0bliqueridge
Full Member
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this guy...
Serious post: Why dual degree OMS residency?
Started by D1Bound
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deleted1203555
Don’t feed the animals. The truth is there will be a small minority of dual degree surgeons that are extremely jealous. They are jealous because single degree oral surgeons can finish their residency in four years straight out of dental school and didn’t lose two years of high producing income. Not to mention they got on with their lives two years sooner. We’re talking a serious amount of income loss over the course of two years. Most of you don’t have a clue what the true earning potential of a high producing oral surgeon can generate in one or two years. On top of that the single degree oral surgeons didn’t have to waste time performing medical school rotations and studying for the USMLE. I always knew he disliked single degree oral surgeons but I never realized how much he hated us.
As mentioned above any true medically compromised patient that is in house would be consulted with and collaboratively managed by the medicine team and multiple other associated teams (cardiology, infectious disease etc etc). None of what he is saying is true at all.
The truth is - van der woude hasn’t even practiced a day in his life outside of residency. This clown will probably end up in a dead end job in SoCal working for western dental.
There are tons of single degree programs that don’t require you to have done a hospital based internship or residency prior to matching.
Take me for example I came straight out of dental school. I’d say 25 percent of my co residents in my department (the day I entered residency) did a 1 year internship or GPR prior to matriculating.
Again what he’s saying is not accurate at all.
As far as being a real doctor. I just don’t know how to comment on that. I for one am extremely proud to be a dental specialist. Our state dental board grants us a huge privilege to administer our own anesthesia. This is something that the state medical board would never approve (operator anesthetist model). Not only that ALL our production comes from dentistry. ALL our production comes from referrals from dental colleagues. To pretend otherwise would be an outright lie. Dental insurance pays oral surgeons to perform GA more than medical insurance pays MD anesthesiologists to perform GA.
unsatisfiedomfs
Full Member
aren’t you already in residency? In all honesty who cares anymore
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unsatisfiedomfs
Full Member
This is hilarious. A real doctor
You okay..?
This post was for a legitimate question. I’ve gotten many comments from my former dental school classmate doing a six year that there’s a perceived difference between their 4/6 year residents. I am on the 4 year track, but there’s always the option to go back and get an MD later somewhere! I suspected the MD isn’t necessary, and so far it seems that way (except for my reason mentioned in my first post).
Dude, relax. By your definition, I’d be one of the few who’s in debt, has no family, and yet somehow not bothered by the opportunity cost. I’m a six-year resident and have nothing but respect for my OMS colleagues, regardless of pathway. Personally, I think the med school portion gave me a deeper appreciation for even the smallest aspects of what we do in surgery. Every rotation taught me something new—whether medical or surgical management—that I hope will stick with me and become part of my regular repertoire in practice.
That said, the MD itself is just a couple of letters. It doesn’t define a practitioner—stupidity doesn’t discriminate. At the end of the day, we all take the same boards, and that’s the real equalizer. Like Hockey Dock said, unless you want the MD, the priority should be finding a strong OMS program that trains you to be a solid clinician and surgeon.
This is just my nugget of knowledge, and honestly insignificant, but at the hospital I practice at only MDs are allowed to admit and write up H&Ps for patients needing observation or admitting to the ICU (for old school orthog docs). I currently know of a single degree PP OMS who is struggling to get his privileges granted at our hospital. This is a rare occurrence, and he's likely going to be granted privileges at another institution so it won't really matter.
just my .02 - hope it helps
Wait! Hold on second! You are currently in a 4 year track? Or you want to do an 4 year track? So, you started this post to determine if you should go back and complete an MD after your OMFS residency? Why wouldn’t you ask that question? I think the vast majority would tell you not to do that and only do an integrated residency/MD. Go back to previous threads, to include this one, and you will see the same discussion and the same outcome…certain people that want to do, are currently in, or completed a particular track get so mad/angry…typically, it’s one sided…I am not sure why…but this topic will always fire up certain folks…For God sake people, 4 vs 6 it does not matter…it’s a personal choice…leave it at that…be happy!
D1 this topic is old and worn out…put your big boy (or girl) pants on do some real research and make a decision if getting the MD is worth it to you or a complete waste of time and useless to get. You don’t need a MD…Get one if you want one. This thread/topic on SDN is always a complete waste of time…same discussion over and over…stop trolling!
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deleted1203555
My comment was just directed in response VDW’s post.
I have no problem with vast majority of dual degree surgeons and have tons of great colleagues who are dual degree.
I think the track worked out well for yourself. If you don’t care about the lost income and extra two years of school then go for it.
Like I said earlier - my comment was just directed to the other poster. I have nothing against the vast majority of dual degree oral surgeons. They are great colleagues and I think the track is great for those who want the MD.
