, not in expectation that it will make you a better third year. I'm pretty sure my prior post is the real reason.
 
Law2Doc said:
Schools do this because students in years past demanded it. This clinical exposure is in direct response to concerns expressed by med students over the years that they were learning a lot of science with no context. Med students wanted to know how these very dry classes correlated to things they could use. They also showed up to med school gung ho to "practice medicine" only to find that they weren't getting out of the classroom for two years. Schools thus started adding early clinical exposure into their programs to keep students excited about medicine, and give them a small taste of the profession they were so excited about when the first enrolled. It soon became something schools advertised, and competed with each other about. And it's not just standardized patients -- most programs now work in clinician discussions of cases, periodic shadowing, and med student interviewing/history taking of real live patients. It's part of the curriculum to keep folks interested, not because it's necessary or because you know anything useful.

I can see how some exposure will keep students psyched. I have definately heard from many a med student in their biochemistry bloc wondering how that'll be applicable in the field. Kind of like studying for the PS section of the MCAT wondering when you'll be asked to find the tension in the pulley's rope that is raising the cripple's leg. Assuming ofcourse, a massless, frictionless pulley in a vacuum...
 
Law2Doc said:
Well, that would certainly justify seeing patients before the end of 2d year, when you actually know a bit more. But most schools these days already have you getting minor patient contact in the first couple of months. That is clearly done to stimulate interest and give you context, not in expectation that it will make you a better third year. I'm pretty sure my prior post is the real reason.

i definitely think it helps hold students' interest, but i think the main reason is that every bit of practice talking to patients is helpful and relevant...that's why a lot of early "patient" contact is with standardized patients...it's so people learn to communicate comfortably with patients...which doesn't really require any specific medical knowledge, but is an essential skill for a doctor to have.

i think it's an interesting idea that med schools are doing this just because students want it, but if they were in the business of doing what students wanted, the MCAT would be 10 questions and the application process would be a centralized online process that would take 5-7 business days 🙂
 
jbrice1639 said:
i think it's an interesting idea that med schools are doing this just because students want it, but if they were in the business of doing what students wanted, the MCAT would be 10 questions and the application process would be a centralized online process that would take 5-7 business days 🙂

That just shows that you don't have any clout until you actually matriculate. 🙂
 
Law2Doc said:
That just shows that you don't have any clout until you actually matriculate. 🙂

true...i suppose once they've got your first $35k they want to make sure they get the next three. can't imagine anyone actually just quitting med school because they didn't get enough patient contact as a first year...but who knows, anything is possible i suppose.

they're definitely are some self-entitled pre-meds out there though 🙄
 
jbrice1639 said:
true...i suppose once they've got your first $35k they want to make sure they get the next three. can't imagine anyone actually just quitting med school because they didn't get enough patient contact as a first year...but who knows, anything is possible i suppose.

I've actually heard from a number of folks (from before the early patient contact era) say they almost quit first year because of the purely academic phase of the education. They stuck it out though...
 
I've also heard from several people who've told me that if it hadn't have been for any kind of early patient contact, they probably would have "lost it" or just plain gotten out. So I think it really is a big consideration. Just my 2 cents.
 
quantummechanic said:
What do you mean by procedures?

There are some fourth years that can't run an IV, draw blood, or insert a foley catheter. Certainly a doctor to be should be able to do anything that a nursing assistant can. I heard from one dean that a student once tried to do an eye exam while using the pointed end of a otoscope.
 
deuist said:
There are some fourth years that can't run an IV, draw blood, or insert a foley catheter. Certainly a doctor to be should be able to do anything that a nursing assistant can. I heard from one dean that a student once tried to do an eye exam while using the pointed end of a otoscope.

I agree that I certainly want to learn those basic skills in med school. But do you think that most med schools teach those procedures in a systematic way? I think that years 3 and 4 get kind of lost in the application process - most of the focus is on the curriculum in the first two years. It seems like with a lot of schools, the amount of hands on experience can vary a lot depending on the resident you're paired with.
 
deuist said:
There are some fourth years that can't run an IV, draw blood, or insert a foley catheter. Certainly a doctor to be should be able to do anything that a nursing assistant can. I heard from one dean that a student once tried to do an eye exam while using the pointed end of a otoscope.
I must say, as a paramedic one of the most amusing things I ever saw was a med student try to start an IV. Guy was so full of himself he wouldn't ask for help - we offered help and he got really nasty with us ("I'm a medical student .. what are you going to possibly teach me?") We watched him for almost 30 minutes. He never did get the line. :laugh:

I hope when I start rotations I will never hestitate to ask for pearls of wisdom or refuse help when offered.
 
deuist said:
There are some fourth years that can't run an IV, draw blood, or insert a foley catheter. Certainly a doctor to be should be able to do anything that a nursing assistant can. I heard from one dean that a student once tried to do an eye exam while using the pointed end of a otoscope.

