(Serious) Why do 4th year students need supervision but midlevels don't?

[762513]

Well, looks like the argument is lost. Attacking spelling now. Known plenty of brilliant attendings that can't spell to save their lives.

Careful, the people defending NP’s seem to be finding themselves on probationary status, while the medical students can be as rude and disrespectful as they want. I guess we know what this forum is all about. Good luck everyone.

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[VA Hopeful Dr]

Careful, the people defending NP’s seem to be finding themselves on probationary status, while the medical students can be as rude and disrespectful as they want. I guess we know what this forum is all about. Good luck everyone.

Yes, we do. It's in the name: "Student Doctor Network".

 

[762513]

Yes, we do. It's in the name: "Student Doctor Network".

Thanks for confirming the thought police are out in force suspending opposing viewpoints. I wouldn’t be proud of that, myself.

 

[psychMDhopefully]

This thread is lost now, just like the country.

 

[W19]

This thread is lost now, just like the country.

#MAGA

 

[Goro]

#MSDNGA

FTFY

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Thanks for confirming the thought police are out in force suspending opposing viewpoints. I wouldn’t be proud of that, myself.

Yes, it's clearly the thought police for wanting to keep the site's purpose intact.

Grow up.

 

[Big Bad Byron]

when are they going to build the damn wall?

 

[Chibucks15]

when are they going to build the damn wall?

What?...you've gone across threads and added literally nothing useful. And if its trolling its a pathetic attempt

 

[dpmd]

Careful, the people defending NP’s seem to be finding themselves on probationary status, while the medical students can be as rude and disrespectful as they want. I guess we know what this forum is all about. Good luck everyone.

I doubt that it is a moderator bias against people defending NP's. More likely the number of people on one side of the issue in this subforum exceeds the number of people on the other side and the reporting of posts varies accordingly. That or your definition of rude and disrespectful varies when it is directed at you/people you agree with rather than against people you disagree with.

 

[Chibucks15]

I doubt that it is a moderator bias against people defending NP's. More likely the number of people on one side of the issue in this subforum exceeds the number of people on the other side and the reporting of posts varies accordingly. That or your definition of rude and disrespectful varies when it is directed at you/people you agree with rather than against people you disagree with.

It's the latter...he can dish it out but can't take it for a second

 

[dpmd]

It's the latter...he can dish it out but can't take it for a second

Well, lots of people are like that which means in med student forum people are more likely to report different stuff than what would get reported in a nursing forum.

 

[dpmd]

and if it doesn't get reported it is basically like it doesn't exist for the mods

 

[Psai]

Careful, the people defending NP’s seem to be finding themselves on probationary status, while the medical students can be as rude and disrespectful as they want. I guess we know what this forum is all about. Good luck everyone.

Yeah because if we went to everynurse.com we wouldn't be banned for posting the way you do

 

[RNtoMD87]

Okay, this is getting pathetic. We are not only adults, but hopefully the majority of us will be Doctors. Let's get back to thoughtful debate rather than this sh--posting.

 

[RNthenDoc]

A Med student practicing as a mid level is scary. A boarded, graduated MD who’s finished step 2/level 2 w/ physician oversight? Less scary.

Missouri Advisory Commission for Physician Assistants

Each one of the NP-bashing threads comes down to the same points:

1. The vast majority of midlevels are great, practice safely, and add to the healthcare community

2. Some graduates of certain programs come out with little clinical experience, and the educational standards need to be tightened up considerably. The number of sketchy graduates will rise, as there is tons of money to be made.

I think we can all agree on the above two points. However, EVERY one of these threads becomes a pissing match of medical students (many of whom would crap themselves if faced with a real clinical emergency) vs. veteran healthcare professionals who have suffered compassion fatigue for long enough to not like their experience and intellect to be denigrated by unlicensed kids.

We can all get along, and we can all push for reasonable, thoughtful educational reform to standardize the quality of APRN education.

While we are at it, it sure sounds like we need to continue doing the same for MD/DO schools, if so many of the clinicals topics are to be believed. Guess the issues aren’t native to one field...



...As a humorous aside, these same arguments happen on the nursing website between LPNs vs. ADN-RN vs. BSN-RN vs. MSN-RN vs. MS-APRN vs. DONP vs. PHD, etc.

As in, all of the same lines. All of them.

 

[Oso]

Hey guys just checking in to make sure this thread is still going nowhere.


Perfect.