This is the first I’ve heard of this. As you said this is rare. Personally I can’t speak on behalf of anyone else except myself. This wouldn’t be a reason for me to consider a dual degree program because of this one rare case.
My friend - you’re still in residency. You haven’t worked a day in your life outside of your schooling.
Just wait until you come out. You will realize that a significant portion of oral surgeons don’t even want hospital privileges (and don’t even have them). We’re too busy serving our communities in our own offices. The vast majority of oral surgeons (both single and dual degree) don’t do any hospital cases period.
OP is such a troll. I know he told us recently he takes maxillary third molars out while sitting down and with a mouth mirror. Let’s hope that was also a troll job
It's also nice to have the MD so people can clearly know you're an OMFS, rather than have to dig through your website. Especially in today's age when you go on instagram and there are GPs doing all on X. How do I know who's who until digging through your site. But again these are all personal things.
Our training, both 4 and 6 year, is substantially different than any other dentist or dental specialist. We've all given so much our lives busting our ass, draining pus all night, and our degree should reflect that. Whether you feel its worth the money or not is a different story.
Our training, both 4 and 6 year, is substantially different than any other dentist or dental specialist. We've all given so much our lives busting our ass, draining pus all night, and our degree should reflect that. Whether you feel its worth the money or not is a different story.
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deleted1203555
I would never have even posted in this thread had I known this was an omfs resident that started it.
I thought he was a dental student.
All reasonable questions. I’m not trolling. @Allsmiles! Yes, I’ve removed third molars sitting. My dental school OS did it his whole career. Yes, I use a mouth mirror for root tips. So much emotion stirring. Perhaps it’s time to close the thread, no one is offering any further clarification of what the use of the MD is.
Lol. There's just not much to add to this topic. But I think we may have helped out dental students who are unsure which route to take. We did good everyone, I am proud of all of us for tackling this topic, I think we should be hired by AAOMS to see what other topics there are to handle.
This is the A team. I nominate D1Bound as our captain, and ToothNumber32 as his right hand man. I look forward to our next debate!
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deleted1203555
Have fun in med school.
Hopefully your attendings let you cut your cases and not make you retract and suction for 6 years.
I’m just messing with you. Your just upset that there isn’t any objective benefits to an having MD that would benefit 99 percent of oral surgeons.
Chill out.
I’m out.
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Bro… I named 2 very reasonable points and you didn’t respond to either of them
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deleted783936
Bout time. Could yall imagine being some 40 year old attending oral surgeon and still being angry you don’t have an MD and finding the time to post about it in some antiquated website?
Idk man. Seems likes he is still fighting this battle.
I saw em
For some reason the anger comes from one side…4 year…I’m not sure why.
@D1Bound you are trolling because you should have asked what you are really trying to figure out. Based on what you said, you are currently in a 4 year OMFS residency and you are now wondering if it’s worth considering going back to MD school after residency. You would get a completely different discussion that may help you make an informed decision…not another 4 vs 6 argument. Because 4 vs 6 and 4 than completing MD are three different things. 6 years are set up differently based on the program. Certain 6 year programs are really good at integrating MD requirements and certain MD requirements are different based on the medical school. For example, M1/M2 vs M3/M4 or 24 months of medical school vs only 16. These are big differences and changes one’s perspective if a 6 year is worth it and which program is best for the individual. What you are dealing with is a whole different issue…completing a 4 year residency and than going back to medical school…no thank you! I’ll take a 16 month path to my MD…thank you very much! What ever you do…make your decision and move on. If you don’t complete an MD (in your boat I personally would not) and get use to being angry about people who earned an MD.
Why would I get angry about someone else who earned a medical degree?
You seem emotional. It doesn’t matter to the discussion where I am in my path or when I would pursue it. I asked what its advantage is. Unless someone has more legitimate comments about the advantage of the MD this thread should be closed.
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A negative to getting an MD is that my family members now ask me why they have leg pain. It used to only be about mouth problems smh.
Seriously, is that your go to…why so emotional…I think that’s the third time you used it in this thread alone…bro…emotional over silly stuff discussed in a thread by people I don’t know…don’t you live in the real world. FYI…when you use that line, “you seem emotional” it shows a lack of emotional intelligence on your part…that, in reality, you lost the point and you have nothing else to add to the discussion.
Why will you be angry…you will…I can tell.
Meanwhile…some perio reading this thread is really enjoying OMFS eating their own.
Big Hoss
Big Hoss
I’d like the ability to practice abroad, even though I’d probably never do it…bro…..
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deleted1157770
I am a 6 year dude and do not have this experience at all. Sure, some of the residents have some jealousy of their 4 year friends the last 2 years, but at my program I know 0 people regretting their choice - not all are wealthy or married rich, either. I wish I was wealthy or married rich, but I still have no regrets. Maybe it is also because I am at a program I absolutely love and have met friends for life. I know most residents at the programs I interviewed at rarely hung out outside of work, which seems miserable to me.
