SGU MD admission

[Rhabdoviridae]

Enrollment and Demographics - School of Medicine | St. George's University

Oh excuse me.....75% get accepted post interview instead of 70%. Thank you for taking the time to upload a chart to correct me on that super important discrepancy.

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[Lawpy]

Don't go to the Caribbean. Read these posts to learn why:

gonnif's Analysis of the Caribbean Route (read this carefully and in detail to know why going to the Caribbean is a very bad idea)

WedgeDawg's Argument Against Going to Medical School in the Caribbean (see also: Caribbean Cycle Theory)

 

[gonnif]

But what you said was
But how you come across, anyone who scores a 500 on there mcat and has a 3.0 GPA is pathetic and shouldn't be aloud to become a physician and these are the kind of students SGU picks, which is far from the truth. If you want to inform pre-meds then give an honest opinion not your carib bios attitude.

SGU Reports in 2017 Average MCAT is 23 which is equal to about a 496. Besides being low is suspect as the new MCAT has been now in use for 2.5 years.
GPA average is self reported at 3.3 overall, 3.2 science.


Enrollment and Demographics - School of Medicine | St. George's University

 

[gonnif]

Oh excuse me.....75% get accepted post interview instead of 70%. Thank you for taking the time to upload a chart to correct me on that super important discrepancy.

Just trying to keep the numbers as reported by the school.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

SGU Reports in 2017 Average MCAT is 23 which is equal to about a 496. Besides being low is suspect as the new MCAT has been now in use for 2.5 years.
GPA average is self reported at 3.3 overall, 3.2 science.


Enrollment and Demographics - School of Medicine | St. George's University
View attachment 224346

View attachment 224347

Additionally, with AAMC stating that a 500 MCAT is the threshold for being likely to successfully complete medical school, having a mean of 496 is pretty bad. That means they are willingly taking many students who have very little hope of completing med school, which is then seen in their terrible attrition and match rates.

 

[gonnif]

Additionally, with AAMC stating that a 500 MCAT is the threshold for being likely to successfully complete medical school, having a mean of 496 is pretty bad. That means they are willingly taking many students who have very little hope of completing med school, which is then seen in their terrible attrition and match rates.

I wish I could get a breakdown on the applicants - matriculants. I suspect there is a fraction of reasonable MD candiates with MCAT/GPA who didnt apply broadly/widely and simply went to SGU in same cycle.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The interview at SGU usually is by associate admissions director/recruiter or, more commonly, alumni doctor where their basic tenet do you think the applicant has basic skill set that may make a good physician. I have not seen their review sheet in several years but it was

I wish I could get a breakdown on the applicants - matriculants. I suspect there is a fraction of reasonable MD candiates with MCAT/GPA who didnt apply broadly/widely and simply went to SGU in same cycle.

Yeah, same. Seeing that the mean is 496, at least some of their applicants are at least in DO range, and some are likely within range of MD schools if they just applied strategically.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

But what you said was
But how you come across, anyone who scores a 500 on there mcat and has a 3.0 GPA is pathetic and shouldn't be aloud to become a physician and these are the kind of students SGU picks, which is far from the truth. If you want to inform pre-meds then give an honest opinion not your carib bios attitude.

I suggest re-reading the thread because I never made that comment, that was someone else.

But I do consider averages of 3.3/3.2/496 for a medical school as abysmal. If those are the averages then that means half the class has stats less than that and they have no business being a physician, and shame on the school for accepting such individuals never intending for them to finish and to simply be a tuition check until they fail out.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I suggest re-reading the thread because I never made that comment, that was someone else.

But I do consider averages of 3.3/3.2/496 for a medical school as abysmal. If those are the averages then that means half the class has stats less than that and they have no business being a physician, and shame on the school for accepting such individuals never intending for them to finish and to simply be a tuition check until they fail out.

Unless the scores don't follow a normal distribution. If they have a 15% attrition rate and then only like a 60-70% match rate, or whatever it is, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a small number of outliers skewing the mean.

 

[Goro]

Don't go to the Caribbean. Read these posts to learn why:

gonnif's Analysis of the Caribbean Route (read this carefully and in detail to know why going to the Caribbean is a very bad idea)

WedgeDawg's Argument Against Going to Medical School in the Caribbean (see also: Caribbean Cycle Theory)

To this add:
Million $ Mistake

Medical School at SGU

As long as you have a pulse and can write an up-front tuition check, chances are excellent.

The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.


Quoting the always wise gyngyn:
The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.


Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of US med schools that will reward reinvention.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib threshing machine (like Skip Intro or mikkus, who are open about the risks entailed above and do not try to justify risky choices) into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?


BTW, from the PD survey (2016; http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf) just looking at at ALL specialties, DOs have a much greater chance of being interviewed and ranked at ACGME residency programs. [will do so "often" 52 vs 35% for former; 53 vs 36% for latter, page 7].

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

I suggest re-reading the thread because I never made that comment, that was someone else.

But I do consider averages of 3.3/3.2/496 for a medical school as abysmal. If those are the averages then that means half the class has stats less than that and they have no business being a physician, and shame on the school for accepting such individuals never intending for them to finish and to simply be a tuition check until they fail out.

Funny because that those are roughly the average stats of many of the DO school matriculants whom you vehemently defend.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Funny because that those are roughly the average stats of many of the DO school matriculants whom you vehemently defend.

In 2016, the mean sGPA for DO matriculants was 3.50 and a 3.56 overall. If you only include undergraduate work, that goes to a 3.45 and a 3.54. Not quite the 3.3/3.2 you're talking about. Also, the mean MCAT was a 502, which is more than a standard deviation above a 496 (SD 5.56). Now a 502 isn't amazing, but it is above the AAMC threshold for likely success in medical school, while a 496 is most certainly not.

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-s...riculant-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=10

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

In 2016, the mean sGPA for DO matriculants was 3.50 and a 3.56 overall. If you only include undergraduate work, that goes to a 3.45 and a 3.54. Not quite the 3.3/3.2 you're talking about. Also, the mean MCAT was a 502, which is more than a standard deviation above a 496 (SD 5.56). Now a 502 isn't amazing, but it is above the AAMC threshold for likely success in medical school, while a 496 is most certainly not.

http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-s...riculant-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=10

At the DO school I used to attend during orientation we were told that the average GPA was a 3.3 (they didn't break down science vs non science) and the average MCAT was a 25 (old scale). Granted this was one of the newer osteopathic schools, but was merely two years ago so I would guess that some DO programs still have averages around this.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

At the DO school I used to attend during orientation we were told that the average GPA was a 3.3 (they didn't break down science vs non science) and the average MCAT was a 25 (old scale). Granted this was one of the newer osteopathic schools, but was merely two years ago so I would guess that some DO programs still have averages around this.

The link I posted includes pre-2015 MCAT scores, and the mean for matriculants is a 26.72 (the median is 27.00), so fairly close. Using @efle's score converter, a 26.72 would be ~502, which makes sense. So that's still well above the 496 SGU reports (again, more than a standard deviation above).

Edit: Also, the means reported in that link are across all schools. A newer school will likely have a lower mean GPA for a few years, lowering the overall mean. It doesn't include median, so I don't know how much.

 

[altblue]

I consider applicants with MCAT below 500 and GPA under 3.2 "absolutely abysmal" stats. These are SGU's peeps.



Low-tier MD? No way. Maybe the newer DO programs

Alright, but I'd imagine a 2.9, SMP and 514+ could possibly get into a low tier md school. This assumes a reasonably good mcat retake

EDIT: Enrollment and Demographics - School of Medicine | St. George's University The average GPA is like a 3.2-3.3, which is much higher than I expected. So it's just a matter of 1-2 years fixing their admittedly very poor MCAT, doing a post-bacc/SMP and getting ECs in order for DO and possibly MD

 

[efle]

Something I think should be said:

Even down in the 3.3/23 bins, 95%+ of USMD students are able to (eventually) pass step 1. Even remains true for MCAT scores of 18-20. Similarly only about 5% end up getting academically dismissed from their medical school.

We all like to think this is a career for the best and brightest, but in reality you can be below-average in these areas and remain overwhelmingly likely to clear the hurdles of getting the degree and passing the steps. The level of academic capability USMD (or the more established DO programs) adcoms usually expect is way, way above what is actually necessary.

So it's not just as simple as saying Caribbean programs are admitting students with stats too low to expect success.

 

[TheWolfOfMainStreet]

For the people who think we're mad at Caribbean grads...

Imagine this is a football game and we need 3 points to win. The opposition is kicking to us...what are our options?

1) The receiver returns the ball all the way across the field for a touchdown. That's MD.
2) We take several sets of downs and slowly move it up the field and then kick a field goal. That's DO.
3) We throw a Hail Mary and hope for the best. That's Caribbean.

