Should DO Schools Grant MDs?

[musafirah]

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as an applicant, the main difference i see about DO schools (besides the OMM), is that the DO schools care more about money in the admissions process. 190$ for the primaries just to apply to two DO schools? 2000$ cash deposit to keep an acceptance? no thanks.. they also have a cap on how many people get fee assistance. eff that. i applied to MDs only because its what i could afford and the fee assistance people were super helpful. eh

 

[FIREitUP]

as an applicant, the main difference i see about DO schools (besides the OMM), is that the DO schools care more about money in the admissions process. 190$ for the primaries just to apply to two DO schools? 2000$ cash deposit to keep an acceptance? no thanks.. they also have a cap on how many people get fee assistance. eff that. i applied to MDs only because its what i could afford and the fee assistance people were super helpful. eh

yeah it seems like DO schools are exploiting the fact that students are at their mercy. at the end of the day it would make more sense for the residency program to grant the degree rather than the institution, but it aint gonna happen.

 

[Bacchus]

I'm not arguing that it does matter, but if it doesn't matter whether you're an MD or DO, why does anyone strive to do well in college? Seriously, if a 3.3 and a 27 will get you into medical school (DO), what's the point in stressing while in college? Every university should tell their new pre-meds to take it easy and cruise their way into med school, no need to push yourself for all those years.

I really think it depends on your GPA. A 3.3 is hard to get at my institution. We have about 2600 undergrads, so 650 per class or so. Of that, only 116 graduated with a 3.4 or better.

 

[beachblonde]

I'm not arguing that it does matter, but if it doesn't matter whether you're an MD or DO, why does anyone strive to do well in college? Seriously, if a 3.3 and a 27 will get you into medical school (DO), what's the point in stressing while in college? Every university should tell their new pre-meds to take it easy and cruise their way into med school, no need to push yourself for all those years.

I've glanced through this thread (should be studying......sigh....) and I take issue with this particular post above the other ridiculous stuff I've seen. (note: I am a DO student)

I had a 3.3 at my top tier, academically respected college. At times I had a 3.9 GPA and others I had a 2.5. Why? It wasn't because I was "cruising." Perhaps it had something to do with multiple family members passing away while I was at school. Perhaps it also had something to do with having a chronic illness that to this day I struggle with. Maybe I had trouble adjusting to being away from home. And you know what? Screw you for suggesting that I am somehow lazier that my MD counterparts. (and FWIW, my MCAT score was high enough for me to teach with Kaplan...you do the math). I had some MD schools happy to invite me to interviews and others ignore me completely. Right now I'm a straight-A med student that I'll bet they wish they could have.

And enough with the "they're the same, oh yeah but there's OMM" crap. Dude, take two years of OMM and then you can dismiss it like it's nothing. I can do more physical diagnosis and treatment three months into school than any MD student will be able to do two years in. How does that not rock?

 

[ddiaz4]

I think DO wanting to be like MD is making it seem like DOs feel inferior to MD's. Like, "we are just as good as MD so we should be called MDs". Personally, I think DO's should feel proud that they are different from MDs! Whats te problem with educating a person that doesnt know wha a DO is when they ask. I think they should stay seperate and one should feel proud to have attained whichever degree they received!


We are all here to save lives and both DOs and MDs can do just that! 👍

 

[musafirah]

yeah it seems like DO schools are exploiting the fact that students are at their mercy. at the end of the day it would make more sense for the residency program to grant the degree rather than the institution, but it aint gonna happen.

yeah, its almost like the cost makes up for the less rigorous admission standards. but not to the extent as the carribean schools are a business or some other international schools..
i do respect the D.O. curriculum though.. and i appreciate that they put more weight on your experiences. but feeling welcomed for being a little disadvantaged by AAMC vs "oh too bad, pay our ridiculous fees" from aacom is a turn off. my bros are in DO now though because of their numbers, and they've grown to realize and appreciate the approach and opportunities they have (though they definitely aren't as cool as beachblonde in diagnosing and treating better 3 months in than a 2 year MD student ). but what some of these DO doctors get paid to teach a class is ridiculous imo. $$$

 

[b-real]

And enough with the "they're the same, oh yeah but there's OMM" crap. Dude, take two years of OMM and then you can dismiss it like it's nothing. I can do more physical diagnosis and treatment three months into school than any MD student will be able to do two years in. How does that not rock?

so what's your opinion as to whether or not there should be a unified degree? It sounds like you believe that OMM is significant enough to keep DO and MD as separate degrees.

