Should I apply DO?

[PopeKnope23]

Chem (biomolec sci emphasis) major, Spanish minor
3.988 GPA with 107 credits
Taking MCAT in May.
Estimated hours of EC's by the time I apply:
-Nonclinical
120 hours volunteering in a homeless shelter
Executive board of student honors association for 2 years
Teaching violin lessons (free of charge) to family friends' children
-Clinical
90 hours combined volunteering in free clinic and ER
50 hours physician shadowing, including internal med (shadowed my dad actually, is that okay?), radiologist (DO), peds cardiology, peds pulmonologist, peds GI, anesthesiology (DO)
-Work
Business office assistant in retina specialist office since 2015
Pharmacy tech
Student assistant in COLS dean's office
Tutor for calc I, calc II, gen chem I and II, and spanish

I am applying MD, but I've began researching DO schools after shadowing a DO. Do you guys think I'd be successful if applying DO? I assume my MCAT is going to be very average, as I suck at standardized tests. My target score is 509. What should I keep in mind?

Thanks!!

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[osteodoc7]

Yeh

 

[Magus5454]

Hard to say without a MCAT score but if you get a 509(how were your practice tests?) You should be good for MD and in excellent position for most DO schools

 

[fldoctorgirl]

You need an MCAT score before we can tell you this. I also had an > average GPA (3.8+) when applying, but had a borderline MCAT so I decided to apply to both. Once you get your score, you can evaluate what you should do next. In any case, if you want to be on the safe side and avoid a gap year, throwing in a few DO schools doesn't hurt.

 

[PopeKnope23]

You need an MCAT score before we can tell you this. I also had an > average GPA (3.8+) when applying, but had a borderline MCAT so I decided to apply to both. Once you get your score, you can evaluate what you should do next. In any case, if you want to be on the safe side and avoid a gap year, throwing in a few DO schools doesn't hurt.

Thank you for the advice! Unfortunately, I'm graduating in 3 years and am a little behind schedule, so I can't take the MCAT til mid-May, meaning I won't get back my score til like mid-June. I know apps for DO open up for submission early May, so will this hurt me if I can't submit til mid to late June?

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Thank you for the advice! Unfortunately, I'm graduating in 3 years and am a little behind schedule, so I can't take the MCAT til mid-May, meaning I won't get back my score til like mid-June. I know apps for DO open up for submission early May, so will this hurt me if I can't submit til mid to late June?

I'm also graduating in 3 years (this May) and took the MCAT last May! You can technically submit your apps and just update them with your MCAT score when you get it (you have to send your score report to AACOMAS through the app portal, whereas AMCAS will automatically get it). But, it won't hurt you at all to apply mid-June...that's what I did. The DO cycle is much longer.

 

[PopeKnope23]

I'm also graduating in 3 years (this May) and took the MCAT last May! You can technically submit your apps and just update them with your MCAT score when you get it (you have to send your score report to AACOMAS through the app portal, whereas AMCAS will automatically get it). But, it won't hurt you at all to apply mid-June...that's what I did. The DO cycle is much longer.

It's so rare to find a fellow premed graduating in 3 years! Congrats gf! So do you recommend I submit my DO app before my score comes around, then just add it in? That's not too risky? Do you recommend I do that for MD as well? Or totally wait til I get my score to submit to AMCAS?

 

[Goro]

Chem (biomolec sci emphasis) major, Spanish minor
3.988 GPA with 107 credits
Taking MCAT in May.
Estimated hours of EC's by the time I apply:
-Nonclinical
120 hours volunteering in a homeless shelter
Executive board of student honors association for 2 years
Teaching violin lessons (free of charge) to family friends' children
-Clinical
90 hours combined volunteering in free clinic and ER
50 hours physician shadowing, including internal med (shadowed my dad actually, is that okay?), radiologist (DO), peds cardiology, peds pulmonologist, peds GI, anesthesiology (DO)
-Work
Business office assistant in retina specialist office since 2015
Pharmacy tech
Student assistant in COLS dean's office
Tutor for calc I, calc II, gen chem I and II, and spanish

I am applying MD, but I've began researching DO schools after shadowing a DO. Do you guys think I'd be successful if applying DO? I assume my MCAT is going to be very average, as I suck at standardized tests. My target score is 509. What should I keep in mind?

