Should DO Schools Grant MDs?

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Should Osteopathic schools grant MDs?

  • Yes, we should unify into one medical degree

    Votes: 89 35.9%

  • No, for historical reasons

    Votes: 7 2.8%

  • No, for other (philosophical, educational, etc) reasons

    Votes: 130 52.4%

  • Haven't given much thought to it

    Votes: 22 8.9%
  • Total voters
    248
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No. We need to be clear about hierarchy and stratification in the medical field. Most DO pre-meds I know truly seek DO schools because of "looser" entry requirements rather than DO's medical philosophy.

And for those who embrace DO's philosophy, the distinction shouldn't really matter right? These pre-meds should be proud to be DO.

P.S. This is made half in jest; I am not very opinionated on this matter.
 
jason3278 said:
I'm sorry, but to me me this sounds the same as saying "If you want a DDS work your way into a DDS school. DMDs are not DDSs"
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I don't know what a DMD is. I assume some loser version of the DDS?

Ah, Doctor of Dental Medicine. Is that an old degree?
 
jason3278 said:
I'm sorry, but to me me this sounds the same as saying "If you want a DDS work your way into a DDS school. DMDs are not DDSs"
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No, DDS and DMD are degrees for the exact same program/curriculum. It's that some schools (Harvard, Penn amongst others) decided way back when to award DMD (Latin: "Dentinariae Medicinae Doctoris") for dental school and MD (Medicinae Doctoris) for medical school. DMD and DDS are the exact same. All US dental schools are accredited by the same body. This cannot be said for MD and DO.

Another example would be in the UK, where they award the MBBS, MBChB or MBBCh, depending on the school. All 3 of those are allopathic degrees, with the same curricula/philosophy/licensing.
 
b-real said:
No, DDS and DMD are degrees for the exact same program/curriculum. It's that some schools (Harvard, Penn amongst others) decided way back when to award DMD (Latin: "Dentinariae Medicinae Doctoris") for dental school and MD (Medicinae Doctoris) for medical school. DMD and DDS are the exact same. All US dental schools are accredited by the same body. This cannot be said for MD and DO.

Another example would be in the UK, where they award the MBBS, MBChB or MBBCh, depending on the school. All 3 of those are allopathic degrees, with the same curricula/philosophy/licensing.
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Well, that's sort of what is at issue here, isn't it? Do we need 2 separate accrediting bodies for 2 "different" professions (which aren't even really different at all). At my school there are two good medical schools, one MD and one DO. Instead of dividing resources between 2 "good" medical schools, wouldn't it make more sense to combine resources to make 1 "great" medical school?
 
i think the two philosophies are pretty different. but i do find that the stigma associated with DO schools is absolutely ridiculous. i would like to see DO schools becoming as competitive as MD schools. i feel like if it were just as difficult to get into a DO school as it is to get into an MD school, there would be no stigma; only two different medical education philosophies. and that is definitely worth preserving.
 
jason3278 said:
Well, that's sort of what is at issue here, isn't it? Do we need 2 separate accrediting bodies for 2 "different" professions (which aren't even really different at all). At my school there are two good medical schools, one MD and one DO. Instead of dividing resources between 2 "good" medical schools, wouldn't it make more sense to combine resources to make 1 "great" medical school?
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That situation is specific for your school, which I'm guessing is MSU. What would be the point in converting all DO programs into MD (I assume you want the better perceived degree to be the one that "counts," as it were)? Would that not cause the DO to lose that which makes it unique?

ETA: your original point was that the DMD was a different degree than the DDS, which it is NOT. The MD and DO ARE DIFFERENT from one another, though they are for the same profession.
 
If it were up to me, I'd just change the name from DO to MDO. Maybe then there'd be less stigma associated with going to a DO school? Most people know they're both the same thing really, but you do occasionally run into the "oh they're not real doctors?" kind. The M makes a hell of a lot of difference to some people.
 
b-real said:
That situation is specific for your school, which I'm guessing is MSU. What would be the point in converting all DO programs into MD (I assume you want the better perceived degree to be the one that "counts," as it were)? Would that not cause the DO to lose that which makes it unique?