ETA: and I seriously doubt that 3 months in, you're out-diagnosing someone who has 2 years of experience. We may not have OMM, but we're still in the clinics beginning first week of first year.

 

[womp]

Come on guys, 3% more and the nays will be filibuster proof!

 

[halekulani]

I don't buy it. UC Irvine was an osteopathic college for a while. It seems to be doing fine.

there's a difference between getting accredited and just letting DO schools hand out MD degrees. there's also a difference between one formerly DO school transitioning vs. a whole slew of DO schools all at once.

 

[WDeagle]

Who cares! Their probably wont even be such thing as physicians in 50 years. Probably just doctorbots and PA's and NP's.

 

[thepoopologist]

As long as the end result stays the same-an unrestricted medical license-then DO schools will continue to exist and there will be people willing to attend them. The minutiae being discussed here is laughable.

But sometimes SDN has a burrito and the burrito makes for an upset stomach, and MD vs DO diarrhea must come out of its anal sphincter. Well fine, more for me to study. Speaking of which, I need to study.

 

[Lacipart]

They are different degrees with different graduation requirements and different admissions requirements.

 

[ChiDO]

They are different degrees with different graduation requirements and different admissions requirements.

To get into Med School: take all the "pre-med" reqs and the MCAT
To graduate Med School: pass all your classes, pass Step 1, pass Step 2

So how are the requirements different?

 

[MSSM2013]

To get into Med School: take all the "pre-med" reqs and the MCAT
To graduate Med School: pass all your classes, pass Step 1, pass Step 2

So how are the requirements different?

well, to graduate from a DO school you take the COMLEX and are responsible to know OMM, to graduate from a MD school you take the USMLE

as of admissions, many DO schools require a DO letter, and also there is the difference in entrance stats.

 

[ChiDO]

well, to graduate from a DO school you take the COMLEX and are responsible to know OMM, to graduate from a MD school you take the USMLE

as of admissions, many DO schools require a DO letter, and also there is the difference in entrance stats.

Well, so basically you agreed with me. I said to graduate medical school you have to pass step 1 and 2, and pass your classes. You said COMLEX and USMLE; which are Step 1 and 2. If you want that to be your technicality, then so be it; unfortunately once you pass all 3 steps (+some residency), you have a medical license and can practice medicine. Doesn't matter if it's the COMLEX or USMLE.

Entrance stats, are just that, stats. Please link to me a medical school website that requires their applicants to have a super high GPA and MCAT. The only thing the websites usually state are have 90 credit hours, a bachelor degree, LORs, MCAT scores, and *maybe* a minimum GPA of like 2.75 or 3.0. In regards to that "required DO letter" (directly from 2 DO schools websites):

CCOM: Second letter from either a D.O. or an M.D.
DMU: One letter that details your exposure to medicine. This can come from a physician (D.O. or M.D.)

 

[roseglass6370]

No.

There are some hardcore DO people who don't want to be MDs, and there are some hardcore MD people who don't want to be DOs. Goodluck reconciling them.

(...and then there are people like me who would prefer MD but would be tickled to get into any good, well accredited medical school, DO or otherwise). 😛

-Brooklyn

 

[roseglass6370]

Who cares! Their probably wont even be such thing as physicians in 50 years. Probably just doctorbots and PA's and NP's.

*shudder*

 

[swamprat]

as someone who has interviewed at both MD and DO programs i will say that MD students and candidates are generally uglier and more socially awkward. i don't know if that means anything... but there you have it. 😎

Oh and they should stay separate. They require different license exams and one teaches a different philosophy + OMM. Its similar to DDS vs. DMD although not quite. I don't care which school I go to MD or DO and you must understand that these letters next to your name are quite arbitrary. It doesn't change your knowledge base - you know what you know. A MD cardiologist knows what a DO cardiologist knows. There is no practical application for any letters next to anyone's name if you think about it - it doesn't do anything it is what you learn that will be useful.