Thanks!!

Ask us once you get your MCAT score

 

[fldoctorgirl]

It's so rare to find a fellow premed graduating in 3 years! Congrats gf! So do you recommend I submit my DO app before my score comes around, then just add it in? That's not too risky? Do you recommend I do that for MD as well? Or totally wait til I get my score to submit to AMCAS?

I submitted to a throwaway school on AMCAS before getting my score so that my application could be verified while I was waiting-- at peak submission time, verification can take up to a month so I wanted to have it done. I submitted to a state school, FSU, because their median MCAT is a 505 and I was confident I would score at least that or higher. If you don't have a state school like that, choose some random school that you know you'll never attend...so, you can choose Harvard or something if you know you realistically won't ever score high enough for them, or choose an OOS school that barely has any OOS matriculants, etc. This way, you can get verified while you wait for your MCAT score. Once you have the score, you can build a more realistic school list and add those onto AMCAS. Your app will already be verified by then, so it will get transmitted to these schools as soon as you add them. I would recommend using SDN (particularly adcoms, like Goro above) to help you build your school list, because I've noticed one of the biggest reasons people go through a cycle empty-handed is because of a poor school list.

If you're going to be taking the MCAT in May, there's no need to submit a DO app until you have your score. Verification goes relatively fast for DO apps (I think mine was done on the same day I submitted). If you feel confident in your MD app, you can throw in some DO apps to the "better" schools just to be safe. If you end up doing really well, you don't need to bother. If you end up being a borderline applicant, you can again consult SDN to build a good school list.

 

[bioboy23]

(shadowed my dad actually, is that okay?)

Shadowing family should not be listed. Idk if @HomeSkool looks at the DO threads, but he would say the same thing. It just came up last week somewhere else.

 

[68PGunner]

Work on that MCAT hard... don’t apply to DO unless you’re comfortable w/ being slotted into primary care. Good DOs will send 50% of their students to primary care while new DOs will send 70-80% of their students to primary care.

 

[HomeSkool]

Shadowing family should not be listed. Idk if @HomeSkool looks at the DO threads, but he would say the same thing. It just came up last week somewhere else.

Tag me and I'll come on down!

OP, shadowing family doesn't count. It's a wonderful way to get some exposure and maybe think about potential specialties. But Take Your Child To Work Day doesn't go on your med school application.

Ditto for LORs from family members.

 

[PopeKnope23]

Tag me and I'll come on down!

OP, shadowing family doesn't count. It's a wonderful way to get some exposure and maybe think about potential specialties. But Take Your Child To Work Day doesn't go on your med school application.

Ditto for LORs from family members.

So the 10 hours of primary care shadowing doesn't count? Ahhhh! Can I still list it in my hours but not list my dad as a contact?

 

[PopeKnope23]

I submitted to a throwaway school on AMCAS before getting my score so that my application could be verified while I was waiting-- at peak submission time, verification can take up to a month so I wanted to have it done. I submitted to a state school, FSU, because their median MCAT is a 505 and I was confident I would score at least that or higher. If you don't have a state school like that, choose some random school that you know you'll never attend...so, you can choose Harvard or something if you know you realistically won't ever score high enough for them, or choose an OOS school that barely has any OOS matriculants, etc. This way, you can get verified while you wait for your MCAT score. Once you have the score, you can build a more realistic school list and add those onto AMCAS. Your app will already be verified by then, so it will get transmitted to these schools as soon as you add them. I would recommend using SDN (particularly adcoms, like Goro above) to help you build your school list, because I've noticed one of the biggest reasons people go through a cycle empty-handed is because of a poor school list.

If you're going to be taking the MCAT in May, there's no need to submit a DO app until you have your score. Verification goes relatively fast for DO apps (I think mine was done on the same day I submitted). If you feel confident in your MD app, you can throw in some DO apps to the "better" schools just to be safe. If you end up doing really well, you don't need to bother. If you end up being a borderline applicant, you can again consult SDN to build a good school list.

