Shadowing - point of diminishing return?

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It really doesn't matter that much. I'd think it was pretty weird if someone shadowed an endless amount, but if you really want to, just do it. It's your life.

And I did get an LOR from an ER doc I shadowed maybe 30 hours, because UWisc had a specific requirement for an LOR - not from a professor, PI, or pre-med advisor - so I just asked him for it. I got the letter, and I got accepted, so it must not have been that big of a deal.
 
First, I will assert, with the utmost confidence, that those of you who claim to have to have witnessed and understand all that you basically could in your 10-30 hours of shadowing are overwhelmingly ignorant to the intricacies/spontaneity of our chosen profession.
Oh boy, here it comes.

Even in all my time of shadowing I was learning new procedures, techniques, and treatments. Towards the end of my cardiology rotation-after watching about 120 heart catheterizations- the lead invent-cardiologist gave me several opportunities to actually partake in the procedure through teaching me-hands on- how to thread different wires through the arteries and inflate angioplasty balloons in order to place stents. The type of experience is invaluable.
you mean, a pre-med doesn't learn everything to know just by shadowing?

Needless, to say this letter carried much weight with adcoms-some top 15 schools.
Of course, it did. This is SDN.

And my stats were not incredible-3.6 GPA 39S on the MCAT.
ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
 
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I can only guess how pleased the stent patients (or the hospital) would be on hearing of your invaluable experience during their surgery. I would suggest that this is simply reckless. There is no legitimate reason for you to be doing this other than poor judgement by both you and the surgeon. The surgeon should definitely get their malpractice insurance coverage raised, along with their premiums. Hope you're not shadowing in my state. There is a proper time for exposure to the practice of medicine and for learning medical techniques, you should stay with the former for now and avoid putting patients at risk.

The patient was sleeping. How will they sue, the hospital isn't going to tell on itself. Dr does what Dr wants.
 
Personally I enjoy doing things rather than watching other people do them. I've done my fair share of shadowing (About 30-40 hours or so), and I definitely think I got some valuable experiences out of it, like listening in on pre-op patient discussions for the ped. cardiology department, but at a certain point I think the time is better spent doing something that benefits someone else, or society in general (i.e. meaningful volunteering).

But that's just my personal preference....
 
i didnt learn everything from the pediatrician in 10 hours, but i got a good feel for it, which is the whole point of shadowing. you dont enter a career just because you enjoy rare on-the-job occurrences and small details (which would take hundreds of hours of shadowing to finally grasp)...you choose something based on the general feel. that is exactly what i got after 10 hours of shadowing. nothing more, nothing less.
 
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I think I should clarify a bit here imer---you are grossly misunderstanding what I stated in my post-

All the prior caths I had watched were from behind a the glass observation window. Finally, after 120 procedures, the invent brought me into to actually scrub in full on and stand next to him at the operating table. By "partaking hands on" i meant that I was at the table with him as he showed me---NOT ALLOWED ME---the proper method through which to utilize the wires. Further, he let me partake in the process by asking my to identify possible stenoses and blockages.

I agree with you.-- I would never have actually accepted an invitation to thread the caths myself!!! lol

sorry for any confusion-but you can rest at ease that the catheterizations of your loved ones are not being performed by pre meds haha.
 
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Maybe because I had zero shadowing hours when I applied last cycle, but I don't quite understand these astronomical numbers that I read some premeds are investing in shadowing. I can see maybe 20 hrs would be helpful, but hundreds?? Isn't there a point of diminishing return? And then I read some get LOR's from a shadowed phys? Does shadowing strengthen your app that much after 20 hrs vs studying more for MCAT, volunteer work, or just relaxing? I don't understand...

I did a bunch of shadowing and for no other reason than because medical schools want me to have it. You know what doctors do. If not, shadow a doctor for an hour, you'll know. They're typing **** on the computer, operating, or seeing patients. No real point in watching them do this over and over and over.