 

[MSSM2013]

Well, so basically you agreed with me. I said to graduate medical school you have to pass step 1 and 2, and pass your classes. You said COMLEX and USMLE; which are Step 1 and 2. If you want that to be your technicality, then so be it; unfortunately once you pass all 3 steps (+some residency), you have a medical license and can practice medicine. Doesn't matter if it's the COMLEX or USMLE.

Entrance stats, are just that, stats. Please link to me a medical school website that requires their applicants to have a super high GPA and MCAT. The only thing the websites usually state are have 90 credit hours, a bachelor degree, LORs, MCAT scores, and *maybe* a minimum GPA of like 2.75 or 3.0. In regards to that "required DO letter" (directly from 2 DO schools websites):

CCOM: Second letter from either a D.O. or an M.D.
DMU: One letter that details your exposure to medicine. This can come from a physician (D.O. or M.D.)

You know what? You win, alright? MD and DO admission stats are equal and USMLE and COMPLEX are the exact same exam. See you at match time.

 

[b-real]

You know what? You win, alright? MD and DO admission stats are equal and USMLE and COMPLEX are the exact same exam. See you at match time.

Man, can't even get the name of the exam right. Tough crowd

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

So because I think chiropractors are glorified masseuses

Agreed.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

I've glanced through this thread (should be studying......sigh....) and I take issue with this particular post above the other ridiculous stuff I've seen. (note: I am a DO student)

I had a 3.3 at my top tier, academically respected college. At times I had a 3.9 GPA and others I had a 2.5. Why? It wasn't because I was "cruising." Perhaps it had something to do with multiple family members passing away while I was at school. Perhaps it also had something to do with having a chronic illness that to this day I struggle with. Maybe I had trouble adjusting to being away from home. And you know what? Screw you for suggesting that I am somehow lazier that my MD counterparts. (and FWIW, my MCAT score was high enough for me to teach with Kaplan...you do the math). I had some MD schools happy to invite me to interviews and others ignore me completely. Right now I'm a straight-A med student that I'll bet they wish they could have.

And enough with the "they're the same, oh yeah but there's OMM" crap. Dude, take two years of OMM and then you can dismiss it like it's nothing. I can do more physical diagnosis and treatment three months into school than any MD student will be able to do two years in. How does that not rock?

So you were sick and a bunch of family died during your undergrad years. That's a pretty good reason to have a lower GPA and I would never argue that it isn't. I was saying that for most students, and at most universities, a 3.3 does not take much effort. Sure you'll have to study a little and put forward a little effort, but nowhere near what you'll need to do to maintain a 3.8+. No need to stress during your years in undergrad when both degrees (MD and DO) have the same weight.

And please stop crying over your keyboard.

 

[MSSM2013]

Man, can't even get the name of the exam right. Tough crowd

why the hell do I even NEED to know the name of DO licensing exam? If I am ever in charge of an allopathic residency, I won't look at anything other than the USMLE.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

as someone who has interviewed at both MD and DO programs i will say that MD students and candidates are generally uglier and more socially awkward. i don't know if that means anything... but there you have it. 😎

Lol, so it's the same as undergrad. If you want to pick up chicks in undergrad you definitely don't go looking on the science side of campus. Head over to the education/sociology/business side of campus. The hotness level goes WAY up.

You can also watch the trend work itself out as you move into harder science courses. In the early lower level courses there are tons of hot women. In the upper level courses....not so much.

 

[fattymangox03]

I think DO wanting to be like MD is making it seem like DOs feel inferior to MD's. Like, "we are just as good as MD so we should be called MDs". Personally, I think DO's should feel proud that they are different from MDs! Whats te problem with educating a person that doesnt know wha a DO is when they ask. I think they should stay seperate and one should feel proud to have attained whichever degree they received!


We are all here to save lives and both DOs and MDs can do just that! 👍

👍👍👍

 

[ensuii]

no one particularly cares what medical students think either, but clearly that's not stopping you

Lol, really?

 

[iatros]

I'm sorry, but to me me this sounds the same as saying "If you want a DDS work your way into a DDS school. DMDs are not DDSs"

i wonder if pre DDS students and pre DMD students have such exciting pissing contests.