That makes a lot of sense, thank you! It's been bugging me trying to figure out how and when to submit based on when I'm taking the MCAT.
I appreciate all your help!

 

[HomeSkool]

So the 10 hours of primary care shadowing doesn't count? Ahhhh! Can I still list it in my hours but not list my dad as a contact?

Only if you lack integrity and want your app to go right into the shredder when you get caught. Lies of omission are still lies.

In the bright side, it's only ten hours (as opposed to, like, fifty), and I bet your dad can set you up with a primary care colleague very easily.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using SDN mobile

 

[PopeKnope23]

Only if you lack integrity and want your app to go right into the shredder when you get caught. Lies of omission are still lies.

In the bright side, it's only ten hours (as opposed to, like, fifty), and I bet your dad can set you up with a primary colleague very easily.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using SDN mobile

Alright, understood! Thank you. I will work on getting in with another primary asap.

 

[bioboy23]

Alright, understood! Thank you. I will work on getting in with another primary asap.

Just shadow a DO and kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Especially if you’re planning on applying to just a couple of DO schools. Then if you see any OMM in the clinic, you’ll be able to have something to use for “why DO.”

 

[PopeKnope23]

Just shadow a DO and kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Especially if you’re planning on applying to just a couple of DO schools. Then if you see any OMM in the clinic, you’ll be able to have something to use for “why DO.”

Next week I actually have plans to shadow a DO anesthesiologist and might get in with 2 DO orthopedic surgeons (a lot of docs around here are DOs). Will MD schools wonder why I'm shadowing so much DO? It just so happens that the people my dad talked to are DO, it wasn't specifically planned that way.

And of course, we thought shadowing family members was fine, so he didn't talk to any primary care docs. Most of our primaries are MDs so I'm assuming in the end, I'll have primary care MD and lots of specialty DOs (have also shadowed a DO radiologist).

 

[PopeKnope23]

Another general question--is it worth asking people I've shadowed for LORs? It seems the DO schools like DO LORs, but MD schools haven't specified that too much.

 

[JDogtor]

We cannot really say for MCAT has a huge contribution to your chances of scoring secondaries/II for DO and MD med schools. I had pretty decent extracurriculars, clinical experience, and a GPA of 3.9. However, due to my average MCAT of 503 I was able to obtain a total of around 20 secondaries for both MD and DO and only 4 II for DO schools.

 

[bioboy23]

We have lots of DOs in my city too! I don’t think it’ll matter much to MD schools in terms of shadowing MD/DO, especially since you have a good mix of both.

@Goro can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he says shadowing letters are generally weak letters. But I think having at least one physician letter is a really good idea. Just ask the one you click with the most if they think they can write you a “GOOD letter of recommendation.”

*I am only a premed, so I’m pretty much just taking things I’ve read on here from our more experienced friends.

 

[PopeKnope23]

Thank you for the advice, nonetheless! We'll see what Goro thinks of this.

 

[Goro]

Another general question--is it worth asking people I've shadowed for LORs? It seems the DO schools like DO LORs, but MD schools haven't specified that too much.

There are only a few MD schools that require a clinician LOR, so it's not worth bothering for them. DO schools will need one, and some require a DO LOR. For the others (like mine). a DO lOR always helps, but having an MD LOR won't hurt, unless you live next door to a DO school.

 

[surfguy84]

Avoid DO school if at all possible. Not that you won't get a good education or won't be a great doctor someday, just that it makes everything harder. I'm a third year DO student, great board scores, class rank, etc. and I'm still going to get passed over for MD students who have performed significantly worse than me in the match simply because they did better in undergrad and got into an MD school. Sucks, but it is what it is.

 

[jab12]

Avoid DO school if at all possible. Not that you won't get a good education or won't be a great doctor someday, just that it makes everything harder. I'm a third year DO student, great board scores, class rank, etc. and I'm still going to get passed over for MD students who have performed significantly worse than me in the match simply because they did better in undergrad and got into an MD school. Sucks, but it is what it is.