 

[Psai]

Okay, this is getting pathetic. We are not only adults, but hopefully the majority of us will be Doctors. Let's get back to thoughtful debate rather than this sh--posting.

Already a doctor, thanks.

 

[psychMDhopefully]

We can all get along, and we can all push for reasonable, thoughtful educational reform to standardize the quality of APRN education.

While we are at it, it sure sounds like we need to continue doing the same for MD/DO schools

MD and DO training is already extremely rigorous, PA training is probably ok, NP training has no floor, lax standards, and degree mills abound.

 

[RNthenDoc]

MD and DO training is already extremely rigorous, PA training is probably ok, NP training has no floor, lax standards, and degree mills abound.

No floor? Completely false.

At the *very* *VERY* least, an APRN program requires passing the NCLEX-RN and NP boards.

That is a pass/fail licensure with two stops.

The floor isn’t high enough, I absolutely agree. But to say that there isn’t one when there is clearly one is silly, and does a disservice to the argument.

 

[W19]

MD and DO training is already extremely rigorous, PA training is probably ok, NP training has no floor, lax standards, and degree mills abound.

Translation:

MD = DO > PA >>>>>>>> NP

 

[W19]

No floor? Completely false.

At the *very* *VERY* least, an APRN program requires passing the NCLEX-RN and NP boards.

That is a pass/fail licensure with two stops.

The floor isn’t high enough, I absolutely agree. But to say that there isn’t one when there is clearly one is silly, and does a disservice to the argument.

Almost anyone can pass these exams...

 

[Psai]

No floor? Completely false.

At the *very* *VERY* least, an APRN program requires passing the NCLEX-RN and NP boards.

That is a pass/fail licensure with two stops.

The floor isn’t high enough, I absolutely agree. But to say that there isn’t one when there is clearly one is silly, and does a disservice to the argument.

The NCLEX stops when you've answered enough questions properly to pass. That's a joke test. And np "boards" are nothing but a sad mockery of real boards.

 

[GrignardsReagent]

No floor? Completely false.

At the *very* *VERY* least, an APRN program requires passing the NCLEX-RN and NP boards.

That is a pass/fail licensure with two stops.

The floor isn’t high enough, I absolutely agree. But to say that there isn’t one when there is clearly one is silly, and does a disservice to the argument.

How would passing the NCLEX show someone has the knowledge to diagnosis and treat? Geniuely curious here.

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[RNthenDoc]

Almost anyone can pass these exams...

Still a floor, though, isn’t it?

(Also, saying that almost anyone can pass them is simply patently false.)

I’m sure some people could pass COMLEX-1 just by studying the same way Med students do, do you disagree?

 

[W19]

Still a floor, though, isn’t it?

(Also, saying that almost anyone can pass them is simply patently false.)

I’m sure some people could pass COMLEX-1 just by studying the same way Med students do, do you disagree?

Not sure what you mean here. But you have to get into med school first and complete MS1/2 to sit for COMLEX1... Not an easy thing.

 

[RNthenDoc]

How would passing the NCLEX show someone has the knowledge to diagnosis and treat? Geniuely curious here.

Sent from my SM-G955U using SDN mobile

NCLEX-RN gives you RN licensure (you can only do nursing diagnoses); once you have advanced practice training you sit for Practitioner boards (that’s the diagnosing and treating part).

 

[RNthenDoc]

Not sure what you mean here. But you have to get into med school first and complete MS1/2 to sit for COMLEX1... Not an easy thing.

You also have to get into RN school to take NCLEX?! Lol.

 

[W19]

You also have to get into RN school to take NCLEX?! Lol.

But getting into nursing school is easy

 

[RNthenDoc]

But getting into nursing school is easy

Getting into a bad nursing school is easy.

Getting into nursing school is one of the more competitive undergraduate programs.

I’m not offended by your ignorance, but if you seriously believe that getting into UF school of nursing is easy, I’d encourage you to speak to some of their students.

 

[W19]

Getting into a bad nursing school is easy.

Getting into nursing school is one of the more competitive undergraduate programs.

I’m not offended by your ignorance, but if you seriously believe that getting into UF school of nursing is easy, I’d encourage you to speak to some of their students.

Lol... Remember that I am (or was) a RN who went to a state university in FL... So you are not going to tell what nursing school/students are like..

 

[RNthenDoc]

Lol... Remember that I am a RN who went to a state university in FL... So you are not going to tell what nursing students are like..