 

[oyoy]

How about you both stop caring about who's d1ck curves to the right and who's curves to the left!!?? lol

 

[c4e]

i wonder if pre DDS students and pre DMD students have such exciting pissing contests.

They don't. DDS = DMD. The only difference is in marketing purposes.

 

[icalz]

Lol, so it's the same as undergrad. If you want to pick up chicks in undergrad you definitely don't go looking on the science side of campus. Head over to the education/sociology/business side of campus. The hotness level goes WAY up.

You can also watch the trend work itself out as you move into harder science courses. In the early lower level courses there are tons of hot women. In the upper level courses....not so much.

This is true on my campus as well...I guess it's a universal law (sigh), or some institutional conspiracy. Each semester my female premeds become more and more, um, plain

My worst fears are that I'll enter med school and the women will be 👎thumbdown

 

[halekulani]

OP: what exactly is the purpose of having DOs change to MD anyways?

 

[123165]

I could care less if they combine or not.

For what it's worth, DO stats are steadily on the rise. Say what you will, but DO schools still get plenty more applicants than spots. You all act like anyone can get into an osteopathic medical school.

As for a switch creating a "tiered" grouping of medical schools, does that not already exist?

You all are pretending that, if there was a combination, there would not be a single, unified governing board, with accreditation requirements which must be met by all schools. Do you think that all of a sudden your degree would be less valuable because DO's would pollute your good name? The amazing ignorance of the premed world.

All I want is for the AOA to start some marketing for DO's. I cannot believe that they (AOA) stand by while so many people have no clue what a DO is.

 

[JaggerPlate]

All I want is for the AOA to start some marketing for DO's. I cannot believe that they (AOA) stand by while so many people have no clue what a DO is.

I started thinking about this recently when someone said Osteopathic Medicine has essentially been around for over a hundred years and is still quite unknown. True, but as of right now, DOs only represent like 6 % of practicing physicians, but every 1 out of 5 students in medical school is attending a DO school. Meaning that in the future, the numbers will be at least 20% DOs. Granted, this is what I've heard and I don't have numbers in front of me, but if this is all true ... 20 + % of the physician workforce as DOs should do some PR in and of itself.

 

[Dissected]

This is true on my campus as well...I guess it's a universal law (sigh), or some institutional conspiracy. Each semester my female premeds become more and more, um, plain

My worst fears are that I'll enter med school and the women will be 👎thumbdown

Don't fret. The chicks in my class are 😍

AND we have a DPT program.....😉

I'm not complaining. Maybe this DO thing does have its perks

 

[Old Grunt]

I think historically DOs have been resistant to give up their degree and adapt the MD. It's their degree due to their hard work, so let them make the decision. Why this would even matter to allopathic medical students or pre-meds who want to be allopathic is beyond me.

I am at an MD school, but applied broadly to both. I read up on the whole "difference" in philosophy that DO schools tout. I used to think there was some merit to it, but I no longer do. Medicine is medicine. Both MDs and DOs are treating the "whole body".

Other than that, when it comes to actual practise, I think the differences basically boil down to OMT and historical.

That's about it.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Don't fret. The chicks in my class are 😍

AND we have a DPT program.....😉

I'm not complaining. Maybe this DO thing does have its perks

The cure for unattractive medical students is attending Nova Southeastern University. They have all kinds of PT, OD, etc programs with extremely good looking people, and their undergrad campus looks like some sort of ambercrombie advertisement. I seriously didn't see one unattractive girl or guy who didn't look like an athlete on the undergrad campus.

 

[Just Joshin]

I'm not arguing that it does matter, but if it doesn't matter whether you're an MD or DO, why does anyone strive to do well in college? Seriously, if a 3.3 and a 27 will get you into medical school (DO), what's the point in stressing while in college? Every university should tell their new pre-meds to take it easy and cruise their way into med school, no need to push yourself for all those years.

Obviously, you've never picked up an MSAR. There are some MD schools with MCAT averages around 27.

 

[Just Joshin]

I thought you had to be black for Meharry, no?

No. A white acquaintance of mine graduated from there.