Med schools need to cut this crap out of the requirements. Cut it down to MCAT/GPA/LOR's. The MCAT/GPA will verify your academic ability, and the LOR's will verify that you are somewhat personable.
 
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I asked an adcom member if they would like a letter of update on shadowing that I had done, and she just kind of smilled and said no. I didn't put any shadowing on my app and I would be shocked to find out that it hurt me. Long term shadowing to me is just a way to get into a volunteering spot. Otherwise, I agree that large amounts are pretty crazy when you could be doing some medical community service and still get lots of shadowing experience.

Some people might disagree that you don't learn as much when you volunteer because you aren't with the doc all the time. It has been my experience that I learn as much from the nurses as from the docs. While the docs might have more knowledge and experience than nurses, to a pre-med that difference is like trying to say that Saturn is close and Pluto is far away from the earth. Our knowledge is pretty basic compared to either. So while it was fun to get doc's pulling me to see something interesting, I had a lot of fun chatting with the nurses too.
 
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I think I should clarify a bit here imer---you are grossly misunderstanding what I stated in my post-

All the prior caths I had watched were from behind a the glass observation window. Finally, after 120 procedures, the invent brought me into to actually scrub in full on and stand next to him at the operating table. By "partaking hands on" i meant that I was at the table with him as he showed me---NOT ALLOWED ME---the proper method through which to utilize the wires. Further, he let me partake in the process by asking my to identify possible stenoses and blockages.

I agree with you.-- I would never have actually accepted an invitation to thread the caths myself!!! lol

sorry for any confusion-but you can rest at ease that the catheterizations of your loved ones are not being performed by pre meds haha.
:confused: r u kidding? u had to wait 120 cases before being in the OR? ouch
 
yep 120 sounds like alot-but the cath labs I was in usually performed 10-15 caths a day so it wasn't too terribly long before I got to scrub in.

I dont know what it was about me that he waited 3 weeks to let me get close. Maybe he didn't trust me-maybe I have an unsavory look about me, or maybe he was just being cautious about letting strangers into his OR. lol
 
Hmm, now I get it - you watched something. Great shadowing experience - invaluable. How could I have been so stupid to think "...gave me several opportunities to actually partake in the procedure... hands-on..." means "to watch". I guess the rest of your post was so adamant that I didn't catch the winky-winky at your embellishment(s). Burp. Carry on.

What was it that made him not trust you to get close until you'd watched 120 procedures?

Saying it was hands-on could mean, "Hey hand me that instrument over there, it's called this and I'm going to use it for that," rather than actually using it on the patient. I know in this case it didn't mean that. :)

I asked an adcom member if they would like a letter of update on shadowing that I had done, and she just kind of smilled and said no.

I don't know how indicative that is of whether shadowing is useful or not. Perhaps they had already made a decision, and different schools seem to want different things on updates, if they want any at all.

Long term shadowing to me is just a way to get into a volunteering spot. Otherwise, I agree that large amounts are pretty crazy when you could be doing some medical community service and still get lots of shadowing experience.

Quality medical community service isn't generally easy to get where I've been. It must depend on where you are. But given the choice between following a doctor and organizing files, I think following the doctor is going to be more useful. It really depends more on having some kind of quality medically related experience that helps you understand what doctors do. Unless you manage to find something where you work very closely with doctors, like being a nurse, shadowing is going to teach you more about what it means to be a doctor in a shorter period of time.

Some people might disagree that you don't learn as much when you volunteer because you aren't with the doc all the time. It has been my experience that I learn as much from the nurses as from the docs. While the docs might have more knowledge and experience than nurses, to a pre-med that difference is like trying to say that Saturn is close and Pluto is far away from the earth. Our knowledge is pretty basic compared to either. So while it was fun to get doc's pulling me to see something interesting, I had a lot of fun chatting with the nurses too.

Considering how you'll likely work closely with nurses as a doctor, that's certainly useful, but I don't know if it's a substitute for observing what a doctor does.
 
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