I agree fully though. I have not met a single person who regrets the MD route after residency. We all make a ton of money at the end of the road, regardless of the route you take.
Getting an MD has an added benefit... you can have an army of NP's and PA's to do income generating procedures for you and you can be a medical director for whatever industry/medical specialty needs a medical director like medspas, renal centers, etc... Make money without doing anything but putting your name out there. I wish I had an MD, but then again, you can easily hire an MD for cheap to be your "medical director".
Edit: Not just NP's and PA's, but medical assistants/RN's/LVN/CNA too in certain states.
Edit: Not just NP's and PA's, but medical assistants/RN's/LVN/CNA too in certain states.
That's a cool reason. Thank you for this comment!
I'm doing the 6yr because I like medicine and want to have a nice foundation in it for life both in and outside of work, and I wanted 2 years to enjoy life, probably find a girl. Currently studying while tanning by the pool meeting new people
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I feel like this is the OP and this is how he’s asking his question
Ultimately, whether or not you do the 4 or 6 year program depends on how well you do on the CBSE. Yes, there are some people with very high CBSE scores that end up doing 4 year programs, but a large proportion of people who do 4 year programs tend to have lower CBSE scores.
4 year programs are getting more applicants, but that doesn’t mean they’re getting more applicants with higher CBSE scores. I have friends at both types of programs. In 6 year programs, everyone who interviews has at least the minimum passing score for step 1. No exceptions really. At 4 year programs, people with CBSEs in the 40s and 50s still get interviews.
To any applicants reading this, do yourself a huge favor and do well on the CBSE. Keep your options open. We’ve had a lot of awesome externs, and it stinks when I hear them say that they have a low CBSE score because I know there are cutoffs due to the need to pass Step 1.
4 year programs are getting more applicants, but that doesn’t mean they’re getting more applicants with higher CBSE scores. I have friends at both types of programs. In 6 year programs, everyone who interviews has at least the minimum passing score for step 1. No exceptions really. At 4 year programs, people with CBSEs in the 40s and 50s still get interviews.
To any applicants reading this, do yourself a huge favor and do well on the CBSE. Keep your options open. We’ve had a lot of awesome externs, and it stinks when I hear them say that they have a low CBSE score because I know there are cutoffs due to the need to pass Step 1.
0bliqueridge
Full Member
People that matched at desirable 4 years this last cycle had really high CBSE scores, higher than 6 year people I know
What's going on here? Dental school is much more competitive now, seems like lots more book smart people are choosing this field than when I went in the stone ages. Why would there be more failing to meet the med school requirements?
atosennim
New Member
Who is the 4 year that you know who has a healthy head and neck practice? (Genuinely curious. I also understand that’s not representative of 99 percent of OMS).
Also I know you posted asking for good resources for medical education earlier this year… med school theoretically could be a good resource.
I think it’s true that all specialties in medicine are incredibly individual in their education at the residency point. One could say that a neurologist doesn’t need to do OB, or ORTHO doesn’t need to do family med rotations, or learn certain aspects of medicine. However the unifying factor between those professions is in their standardized education. None of these specialities are making efforts to circumvent major portions of their education simply to make money quicker or shy away from certain aspects of their education despite its possible future lack of “literal” application.
I think if medical education had no value you would find residencies advocating for fast tracking students into residencies to avoid certain aspects of medical education. However in that realm you just end up with the APP model which depending who you ask who may get different takes on. I won’t comment on that here, but I would like to view myself on the physician side of this not the APP side based on my training.
(No hate to APP colleges just trying to draw some parallels for conversation sake on here to elucidate my thoughts.)
Also I know you posted asking for good resources for medical education earlier this year… med school theoretically could be a good resource.
I think it’s true that all specialties in medicine are incredibly individual in their education at the residency point. One could say that a neurologist doesn’t need to do OB, or ORTHO doesn’t need to do family med rotations, or learn certain aspects of medicine. However the unifying factor between those professions is in their standardized education. None of these specialities are making efforts to circumvent major portions of their education simply to make money quicker or shy away from certain aspects of their education despite its possible future lack of “literal” application.
I think if medical education had no value you would find residencies advocating for fast tracking students into residencies to avoid certain aspects of medical education. However in that realm you just end up with the APP model which depending who you ask who may get different takes on. I won’t comment on that here, but I would like to view myself on the physician side of this not the APP side based on my training.
(No hate to APP colleges just trying to draw some parallels for conversation sake on here to elucidate my thoughts.)
I think the "book smart" emphasis on getting into dental school, and then succeeding in dental school amongst that pool, is weeding out down to earth, normal people who play by the rules and do what they're told. This leaves a lot more naturally intelligent people who are entitled or have some sort of mental illness/personality disorder who can't seem to do what they need to do to stay on track.