 

[b-real]

Obviously, you've never picked up an MSAR. There are some MD schools with MCAT averages around 27.

More like an exception than a rule.

 

[JaggerPlate]

More like an exception than a rule.

Sound logic.

 

[halekulani]

I could care less if they combine or not.

For what it's worth, DO stats are steadily on the rise. Say what you will, but DO schools still get plenty more applicants than spots. You all act like anyone can get into an osteopathic medical school.

As for a switch creating a "tiered" grouping of medical schools, does that not already exist?

You all are pretending that, if there was a combination, there would not be a single, unified governing board, with accreditation requirements which must be met by all schools. Do you think that all of a sudden your degree would be less valuable because DO's would pollute your good name? The amazing ignorance of the premed world.

All I want is for the AOA to start some marketing for DO's. I cannot believe that they (AOA) stand by while so many people have no clue what a DO is.

while medical schools are somewhat tiered, people are fortunate just to get a single acceptance.

as far as DO schools go, they along with caribbean options are already considered the next tier. whether they are above or below caribbean schools is heavily debated, but that's not really the point. all 3 options produce physicians, so i guess the only issue is why people are in a hissy fit about their current badge. is a bachelor of arts in biology is different than a bachelor of science in biology? honestly, they are the same damn thing. one came from a liberal arts school and one came from a university. being that they are the same, it doesn't really matter of it is an art/science degree so why does it matter?

nobody says adding the DO schools to MD would pollute the name. the real question is why would DOs demand to be recognized as MDs rather than DOs in the first place?

 

[JaggerPlate]

while medical schools are somewhat tiered, people are fortunate just to get a single acceptance.

as far as DO schools go, they along with caribbean options are already considered the next tier. whether they are above or below caribbean schools is heavily debated, but that's not really the point. all 3 options produce physicians, so i guess the only issue is why people are in a hissy fit about their current badge. is a bachelor of arts in biology is different than a bachelor of science in biology? honestly, they are the same damn thing. one came from a liberal arts school and one came from a university. being that they are the same, it doesn't really matter of it is an art/science degree so why does it matter?

nobody says adding the DO schools to MD would pollute the name. the real question is why would DOs demand to be recognized as MDs rather than DOs in the first place?

1. If you are trying to say DO schools are below Caribbean MD schools, then you're seriously a *****. Go look up the post in this thread showing DO match into ACGME (not mentioning the AOA option) vs Caribbean matching. Look at scores, attrition rates, etc.

2. I didn't see a DO start this thread, nor have I seen one the entire time in this thread asking for it to be changed. Ask any DO attending if they give two craps. I'll give you a million dollars if you find one who cares/doesn't ask you to leave them alone so they can see their patients.

 

[halekulani]

1. If you are trying to say DO schools are below Caribbean MD schools, then you're seriously a *****. Go look up the post in this thread showing DO match into ACGME (not mentioning the AOA option) vs Caribbean matching. Look at scores, attrition rates, etc.

2. I didn't see a DO start this thread, nor have I seen one the entire time in this thread asking for it to be changed. Ask any DO attending if they give two craps. I'll give you a million dollars if you find one who cares/doesn't ask you to leave them alone so they can see their patients.

aggressive are we? you're asking the same damn questions i am yet you've made a bunch of assumptions like i said a DO asked for an MD or caribs are better than DOs. read a bit before assuming i'm attacking anyone.

1....and i'm not trying to say that. clear?
wait
maybe i should spell everything out for you so you don't get riled up over nothing

OP: what exactly is the purpose of having DOs change to MD anyways?

i posted this question not too far above my previous post. it does not attack DOs at all.

all 3 options produce physicians

this is my stance
but hey if you think i'm a jerk who looks down on DOs go ahead. but i'll let you know it's unjustified.

i don't look down on either caribs or DOs, but i find it hilarious that it is acceptable to you to clearly rank one above the other. in fact, you almost seem insulted at the notion that a DO would be put below a carib school. are carib schools incapable of giving adequate medical training? plenty of fine doctors come from both; i really dont see a difference.

2. agreed. i already posed the question to the OP about why anyone would want a change from DO to MD to begin with and got zero responses.