I also graduated from nursing school in Florida.

And I’ve been accepted to 5 medical schools.

So as far as knowing how competitive the respective programs are, I feel qualified to say so.

 

[W19]

I also graduated from nursing school in Florida.

And I’ve been accepted to 5 medical schools.

So as far as knowing how competitive the respective programs are, I feel qualified to say so.

Maybe you are... But I did not think nursing school was difficult... Not bragging but I worked 4o hrs/wk while doing nursing. In fact, I was a manager at a grocery store while attending nursing school, and I maintained a GPA to get into med school. I have been just the average Joe at the bottom 10 US MD school. The two things are not comparable.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Maybe you are... But I did not think nursing school was difficult... Not bragging but I worked 4o hrs/wk while doing nursing. In fact, I was a manager at Winn-Dixie while going to nursing school, and I maintained a GPA to get into med school. I have been just the average Joe at the bottom 10 US MD school. The two things are not comparable.

You’re trying to compare an undergraduate program to a very difficult doctorate. Please stop. That’s very silly.

I was able to complete premed while working in a high-stress acute care environment, does that mean premed is easy?

 

[libertyyne]

You’re trying to compare an undergraduate program to a very difficult doctorate. Please stop. That’s very silly.

I was able to complete premed while working in a high-stress acute care environment, does that mean premed is easy?

Maybe after actually going through medical school you will be able to relate to concerns in the community over NP independence.

 

[W19]

You’re trying to compare an undergraduate program to a very difficult doctorate. Please stop. That’s very silly.

I was able to complete premed while working in a high-stress acute care environment, does that mean premed is easy?

Lol... 3 days/wk job. High stress acute care !

My point was getting into a US med school is somewhat the bottleneck to become a doc...while almost ANYONE can get into nursing school.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Maybe after actually going through medical school you will be able to relate to concerns in the community over NP independence.

In 2 months I’ll never post on SDN again, and will be surrendering my license. Someone else can pick up the torch who has a dog in the fight. LOL.

Lol... 3 days/wk job. High stress acute care !

My point was getting into a US med school is somewhat the bottleneck to be a doc...while almost ANYONE can get into nursing school.

Not almost anyone can get into nursing school. Do a little digging and you’ll see that.

You can roll your eyes at my career if you’d like. Your opinion doesn’t matter to me in the least.

 

[libertyyne]

In 2 months I’ll never post on SDN again, and will be surrendering my license. Someone else can pick up the torch who has a dog in the fight. LOL.



Not almost anyone can get into nursing school. Do a little digging and you’ll see that.

You can roll your eyes at my career if you’d like. Your opinion doesn’t matter to me in the least.

Its weird that you are even posting in this thread then, since you are neither an NP nor a medical student yet. Somehow not having a dog in this fight hasnt held you back so far.

 

[W19]

In 2 months I’ll never post on SDN again, and will be surrendering my license. Someone else can pick up the torch who has a dog in the fight. LOL.



Not almost anyone can get into nursing school. Do a little digging and you’ll see that.

You can roll your eyes at my career if you’d like. Your opinion doesn’t matter to me in the least.

Nothing against nurses... There is a shady nursing school in very corner of south FL right now... You and I probably attended good nursing schools, but that does not negate the fact that getting into nursing school is extremely easy.

Let me spell it to you: I know LPN who never attended RN school and they were able to sit for the RN board... Of course they had to give the owner of that school a huge amount of $$$$

 

[RNtoMD87]

Already a doctor, thanks.

I mean the ones doing the whining and complaining. I know many are already residents and attendings.

Also, all I can speak on is nursing, because I have not finished pre-med or beyond- but the statement that anyone can get into nursing school or pass is utterly false. My nursing program had 35 spots per YEAR, and had over 150 applicants. And we had about 5 people drop out each year. They were allowed to attempt again a second year. If they failed again, they were done. Out.

Several people who graduated with me two years ago, or the year after me have still not gotten their license. These are very bright people who had straight A's in college, but are having a hard time passing the test. I did not have much trouble with the test, but many highly intelligent people had trouble with the NCLEX or clinical nursing skills.

 

[libertyyne]

I mean the ones doing the whining and complaining. I know many are already residents and attendings.

Are you an NP, MD or medical student?

 

[RNtoMD87]

Are you an NP, MD or medical student?