What are you talking about? You sound absolutely ridiculous, stop turning people away from a DO education because you chose not to do your research before starting med school. The entire world knows not to go DO if you planned on specializing in something “highly” competitive (i.e Derm, etc). DOs have almost all the options to specialize that MDs do except for a few that you should’ve known about before starting school. There’s even plenty of DOs entering gen surgery and further specializing...your mistake to not go the MD route is your own. Not someone else’s as most others are quite happy with their choice in becoming DOs. Good luck with whatever you’re trying to match in.

 

[surfguy84]

What are you talking about? You sound absolutely ridiculous, stop turning people away from a DO education because you chose not to do your research before starting med school. The entire world knows not to go DO if you planned on specializing in something “highly” competitive (i.e Derm, etc). DOs have almost all the options to specialize that MDs do except for a few that you should’ve known about before starting school. There’s even plenty of DOs entering gen surgery and further specializing...your mistake to not go the MD route is your own. Not someone else’s as most others are quite happy with their choice in becoming DOs. Good luck with whatever you’re trying to match in.

I have no idea what stage of this journey you're in, but you should re-read what I said. I never said DO's do not have the options to specialize in specific fields - I said going DO makes it harder.

I'm M3, shooting for EM (a competitive field but certainly not derm or IR), and have done a lot of research on the topic. I am an above average EM applicant, for MD or DO programs. There are roughly 80 programs who do not have a DO (as far as I am aware), many of these are widely regarded as DO unfriendly. There are program directors who have stated, on this very website, that a DO applicant needs a higher score to be held comparable to an MD applicant. So, we're talking about fewer programs willing to take an applicant if they are DO and others requiring higher score for equal footing. Please, tell me how that doesn't make things harder?

You're very obviously misunderstanding what I said. I said HARDER. You say "DOs have almost all the options to specialize that MDs do".....well, I never said they didnt. Being a DO is going to make your match harder, plain and simple. So I'll say it again, if you can avoid DO, you should. No sense in making an already hard road even harder.

 

[PopeKnope23]

What are you talking about? You sound absolutely ridiculous, stop turning people away from a DO education because you chose not to do your research before starting med school. The entire world knows not to go DO if you planned on specializing in something “highly” competitive (i.e Derm, etc). DOs have almost all the options to specialize that MDs do except for a few that you should’ve known about before starting school. There’s even plenty of DOs entering gen surgery and further specializing...your mistake to not go the MD route is your own. Not someone else’s as most others are quite happy with their choice in becoming DOs. Good luck with whatever you’re trying to match in.

I agree with you. The reason I’ve actually begun to consider DO as an alternative option is because some of the BEST docs my dad knows are DOs and HIGHLY specialized. I shadowed a DO radiologist, and will be shadowing a DO orthopedic surgeon next week. We also have a very good DO anastesiologist as well. It seems like if you work hard and don’t mind giving up top top specialities, like derm as you said, you can do just fine. Actually, more than fine. Theyre thriving.

 

[PopeKnope23]

I have no idea what stage of this journey you're in, but you should re-read what I said. I never said DO's do not have the options to specialize in specific fields - I said going DO makes it harder.

I'm M3, shooting for EM (a competitive field but certainly not derm or IR), and have done a lot of research on the topic. I am an above average EM applicant, for MD or DO programs. There are roughly 40 programs who do not have a DO, many of these are widely regarded as DO unfriendly. There are program directors who have stated, on this very website, that a DO applicant needs a higher score to be held comparable to an MD applicant. So, we're talking about fewer programs willing to take an applicant if they are DO and others requiring higher score for equal footing. Please, tell me how that doesn't make things harder?

You're very obviously misunderstanding what I read. I said HARDER. You say "DOs have almost all the options to specialize that MDs do".....well, I never said they didnt. Being a DO is going to make your match harder, plain and simple. So I'll say it again, if you can avoid DO, you should. No sense in making an already hard road even harder.

I see what youre saying. Valid points, I’m sure. I just think if I want to avoid a gap year if I fail to be accepted to MD, DO will still make me a doctor in the end. But that’s true. It will be difficult.

 

[surfguy84]

I see what youre saying. Valid points, I’m sure. I just think if I want to avoid a gap year if I fail to be accepted to MD, DO will still make me a doctor in the end. But that’s true. It will be difficult.