ETA: your original point was that the DMD was a different degree than the DDS, which it is NOT. The MD and DO ARE DIFFERENT from one another, though they are for the same profession.
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How are they different? And please don't say "OMM" One course is not enough, IMO, to justify a completely separate degree.

There are probably more differences between different DO schools and different MD schools than there are between the two systems taken together.
 
jason3278 said:
How are they different? And please don't say "OMM" One course is not enough, IMO, to justify a completely separate degree.

There are probably more differences between different DO schools and different MD schools than there are between the two systems taken together.
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You can't arbitrarily make rules on what can or cannot be considered when distinguishing allopathic and osteopathic medicine. Yes, they're all physicians who do the same...yada yada yada. However, osteopathic medicine still, at its core, represents a different philosophy to medicine.

"Osteopathic medicine is a unique form of American medical care that was developed in 1874 by Andrew Taylor Still, M.D., D.O. Dissatisfied with 19th century healthcare, Still founded a philosophy of medicine based on ideas that date back to Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, and which focuses on the unity of the body. Dr. Still pioneered the concept of wellness and identified the musculoskeletal system as a key element of health."

That's from KCOM's-the preeminent osteopathic school's- website. Osteopathic medicine was founded on a different philosophy, period. That's not inconsequential when differentiating degrees. MD does not equal DO in this regard, which, in my opinion, is a fairly significant difference. It does not matter that most osteopathic physicians do not practice OMM. Osteopathic schools are still teaching this philosophy, and that should warrant a separation of degrees. Again, I'm not saying OMM has no merit, but it does represent a philosophical difference.
 
If people are really that concerned about the letters that follow their name, they should go to the school that will grant them the ones they want...

I'm actually surprised more DO students arent sticking up for their programs. It really cheapens the DO degree if they concede to changing their titles to MD.... It would be like admitting that the "MD" is better than "DO". Embrace your uniqueness!

On a side note, I cant see EITHER side wanting to come together and creating a combined degree
 
DRIN said:
What? NPs are former nurses who have had lots of clinical experience.
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There are now programs that don't require any clinical experience, direct RN/NP programs. Lots of people now going into NP programs straight from college.
 
FrickenhugeMD said:
If people are really that concerned about the letters that follow their name, they should go to the school that will grant them the ones they want...

I'm actually surprised more DO students arent sticking up for their programs. It really cheapens the DO degree if they concede to changing their titles to MD.... It would be like admitting that the "MD" is better than "DO". Embrace your uniqueness!

On a side note, I cant see EITHER side wanting to come together and creating a combined degree
Click to expand...

Bingo, that's what this is all about. The chip on the shoulder could not be any bigger.
 
b-real said:
You can't arbitrarily make rules on what can or cannot be considered when distinguishing allopathic and osteopathic medicine. Yes, they're all physicians who do the same...yada yada yada. However, osteopathic medicine still, at its core, represents a different philosophy to medicine.

"Osteopathic medicine is a unique form of American medical care that was developed in 1874 by Andrew Taylor Still, M.D., D.O. Dissatisfied with 19th century healthcare, Still founded a philosophy of medicine based on ideas that date back to Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, and which focuses on the unity of the body. Dr. Still pioneered the concept of wellness and identified the musculoskeletal system as a key element of health."

That's from KCOM's-the preeminent osteopathic school's- website. Osteopathic medicine was founded on a different philosophy, period. That's not inconsequential when differentiating degrees. MD does not equal DO in this regard, which, in my opinion, is a fairly significant difference. It does not matter that most osteopathic physicians do not practice OMM. Osteopathic schools are still teaching this philosophy, and that should warrant a separation of degrees. Again, I'm not saying OMM has no merit, but it does represent a philosophical difference.
Click to expand...

and BU med was originally a homeopathic medical shool, should they give out a different degree too?
 