All three have an appropriate place in the game. We're not against any option specifically, but you have to time it right.

If you've tried everything and couldn't get into US MD/DO and wanted to go Caribbean, we get it.

If you're throwing hail Mary's on first down or trying to throw it on fourth from field goal range because you want the glory of a touchdown when a field goal would easily win the game, then yeah, we're annoyed. That's because you're letting vanity or stupidity cloud your judgement instead of keeping your eyes on the prize.

 

[Anonimus.Maximus]

I think the only thing they look at is making sure your check doesn’t bounce

This isn't true. Three quarters of those who apply still get turned down. That's why the other offshore schools are able to stay in business.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Funny because that those are roughly the average stats of many of the DO school matriculants whom you vehemently defend.

Not really. A 496 is extremely low for an average, and the only DO school that is reportedly even kind of close to that is NYIT-AR

At the DO school I used to attend during orientation we were told that the average GPA was a 3.3 (they didn't break down science vs non science) and the average MCAT was a 25 (old scale). Granted this was one of the newer osteopathic schools, but was merely two years ago so I would guess that some DO programs still have averages around this.

And don't think we are giving crappy DO schools a free pass, I vehemently oppose the opening of crappy DO schools as well. But the honest truth is that even grads from those schools are way more likely to find a residency spot than someone entering the Carib.

So it's not just as simple as saying Caribbean programs are admitting students with stats too low to expect success.

Eh not we aren't talking about 23 type MCATs as the ones that are trouble. I'm talking about the sub-495 people they accept. My school accepts a few people every year with very low MCATs because they like the people and they fit the mission. They struggle even in a very supportive environment, put those students in the unforgiving Carib? They wouldn't make it to second year. And this is what we see happen.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Dead or dying applicants can't pay.

Totally not cool that you can be dead and vote in Chicago, but can't be dead and get into SGU.

 

[gonnif]

Totally not cool that you can be dead and vote in Chicago, but can't be dead and get into SGU.

Of course you can, they need cadavers too!

And remember, as they say in Chicago, vote early and often

 

[WingedOx]

I have nothing against those who graduate and become practicing physicians, they are just like any other doc. The problem with the Carib is the very predatory nature of the schools, the terrible attrition, and absolutely brutal match rates.

The Carib is a last ditch Hail Mary, and should only be suggested to those students who have tried every other option first. It is disingenuous to suggest it to pre-meds who haven't tried the much safer options first.

I never understand people who take it as a personal insult when people point out problems with their chosen academic institution. It just reeks of immaturity.

People who've followed me on here for a while know I've had a lot of very non-positive things to say about the LCME school that I attended.

 

[Goro]

I never understand people who take it as a personal insult when people point out problems with their chosen academic institution. It just reeks of immaturity.

People who've followed me on here for a while know I've had a lot of very non-positive things to say about the LCME school that I attended.

People want affirmation of their choices, even if they're bad/highly risky ones.

 

[WingedOx]

People want affirmation of their choices, even if they're bad/highly risky ones.

The single most important part of my job is doing risk assessment. There's a reason why I'm going to be negative to someone who can't do it for themselves.

 

[sliceofbread136]

This isn't true. Three quarters of those who apply still get turned down. That's why the other offshore schools are able to stay in business.

Wow that’s a lot of bounced checks

 

[gonnif]

This isn't true. Three quarters of those who apply still get turned down. That's why the other offshore schools are able to stay in business.

Wow that’s a lot of bounced checks

Per SGU's website
100 apply
57 get interviewed
43 get accepted (75% of interviewed)
24 matriculate (55% of accepted)

In comparison, this is 5-10 times the matriculation rate of US MD

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

Per SGU's website
100 apply
57 get interviewed
43 get accepted (75% of interviewed)
24 matriculate (55% of accepted)

In comparison, this is 5-10 times the matriculation rate of US MD

It's all relative. A 43% percent acceptance rate is lower than the acceptance rate of a vast majority of undergraduate universities. I guess by your logic NYU, UCSD, and Brandeis will also take anyone with a pulse as well.

 

[gonnif]

It's all relative. A 43% percent acceptance rate is lower than the acceptance rate of a vast majority of undergraduate universities. I guess by your logic NYU, UCSD, and Brandeis will also take anyone with a pulse as well.

Yes all relative except of course that we are talking about medical schools so connecting this UG institutions is relatively silly

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

Yes all relative except of course that we are talking about medical schools so connecting this UG institutions is relatively silly

One thing that has never ceased to amaze me since I first became interested in this profession is the way in which it is routinely put on a pedestal by others. Being a physician is just another job that most people with an average amount of intelligence are capable of practicing. I have no idea why it has become a racket for people with elitist, chauvinistic tendencies.

