Shadowing an Ad-Com Director...

[insane]

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I thought I would never make one of these posts, about how I'm shadowing and need help and blah blah blah. But here is my story:

I emailed a medical student I knew about shadowing and he told me to contact Dr. X. So I shot of an email to Dr.X who informed me that he was currently really busy and that I should email Dr.Y so I email Dr.Y. Dr.Y says to call his secretary and schedule an appointment, I do that, and learn that Dr. Y is also the Chair of the Medical School Admissions Committee 😱😱😱

So anyone with any advice on how not to completely butcher the experience, and hopefully come away with a LOR.

Dress: The secretary told me to show up early and that I would be scrubbing, I plan to wear khakis, a dress shirt, sweater, and wool coat. it is cold here.

 

[VillageShaman]

Jake, it's real simple. I want you to learn from the inside I want you to gain their trust.
Report back to me when you find the location of the legendary "transferable acceptance letter."

 

[insane]

Jake, it's real simple. I want you to learn from the inside I want you to gain their trust.
Report back to me when you find the location of the legendary "transferable acceptance letter."

First day shadowing is Monday the 11th, I shall report back when I find the legendary "transferable acceptance letter."

 

[rockaction]

sounds like a good opportunity to get on the good side of a powerful person. don't screw it up.

but I have a question:

why would you try to get an LOR from this doc? when you apply to that school, you'd be sending a letter from Dr. Y to Dr. Y to read. that seems really weird and almost like a conflict of interest.

and in general, it's been said that LORs from doctors you shadow usually aren't substantial or insightful. all they can say is "he/she had great posture" or "he/she seems really interested in medicine" (that's what the PS is for, right?)

the extent of this being helpful is at this particular school. so play nice, be cool, and this person might let you in if you are a qualified applicant otherwise.

 

[insane]

sounds like a good opportunity to get on the good side of a powerful person. don't screw it up.

but I have a question:

why would you try to get an LOR from this doc? when you apply to that school, you'd be sending a letter from Dr. Y to Dr. Y to read. that seems really weird and almost like a conflict of interest.

and in general, it's been said that LORs from doctors you shadow usually aren't substantial or insightful. all they can say is "he/she had great posture" or "he/she seems really interested in medicine" (that's what the PS is for, right?)

the extent of this being helpful is at this particular school. so play nice, be cool, and this person might let you in if you are a qualified applicant otherwise.

You make a good point, so I should take this essentially as a prolonged interview period?

 

[diosa428]

#1 - wear a tie.
#2 - "you will be scrubbing" means you'll be going into surgery. Do you know what type of surgeon he is? It would be helpful if you knew something about the cases you were going to see so you could read about them but I'm guessing you don't have access to that information. Assuming you'll be shadowing him more than once, it might be helpful at the end of the first day to ask him what you should be reading about. If you find out, for example, that he is a cardiothoracic surgeon, it might be good beforehand to just familiarize yourself with the type of cases they do (thoracotomy, CABG, etc).
#3 - I agree, it is not standard to get LORs from people you shadow, and if you do they rarely offer anything substantial. LORs should be from PhDs or MDs who taught your classes, or who you worked with doing research. They can also be from employers (less common).

 

[nonsciencemajor]

This is not residency selection... this is med school admission

if you dont have the grades and/or MCAT it wont help....

for residency though, assuming you are an American Medical Graduate, and work with a PD, then MAYBE it can compensate for a low USMLE Score and/or bad grades if the PD likes you...

but again, for med school admissions it wont work....

I maybe totally wrong though... just stating what I believe

 

[diosa428]

Also, I'm guessing you don't know how to scrub? Be really, really nice to the scrub nurse and she might help you out. First of all, you'll have to change into scrubs (they will give you some, either normal ones or paper ones to put over your clothes). Your hair will go under a cap. You'll need to take off any jewelry (no watches or rings or anything else on your hands or wrists). When you go into the OR, introduce yourself to the scrub nurse, tell her you're new and ask where you can get yourself gloves and a gown. If she's nice, she'll help you get them. You'll probably need to know your glove size, which you'll have to guess (ask someone what theirs is to give yourself an idea - most females are 6-7, idk what males are). Then you go scrub. I'd wait and go scrub with the Dr you're shadowing the first day so you know how to do it correctly. After you scrub, don't touch ANYTHING, keep your hands up, with your elbows down, and watch the Dr dry his hands and get gowned and gloved. Then do the same. If you've told the scrub nurse you're new, she'll give you directions.