No one cares what premeds think...
 
FrickenhugeMD said:
If people are really that concerned about the letters that follow their name, they should go to the school that will grant them the ones they want...

I'm actually surprised more DO students arent sticking up for their programs. It really cheapens the DO degree if they concede to changing their titles to MD.... It would be like admitting that the "MD" is better than "DO". Embrace your uniqueness!

On a side note, I cant see EITHER side wanting to come together and creating a combined degree
Click to expand...
There's no need to stick up for my program. Its got a solid reputation with great alumni, powerful connections in my area, and all the bells and whistles of the allopathic institutions in town. Plus, if I were to be an A.T. Still reincarnate, saving my profession from the ignorance of SDN, I would probably develop carpal tunnel syndrome in both wrists, atrophy in my legs, and lightened skin and eye color from a lack of natural light.
 
Wow, there could not be a worse topic asked on these forums.
 
Oh and just IMO ....

I don't think there is any reason to merge or change DO to MD. Plus, it will just never happen. Many, many DO schools could pass LCME cred, but the AOA will never let it happen, so it's moot. If they were ever to do anything, DO curriculum should stay the same and award and MD, DO ... which would be a med degree plus the original 'osteopathy' title (like a masters in osteopathy basically) for all the OMM training. But again, no point.
 
b-real said:
Bingo, that's what this is all about. The chip on the shoulder could not be any bigger.
Click to expand...

I dont see any DO students making a big deal about combining the degrees either. Of all the things we have to worry about (loan debt, NP encroachment, decreased salary, boards, class, getting yelled at by attendings, etc.) defending our profession on a pre-med thread on SDN is not a priority.

I hear about this mythical chip on our shoulders but i dont really see it. If it exists and it motivates students to work harder and perform better then i dont see how it could be a bad thing. I have no regrets about choosing osteopathic medicine and would do it again. Outside of SDN the only really difference between MD and DO is sometimes people dont know what a DO is. Some people are bothered by this, some people take the time to educate people about DO, but I dont really care either way. Ill be a doctor, ill have a job, and ill be competent.
 
i guess i just don't see the necessity for two degrees now. in my mind anyway, it really serves no purpose to have two separate medical degrees, especially since the word "osteopathy" in the DO degree is really there for historical purposes only IMO

oh and if someone brings up academic quals i don't know what to say, except that there are MD schools out there with pretty embarassing numbers.
 
bleargh said:
i guess i just don't see the necessity for two degrees now. in my mind anyway, it really serves no purpose to have two separate medical degrees, especially since the word "osteopathy" in the DO degree is really there for historical purposes only IMO

oh and if someone brings up academic quals i don't know what to say, except that there are MD schools out there with pretty embarassing numbers.
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The AOA doesn't even want "osteopathy" to be used. Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine is what they suggest. (Its one of the few things they've done correctly, recently.)
 
Bacchus said:
The AOA doesn't even want "osteopathy" to be used. Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine is what they suggest. (Its one of the few things they've done correctly, recently.)
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hahaha DOM Bacchus? dom is the same word for don in portuguese.. just found that funny =)
 
Bacchus said:
The AOA doesn't even want "osteopathy" to be used. Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine is what they suggest. (Its one of the few things they've done correctly, recently.)
Click to expand...

Yup. Osteopathy is an outdated term.

And I agree with WD about the 'chip.' Almost all DO med students I've met are happy, hardworking, and confident. I've spoken with probably somewhere between 20-30 IRL and countless on the internet and I never see the 'I COULD GET INTO AN MD SCHOOL/DOS ARE JUST AS GOOD AN MD' attitude that this 'chip' would be associated with. As I'm making the transition into medical school as well ... I realize how pointless this stuff really is. It seriously does not matter one freaking bit. There is an unbelievable amount of stuff to deal with in medical school, and the letters behind your name are, frankly, not one of them.