I am a premed RN. I'm simply saying people need to conduct themselves in a professional manner. We're damned adults. Professionals. There's too many ad hominems and fit pitching. Having an opinion is fine, but all I'm saying is grow up and have logical arguments and not resort to childish attacks.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Already a doctor, thanks.

Also curious, "50 years of board certified E. Medicine"

Does that make you 76+ years old?

 

[762513]

I am a premed RN. I'm simply saying people need to conduct themselves in a professional manner. We're damned adults. Professionals. There's too many ad hominems and fit pitching. Having an opinion is fine, but all I'm saying is grow up and have logical arguments and not resort to childish attacks.

You won’t find that here, and if you dare to defend your profession your account will be suddenly put on probation while people hurl insults at you far worse than anything you ever said. Let them have their echo chamber they don’t care about other viewpoints.

 

[libertyyne]

You won’t find that here, and if you dare to defend your profession your account will be suddenly put on probation while people hurl insults at you far worse than anything you ever said. Let them have their echo chamber they don’t care about other viewpoints.

If the mods wanted to suppress your voice for "defending your profession" couldn't they just ban you rather than allowing you to continue to post?

 

[762513]

I honestly don't get this. A third year med student will have far more knowledge than a typical NP/PA. Only thing they lack is familiarity with the work setting.
So why are 4th year students supervised to such a degree yet midlevels can suddenly practice independently with a tiny fraction of the knowledge.

In more simple terms, why are students on rotations reduced to glorified shadowers when (far less competent) midlevels can go ahead and practice? The former carries so much liability risk for some reason yet the latter doesn't?

I’m going to try this one more time.

The OP states, the typical NP is inferior to the 3rd year unboarded, unlicensed and untrained medical student.

The reality is, the average NP has over 11 years in practice and is 49 years old (AANP - NP Fact Sheet) The typical NP has many years as a RN prior to becoming an NP. In no fantasy world is the “typical” NP/PA, the words the OP used, inferior to a 3rd or even a 4th year medical student.

 

[Forever Geebs]

I’m going to try this one more time.

The OP states, the typical NP is inferior to the 3rd year unboarded, unlicensed and untrained non physician medical student.

The reality is, the average NP has over 11 years in practice and is 49 years old (AANP - NP Fact Sheet) The typical NP has many years as a RN prior to becoming an NP. In no fantasy world is the “typical” NP/PA, the words the OP used, inferior to a 3rd or even a 4th year medical student.

Some times ppl need to vent for a variety of reasons. OP and many others on this thread, those that physicians in training or physicians themselves, can likely relate in one way or another. It’s this reason why OP posted to this specific sub-forum.

But for whatever reason, those defending “the other side” come out of the wood work and take this to the next level. It’s unnecessary and proves nothing other than the desire for those that are not physicians (or physicians in training) to defend why they are on par, superior than, etc. than MS3/MS4’s.

Folks that are RN’s, NP’s, PA’s that have been offended and felt the need to fuel the fire: do you feel you’ve proven a point or accomplished anything? Odds are it’s only a moral victory because it likely hasn’t moved the OP and changed his/her opinion on the matter. This is an anonymous forum, everyone is entitled to post and share their opinion, and all that fun stuff, but let’s be honest with ourselves: the concern is valid, your argument has been heard, and everyone will continue down their chosen path.

Everyone plays a role and there’s no need to get defensive and argue for arguments sake because at the end of the day, you all likely are of the same mindset as you were before participating in this arduous thread/topic.

That said, I took a break from studying to spend too many minutes reading and replying. It was entertaining though.


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[libertyyne]

I’m going to try this one more time.

The OP states, the typical NP is inferior to the 3rd year unboarded, unlicensed and untrained medical student.

The reality is, the average NP has over 11 years in practice and is 49 years old (AANP - NP Fact Sheet) The typical NP has many years as a RN prior to becoming an NP. In no fantasy world is the “typical” NP/PA, the words the OP used, inferior to a 3rd or even a 4th year medical student.

Being 49 does not mean they have decades of nursing experience.

 

[762513]

Being 49 does not mean they have decades of nursing experience.

You are completely ignoring the 11 years of NP experience, and continue to only cherry pick to troll me. I’m done. You win.

 

[libertyyne]

You are completely ignoring the 11 years of NP experience, and continue to only cherry pick to troll me. I’m done. You win.

It seems like you are misreading that. It means that the average np has been a nurse practioner for 11 years. Not that the average np had 11 years of experience before becoming an np.

• Nurse Practitioners have been in practice an average of 11 years 3