 

[Antibodies]

Also, I'm guessing you don't know how to scrub? Be really, really nice to the scrub nurse and she might help you out. First of all, you'll have to change into scrubs (they will give you some, either normal ones or paper ones to put over your clothes). Your hair will go under a cap. You'll need to take off any jewelry (no watches or rings or anything else on your hands or wrists). When you go into the OR, introduce yourself to the scrub nurse, tell her you're new and ask where you can get yourself gloves and a gown. If she's nice, she'll help you get them. You'll probably need to know your glove size, which you'll have to guess (ask someone what theirs is to give yourself an idea - most females are 6-7, idk what males are). Then you go scrub. I'd wait and go scrub with the Dr you're shadowing the first day so you know how to do it correctly. After you scrub, don't touch ANYTHING, keep your hands up, with your elbows down, and watch the Dr dry his hands and get gowned and gloved. Then do the same. If you've told the scrub nurse you're new, she'll give you directions.

The OP isn't actually going to do the surgery. Just stand there and watch. I doubt he even needs to wash his hands.

 

[Antibodies]

This is not residency selection... this is med school admission

if you dont have the grades and/or MCAT it wont help....

for residency though, assuming you are an American Medical Graduate, and work with a PD, then MAYBE it can compensate for a low USMLE Score and/or bad grades if the PD likes you...

but again, for med school admissions it wont work....

I maybe totally wrong though... just stating what I believe

And yeah, you are wrong. Sure the grades and MCAT matter. But when the OP will apply to that school there will be hundreds of others with the same grades and MCATs. But OP will have name recognition. It is quiet a big plus if the Dean of Admissions knows you and has interacted with you.

 

[scapermoya]

And yeah, you are wrong. Sure the grades and MCAT matter. But when the OP will apply to that school there will be hundreds of others with the same grades and MCATs. But OP will have name recognition. It is quiet a big plus if the Dean of Admissions knows you and has interacted with you.

that might not necessarily be a good thing.

 

[diosa428]

The OP isn't actually going to do the surgery. Just stand there and watch. I doubt he even needs to wash his hands.

Obviously a premed isn't going to DO surgery. But his original post states that the secretary told him he would be scrubbing. Therefore, I'd anticipate that it is very possible that he will, in fact, have to wash his hands.

 

[Antibodies]

Obviously a premed isn't going to DO surgery. But his original post states that the secretary told him he would be scrubbing. Therefore, I'd anticipate that it is very possible that he will, in fact, have to wash his hands.

When I shadowed as a pre-med, "scrubbing" meant I will get to shadow into surgery. I never had to (or even got to) wash my hands. If you aren't in the sterile field, which OP won't be in, then you dont need to wash your hands. Nurses, radiology techs, anesthesiologists always walk in and out of the OR without the hand washing.

 

[diosa428]

When I shadowed as a pre-med, "scrubbing" meant I will get to shadow into surgery. I never had to (or even got to) wash my hands. If you aren't in the sterile field, which OP won't be in, then you dont need to wash your hands. Nurses, radiology techs, anesthesiologists always walk in and out of the OR without the hand washing.

Well then whoever told you you were "scrubbing" was using the term incorrectly. Perhaps the secretary is also using the term incorrectly, but to people in the medical profession, scrubbing does not mean "standing over by the wall watching". If my attending or resident told me I was scrubbing in, I'd better be damn ready, with scrubs, hair cover, mask, gloves and a gown.

 

[rockaction]

And yeah, you are wrong. Sure the grades and MCAT matter. But when the OP will apply to that school there will be hundreds of others with the same grades and MCATs. But OP will have name recognition. It is quiet a big plus if the Dean of Admissions knows you and has interacted with you.

agreed. I think it's a "tipping of the scale" situation...if the applicant is about average/competitive for the school, it might tip admission into applicant's favor

 

[insane]

Noticed a lot of similar questions so I will try my best to answer them,

1. I am competitive for the school GPA wise, my MCAT is in August.

2. I will be washing my hands.

3. By scrubbing the secretary said the whole hog, gloves and all.

4. He has it arranged for me to shadow him from around 8:00 AM - 1:30 PM, and then to shadow a medical school student for a lecture, and then meet with him and another member of the adcom to discuss applying the future, and what I am doing currently and what I need to do to get in.

5. The school is probably my first choice school.

From the advice I have gotten pretty much, make a good impression, forget about the LOR, and read up on the field he does surgery in.

 

[gmreed2]

This is all very good advice and you have a wonderful opportunity; the average applicant would be quite jealous. Your screen name is appropriate to the situation.

I agree with diosa428 - you should be ready to scrub in fully. Be sure not to get in the way of people (physically) in the Operating Room, but don't be afraid to ask questions either. I have scrubbed in a few times and the Doc would basically walk me through step by step what he was doing and why he was doing it. The other techs didn't care much, and he was even wasting some time by pointing things out and describing.