I could seriously rant for hours about 'how DOs are identical in practice' or 'DOs can take the USMLE and match well into ACGME' or 'I know a DO who said ...', but like I said before ... I don't care. It's so asinine. If people want to lurk in online forums and make a big deal out of it ... be my guest. I don't know how any med student would even have the time, so my guess is that the majority of these comments come from pre-meds, so have fun. I used to get wrapped up in these things all the time ... but it just does not matter. So let this one burn into a mess with pre-meds making quips, other pre-meds firing back, logical posts being deconstructed, trolls ripping away, etc etc. In the mean time, my guess is that DO and MD med students will continue to study their brains out and maybe occasionally log on and roll their eyes at this absurd mess.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Yup. Osteopathy is an outdated term.

And I agree with WD about the 'chip.' Almost all DO med students I've met are happy, hardworking, and confident. I've spoken with probably somewhere between 20-30 IRL and countless on the internet and I never see the 'I COULD GET INTO AN MD SCHOOL/DOS ARE JUST AS GOOD AN MD' attitude that this 'chip' would be associated with. As I'm making the transition into medical school as well ... I realize how pointless this stuff really is. It seriously does not matter one freaking bit. There is an unbelievable amount of stuff to deal with in medical school, and the letters behind your name are, frankly, not one of them.

I could seriously rant for hours about 'how DOs are identical in practice' or 'DOs can take the USMLE and match well into ACGME' or 'I know a DO who said ...', but like I said before ... I don't care. It's so asinine. If people want to lurk in online forums and make a big deal out of it ... be my guest. I don't know how any med student would even have the time, so my guess is that the majority of these comments come from pre-meds, so have fun. I used to get wrapped up in these things all the time ... but it just does not matter. So let this one burn into a mess with pre-meds making quips, other pre-meds firing back, logical posts being deconstructed, trolls ripping away, etc etc. In the mean time, my guess is that DO and MD med students will continue to study their brains out and maybe occasionally log on and roll their eyes at this absurd mess.
Click to expand...
man i'm getting kind of tired of the "only premeds care about this crap" attitude. premeds become med students. if it matters to premeds it will impact med school one way or another.
 
bleargh said:
man i'm getting kind of tired of the "only premeds care about this crap" attitude. premeds become med students. if it matters to premeds it will impact med school one way or another.
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Not if they grow the hell up. I hope to god doctors don't act like pre-meds. I've seen pre-meds do some of the most absurd, cut-throat things ever, and I could never imagine a professional adult acting in that manner. So no, it shouldn't matter.
 
why are you trying to change something that isn't broken?
it's just a title

DOs are everywhere.
if you're concerned about the 'stigma', they will always have some sort of stigma no matter what as long as their admission standards don't compare with their peers.

let them dish out MDs instead and then you'll just develop a tiered system of medical schools, those that were originally MD and those that were formerly DO.
 
Waysensei said:
Hello all! I am currently a 2nd year OMS and I am unhappy with the 3rd year rotations that my school is assigning me. I would like to rotate @ teaching hospitals, but due to certain circumstances, there aren't many opportunities. There is one affiliated hospital but I will only be able to rotate there for a limited number of months and the remainder will be at small community clinics that I don't feel will be very educational. For example, one of the rotations will be under a NURSE PRACTITIONER in a free health clinic. I don't want to be stuck with rotations like this and would like to transfer to another school where I can be put into a large hospital setting that are established for teaching. I know there has to be demanding circumstances in order for me to transfer, but I think that getting poor clinical experience during year 3 is as good a reason as any! I want to specialize in Neurology and do not want my 3rd year clinicals to be limited to community health centers. I would like to transfer to another med school as a 3rd year, be it allopathic or osteopathic. Any advice on how I can make this happen would be welcome.
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this is straight out from DO forum.

you will never get crap like this in a USMD school. There are definitely disparity in education between DO and MD in some cases, mostly in their clincial years.
 