They didn't learn that stuff in m3 clerkships??!!!?? :laugh:
They must've gone to a real cushy school.
 
bkflaneur said:
But do you think that most med schools teach those procedures in a systematic way?

Some schools teach in a systematic way. My school made all of the M1's learn how to draw blood during December. First, we had a lecture in the auditorium. Next, we paired off and stuck each other. Luckily, I have large veins---so I came came out fine.
 
deuist said:
Some schools teach in a systematic way. My school made all of the M1's learn how to draw blood during December. First, we had a lecture in the auditorium. Next, we paired off and stuck each other. Luckily, I have large veins---so I came came out fine.

Harsh. I'm tempted to take the low road with far too many bad one-liners about the opportunity of needling and pricking classmates, but I will refrain. 🙂
 
getting used to interviewing patients takes a lot of time. the early interaction gets you used to flowing through the exam. of course the early interactions just suck cause you don't know how to sculpt your questions. it'll easily take you all hour to get things done. now i can cruise in and out, but it took a lot of hard work to get there.
 
Comrade said:
Some schools really advertise how their students 'see patients early' in their curriculums. What exactly is the benefit of that? Without having the educational foundation in place, what exactly can you do? We've all already shadowed physicians, and in clinical rotations there'll be plenty of patients to see. While being in the hospital is more fun than studying notes, does it really make a better physician to do that at the expense of studying human physiology as thoroughly?

At one interview I was told that I'd be seeing patients within the first few weeks. Turns out these 'patients' were actually standardized patient actors and not sick people. The purpose of this, ostensibly, to hone interviewing skills.

What's the big deal with seeing patients? I need to learn what can go wrong with them first!

Hi there,
During the first semester of my first year, we had clinical rotations. You could pick the specialty that you wanted to rotate through but there were set goals for the rotation. We were placed on the clinical team along with the more senior medical students, the interns and the resident. We were also very closely under the eye of an attending who carefully evaluated our learning experience.The first thing that you learn is to do a thorough patient history and present the patient to the attending mentor. This was golden knowledge.

You do not have to have an extensive clinical or educational background to do a great patient history. You have to have the ability to listen to what the patient is telling you and ask questions that get to the bottom of the patients problems.

Learning how to do a great patient presentation take practice. The more you do something, the better you are at doing it. Again, you do not need to have an extensive clincial background but you do need to know how to logically organize what the patient has told you into a concise presentation that gets to the meat of their problem. My attending carefully taught me how to analyze what the patient tells you and how to organize that information into a great history and presentation.

Anyone can sit and do a "check-off" kind of patient history but a good medical school education gives you the background over the course of four years) in how to evaluate the complaints of your patients. It's not about how good you are at procedures. It's not about how many surgeries you scrubbed, it is about how you can take all of the information (especially what you learn from the patient) and develop a clear clinical plan for treating them.

The earlier you are exposed to clinical medicine and the earlier you start to develop your clinical evaluation skills, the better. This is why there is no substitute for a physician. This is why there is no education that even comes close to a medical education and this is what you pay thousands of dollars in tuition to master. All of those physiological factoids are useless if you cannot walk into a room, take a thorough patient history and apply your knowledge of physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry etc. to solving their clinical problem.

I didn't fully appreciate how much that early clinical exposure was of benefit to me until I was an intern. There were other interns who had graduated from extremely high ranked schools who were just confounded when it came to actually seeing a patient and developing a clinical plan. I received very high evaluations for being able to do this efficiently.

A good question to ask on your medical school interviews is: "How early do students get clinical exposure and what is the nature of this exposure?" Just shadowing a physician is not the same thing.

njbmd 🙂
 
My med school brags about the early clinical exposure. During the first year, we spend one day a week shadowing a physician. Although some people had valuable experiences, my experience was a huge waste of time. I merely watched private physicians see their patients, and I was bored out of my mind. It was useless. I wasn't doing anything (we weren't allowed to draw blood, do injections, etc) and most of the time I wasn't even talking with patients. During the few times when I did get to talk with the patients, I really didn't know what I was doing. It was just a waste of time. That's all I can say.

If you are worried about learning how to draw blood and put in IVs, don't worry. You will get more than enough of that in third year. You should be confident drawing blood during your third year - whether you did it in your first year is irrelevant by the time you hit fourth year. You will also learn how to take patient histories and do a physical exam. And since you will actually be following the patient, it will be a whole lot more meaningful for you.

Damn, that "early clinical exposure" was such a f*cking waste of time. It actually angers me to think about it.
 
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