While this is just my opinion, I also think it was much easier to hold someone back/kick them out of dental school back in your day vs my day vs now. This leads to a generation of people who probably got away with a lot in dental school that would've gotten you kicked out, and learned there aren't many consequences for their actions and then keep pushing boundaries while in residency/med school
0bliqueridge
Full Member
cmon lol
first of all, some elite medical schools are trying to shorten their education, letting people graduate in 3 years to give them another year to do research and match a competitive specialty.
Second, if you think other surgical specialties prefer or want a longer path to making money youre kidding yourself. If you give an orthopedic surgeon the chance to do 2 years of med school instead of 4 you think they would turn it down for the sake of standardized education? Just for example, the Urology programs that are 6 year are significantly less desirable than 5-year programs.
BTW, Im not saying theres no value to 6 year OMFS programs. The MD is obviously a valuable degree for many reasons.
atosennim
New Member
That is true that some med schools may shorten or expedite certain portions of their education to then give students more time to research, more Ai's etc. However, they are not shortening the board exams required to graduate, shelf exams, major block courses required, etc.
they are just increasing the workload in the first year that is often titrated in comparison to year 2 for most MD programs. I understand your comment about shorter programs (urology example) and can compare with say integrated vs. non integrated plastics. Most people would desire to be integrated. However in this case you are comparing people who will have the exact same degree. Additionally, an individual’s desire to finish training as early as feasible vs. a profession’s obligation to uphold standards of training are different points.
The point I am trying to make with standardized education to combat some of the rhetoric on this post is that money and a difference of a year or two is not the only important thing in life. If shortening education and just pulling wisdom teeth on ASA 1's, or doing all on x, is the ultimate goal, why not do perio? Why not do general dentistry and just take "advanced" CE courses. By choosing to do oral surgery you perceived, or at least at one point perceived, a difference in training between general, perio, and OMS. I think if you can get behind that logic, which I’m sure everyone here can... then you can also get behind one's perceived value in an MD.
It’s interesting you talk about “shortening education” when presumably referring to 4 year programs, when in reality 4 years have been the standard for most of our specialty’s history, and 6 year programs are a recent addition that just lengthen it.
And saying “just pulling wisdom teeth on ASA 1s and doing AOX” to prove your point is another interesting choice considering that is what the overwhelming majority of 4 and 6 year grads do
atosennim
New Member
full disclosure: shortening education was not an affront to 4 year residencies. Both 4/6 year tracks do a 4 year residency. I was referencing and making comments relevant to the post I was tagging. I do stand by the idea that I see value in an MD but that is not what I was referencing in that comment there.
I do know that vast majority of grads do just that: "pulling wisdom teeth on ASA 1s and doing AOX". Im not belittling that, it's a great service to our communities and much needed care. But it does beget the question: why not do perio? why not do general? I'm curious your response to that.
People who do perio and general do those surgeries as well (and offer moderate sedation that is likely sufficient for an ASA 1). They do less time in residency/school and start working earlier, making VERY good money, which seems to be the biggest comment people make in the 4 vs. 6 year debate. So... once again... I am curious for someone who aligns with that style of thinking... why not perio? or general?
0bliqueridge
Full Member
What do you like in oral surgery? If you want to do head and neck and have an MD why not do otolaryngology?
atosennim
New Member
I think I have done a decent job giving long answers and asking poignant questions but instead of answering them, people just ask other questions.
I like the scope of oral surgery. I like trauma, orthogs, dentoalveolar, benign and malignant path. If you don't like those things enough to practice them and will only practice teeth and dentoalveolar titanium. Once again I ask: why not perio. why not general?
0bliqueridge
Full Member
Almost all of those things are core OMFS that our specialty practiced and pioneered before the MD was an option
Idk where you guys live where there are enough ASA I patients and people who can afford All-On-X to fill anyone's schedule lol
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Perio and GPs get plenty of airway training for sedation, right?
I thought OMS was first started by medical doctors? I think Simon Hullihen, MD, DDS is considered to be, the “first US oral surgeon”…also, James Garretson, MD/DDS played a significant role in OMFS…some say, he was the “father of OMFS”. So, your post is not entirely accurate…”before the MD was an option.” With that said, OMFS with only a DDS/DMD have done marvelous work and help establish a foothold in OR procedures that we do today. The “pioneers” that you speak of…If I would to guess, they would be a bit disappointed that people argue about 4 vs 6 and not doing more OR procedures.
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Chat GPT says dentists
So, you are actually trying to dispute what I wrote…LOL…Look again. Also, try your best to have a serious discussion about this topic…try and control your natural instincts to troll and not contribute to a discussion in a serious way…in more plain talk…c’mon bro…do better.