Absolutely, DO is a great option. I'm totally content with my decision to go DO. It just sucks when you know you've worked so hard to become a really solid applicant and you're automatically going to get passed over because of a couple letters after your name. I'd love to stay in California for residnecy but the fact I'm DO is going to make it harder to do so, that's all.

That said, gap years can be an amazing idea - don't feel you need to rush into med school. I didn't transition right away and it was one of the best decisions I'd ever made. Just something to consider.

 

[sab3156]

What are you talking about? You sound absolutely ridiculous, stop turning people away from a DO education because you chose not to do your research before starting med school. The entire world knows not to go DO if you planned on specializing in something “highly” competitive (i.e Derm, etc). DOs have almost all the options to specialize that MDs do except for a few that you should’ve known about before starting school. There’s even plenty of DOs entering gen surgery and further specializing...your mistake to not go the MD route is your own. Not someone else’s as most others are quite happy with their choice in becoming DOs. Good luck with whatever you’re trying to match in.

You are highly mistaken. DOs won't get looked at by the vast majority of programs in any moderate to highly competitive specialty.It's ridiculous to push the idea that DOs have "almost all the options to specialize" relative to MDs. DOs have trouble matching into even mid tier ACGME academic IM programs. DOs have a less than 50% match rate into General Surgery, and that's not even a competitive specialty by MD standards. As a DO, your application to the majority of programs in many specialties (not even competitive ones) will be thrown into the garbage and never looked at further. Go look at DO match lists and compare that to any MD match list, then try to honestly say again that DOs have "almost" all the same options (actually that's not really good evidence, just go look at PD surveys and match data). It's not even close, and to even imply that is dishonest.

The OP (with their high GPA) should focus on getting a solid MCAT score and focus on getting into an MD school. There is no reason to talk about DO schools unless the OP bombs the MCAT.

 

[PopeKnope23]

You are highly mistaken. DOs won't get looked at by the vast majority of programs in any moderate to highly competitive specialty.It's ridiculous to push the idea that DOs have "almost all the options to specialize" relative to MDs. DOs have trouble matching into even mid tier ACGME academic IM programs. DOs have a less than 50% match rate into General Surgery, and that's not even a competitive specialty by MD standards. As a DO, your application to the majority of programs in many specialties (not even competitive ones) will be thrown into the garbage and never looked at further. Go look at DO match lists and compare that to any MD match list, then try to honestly say again that DOs have "almost" all the same options (actually that's not really good evidence, just go look at PD surveys and match data). It's not even close, and to even imply that is dishonest.

The OP (with their high GPA) should focus on getting a solid MCAT score and focus on getting into an MD school. There is no reason to talk about DO schools unless the OP bombs the MCAT.

Based on my gpa and EC’s, what would you think is the minimum mcat score thatd be safe to apply only MD and not DO? My target score is 509-510, so I just want a ballpark.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Based on my gpa and EC’s, what would you think is the minimum mcat score thatd be safe to apply only MD and not DO? My target score is 509-510, so I just want a ballpark.

Honestly, admissions is so competitive now I wouldn't apply only MD unless you score 512+. It's just such a gamble and I wouldn't be able to deal with that uncertainty, but that's a personal decision.

What state are you from? If you're from a "lucky" state, you might be okay with 510.

 

[PopeKnope23]

Honestly, admissions is so competitive now I wouldn't apply only MD unless you score 512+. It's just such a gamble and I wouldn't be able to deal with that uncertainty, but that's a personal decision.

What state are you from? If you're from a "lucky" state, you might be okay with 510.

I’m from WI.. all we got is UW and MCW. great schools that like wisco residents, but still competitive af.

 

[sab3156]

Based on my gpa and EC’s, what would you think is the minimum mcat score thatd be safe to apply only MD and not DO? My target score is 509-510, so I just want a ballpark.

I think you should just focus on getting as high of a score as you possibly can. Seriously, your GPA is higher than the average matriculant to any medical school in the country. If you go to a very good undergraduate school, the name of your school (whether people believe it or not) will also probably help carry you in the admissions process. If not, don't worry about it further.