MSSM2013 said:
this is straight out from DO forum.

you will never get crap like this in a USMD school. There are definitely disparity in education between DO and MD in some cases, mostly in their clincial years.
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That school's mission is also for that specific purpose if you read further in the thread. Also, if you visit the allopathic or clinical rotations forum, you'll see someone asking if its appropriate to have a Nurse Practitioner as a preceptor at an MD rotation site. So, there ya go.
 
Bacchus said:
That school's mission is also for that specific purpose if you read further in the thread. Also, if you visit the allopathic or clinical rotations forum, you'll see someone asking if its appropriate to have a Nurse Practitioner as a preceptor at an MD rotation site. So, there ya go.
Click to expand...

the MD person asked about clincial experiences in year 1 and 2. I have yet to find a MD school that has clinical portion that are precepted by NPs.

It's hard to argue that the overall quality of clinical education of DO schools, especially newer DO schools, don't compare favorably to MD schools.
 
Bacchus said:
There's no need to stick up for my program. Its got a solid reputation with great alumni, powerful connections in my area, and all the bells and whistles of the allopathic institutions in town. Plus, if I were to be an A.T. Still reincarnate, saving my profession from the ignorance of SDN, I would probably develop carpal tunnel syndrome in both wrists, atrophy in my legs, and lightened skin and eye color from a lack of natural light.
Click to expand...
For you MSSM.
 
Peace.

Everyone has their own points here that are good.

I hope no one takes their status or even perceived status to demean another group they deem weaker or lesser.

In actually medical communities it really isn't very important what the letters are, people look at you as a person and they see how good you are at what you do. A dissatisfied, uninspired, mistaken-ridden doctor looks bad always and a professional, positive, exceptional doctor looks great always regardless of letters.

This really is a debate among pre-med and even some med students, yet I would hope that the med students don't look down on the premed and I would hope that the MDs don't look down on the DOs or vice versa just because of some perceived status. In the end we are all unique and we can live peacefully among one another.

We are conditioned to think so much about numbers and stats that the "MD" or "DO" has just become another # or stat. We can overcome this conditioning. I don't see many attendings talking about their MCAT scores, they are focused on medicine and patients not stats. Good luck to all.
 
Bacchus said:
For you MSSM.
Click to expand...


don't get me wrong, I know PCOM and some older DO schools are right up there with allopathic education. My main problem is with some of the newer school without proper clinical education set up. massive expansion inevitably dilutes quality.
 
b-real said:
You can't arbitrarily make rules on what can or cannot be considered when distinguishing allopathic and osteopathic medicine. Yes, they're all physicians who do the same...yada yada yada. However, osteopathic medicine still, at its core, represents a different philosophy to medicine.

"Osteopathic medicine is a unique form of American medical care that was developed in 1874 by Andrew Taylor Still, M.D., D.O. Dissatisfied with 19th century healthcare, Still founded a philosophy of medicine based on ideas that date back to Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, and which focuses on the unity of the body. Dr. Still pioneered the concept of wellness and identified the musculoskeletal system as a key element of health."

That's from KCOM's-the preeminent osteopathic school's- website. Osteopathic medicine was founded on a different philosophy, period. That's not inconsequential when differentiating degrees. MD does not equal DO in this regard, which, in my opinion, is a fairly significant difference. It does not matter that most osteopathic physicians do not practice OMM. Osteopathic schools are still teaching this philosophy, and that should warrant a separation of degrees. Again, I'm not saying OMM has no merit, but it does represent a philosophical difference.
Click to expand...

bleargh said:
and BU med was originally a homeopathic medical shool, should they give out a different degree too?
Click to expand...