 

[Goro]

Choice-supportive bias - Wikipedia

Just because you were a huge ****** who decided to transfer from DO to a SGU does not give you the right to give others the faulty and outright wrong advice about Carribean schools. Kindly **** off.

PMS, I love the post, but do try to not get squashed by the Banhammer! TOS violation and all that.

If we posit that medical education is a racket, then it has turned into an art form by the Carib schools.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

To supplement my less informative post, please read my thread about why you should not go to the Carribean. If you are there now and would like to refute the facts I presented in my post, Id looove to hear it. The Caribbean Catch-22

 

[gonnif]

One thing that has never ceased to amaze me since I first became interested in this profession is the way in which it is routinely put on a pedestal by others. Being a physician is just another job that most people with an average amount of intelligence are capable of practicing. I have no idea why it has become a racket for people with elitist, chauvinistic tendencies.

Well we are discussing medical schools so comparing them sense, unlike your tirad. You may have notice that I deal with the data provided by SGU trying to keep to the facts and discussion at hand. You may also notice that I frequently say while I am not a fan of these off shore schools but I do not rule them out. I just want to make sure that prospective students see these school with open eyes.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

Choice-supportive bias - Wikipedia

Just because you were a huge ****** who decided to transfer from DO to SGU does not give you the right to give others the faulty and outright wrong advice about Carribean schools. Kindly **** off.

You got some guts to talk to me that way about my medical school decisions considering that you are just a delusional pre-med wannabe at this point. What, do you somehow actually think that you are qualified to give advice on a topic like this? I am perhaps the only sdn user (or one of very few) at this time who has experienced studying at both a stateside and offshore medical school. Since most of what is on this forum about this topic is just propaganda from starry-eyed premeds like yourself who all think you are going to go to Harvard Medical School (Princeton doesn't even have a medical school FYI), I would say my input is immeasurably more valuable than yours.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

why do you fools want to go to medical school so badly anyway. become an unfirable circulating nurse or better yet a page-happy ED/urgicare NP and crush the souls of your betters while collecting better pay and sweet sweet union pension.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

PMS, I love the post, but do try to not get squashed by the Banhammer! TOS violation and all that.

If we posit that medical education is a racket, then it has turned into an art form by the Carib schools.

Hmm, perhaps this guy didn't learn his lesson on respecting the TOS the first time. Maybe he needs another vacation or whatever he calls it.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I am perhaps the only sdn user (or one of very few) at this time who has experienced studying at both a stateside and offshore medical school.

Lol, you have no experience studying at an offshore school. You made the worst decision in SDN history, stop trying to get others to do the same. Your only experience with SGU is maximum two-three months of rotations.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

Lol, you have no experience studying at an offshore school. You made the worst decision in SDN history, stop trying to get others to do the same. Your only experience with SGU is maximum two-three months of rotations.

Seems pretty hypocritical of you to say that no? I literally saw you commending a post earlier today titled ("a taste of medicine" or something like that) written about some guy's experiences in medical school since he started not even 2 months ago. Considering your last comment to me, I guess now you are going to have to go back and tell him that he too has no experience studying in medical school. LMAO

 

[darkjedi]

...you are going to go to Harvard Medical School (Princeton doesn't even have a medical school FYI), I would say my input is immeasurably more valuable than yours...

lol this freaking guy

acts all superior to the premeds but disregards all the administration and practicing physicians

listen buddy, its your life and while you made a god awful decision, it was your poor decision to make and your money to lose. You can't fault us for trying to protect other naive premeds from the same bad choices though.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Seems pretty hypocritical of you to say that no? I literally saw you commending a post earlier today titled ("a taste of medicine" or something like that) written about some guy's experiences in medical school since he started not even 2 months ago. Considering your last comment to me, I guess now you are going to have to go back and tell him that he too has no experience studying in medical school. LMAO

Lol you made the claim you studied at an offshore school, how are your stateside rotations in American hospitals giving you any offshore school studying experience? Oh that's right, none.

 

[Rhabdoviridae]

Lol you made the claim you studied at an offshore school, how are your stateside rotations in American hospitals giving you any offshore school studying experience? Oh that's right, none.

It's through an offshore program, regardless if I am currently in the US. That is what I meant.

 

[Lucca]

Closing thread.