Do not touch anything at all unless told to do so, otherwise they'll have to re-sanitize what was touched and log the contamination in the surgery report. Diosa428 says keep your elbows down and hands up; you should also keep your hands close to your chest as well. Other than that it should be a great experience.

I think you should go for the LOR if it becomes a long term thing, but obveriously you'd discuss this with him/her and the implications if it comes to it.

 

[DendWrite]

Tip: don't be too nervous when going into the OR. Eat a GOOD meal beforehand. I'm not saying this to like, make fun of you or anything, but in my experience it was really easy to get lightheaded. Normally the sight of blood does not phase me, I don't get queasy or anything thinking about it, but something about the combination of the smell / temperature / lots of people in a small room can tend to make you react kind of funny. Especially if you are gloving up and getting to feel around in there.

Main things though, just stay cool, eat a really good meal, don't lock your knees. If you start to get dizzy at all, just do some deep breathing or what have you. And, if worse comes to worse, it's MUCH better to say that you have to "step out for a moment" or "sit down" rather than faint and threaten the sterile field or otherwise make a mess of things.

Again, I say this with no knowledge of your previous volunteering experience (maybe you've shadowed tons of surgeries before), but it sounds like it's a pretty "make or break" day for you, and I know that my first time shadowing during a surgery I got quite lightheaded and had to step out of the room.

Best of luck...it sounds like you have a good opportunity. I'd say just be personable, don't act like you are trying too hard. If you are, as you say, qualified grade-wise, I think the best thing you can do is just try and be likeable, interested, and in general a nice guy to be around.

 

[insane]

First time shadowing. I have about 180 hours volunteering in a Level 1 trauma center, I have seen plenty of blood.

 

[DendWrite]

First time shadowing. I have about 180 hours volunteering in a Level 1 trauma center, I have seen plenty of blood.

Yeah, you'll be fine. I hope I didn't come across as offensive or anything...just some friendly advice. Have fun!

 

[insane]

Yeah, you'll be fine. I hope I didn't come across as offensive or anything...just some friendly advice. Have fun!

Always happy to get good advice.

 

[diosa428]

First time shadowing. I have about 180 hours volunteering in a Level 1 trauma center, I have seen plenty of blood.

It's not the sight of blood that makes most people lightheaded/pass out during surgery, it's the temperature. Sometimes the rooms are hot, and you have on a very hot surgical gown + gloves + a cap, and you're standing for a long time, and you can't really move b/c you have to stay in the surgical field.

I agree, eat a good breakfast and drink some water before you go in (I used to drink an entire bottle of water every day before my surgery rotation). DON'T drink too much coffee unless you have a bladder of steel. It doesn't sound like you'll be in the OR very long, so it shouldn't be too bad, but you don't want to have to scrub out b/c you need to use the bathroom.

 

[runrunrudolph1]

pubmed.com

find his articles, read them if you can understand them and try to bring one up and discuss it. I did this once (per advice of a trauma surgeon I shadowed) and the doctor was impressed. But don't BS it, be genuinely interested in what they wrote, they spent months if not years getting the research finished and published so they really do hold it near and dear to their heart.

Besides that, now that you have an in, take advantage of the situation-- ask him honestly-- what do I need to do to get from where I am now, to a matriculated student at this school.


good luck!!

 

[insane]

Okay so quick recap/cool points of the day.

Went in the morning, changed into regular scrubs, rounded the ICU with the doctor. "scrubbed in" observed a small (approx. 2-2.5 hourish) surgery. Sat down for a little talk, he told me the weaknesses that exist in my current application (need more volunteer hours that are not medically related for the community) and that I needed to add some research. Then he sent me to lunch with a medical student, and the student gave me a tour, and I got to meet some of the medical school professors. Afterwords we went back to his office, and as he showed me out he asked me if I was interested in doing research with him, and that he would email me the details....this is absurd...doing research with an adcom director.

tips that helped:
reading his articles on pubmed
wearing a tie
eating a good breakfast
staying out of the way.

 

[zeppelinpage4]

Okay so quick recap/cool points of the day.

Went in the morning, changed into regular scrubs, rounded the ICU with the doctor. "scrubbed in" observed a small (approx. 2-2.5 hourish) surgery. Sat down for a little talk, he told me the weaknesses that exist in my current application (need more volunteer hours that are not medically related for the community) and that I needed to add some research. Then he sent me to lunch with a medical student, and the student gave me a tour, and I got to meet some of the medical school professors. Afterwords we went back to his office, and as he showed me out he asked me if I was interested in doing research with him, and that he would email me the details....this is absurd...doing research with an adcom director.

tips that helped:
reading his articles on pubmed
wearing a tie
eating a good breakfast
staying out of the way.

😱

...good job...

 

[Sean Shukoor]

which school is this by the way?

 

[MacBookMD]

congrats!! this is a great opportunity on many levels