I highly suggest getting involved in research (whether clinical or bench) under a known PI, maybe at University of Wisconsin (I am assuming you are close to it?). In fact, if you take the MCAT and do well, and spend this year doing research and apply in 2019 you will undoubtedly get into a really great MD school (assuming you do well on the MCAT - don't just aim for average, you really should try and kill this exam, and your goal should always be 100%). If time is a factor for you and you want to apply immediately after your MCAT, you still can (though you may be looked unfavorably upon by research heavy schools). I gave the same advice to a sibling of mine and he is doing heavy research in a well known lab and now will probably be able to get into a top 10 or 20 school, and on top of that he has made powerful connections that will help him for residency. It is always advisable to take the time to get to the best spot you can.

If you don't do that well on the MCAT, then you should still apply to MD schools and just add some of the older and more established DO schools in there. But like I said, a lot of this is hypothetical until you get the MCAT score back in June or whenever. And I really think you're selling yourself short without aiming high and without aiming to do research.

 

[PopeKnope23]

I think you should just focus on getting as high of a score as you possibly can. Seriously, your GPA is higher than the average matriculant to any medical school in the country. If you go to a very good undergraduate school, the name of your school (whether people believe it or not) will also probably help carry you in the admissions process. If not, don't worry about it further.

I highly suggest getting involved in research (whether clinical or bench) under a known PI, maybe at University of Wisconsin (I am assuming you are close to it?). In fact, if you take the MCAT and do well, and spend this year doing research and apply in 2019 you will undoubtedly get into a really great MD school (assuming you do well on the MCAT - don't just aim for average, you really should try and kill this exam, and your goal should always be 100%). If time is a factor for you and you want to apply immediately after your MCAT, you still can (though you may be looked unfavorably upon by research heavy schools). I gave the same advice to a sibling of mine and he is doing heavy research in a well known lab and now will probably be able to get into a top 10 or 20 school, and on top of that he has made powerful connections that will help him for residency. It is always advisable to take the time to get to the best spot you can.

If you don't do that well on the MCAT, then you should still apply to MD schools and just add some of the older and more established DO schools in there. But like I said, a lot of this is hypothetical until you get the MCAT score back in June or whenever. And I really think you're selling yourself short without aiming high and without aiming to do research.

I really appreciate all your fantastic advice! It's getting me to think a lot about my goals. I gotta admit, I never EVER aim for just average in life, which is one of the reasons, I believe, that my gpa is so high. However, I've always been very average in terms of standardized tests. I took both the ACT and SAT without studying for one minute, and scored around the 85th percentiles for both, which is good and all, but my science scores were lower than that. I think I just have that mindset that there's no way in the world I can have an outstanding MCAT. But with that being said, I've been studying since December and am really putting my all into it this time, unlike for the ACT.

Also, I truthfully don't have my sights set on a top 10 or 20 MD school. I appreciate you thinking I have the ability to do so given a good mcat and research, but I've never been into research that much, and I'm more interested in admitting into a med school that focuses on communities and the underserved (I've found a love for that while volunteering at a free clinic in town) rather than research (not saying those top 10 research schools don't do that, but you know what I mean!). I've been building my extremely hypothetical school list based on their emphasis on community service and capping the median mcat score at 512. But who knows what will happen. Also, I will be doing an honors thesis for my senior year, which will likely involve research, but there's no way I can get involved in something before I apply this June. I guess schools won't really ever find out about that thesis... which is unfortunate.

 

[PopeKnope23]

Also, to add, I'm not at a prestigious undergrad by any means. I'm at one of the more respected UW schools in WI (not madison, lol), but I'm betting my GPA won't turn that many heads around the country because my school isn't that impressive :/

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Honestly, no one can tell you until we have your score. Like I said, my GPA is above the median for every single school in the country. It doesn't matter if you don't have the MCAT score to match, though.

Just focus on doing your best and reevaluate once you have a score. Don't stress out too much about where to apply yet. Good luck!

 

[sab3156]

I'm more interested in admitting into a med school that focuses on communities

I would actually argue that no matter what, you should aim to get into the best medical school you can. You can always do community work regardless of the medical school you go to. When it comes to residency and fellowship, however, you will see that the medical world is heavily biased. Pedigree matters, depending on what you want to do. But of course, it is up to you where you want to go and where you will be happiest.