 

[JaggerPlate]

aggressive are we? you're asking the same damn questions i am yet you've made a bunch of assumptions like i said a DO asked for an MD or caribs are better than DOs. read a bit before assuming i'm attacking anyone.

1....and i'm not trying to say that. clear?
wait
maybe i should spell everything out for you so you don't get riled up over nothing


i posted this question not too far above my previous post. it does not attack DOs at all.


this is my stance
but hey if you think i'm a jerk who looks down on DOs go ahead. but i'll let you know it's unjustified.

i don't look down on either caribs or DOs, but i find it hilarious that it is acceptable to you to clearly rank one above the other. in fact, you almost seem insulted at the notion that a DO would be put below a carib school. are carib schools incapable of giving adequate medical training? plenty of fine doctors come from both; i really dont see a difference.

2. agreed. i already posed the question to the OP about why anyone would want a change from DO to MD to begin with and got zero responses.

Dude, I seriously cannot respond to this. Your post is completely incoherent. Like no joking at all. I do not get what you are trying to say and your grasp on the written word is a bit astonishing. Sorry.

 

[halekulani]

1. If you are trying to say DO schools are below Caribbean MD schools, then you're seriously a *****. Go look up the post in this thread showing DO match into ACGME (not mentioning the AOA option) vs Caribbean matching. Look at scores, attrition rates, etc.

2. I didn't see a DO start this thread, nor have I seen one the entire time in this thread asking for it to be changed. Ask any DO attending if they give two craps. I'll give you a million dollars if you find one who cares/doesn't ask you to leave them alone so they can see their patients.

1. no, i'm not trying to say that. so what does that make me now? are you trying to prove something with this?

2. i haven't seen a DO ask for it either. but that's not the point and the question still stands. the OP posed a question, "should DO schools grant MDs?" and i'm asking why he/she believes they are not satisfied with their current DO status

 

[JaggerPlate]

1. no, i'm not trying to say that. so what does that make me now? are you trying to prove something with this?

I am glad you are not saying that. What you did say was that the fact is heavily debated. I can say right now/end the debate: DO >> Caribbean MD. Doneski ... check the ACGME match rates above in the thread (keeping in mind they don't take AOA residencies into account). What does that make you??? I don't know? Someone I misunderstood?? I don't know. Your general sentence structure still confuses me.

2. i haven't seen a DO ask for it either. but that's not the point and the question still stands. the OP posed a question, "should DO schools grant MDs?" and i'm asking why he/she believes they are not satisfied with their current DO status

No the OP didn't pose a good question because the OP is not a DO. The OP is a pre-allo, who has nothing to do with DOs. So it's not a good question. Should dogs be allowed to walk on two legs in public??? I don't know, that's a stupid ass question because I'm not a dog. What the hell does it matter what he/she believes??? THEY AREN'T a DO????? Until a ****ing DO starts a thread saying 'I am not satisfied with my current status' and other DOs come in the thread and agree, then it isn't a good/relevant question. It's a stupid pre-med being a stupid pre-med. Trying to troll, flame, cut loose on a Friday night, whatever.

 

[dantt]

the MD person asked about clincial experiences in year 1 and 2. I have yet to find a MD school that has clinical portion that are precepted by NPs.

I attend an MD school where many clinical rotations are precepted by NPs...Nice people but most students feel a bit ripped off.

 

[MSSM2013]

I attend an MD school where many clinical rotations are precepted by NPs...Nice people but most students feel a bit ripped off.

wow, that's really messed up.

 

[J1515]

I started thinking about this recently when someone said Osteopathic Medicine has essentially been around for over a hundred years and is still quite unknown.

DOs have not been considered 'Doctors' or 'MD equals' for all of those hundred years.

 

[Eyti]

I think that the separation of medical education may very well be a critical component of our culture as physicians in the future. It produces greater diversity.
The way I view the degree from a personal context is that its not the degree I personally want for myself. I am going to obtain an MD, but if you want to go for a DO that's absolutely fine. I can't accept your motivation for the DO, the same way you can't accept my motivation for the MD. There's nothing wrong with that. Its how the world must work. Be happy with yourself and be accepting of others who have found their own way.