Read in its entirety, o wise opinionated premed.
 
muhali3 said:
The only advantage to having an MD is that you can practice internationally and that the degree is more well-recognized than DO. The solution to these problems is not to grant MD degrees to osteopathic students, but to educate patients and other countries that DOs are equivalent to MDs in their ability and skill.
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Uh. Not exactly. Practice rights for DOs are dependent on nation, but under the umbrella of aid/mission work, which most doctors do, you are eligible with either. Also, depending on the country it can be difficult whether you are an MD or DO to enter (any of the EU nations). You have to provide a ton of evidence and under the right circumstances get approved.

MD also has different interpretations by country as well. In Germany you receive the license to practice medicine, but have to do a special thesis in order to be titled a doctor of medicine. There is MBBS, MD, MS...all sorts of stuff. The MD means a higher level of education in some nations.
 
bleargh said:
man i'm getting kind of tired of the "only premeds care about this crap" attitude. premeds become med students. if it matters to premeds it will impact med school one way or another.
Click to expand...

Well, only premeds and old-guard guys do care about this stuff. You are too worried with doing well in school to give a damn about it later. As soon as you think you are better than someone you WILL be taken down a peg. I'm at an MD school and there is NO WAY I think I'm better or brighter than many of my DO counterparts who actually had higher gpa's and MCAT scores than me.

At one time it did matter, but that time is gone. In the 50s and 60s it was a different story. But hell, half the current MD schools created before 1920 or so were homeopathic at one time.
 
MSSM2013 said:
don't get me wrong, I know PCOM and some older DO schools are right up there with allopathic education. My main problem is with some of the newer school without proper clinical education set up. massive expansion inevitably dilutes quality.
Click to expand...

I think there is a pretty big difference between some of the newer schools and older schools. You cant just start a school and get everything right immediately. I think this applies to the new MD schools as well. At least alot of the newer DO schools are branches of already established schools.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Yup. Osteopathy is an outdated term.

And I agree with WD about the 'chip.' Almost all DO med students I've met are happy, hardworking, and confident.
Click to expand...

Wow, you're school is much different than mine. The only people who go DO at my school are those that get denied at MD schools. It's usually people with subpar stats (slackers), or white/asian dudes with average stats. I'm sure that sounds bad, I'm just trying to be honest.
 
MossPoh said:
Well, only premeds and old-guard guys do care about this stuff. You are too worried with doing well in school to give a damn about it later. As soon as you think you are better than someone you WILL be taken down a peg. I'm at an MD school and there is NO WAY I think I'm better or brighter than many of my DO counterparts who actually had higher gpa's and MCAT scores than me.

At one time it did matter, but that time is gone. In the 50s and 60s it was a different story. But hell, half the current MD schools created before 1920 or so were homeopathic at one time.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing that it does matter, but if it doesn't matter whether you're an MD or DO, why does anyone strive to do well in college? Seriously, if a 3.3 and a 27 will get you into medical school (DO), what's the point in stressing while in college? Every university should tell their new pre-meds to take it easy and cruise their way into med school, no need to push yourself for all those years.
 
WDeagle said:
No, because then i would have to be associated with people like this. Most MD students would make pretty good doctors and will probably be great to work with. But the occasional d-bag ruins it for all of them.
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So because I think chiropractors are glorified masseuses I am suddenly a dbag? I am pretty sure i am entitled to my opinion and I have yet to see any studies showing that OMM is more effective than massage for anything. I also have yet to see a study that proves OMM can treat systemic diseases like many chiropractors tout.

I think DOs are great and make amazing medical doctors. However, I don't believe in OMM. I'm sorry if that offends you.
 
halekulani said:
why are you trying to change something that isn't broken?
it's just a title

DOs are everywhere.
if you're concerned about the 'stigma', they will always have some sort of stigma no matter what as long as their admission standards don't compare with their peers.

let them dish out MDs instead and then you'll just develop a tiered system of medical schools, those that were originally MD and those that were formerly DO.
Click to expand...

I don't buy it. UC Irvine was an osteopathic college for a while. It seems to be doing fine.
 
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